"IT IS FINISHED" -WHAT DID JESUS MEAN BY SAYING THAT?

[JulieTang84]

That simply made my day. Thanks T-bone  :LH:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Just adorable   T-BONE  :icon_jokercolor: , outta the mouth of babes  :winkgrin:

[T-Bone]

I DON'T THINK THE LORD MINDS US HAVING A LITTLE FUN EVERY NOW AND THEN DO YOU?

[shawn]

We are all looking through the glass darkly.  To assume otherwise is mere pride.  I doubt any of us understand these mysteries in completion.

What I believe is likely only a partial understanding...something that could never do the truth justice.  But, when Jesus said, It is finished.  I believe Him.  At that moment I believe all of mankind was reconciled.  Salvation I personally believe is bringing men to an awareness of this sacrifice, reconciliation and their need for God.  IMO, its about making men aware of something that is already theirs.

[shawn]

I WAS THINKING THAT IT MIGHT BE TIME FOR A LTIILE CHURCH HUMOR, SO HEAR GOES.

A LITTLE BOY AND HIS PARENTS WENT TO SUNDAY SCHOOL AND CHURCH ONE DAY AND THE LITTLE BOY HEARD THE STORY OF HOW GOD TOOK ONE OF ADAMS RIBS WHILE HE WAS SLEEPING AND MADE EVE OUT OF IT.

HE PONDERED THAT FOR AWHILE AND SAID "OK . SO THAT'S WHERE WOMEN CAME FROM".

NOT THINKING TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT ANY MORE , THEY RETURNED HOME FROM CHURCH AND SAT DOWN FOR THEIR SUNDAY MEAL.  WHEN THEY HAD FINISHED, HE WAS TOLD BY HIS PARENTS TO GO LIE DOWN FOR A NAP WHICH HE DUTYFULLY OBEYED AND DID.

AFTER A LITTLE WHILE HE WOKE UP WITH A STOMACH ACHE AND RAN INTO THE LIVING ROOM WHERE HIS MOM AND DAD WERE AND COMPLAINED THAT HIS SIDE HURT AND SAID:

"I THINK I'M HAVING A WIFE!"

No, little one...having a wife feels like a pain somewhere else.   :happygrin:

I just kid ladies  :Peace2:

[T-Bone]

SHAWN,

YOU'RE TREADING ON THIN ICE THERE, MY FRIEND.

[Seth]

We are all looking through the glass darkly.  To assume otherwise is mere pride.  I doubt any of us understand these mysteries in completion.

What I believe is likely only a partial understanding...something that could never do the truth justice.  But, when Jesus said, It is finished.  I believe Him.  At that moment I believe all of mankind was reconciled.  Salvation I personally believe is bringing men to an awareness of this sacrifice, reconciliation and their need for God.  IMO, its about making men aware of something that is already theirs.

Hi Shawn,
I don't disagree that making man aware of the sacrifice and the reconciliation is paramount to the process of salvation. But what I see missing in a lot of salvation doctrines is the importance of receiving the Holy Spirit, and this includes ET, to Annihilation, to even UR. We were always taught that salvation means, believing in Jesus so you don't go to hell. Therefore, salvation is complete in one instance according to the revelation of a piece of knowledge. That means the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation, just a word of knowledge.

It isn't the KNOWLEDGE of a doctrine that saves, but the belief in Christ leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, and the SPIRIT is what saves us from sin, in a daily process of walking....

Here is the basic Gospel salvation message as preached by Peter to the uninitiated:

Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

The prescription for salvation here is three parts:

1) Believe in Jesus Christ
2) Repent and be baptized receiving the Holy Spirit (I don't believe Peter was talking about water)
3) Save yourselves from this wicked generation (ie by being saved from sin)

1...2...3 BOOM! Done. Very simple.

However, the salvation message got twisted up into this:

1) Believe in Jesus Christ, to be saved from hell (and.....?)

That's it. That's all you hear. No necessity for the Holy Spirit, no need to be saved from "this untoward generation" nothing about sin, other than to make people scared of hell, but nothing about how sin itself is the judgment to escape from. My question is: why aren't we MIRRORING the salvation message of the Apostles? Probably because Christian doctrine has been messed up for many, many generations.

That is why I have been talking about all this in this thread. If the salvation message is this:

"Realize you are already saved....then...you will be saved" Where is the Holy Spirit in that message? It was obviously very important to the Apostles. So if I were to modify it, it would read like this: "Realize you are already saved...so that you can receive the Holy Spirit....then....be saved?"

What the heck happened to repentance?  :dontknow:

If you are already saved, then you don't need the Holy Spirit to cleanse you and save you from "this untoward generation." So this conversation has a lot to do with the salvation message itself. If a man comes up to you and says "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED" what are you going to say?

I would say exactly what Peter said...

[jabcat]

It isn't the KNOWLEDGE of a doctrine that saves, but the belief in Christ leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, and the SPIRIT is what saves us from sin, in a daily process of walking....

If you are already saved, then you don't need the Holy Spirit to cleanse you and save you from "this untoward generation." So this conversation has a lot to do with the salvation message itself. If a man comes up to you and says "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED" what are you going to say?

I would say exactly what Peter said...

:thumbsup:  Scriptural.  It's a miracle, not a realization.

[bushy]

 Quote by Shawn, "Salvation I personally believe is bringing men to an awareness of this sacrifice, reconciliation and their need for God.  IMO, its about making men aware of something that is already theirs."

It's strange how everyone sees things a little differently, but this is pretty much how I see things too.
 
Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.

I see the sacrifice Jesus made as a historical event where He came to do a job and did it. He was sent by the Father to be the savior of the world and he saved it. There is a big problem with the word 'saved' because it means to make well, heal, restore to health, which doesn't happen in a day. Depending on how you look at it, in one way everyone is saved already and in another way nobody is saved yet.

As for believing and having faith, faith doesn't make something true, like getting saved, it is believing something that is already true. 'You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free'. Being set free doesn't happen in a day either.

Just how I understand things. When I came to the knowledge of the salvation of all, one thing that I threw out the window was the them versus us thinking. I see everyone as a part of the one big family of the Father and some of the kids are badder than others but we are all being trained up in the way we should go by a perfect Father that knows how to get the job done right.

[Seth]

I see the sacrifice Jesus made as a historical event where He came to do a job and did it. He was sent by the Father to be the savior of the world and he saved it. There is a big problem with the word 'saved' because it means to make well, heal, restore to health, which doesn't happen in a day. Depending on how you look at it, in one way everyone is saved already and in another way nobody is saved yet.

Yes, I see it similarly according to this scripture:


Romans 4:17
17 (as it is written: "I have made thee a father of many nations"), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were.

In the same way, I say, the dead are alive. But I do so in the sense that it is NOT, but that it will be.

[jabcat]

  I see everyone as a part of the one big family of the Father and some of the kids are badder than others

Hi bushy..you're right, various understandings are interesting.  I'm not a literalist per say, but I do believe any of our beliefs about scripture should have a really solid (best as possible) foundation on actual scripture.  For example, there's a bunch of stuff I wish were a certain way, but apparently aren't.

Would you consider this about the above?  It's just a small point in this "already saved" discussion (which I believe is not based on actual scripture).  Anyway - how can the quote above be true, when the scriptures say there is a clear difference between a child of God and a child of the devil?  (I Jn 3:10)   

Also, I certainly do believe some are already saved, i.e., spiritually reborn.  There is a LOT of scripture that uses past tense/already done for the ecclesia (not for the world), mostly by Paul.  However, I also believe salvation (healing/delivering) is also progressive - spirit first, through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - then the process of sanctification walked out in this life [which some don't obtain in this age, although spiritually reborn] - and then finally, the redemption of our bodies [immortality] on the Day of the Lord.   So I believe it's scriptural that some are saved, being saved, and will be saved......while some are lost, and won't be saved at all until the next age.   :2c:

[jabcat]

i'll delete this..but if responding/quoting, i edited my post above, as i wasn't sure/comfortable with some of it

since i just stated that if we believe something about scripture, that i believe it should be based on actual scripture...i decided i better abide by that   :laugh:

[bushy]

  I see everyone as a part of the one big family of the Father and some of the kids are badder than others

Hi bushy..you're right, various understandings are interesting.  I'm not a literalist per say, but I do believe any of our beliefs about scripture should have a really solid (best as possible) foundation on actual scripture.  For example, there's a bunch of stuff I wish were a certain way, but apparently aren't.

Would you consider this about the above?  It's just a small point in this "already saved" discussion (which I believe is not based on actual scripture).  Anyway - how can the quote above be true, when the scriptures say there is a clear difference between a child of God and a child of the devil?  (I Jn 3:10)   

Also, I certainly do believe some are already saved, i.e., spiritually reborn.  There is a LOT of scripture that uses past tense/already done for the ecclesia (not for the world), mostly by Paul.  However, I also believe salvation (healing/delivering) is also progressive - spirit first, through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - then the process of sanctification walked out in this life [which some don't obtain in this age, although spiritually reborn] - and then finally, the redemption of our bodies [immortality] on the Day of the Lord.   So I believe it's scriptural that some are saved, being saved, and will be saved......while some are lost, and won't be saved at all until the next age.   :2c:

1 John 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

This verse and others like it used to worry me because I didn't feel all that righteous or loving so for me it is difficult to see a CLEAR difference between people, sometimes, except for really bad people.   :laughing7: Mostly I agree with you, since it's obvious lots of people  aren't following God. The biggest thing is the word 'saved' which is an on going process, other than in the way Seth used it for God seeing things that aren't as though they are. And I really don't know what a child of the devil is. Because there are verses that say all are God's children. (I don't have time now to look them up) This is something I wish I really understood.

[Seth]

Because there are verses that say all are God's children. (I don't have time now to look them up) This is something I wish I really understood.

Hi bushy,
It doesn't mean that the Devil created them. It means that they mirror the Devil in their actions. In a physical way, you LOOK like your father. In a spiritual way, they LOOK like the Devil by mirroring his actions, making them his children. The reason that Christ's faithful are Abraham's seed, is because they walk as Abraham did. (Romans 4:12). Whoever you mirror with your walk is your father. God is the father of all men in the sense that he physically created all people. But he is not their father in the sense that they mirror the actions of the Devil.

[jabcat]

I'm glad we mostly agree bushy.  I do disagree that no one is saved now, as in spiritually reborn/given the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  Again, many scriptures say that.  "By grace are you saved...such were some of you"..etc.  "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that Jesus is Lord you will be saved."   There are many more.  But I also believe as I said earlier, there is an ongoing process ["growing in grace and knowledge"]- and a future process [body/immortality] as well.  But IMO, if someone has not been given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior (spiritually reborn, saved), then they're walking in darkness, and still need someone to tell them about Jesus ("how can they believe and call  upon whom they have not heard?" - Paul).  But not so with the true ecclesia, who are saved now (spiritually reborn/renewed) and continuing to be saved (growth, deliverance, healing).     I also agree that outside of time, God has established and accomplished all.  However, He placed us in time, to be walked out in ages.  He even also described Himself not only as past and present, but future.

I'm in a hurry, leaving a bit, so lumping some related things together from many other posts.   There is time and reality.  God's giving us CURRENT instructions as the ecclesia as how to operate in THIS AGE, in THESE bodies...   This is my opinion/current understanding.   To ONLY see things as physical is an error.  But to ONLY see things as spiritual is also error.  We're both.  God has established both.  He has given us many instructions for both.  So as Seth said and I agree, because God created all and gave all a spark of life, does not mean all is already completed, everybody's been given faith to believe on Jesus unto their salvation/regeneration...I believe we are to deal with ourselves and each other how the scriptures lay it out for the ecclesia today.  I personally don't believe in marking out parts of the scripture and saying "I see it different than this, I just see the spiritual, so this doesn't apply to me", etc.    :2c:

[eaglesway]

Recently in another thread we talked about trees.

The relationship between trees and seeds is interesting.

Jesus said, "And now the axe is laid to the root of the trees"

Yet we read that on either side of the river of life are trees of life"bearing fruit in se3ason and having leaves for the healing of the nations" and in Isaiah61:1-6, there is a portion, quoted by Jesus in the opening of His ministry:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me for the Lord God has anointed me to proclaim good tidings to the meek, to bind up the broken hearted; to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn.

To appoint unto all them that mourn in Zion; to give them beauty for ashes; the oil of for mourning; the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that you may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord; that He may be glorified.

And they shall build up the old wastes and raise up the former desolations , and they shall repair the waste cities the desolations of many generations....

And you shall be called priests of the Lord the Ministers of our God."

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and we hav been called ministers of reconciliation bearing the word of reconciliation.

This Word is the seed of the new tree, into which all will be eventually grafted.

"You can tell the tree by its fruit"and a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit gives good seed

The whole creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God who will set the creation free from futility(desolation/chaos/waste) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8

"And the Spirit bears witness that we are His children; and if children then heirs"

Our inheritance is the ministry of Jesus the Reconciler. We are grafted into the one tree. "Behold I am making all things new".

And every creature which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth and the sea and all that are in them I heard saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to the one who sits on the throne and the Lamb forever and ever".

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father"(phil 2:10) because "from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever.(Romanns 11:36)"

This is our inheritance.

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He purposed in Himself; that in dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things in earth; even in Him, IN WHOM WE HAV ALSO OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE; being predestinated acording to the purpose of Him who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will THAT WE SHOULD BE TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY WHO FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST!

wow. as I see it there was always only one tree. like branches in the dispensation of the fulness of times, other trees hav sprung up, been cut- off, been grafted in, been re-grafted in, been gathered and burned, been subjected to the ROOT OF JESSE, the shoot out of dry ground, the light shining out of darkness, the Reconciler Jesus.

We have the word of reconciliation, the only true seed,

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because the Lord God has anointed me to proclaim "good news" to the meek, and to bind up the broken hearted."

Blessed is the man whose delight is the law of the Lord, and in it he meditates day and night- He shall be as a tree planted by the streams of living water.

And I beheld, and from beneath the throne was a river of the water of life, and on either side of the river were trees.....

Isaiah 61:8-11

For I the Lord love judgment(discernment), I hate robbery for burnt offering, and I will direct their work in truth and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

And their seed shall be known among the nations and their offspring among the people and all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed that is blessed of the Lord.

I will rejoice in the Lord and my soul will be joyful in my God, for He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has clothed me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridgroom adorns himself with ornaments and a bride adorns herself with jewels

For as the earth brings forth her buds(the whole creation eagerly awaits!), as as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth, so the Lord will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations."

IMO its all there in Isaiah 61. The gospel of the restoration of the whole creation.

"For the heavens must receive Him until the period of the restoration of all things, which GOD has spoken of by the mouths of all the holy  prophets since the world began.(since the foundation of the cosmos) Acts 3:19

Remember, the word of God is not open to any private interpretation because no prophecy of scripture was ever given by man or the will of man, but holy men moved(God-breathed, oracles) by God.

All of this was contained in "the seed"- Christ and Him crucified- from the foundation of the world. God is drawing all into that "seed", but each in his own order, through the dispensation of the fulness(completion) of times- until God is all in all. The periods, the stages, the ages, the generations, they are being swallowed up into that divine moment where Jesus said, "It is Finished".

I really don't need to split all the details :o)

"The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated  - full of mercy and good fruit- without partiality or hypocrisy. For the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by them that make peace."

:2c: :laugh:

[rosered]

It isn't the KNOWLEDGE of a doctrine that saves, but the belief in Christ leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, and the SPIRIT is what saves us from sin, in a daily process of walking....

If you are already saved, then you don't need the Holy Spirit to cleanse you and save you from "this untoward generation." So this conversation has a lot to do with the salvation message itself. If a man comes up to you and says "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED" what are you going to say?

I would say exactly what Peter said...

:thumbsup:  Scriptural.  It's a miracle, not a realization.

Amen and Amen again ! beautiful   Truth !

[rosered]

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and we hav been called ministers of reconciliation bearing the word of reconciliation.

This Word is the seed of the new tree, into which all will be eventually grafted.

"You can tell the tree by its fruit"and a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit gives good seed

The whole creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God who will set the creation free from futility(desolation/chaos/waste) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8

"And the Spirit bears witness that we are His children; and if children then heirs"

Our inheritance is the ministry of Jesus the Reconciler. We are grafted into the one tree. "Behold I am making all things new".

AWESOME !     :thumbsup:  Christ being the Wisdom and power of God  The Tree of Life ,  no doubt   in the begining was the Word 

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat[/u].

Jhn 4:32   But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.    Jhn 4:33   Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 


Jhn 4:34   Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.   

  Praise God !

[Seth]

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and we hav been called ministers of reconciliation bearing the word of reconciliation.

This Word is the seed of the new tree, into which all will be eventually grafted.

"You can tell the tree by its fruit"and a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit gives good seed

The whole creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God who will set the creation free from futility(desolation/chaos/waste) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8

"And the Spirit bears witness that we are His children; and if children then heirs"

Our inheritance is the ministry of Jesus the Reconciler. We are grafted into the one tree. "Behold I am making all things new".

AWESOME !     :thumbsup:  Christ being the Wisdom and power of God  The Tree of Life ,  no doubt   in the begining was the Word 

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat[/u].

Jhn 4:32   But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.    Jhn 4:33   Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 


Jhn 4:34   Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.   

  Praise God !

:dsunny:

[dajomaco]

When Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.

So all the work for the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, was finished

Next Moses set up the surrounding courtyard for the tabernacle and the altar and hung a screen for the gate of the courtyard. So Moses finished the work.

Ruth the Moabitess said, "He also told me, 'Stay with my young men until they have finished all of my harvest.

Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed.

in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest. And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world,

Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, equip yourselves also with the same resolve—because the one who suffered in the flesh has finished with sin—

[rosered]

When Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.

So all the work for the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, was finished

Next Moses set up the surrounding courtyard for the tabernacle and the altar and hung a screen for the gate of the courtyard. So Moses finished the work.

Ruth the Moabitess said, "He also told me, 'Stay with my young men until they have finished all of my harvest.

Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed.

in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest. And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world,

Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, equip yourselves also with the same resolve—because the one who suffered in the flesh has finished with sin—

good posting daj!!! :thumbsup: