LUKE 16:19-31

[LORRAINE777]

 :Chinscratch:Hi Tentmaker! This is my first post and I would love if you would please give some insight into Lazarus and the rich man. I know this is a parable but I cannot get past the reference to Hell and the description by Jesus. Can someone please make sense of this for me? I totally agree with the No Hell by the way. Thanks

[jabcat]

Hi Lorraine.  Following is the best article I've ever read on the subject.  Mr. Eby's writings are great, although quite detailed and long at times, so hang in there;  it will be worth it :)

https://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html

[LORRAINE777]

Thank you! I will dive in!

[jugghead]

For me it is as simple as:

The rich man who became a beggar (the rich man)
and then
the beggar who became a rich man (Lazarus)

and expanding on these ideas:
The one who is rich with physical things will become a beggar of spiritual things (the rich man)
and then
the one who is a beggar of spiritual things will become a rich man of spiritual things (Lazarus)

of which, I myself believe, it is the process of purification that we all go through, each in their own time

my  :2c:

[GodIsLove]

Jesus spoke in parables, meaning telling the people of the time lessons within stories.

Why is this the one parable everyone wants to take literally?

Is the kingdom of heaven literally leaven? Is the universe a big dough ball of bread?

Are we literally going to turn into sheep and goats to be judged?

Do we all have logs or specks of wood in our eyes?

Are Christians literally glowing lamps?

The parables spoke of things the local people of the time period could relate to. Vineyards, bread making, weddings, sowing seeds, a mugging  etc. The idea of heaven and hell would have been a story they were familiar with, though not all of the people of the time believed in it. It would be similar to telling a moral tale through a Superman movie plot in today's standards. It's a story we all know, it's simple and can be used as the backdrop for a parable.

It doesn't mean we take Superman or Lazarus to be a real person in a real place, but the message is relayed efficiently through the medium of the story.

It's why the Bible is so hard for people today to understand. It was written for a particular culture and time period and mindset. There's nuance we don't pick up on, and significance that we don't understand. We tend to focus on the wrong parts and wrong messages.

So if it's not to be taken literally, we need to dig deeper and realize a mustard seed is symbolic of something small bearing a big tree, which shows growth.

The rich man and Lazarus is about wasted opportunities, and regret. It can be said to apply to individuals or to nations, namely Israel.

[marie glen]

Jesus spoke in parables, meaning telling the people of the time lessons within stories.

Why is this the one parable everyone wants to take literally?

Is the kingdom of heaven literally leaven? Is the universe a big dough ball of bread?

Are we literally going to turn into sheep and goats to be judged?

Do we all have logs or specks of wood in our eyes?

Are Christians literally glowing lamps?

The parables spoke of things the local people of the time period could relate to. Vineyards, bread making, weddings, sowing seeds, a mugging  etc. The idea of heaven and hell would have been a story they were familiar with, though not all of the people of the time believed in it. It would be similar to telling a moral tale through a Superman movie plot in today's standards. It's a story we all know, it's simple and can be used as the backdrop for a parable.

It doesn't mean we take Superman or Lazarus to be a real person in a real place, but the message is relayed efficiently through the medium of the story.

It's why the Bible is so hard for people today to understand. It was written for a particular culture and time period and mindset. There's nuance we don't pick up on, and significance that we don't understand. We tend to focus on the wrong parts and wrong messages.

So if it's not to be taken literally, we need to dig deeper and realize a mustard seed is symbolic of something small bearing a big tree, which shows growth.

The rich man and Lazarus is about wasted opportunities, and regret. It can be said to apply to individuals or to nations, namely Israel.

Amen! ...That's the best thing I've ever read about this parable!

It seems like Universal Reconciliation is purposely veiled in some ways - even if it is written straightforwardly in SO many verses.. Like our Father wants us to search a bit concerning it. Like digging for treasure.. You just have to dig, at least a little!

Great replies here!

Hello Lorraine777! :hiya: :welcome:

:Chinscratch: It's a really good thing, I think, when one verse or parable isn't able to cancel out what we have learned from all the other pertaining verses!

[LORRAINE777]

Thank you all for your invaluable insights! Yes! I agree with everything stated and to add to this...none of his disciples asked him about this parable being literal. They didn't respond with anything related to hell and heaven. So, this goes in line with the cultural meaning of the parable. It's amazing how God is opening my eyes to new revelations just from this post...thanks all!

[Phoebes Daughter]

Hi Lorraine
I rarely post, but I do pop in and read.
Thank you for posting this question and topic.

I really, really appreciated the replies - and what fantastic analysis of what a parable really is and why we can read and appreciate in proper co text.

Like you, I feel that scripture and understanding of God's word quietly shifts to reveal comfort before our very eyes.
We are on a journey. ❤️

[marie glen]

Thank you all for your invaluable insights! Yes! I agree with everything stated and to add to this...none of his disciples asked him about this parable being literal. They didn't respond with anything related to hell and heaven. So, this goes in line with the cultural meaning of the parable. It's amazing how God is opening my eyes to new revelations just from this post...thanks all!

:thumbsup: Amen! I never noticed that! I think that makes a LOT of logical sense!

Hi Lorraine
I rarely post, but I do pop in and read.
Thank you for posting this question and topic.

I really, really appreciated the replies - and what fantastic analysis of what a parable really is and why we can read and appreciate in proper co text.

Like you, I feel that scripture and understanding of God's word quietly shifts to reveal comfort before our very eyes.
We are on a journey. ❤️

Amen! :thumbsup: :girlheart:

[LittleLambofJesus]

:Chinscratch:Hi Tentmaker! This is my first post and I would love if you would please give some insight into Lazarus and the rich man. I know this is a parable but I cannot get past the reference to Hell and the description by Jesus. Can someone please make sense of this for me? I totally agree with the No Hell by the way. Thanks

Hello. That covenantle parable in Luke 16 is perhaps my largest study of the NT.

A good vid of that of it is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkMdDwIUmMc

And a few good commentaries on it here;

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching...............................
...........Yeshua uses the last two verses of this parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead. The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.................
............The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah..........
=========
The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the kingdom of God:

Luke 16:
19 Yet a certain Man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen making-merry downto a-day shiningly
20 Yet a certain poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the gate of him, having sores-abiding
21 and yearning to be satisfied from the scraps, those falling<4098> from the table of the Rich-one,
but also the dogs coming licked-upon the sores of him.
22 Became yet to be dying the poor-one and to be carried away him by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham. Yet died also the rich-one and was entombed.
23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosoms of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me, that I am being pained in the flame, this".
25 Said yet Abraham "child! be thou being reminded! that thou got the goods of the in the life of thee and Lazarus in like manner the evils, yet now here he is being comforted and thou art being pained.
26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying"
27 Saying yet "I am asking thee then father!, that thou should be sending him into the house of the father of me.
28 for I am having five brothers which he may be testifying to them that no also they may be coming into the place this of the torment".
29 Abraham is saying to him "they are having Moses and the Prophets let them hear them!".
30 The yet he said: "nay father Abraham! but if ever any from dead-ones may be going forth toward them they shall be reforming.
31 Saying yet to him "if Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded".

"Lazarus" occurs 15 times in 15 verses

John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2
It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead. 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!"

John 12:1 Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead,[fn] whom He had raised from the dead. 2 There they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him. 9 Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also,
17 Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness.

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen making-merry downto a-day shiningly

Purple and fine linen used in Revelation:

Revelation 18:
12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl
and fine linen and purple, [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:16] and silk, and scarlet,
16 and saying,
Woe! woe! the great City,
that was having been clothed <4016> with
fine linen, and purple [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:12]

[Lazarus Short]

Lorraine, in the endless debate between hell-believers and non hell-believers, keep in mind always that our World is not a stand-off between Heaven and Hell with us as a contested prize.  We live in a hierarchy:  God, Heaven, the Cosmos, Earth, Man, etc.  Be aware that Hell was not mentioned in any of the creation accounts of the Bible. 

Other than that...WELCOME!