Is there a Hell or are we saved from what?

[fred allen]

Hi all. I am new to this site and I have many questions and concerns. First let me ask this. What are we saved from? Second, why is there so much mention in the bible about everlasting seperation from God? Third, if all are redeeemed what is the need for faith and love for God? I read a write up that was so filled with questions and so devoid of answers that I lost interest even though this subject is of supreme interest. If the universalist claim has real merit, how about answers rather than incessant questions? People with answers don't spend all their time asking questions.  I believe there is a real seperation from God that those who enter through the wide gate will face. Do I agree with this destiny for those who do not enter through the narrow gate? I must answer ... no. I was willing to die away from grace in protest.  I called it my "self righteous suicide".  Then I looked around me and saw very few I would wish to redeem based on their incessant selfishness. I wondered why God would even bother with any of us, including myself. Why would Paul wish himself cut off for the sake of the Jews? Cutoff from what? I think it possible we think too highly of ourselves to believe ANY should be saved. And sved from what? What does the word Savoir imply? That we need to be saved from SOMETHING. I know eternity is endless. I fear that we are not giving our depravity enough substance.

[jabcat]

Hi Fred.  Your questions are welcome, but please give folks an honest chance to respond.  If you're truly open and seeking, some things may "click" for you.  If you're not, or it's not yet your time to "see", then they probably won't - yet   :bigGrin:. 

Many come here without a solid knowledge of what a true belief in the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, or Ultimate Reconciliation really is.  They just want to argue or tear something down that God is building up.  It doesn't work.  So if you truly want to know, and are willing to not only share but also listen, then your time here may be very blessed.

James.

[fred allen]

Hi Fred.  Your questions are welcome, but please give folks an honest chance to respond.  If you're truly open and seeking, some things may "click" for you.  If you're not, or it's not yet your time to "see", then they probably won't - yet   :bigGrin:. 

Many come here without a solid knowledge of what a true belief in the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, or Ultimate Reconciliation really is.  They just want to argue or tear something down that God is building up.  It doesn't work.  So if you truly want to know, and are willing to not only share but also listen, then your time here may be very blessed.

James.

Hi James- I want to let you know right frommthe start... I mean no harm. That being said I came here with an open mind, seeking answers. Not admonishoin or more questions. If souls are in danger I don't want to sit on the sidelines debating the importance of preaching forgiveness and the need for repentance. I must say this is not the bestset up website since I cannot even see what I am typing after a few lines. Am I missing something that will help me communicate better?

[fred allen]

Truly I mean no harm. I mentioned my "self righteous suicide" to prove my sincerity. I feel like Paul said he felt. I just need answers. Not questions.

[jabcat]

Apparently there have been some site issues with explorer 7 I believe...I had to use Firefox for awhile, now seems to be working OK.  Let some of our more tech-savvy people weigh in on this.  Also, some have been having to type in a word document then copy and paste here.  However, there's probably a simple solution for you.  Someone will offer more suggestions as more people come by.

This might be a good thread to review while waiting.  I believe it probably addresses some of your issues;

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/reasons_believing_universal_salvation_jesus_christ_6717.0.html

I have to attend to something at work, will be back later.

[fred allen]

Hi Fred.  Your questions are welcome, but please give folks an honest chance to respond.  If you're truly open and seeking, some things may "click" for you.  If you're not, or it's not yet your time to "see", then they probably won't - yet   :bigGrin:. 

Many come here without a solid knowledge of what a true belief in the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, or Ultimate Reconciliation really is.  They just want to argue or tear something down that God is building up.  It doesn't work.  So if you truly want to know, and are willing to not only share but also listen, then your time here may be very blessed.

James.

James- why would you automatically assume I wouln't give people an honest chance to respond. It was mty FIRST post. I asked questions and am seeking answers. I am open. I have been a Christian for 20 PLUS YEARS AND WAS WILLING TO GIVE UP ALL BECAUSE i THOUGH HELL WAS UNFAIR.

Apparently there have been some site issues with explorer 7 I believe...I had to use Firefox for awhile, now seems to be working OK.  Let some of our more tech-savvy people weigh in on this.  Also, some have been having to type in a word document then copy and paste here.  However, there's probably a simple solution for you.  Someone will offer more suggestions as more people come by.

This might be a good thread to review while waiting.  I believe it probably addresses some of your issues;

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/reasons_believing_universal_salvation_jesus_christ_6717.0.html

I have to attend to something at work, will be back later.

iI feel censored. All I asked for was understanding.

[fred allen]

Is there a limit to how many words or letters you can type? Based on the resposes to my questions, I wonder how many answers I can expect. I came here sincerely seeking. I came here in opposition to the doctrine of Hell. I welcome any coherent answers as to what we are saved from. Please ... someone, help!

[Beloved Servant]

SELF.

[jabcat]

I'm sorry if I've hindered you somehow.  I was trying to help.

SELF.

Amen.  Self.  And death.  "As in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive - each in his own order".

As to "self", our self gets in the way.  So my understanding is, we're saved from separation and sin (and many of its resultant consequences - because we still falter) in this life, as well as the life to come - because we have died in this life, and been raised with Him, we will stand before Him redeemed and welcomed rather than in shame and needing to still be correctively disciplined and brought to repentance and confession of Jesus as Lord.

Also, importantly, we're saved TO - to Him.  Into His life, fellowship, closeness, love, warmth, comfort - that very present help in time of trouble.

[Lefein]

Christ came to give us life, and life in abundance.  So basically, Christ came to save us from anything that isn't Life, or life-giving.

It is my opinion, that he did not come to save us from one specific sort of thing, but from many things - by giving us many things, especially himself.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi all. I am new to this site and I have many questions and concerns.

Hello Allen, Welcome

First let me ask this. What are we saved from?

I think there are a lot of things that we are saved from and that might be as numerous as our experiences.  I have been saved from the bondage of religion, drugs, codependance to name a few.  But the ultimate spiritual answer is right in scripture.

Lk 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

1C 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.


We will not remain dead because it shall be destroyed.

Second, why is there so much mention in the bible about everlasting seperation from God?

There is mention of Gods judgment of mankind. The english word everlasting is an abstract perspective of the ancient hebrew word olam and the ancient greek word aionios.   This abstract perspective means that the length of judgment cannot be perceived.  I don't know about you, but I have endured trials that were caused by my own behavior and while I was in the midst of those trials I sure had no idea how long my misery would last.  I certainly learned my lesson through those trials and I have learned that I will absolutely never ever do them again.

It sure seemed like God was a long way off and I didn't like it one bit. But he never really left me, it was only my blindness that made me think that.

Third, if all are redeeemed what is the need for faith and love for God?

That is a wonderful question and the answer is even more glorious.  It is God who loves us first that ultimatly causes all to have faith and love for him.  Of course we do not see that result being the same for each person, or all at the same time, it is a process that is testified in due time.


1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

[willieH]

willieH: ...Hi Fred... :welcome: to Tentmaker!

Jabcat (James) and Beloved Servant (David)... have spoken well... giving good advisings already...  :thumbsup:

I would like to attempt to give answer your questions...  and have been a believer and researcher of UR for 10 years, as well as having researched "HELL" for over 20 years... and before I begin... HELL was not commanded to be preached, nor are there any examples of its preaching in the NT, ...nor is it logical, reasonable, emergent of LOVE, nor PEACE, but in its FALLACY and FALSE WITNESS, ...it is full of FEAR which is CAST OUT by LOVE -- 1 John 4:18 -- which (love), is GOD -- 1 John 4:8

Neither can it be stated as part of the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- which is our commanded mandate -- Matt 28:19-20 -- to preach to the world...

There is NO "PEACE" whatsoever, ...involved in the proposal of HELL...  :thumbdown:

You are welcome to disagree with what I shall say... but as James has already noted... If UR is truly being opened to your vision in this moment, then you shall not only --- NOT disagree... you shall welcome the information given...

Hi all. I am new to this site and I have many questions and concerns. First let me ask this. What are we saved from?

CHRIST was crucified (put to DEATH) and was the FIRSTBORN of many brethren --  -- having RESURRECTED from DEATH.  There is no logic nor is there any documentation that CHRIST went "to HELL" to pay for our sins, He went to the GRAVE and ROSE to LIFE, from it...

We are therefore saved out of DEATH and all it encompasses (for it is a state in which LIFE is not found)... and which is in fact the OPPOSITE of LIFE... which CHRIST is noted as being -- John 14:6 -- all that are ...IN... CHRIST (which shall be ALL -- 1 Cor 15:22)... are IN LIFE...

Second, why is there so much mention in the bible about everlasting seperation from God?

What do you consider as "so much mention"?  And where is it noted that "separation" of even ONE, from God is even mentioned?  Please note the MANY Scriptures you seem to be making reference to, and then I can comment upon them.  :winkgrin:

Third, if all are redeeemed what is the need for faith and love for God?

Easiest one so far...

(1) -- CHRIST  is the author of FAITH -- Heb 12:2 -- as well as its "FINISHER"...  One cannot HAVE FAITH, until it is authored in us, by the WORD -- Eph 2:8

CHRIST  is an UNCHANGING entity... and it is HIS LOVE that transforms a heart into HIS unchanging state which is ETERNAL.   NO human and SINFUL heart has EVER, ...changed itself...

(2) -- One cannot LOVE God of himself... for the HEART of man is DESPARATELY WICKED above ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9 -- Only GOD can MAKE a DISHONORABLE sinner into an HONORABLE Son -- Rom 9:21 -- for BOTH the DISHONORABLE portion of each "lump" (man) is MADE by God... as well as the HONORABLE portion it is MADE into ---  which IN that "MAKING" ---  DESTROYS the DISHONORABLE portion...

I read a write up that was so filled with questions and so devoid of answers that I lost interest even though this subject is of supreme interest. If the universalist claim has real merit, how about answers rather than incessant questions? People with answers don't spend all their time asking questions.

Some of the best answers are questions, Fred... You obviously have a belief system that you are involved in, which you have yet to reveal... and so a few questions from those who answer you are therefore necessary and appropriate.

You have asked some specific questions. 

Do you have "answers" to them that you percieve to be (already) correct, before asking them?  If so, then why ask them here?  If you already believe you have ANSWERS to your questions, then asking them here is just a basis to argue... for the belief of this forum and the majority of the members of it, is that ALL men shall be SAVED... which is the ONLY PERFECT and COMPLETE number...

This is just logic, and REASON:  If even ONE is not saved which is IN NEED of Salvation (i.e. "LOST")... then the number which were IN NEED of SALVATION (those "found" -- Luke 15:32 -- the one "LOST" was "found")  --- was not COMPLETE. 

I believe there is a real seperation from God that those who enter through the wide gate will face.

FIRST -- See what I mean?  Here you are answering your own "question" are you not ("I believe...)?

SECOND -- The ones that "ENTER" via the "wide gate" are still... GOING "IN" = ENTER -- are they not?  Here is a description of them -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- Though it is a matter of a different discussion... we are AMIDST the FIRE which is destroying ALL moments of wickedness... (This LIFE is the Lake of FIRE, symbolized in the Revelation)

Also, there is no mention whatsoever of "SEPARATION" in the text -- Matt 7:13 -- Luke 13:24 -- which mentions the WIDE GATE, ...is there Fred?

Something to consider... In Matt 7:22-23 the ones which are addressed in this way are MANY which are COMING in the name of CHRIST -- MOST of "Christianity", comes in the Name of CHRIST, preaching that THEY prophesy in His Name, and that claim to be "doing many wonderful works" and that are "casting out devils"...

The believers of UR cannot be considered as "many" at all... in fact... we are so FEW, that amongst the current (as well as the number who have gone ahead) -- 2.5 BILLION "Christ believers" bringing His NAME to the WORLD... we are not even a significant portion.  Think about it.

THIRD -- The Apostle Paul said that NOTHING could separate us from the LOVE of GOD in CHRIST -- Rom 8:38-39 -- death, nor life (however lived), nor angels, nor PRINCIPALITIES, nor POWERS (whatever kind), nor things PRESENT nor things to come, nor height, depth (physical things), nor ANY OTHER CREATURE (includes all "creatures" = other men/women)...

So why is it that you might believe that there is ANYTHING that can SEPARATE -- YHVH  God -- the COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL God of ALL MEN, from them? -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 (& 8 other verses which say the same thing -- Job 34:19 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mke 12:14 -- Rom 2:11 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Col 3:25 -- 2 Chron 19:7)

Remember this Fred... God so LOVED the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son to save it...  and GOD is UNCHANGING and His WORD which SAVES the world is UNCHANGING... Then the ETERNAL says:  He "SO LOVED the WORLD, ...He DOES LOVE the WORLD, and ALWAYS WILL LOVE the WORLD...  :nod: 

LOVED=yesterday /
LOVES=today /
WILL LOVE=forever -- Heb 13:8

Do I agree with this destiny for those who do not enter through the narrow gate?  I must answer ... no.

Not completely clear as to what you are saying here...   :Chinscratch: ...but it sounds like the essence of UR to me...

I was willing to die away from grace in protest.  I called it my "self righteous suicide".  Then I looked around me and saw very few I would wish to redeem based on their incessant selfishness. I wondered why God would even bother with any of us, including myself. Why would Paul wish himself cut off for the sake of the Jews? Cutoff from what?

Cut off from everything LIVING, Fred... Paul was of the heart of SELF SACRIFICE... which he preached often.  And in that heart, was in agreement with the Heart of CHRIST, which SACRIFICED SELF, and was CUT OFF from the living... because of FAITH in the promises of GOD which sent Him to BE the redeeming sacrifice.

I think it possible we think too highly of ourselves to believe ANY should be saved. And sved from what?

I have already answered this question...

What does the word Savoir imply? That we need to be saved from SOMETHING.

God is saving us from and out of DEATH (and all which brings it forth=sin), ...new brother... THAT is the "something" from which we are saved...

I know eternity is endless.

Yes... but it is also BEGINNINGLESS!  One of the biggest problems in understanding within Christianity, is that ETERNITY has no boundary in any direction.

One of our members gave a good illustrative example (in the physical universe) of eternity... the SPHERE... at what point does a SPHERE "begin"? "end"? In what direction does it extend?

I fear that we are not giving our depravity enough substance.

Setting your >>>SELF<<<  aside, as Beloved Servant said in that ONE WORD... is to set aside ALL your depravity... and depending upon CHRIST to eliminate it FOR YOU...

:Peace:

willieH   :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

Hi all. I am new to this site and I have many questions and concerns. First let me ask this. What are we saved from?

Combined with the topic title it's a weird question.
Most people don't murder because they think it's bad. Even if they are 100% sure they never get problems with the police.
Secondly I do believe God is no walkover and things have concequences. No eternal torture but still less plesant things.

Second, why is there so much mention in the bible about everlasting seperation from God?

That's an easy one. There is not even one single verse that states that. Not one.

Third, if all are redeeemed what is the need for faith and love for God?

Because we are only saved through Jesus. Not a single person will ever be redeemed without kneeling to/accepting Jesus. That kneeling can happen today. In 10 years or after you died.

If the universalist claim has real merit, how about answers rather than incessant questions? People with answers don't spend all their time asking questions.

If it was just that simple :winkgrin: Even the best team of Biblical scholars know less than the HS. So there is always something to learn.

I believe there is a real seperation from God that those who enter through the wide gate will face.

The famous gate that leads to destruction. Note that it says destruction not torture.
If you look at the Greek word for destruction you see it's the same as lost in the lost coin, lost sheep and prodical son parables.
Jesus came to search what's lost. UR people think Jesus has good eyes and will find anything. Orthodox believer thing Jesus is blind as bat  :laughing7:

What does the word Savoir imply?

Saved from death. Without Jesus everybody will stay dead forever.
BTW really old translations call Jesus the Healer instead of Saviour. Maybe that's a small hint too.

[WhiteWings]

James- why would you automatically assume I wouln't give people an honest chance to respond. It was mty FIRST post.

You are right Fred. But if you know the history of this forum your will likely understand.
Many people are not believing in UR and join are on a war path. They come in with guns blazing so to speak.

Better late than never  :welcome: Fred

[jabcat]

Wow, you're getting some really good answers Fred.  Good job everyone!   :thumbsup:

[Lefein]

I once had a thought, that might not answer your questions dear reader, but might put you on a train of thought to where God may lead.

Hell is separation from God, the traditional church, every church that has a doctrine of Eternal Damnation teaches that Hell is Separation from God (in some way or another, with, or without fire involved).

To be unsaved, is to be separated from God, the traditional church also teaches us this - because you can't have communion with God if you are not saved - thus says the doctrine.  If a man is not separated from God (like the prodigal separated from his father) then he is with God, and has God, and if he is with, and has God then he cannot legitimately go to Hell.  So in summary - The unsaved are separated from God.

God is Life, and so the unsaved being separated from God, are separated from Life.  To be separated from life, is to be absent of it, and to be absent of Life is to be...well, dead.

So, the unsaved person is dead (let the dead bury their dead?) and separated from God.  The saved person is full of Life, and is in the Father, as the Father is in him; no separation.

Wouldn't that not mean then, that the unsaved people are in Hell already?  Since they are dead, and separated from God in their deadness? Eternal Damnation teaches that when an unsaved person dies, they are separated from God forever (they go to Hell).  But here we find the unsaved are already dead, and already separated from God...Just like you and I once were.  So, would they not already be in Hell...and being already in Hell, how can someone be cast into the place where they already dwell?

Ah, but this is the best part...

Since, the unsaved person is dead, and separated from God...for all intents and purposes - is already in Hell...already living in it...Just like you, and I once where...Do we not find ourselves having been saved?  We are Christians after all...

Jesus saved us from Hell, pulled us right out of the middle of it.  Death, Hell, and all that is Separation from God did not stop him, or hinder him one little bit.

Eternally lost in Hell?  Not possible with God who picked us (unsaved, dead heathens) up out of Hell (separation) itself.

[CHB]

Hi Fred,

I think one good question YOU should ask is, "what is hell"? I will give you my  :2c: of it. Also there are many post and articles on here that talk about it.  To me, hell is a hole 6 foot deep, depending,  and it is where everyone of us will be unless Christ comes in our life time and we are caught up without first going to hell, which is the grave.

CHB

[Pierac]

What happened to Fred...?  :dontknow:

Slow down Fred, do not expect full revelation all at once! Not a single person here got it that way, so why should you be different?  Long suffering is a part of the fruit of the Spirit!


So quite demanding, and just read and observe, both you and God have the time!  :thumbsup:

Paul

[legoman]

I once had a thought, that might not answer your questions dear reader, but might put you on a train of thought to where God may lead.

Hell is separation from God, the traditional church, every church that has a doctrine of Eternal Damnation teaches that Hell is Separation from God (in some way or another, with, or without fire involved).

To be unsaved, is to be separated from God, the traditional church also teaches us this - because you can't have communion with God if you are not saved - thus says the doctrine.  If a man is not separated from God (like the prodigal separated from his father) then he is with God, and has God, and if he is with, and has God then he cannot legitimately go to Hell.  So in summary - The unsaved are separated from God.

God is Life, and so the unsaved being separated from God, are separated from Life.  To be separated from life, is to be absent of it, and to be absent of Life is to be...well, dead.

So, the unsaved person is dead (let the dead bury their dead?) and separated from God.  The saved person is full of Life, and is in the Father, as the Father is in him; no separation.

Wouldn't that not mean then, that the unsaved people are in Hell already?  Since they are dead, and separated from God in their deadness? Eternal Damnation teaches that when an unsaved person dies, they are separated from God forever (they go to Hell).  But here we find the unsaved are already dead, and already separated from God...Just like you and I once were.  So, would they not already be in Hell...and being already in Hell, how can someone be cast into the place where they already dwell?

Ah, but this is the best part...

Since, the unsaved person is dead, and separated from God...for all intents and purposes - is already in Hell...already living in it...Just like you, and I once where...Do we not find ourselves having been saved?  We are Christians after all...

Jesus saved us from Hell, pulled us right out of the middle of it.  Death, Hell, and all that is Separation from God did not stop him, or hinder him one little bit.

Eternally lost in Hell?  Not possible with God who picked us (unsaved, dead heathens) up out of Hell (separation) itself.

Wow that was a good post Lefein!  One of the points ET orthodoxy will typically try to make is: if there is a heaven, there must be a hell but they neglect what you pointed out - this life is essentially a 'hell' (metaphorically speaking as the opposite of heaven).  Before we experience heaven we must experience the opposite of heaven - that way we will be able to appreciate it!

[MacPherson]

"If there's no eternal punishment, what are we saved from?!" An age old question. The thing is, I've heard and read countless testimonies of people who became saved. And their testimonies are not relegated to "I was saved from eternal punishment". That's hardly the singular and exclusive topic given in testimonies of the saved. If there's nothing else other than eternal punishment to be saved from, then why are all these people who've been saved, talking about all the stuff they were delivered from after they became saved?