I just came here to tell you guys that I'm concerned about this doctrine of universalism and you folks and I care.
Please read my signature.
Love,
Maddy
I know many will hate me for standing for the truth so I wish you all well and I am praying for you all. :) :icon_flower:
Thank you for caring. That's good. Have you studied Ultimate Reconciliation through the cross of Jesus Christ? If not, you may find there are some orthodox beliefs you've been taught that are not truly scriptural based.
Would you like to ask some questions? There are many resources on the main page, and many kind people here who have been where you are. Still believers on Jesus, Savior of the world - just have been allowed to see a little more of God's plan to ultimately bring His whole creation back to Himself.
Following the cleansing, convicting Lake of Fire, every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord. This can only be done IN the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for your kindness, please feel free to share. Plz orient yourself to the Rules of the forum - there are many people here who can share good information with you.
James.
Hi and :welcome: Maddy. Stick around and you will see your view is slandering the loving character of Father.
Read my signature and I'll give my first answer to yours.
Pasting articles here makes them unreadble because teh formatting gets lost so I'll give you links to 2 short articles.
Article #1 (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=source%2FMatthew%2025_46.htm)
Article #2 (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/Matthew%2025_46_2.htm)
willieH: Hi Maddy... and :welcome: to Tentmaker...
Might I say before addressing your introduction, that I use CAPS and COLORS for emphasis, and do not mean them to be shouting or offensive to you... :wink2:
Quote from: Mark9:44,46,48 on October 27, 2010, 04:09:10 AM
I just came here to tell you guys that I'm concerned about this doctrine of universalism and you folks and I care.
It is good to be concerned for others, and caring for them... and as James (Jabcat) has noted, you have approached in a gentle manner... :thumbsup: Thank you! :boyheart:
Just a quick FYI --- If you came here to teach us of
ET (eternal torment), ...know that most of the membership here has come from churches that teach it, and LEFT them because of it, finding the TRUTH of the Reconciliation of ALL THINGS... :nod:
Before I address your "SIG"... I would like to address your user name...
Mark 9:44,46,48 ...which leaves out
Mark 9:49... Is it your understanding that the "fire" of
Mark 9:49 is a temporary one? And if so... Why must ALL be immersed in it? :dontknow:
Quote from: Mark9:44,46,48 on October 27, 2010, 04:09:10 AM
Please read my signature.
Love,
Maddy
Before I begin... if we are to observe the elements of this passage [
Mark 9:44,46,48] as LITERAL... then ALL portions of the passage must be considered as LITERAL, not just the verses you have picked, but the ones IN BETWEEN them as well...
IOW... If this "punishment" is LITERALLY forever, then the "cutting off of limbs" is JUST AS LITERAL... Though you are welcome to believe as you like, and it is not my intention to change you or your beliefs in any way (that is GOD's business), ...such an observation of this passage (cutting off hands, poking out eyes, etc), is obviously
NOT what is described or instructed here... And the evidence of this, is that NO believer in CHRIST, has implemented this maiming, even though they might be battiling "this sin" or "that one"...
Even the Apostle Paul in the confession of himself, did not begin slicing this and poking out that in his commentary --
Rom 7 -- and to my own knowledge, ...other than in this particular passage (which is paralleled in
Matthew 5), there is no other witness that suggests this (maiming)... I don't know everything, so if there is, I welcome you to update me... :nod:
CHRIST would not instruct MEN to destroy or maim the TEMPLE of GOD (the body --
1 Cor 6:19)... by LITERALLY harming it... so, we are therefore compelled to observe the "cutting off" of hands, etc., means to CEASE applying or using your hands, feet, eyes, etc. (action components) in the practice of SIN... and does
NOT instruct one to bring physical harm to oneself... :dontknow:
That said... here is your SIG and my comments about it:
Quote from: Mark9:44,46,48 on October 27, 2010, 04:09:10 AMIf punishment isn't eternal then neither is life for the believer because Jesus used the same Greek word (aionion) to describe the duration of life "life eternal" and punishment "everlasting punishment". Eternal (aionion) life is eternal and everlasting (aionion) punishment is everlasting. Matthew 25:46
FIRST --- No offense, but in order for GOD to be JUST, ...His "JUSTICE" must be aligned with REASON --
Isaiah 1:18 -- for He calls us to REASON with Him, of the things spoken in His
WORD... and if indeed we are called by Him to REASON, then we also have the capability to do so... and in order for understanding to occur, "His form of REASON" shall be comprehended by us as we endeavor to "REASON" with Him.
It is UNREASONABLE for GOD to punish men, whom HE brought forth (of His decision, not theirs), knowing their EVERY DEED before they
did ANY of them... and proceeded to bring them forth without regard to that knowledge, ...and (as YOU see it), then decide to PUNISH them FOREVER for doing those deeds (which were done in but a SPEC of finite time) which are hardly even a visible or even worthy of notation, in comparison to the ETERNAL... Tantamount to BEING TORTURED forever, for parking your car one minute over the time limit. :rolleye:
SECOND --- If one does not comprehend the meaning of ETERNAL, then one has no business using the term. ETERNAL does NOT imply "from now -- on"... It implies WITHOUT BEGINNING or END...
If one does not understand how something (such as GOD, Heaven, etc) has NO BEGINNING, then the use of the term ETERNAL in ANY LANGUAGE by ANYONE, ...is INVALID.
That translators have erroneously translated AION to mean ETERNAL", is just a case of FINITE men, employing the same flaw... They also
CANNOT explain how GOD has NO BEGINNING, yet they insist on using the term ETERNAL without regard to that deficiency.
THIRD --- Your SIG begins with an incorrect and uncomprehended foundation (eternal), in addressing LIFE and PUNISHMENT... so it cannot conclude in other than error. It can be shown that both AION and its derivitive term AIONIOS, are both used in the New Testament as TIME (not ETERNAL) oriented terms which had BOTH a BEGINNING and an END...
The premise of "ETERNAL" has neither of these characteristics (beginning/end). This can also be done with the uses of the Hebrew term, OWLAM (which is also translated "forever/everlasting/eternal') in the OT...
In either case (Owlam or Aion/Aionios) translation of ANY WORD into ETERNAL is invalid due to the lack of comprehension of the one translating... of the "duration" that "ETERNITY" implies, as well as lack of origin and/or destination.
Quote from: Mark9:44,46,48 on October 27, 2010, 04:09:10 AM
Jesus said 3 TIMES that the lost will continue to be punished eternally in Mark 9:44,46,48. Jesus said "THEIR" worm will never die indicating that they will be punished eternally. Please stop spreading this teaching, it will lead those who believe they are saved to eternal punishment. :(
FIRST ---
JESUS in this passage did not imply that the LOST would be punished ETERNALLY... for that would indeed mean that the "lost" (a condition in which ALL men are found during their earthly lives), have never been other than PUNISHED...
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT means -- ALWAYS punished = Were punished, Are punished, Always will be punished...
SECOND --- This is in reference to GEHENNA... an ACTUAL place that existed outside the city of Jerusalem... It was a place where DEAD bodies were cast in DISHONOR... NEVER were LIVING beings cast into Gehenna... Nor was there ever any TORMENT experienced in Gehenna... These are inventions of the surface observers of the
WORD, which of course, always find themselves as OTHER than destined for "Gehenna"... :rolleye:
I spent 20 years in a "Hell believing" church... and not ONE of the members of the church ever considered themselves candidates for this HORRID projection! It was always "the other guy"... that had not "accepted" the message THEY presented that were on their way to "Gehenna"... :thumbdown:
THIRD --- You would ask us to STOP spreading the teaching that "GOD so LOVES the WORLD and EVERYONE in it, that He will SAVE them ALL"? Do you consider LOVE to be IMPARTIAL? If it is GOD's work to SAVE, ...and GOD saved YOU and YOU were a sinner, why would you think Him to abandon others in their SIN?
In conclusion...
GOD is the SAVIOR of
ALL that are saved (otherwise men are "saving themselves")... and He TESTIFIES over and over in His
WORD to His IMPARTIALITY toward
ALL --
Act 10:34 (and 9 other verses)...
If you believe in His stated IMPARTIALITY, ...how can you REASON that in saving YOU, and not ALL others, ...that He indeed is IMPARTIAL as a SAVIOR, when it is HIS WORK (without any assistance from men) to SAVE? :dontknow:
You are welcome to your beliefs Maddy... and I sincerely hope you enjoy your stay here at Tentmaker, but I can tell you that you are not the first to come here and request UR to cease... nor shall you be the last... Currently there are others here doing the same thing. I can also tell you, that you shall NOT change the minds of those who BELIEVE in the SALVATION of ALL MEN... :bgdance: ...for it is the ONLY PERFECT result of a PERFECT WORK... which arrives at COMPLETENESS... If even ONE is missing, then EVIL won over GOOD -- :mnah: -- which is WHY the Shepherd leaves the 99 to go look for the ONE... :thumbsup:
We here at Tentmaker, ...stand for the TRUTH of
LOVE and
PEACE for
ALL concerning God's creation... not just selective parts which mistakenly esteem themselves as exclusive to His Saving efforts...
Hey... If GOD saves the most VILE sinner of all, ...is He not just the
GREATEST for doing so, Maddy? :myahoo: :bgdance: :boogie: :boydance: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :Yesss:
:Peace: ...be unto you...
...willieH :cloud9:
I've emailed Maddy and asked her to come back and view the responses and for her to respond further.