Hello, I'm Travis

[Travis]

Hello, I'm Travis. I used to post on this forum quite a bit as username arcticmonster2003. I see that account is a guest account so I decided to make a new account, I don't like that old username anyway. I used to believe in some form of universalism, I have repented of that.

I am a Christian. I live in Alaska.

Universalism is a false teaching. My reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

[jabcat]

So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Travis... :welcome: to Tentmaker...

Then again, you been here before, eh?  :happygrin:

Hello, I'm Travis. I used to post on this forum quite a bit as username arcticmonster2003. I see that account is a guest account so I decided to make a new account, I don't like that old username anyway. I used to believe in some form of universalism, I have repented of that.

I am a Christian. I live in Alaska.

Universalism is a false teaching.

So say you... :pitiful:

I say you are immersed in the fallacy, and it is YOU which are a FALSE TEACHER...  :sigh:

My reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Most ALL of us have been believers in the fallacies you are presently amidst... you are prayed for...  :Pray:

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Look into this verse a little farther than the SURFACE, "Travis"...  the word "damned" actually means "JUDGED"...  :dontknow:

JESUS  is the same yesterday, today and forever -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 He was SENT NOT to condemn, ...so He, ...DID NOT, DOES NOT and NEVER WILL "condemn".  :dontknow:  Irregardless of the fact that you cannot see it.  Only MEN "condemn" for it is in their nature to do so... :pitiful:

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

That's nice...  :boogie: ...I am truly glad for you that you feel this way!  :thumbsup:

JESUS is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to.  :dontknow:

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.  :dontknow:

willieH  :icon_king:

[Lefein]

Universalism is a false teaching. My reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is water baptism required for Salvation?

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

We have this in common fellow pilgrim.

[micah7:9]

"Is water baptism required for Salvation?"   No.

[Lefein]

I know that Micah. :)

I'm setting the stage for a discussion with him, if he is willing.

[Travis]

Willie, you said:

JESUS is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to. 

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.

John 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Lefein, you asked:

Is water baptism required for Salvation?

Being baptized in water is a command to all whom would repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation.

If someone just plain refuses to get baptized in water, then I would think that to be a symptom of a much larger problem, and I would question whether or not they were truly converted. I mean, why would someone refuse the command?

I understand there may be instances where a conversion and death happens so quickly that there might not be time for baptism in water. For instance, the thief on the cross next to Jesus Christ. However, there is no good reason to teach that instance as an excuse not to get baptized in water, the command is to be baptized in water, a refusal would indicate some problem to me.

That question, to me, is kind of like asking "Do we have to love our neighbor to be saved?", or "Do we have to forgive others to be saved?".  If someone is converted then they will seek to follow the commands of Jesus Christ, if one refuses, then that would indicate some problem to me. There is the thief on the cross, but again, I wouldn't use that example to base doctrine on, while people still have time to listen, we should tell them the things that Jesus Christ said.

[Lefein]

My question was not about the circumstances around baptism, it was simply enough - is it required as the verse (seemingly?) plainly indicates.

But back to the issue at hand;

So we both agree that water baptism is not required to be saved, or to go to Heaven? 

Can we agree then, that when the verse says; "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" it has a meaning that is different than what say...the Church of Christ denomination (a denomination that teaches that water baptism is an absolute must to go to Heaven, and if you are not baptised you're going straight to Hell when you die) teaches?

Or if we'd like to go down a simpler road, and if I can have a yes or no (if you are willing to give it that is); Yes baptism is required to go to Heaven? Or, No it is not required to go to Heaven?

Note; There is a point to this question, I just need to lay the foundation first before I can work on the rest of the verse, and its context.  Since it is something that can't be answered in one massive post.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

Yes, Tentmaker is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ being our Lord and our God. 

[Travis]

Lefein,

Strictly speaking, the verse says:

Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It affirms that those whom believe and are baptized shall be saved.
It also says that those whom don't believe shall be damned.
It does not say that those whom are not baptized shall be damned.
It does not specifically say water baptism.

Salvation is a free gift, it isn't earned, it is given as a free gift to all whom will repent and believe in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation. There are no good works we could have ever done, do, or could do to ever blot out our sins. As with any gift it may be accepted or refused.

When one is saved, then they are led to follow the commands of Jesus Christ.

One can be saved in a moment, by hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believing on Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation.

My version of a yes\no answer to your question

Is water baptism required for Salvation?

is no, but that no does not come without the addition that if a person refuses to be baptized in water while there is plenty of oppurtunity to be baptized in water, then I would say their fruits are showing a lack of true belief, and those whom don't believe shall be damned, so I would be deeply concerned about that person's salvation.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Travis...  :cloud9: 

JESUS  is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS  Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to. 

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.

John 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

FIRST --- This Scripture (you have noted above) does not dismiss the WORD  of JESUS  Himself, which DEFERRED to the TRUTH --- which is that there is ONE GOD, which was NOT Himself, as He said:  "Why callest thou ...ME... good... there is NONE BUT ONE... GOOD... that is GOD" -- Matt 19:17 -- Luke 18:19 -- (which incidentally was NOT Himself, as He questioned the man calling HIM as that ONE that was "GOOD"! :nod:)

SECOND --- Thomas addressed the RISEN Savior which was ASCENDED and therefore PERMEATED by YHVH  God...  :dontknow:

This answer you have given, ...still does not remove the fact that JESUS  in His own WORDS said that He DID and SAID NOTHING of Himself.  :happygrin:

And still, because the Scripture calls Him an UNCHANGING entity --- was/Is/and will be... the EXPRESSION of YHVH for He DOES NOT CHANGE -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --- 

If He WAS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, then He IS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, and ALWAYS WILL BE the EXPRESSED IMAGE of God -- Heb 1:3

An IMAGE is a reflection of something, and is NOT the source of itself.

Do with the word IMAGE what you will, Travis... but it means a VISIBLE  LIKENESS or PROJECTION of something... (in this case... of the INVISIBLE --- YHVH God)

From Merriam-webster:

Definition of IMAGE

1: a reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing; especially : an imitation in solid form : statue
2a : the optical counterpart of an object produced by an optical device (as a lens or mirror) or an electronic device b : a visual representation of something: as (1) : a likeness of an object produced on a photographic material (2) : a picture produced on an electronic display (as a television or computer screen)
3a : exact likeness : semblance <God created man in his own image — Genesis 1:27(Revised Standard Version)> b : a person strikingly like another person <she is the image of her mother>
4a : a tangible or visible representation : incarnation <the image of filial devotion> b archaic : an illusory form : apparition
5a (1) : a mental picture or impression of something <had a negative body image of herself> (2) : a mental conception held in common by members of a group and symbolic of a basic attitude and orientation <a disorderly courtroom can seriously tarnish a community's image of justice — Herbert Brownell> b : idea, concept
6: a vivid or graphic representation or description
7: figure of speech
8: a popular conception (as of a person, institution, or nation) projected especially through the mass media <promoting a corporate image of brotherly love and concern — R. C. Buck>
9: a set of values given by a mathematical function (as a homomorphism) that corresponds to a particular subset of the domain


:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Travis]

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

[Lefein]

So, No.

Good.  Now lets look at the rest of the scripture in its context.

AV = Authorised Version, which is the King James Translation.

AV Mk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

AV Mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

AV Mk 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

AV Mk 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

-- -- --

In the same way that water baptism is not required to go to Heaven, is it so, that the believer must show speaking in tongues, immunity to poison (being able to down a large glass of anti-freeze without dying or even being harmed), handling snakes, and 100% consistency of success in healing when laying hands on the sick - and that if these signs are not shown - their salvation is questionable?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

No, you did more than just introduce yourself, why not be genuine rather than playing coy.    You already off on the wrong track by bearing a false witness. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Travis....long time, no read.  :winkgrin: Wondered what happened to you.  :dontknow: How've you been? 

[Travis]

willieH: Hi Travis...  :cloud9: 

Willie, you said:

JESUS  is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS  Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to. 

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.

John 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

FIRST --- This Scripture does not dismiss the WORD of JESUS Himself, which DEFERRED to the TRUTH --- which is that there is ONE GOD, which was NOT Himself, as He said:  "Why callest thou ...ME... good... there is NONE BUT ONE... GOOD... that is GOD" -- Matt 19:17 -- Luke 18:19 -- (which incidentally was NOT Himself, as He questioned the man calling HIM as that ONE that was "GOOD"! :nod:)

SECOND --- Thomas addressed the RISEN Savior which was ASCENDED and therefore PERMEATED by YHVH  God...  :dontknow:

This answer you have given, ...still does not remove the fact that JESUS in His own WORDS said that He DID and SAID NOTHING of Himself.  :happygrin:

And still, because the Scripture calls Him an UNCHANGING entity --- was/Is/and will be... the EXPRESSION of YHVH for He DOES NOT CHANGE -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --- 

If He WAS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, then He IS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, and ALWAYS WILL BE the EXPRESSED IMAGE of God -- Heb 1:3

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Willie, he didn't tell the man not to call him good, he asked him why he did. The man probably didn't know that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, so Jesus Christ asked him why he called him good, then he went on to explain that only God is good.

Willie, you said

The WORD  is GOD

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Man cannot become God, however, God can become a man, and he did, his name is Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we can have forgiveness of sins and salvation, and he rose again three days later and lives forevermore.


Matthew 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[willieH]

So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

I just had to go back and commend this post James...  And I have the same question... As "Articmonster" you did not convince anyone of your views... what might you think has changed here, "Travis" (alias Articmonster)?

willieH  :bigGrin:

[Lefein]

Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

[WhiteWings]

I just had to go back and commend this post James...  And I have the same question... As "Articmonster" you did not convince anyone of your views... what might you think has changed here, "Travis" (alias Articmonster)?

He's using genetically modified tar seeds this time  :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own.  

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

I just had to go back and commend this post James...  And I have the same question... As "Articmonster" you did not convince anyone of your views... what might you think has changed here, "Travis" (alias Articmonster)?

willieH  :bigGrin:

:dsunny:

[Paul Hazelwood]

  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Oh, I guess I misspoke,  Travis agrees with us after all, since he is going to talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ of which is what goes on here everyday.

MY BAD.

[Travis]

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

No, you did more than just introduce yourself, why not be genuine rather than playing coy.    You already off on the wrong track by bearing a false witness.

I stated my intent to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I also stated that I believe universalism is a false teaching. These statements were a part of my introduction to this universalism forum that I deemed to be necessary.

So, this was not more than just introducing myself, this was the introduction that I felt contained the pertinent information about who I am and why I am here. Had I left out the information in my introduction I would have felt like I was not being open.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

No, you did more than just introduce yourself, why not be genuine rather than playing coy.    You already off on the wrong track by bearing a false witness.

I stated my intent to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I also stated that I believe universalism is a false teaching. These statements were a part of my introduction to this universalism forum that I deemed to be necessary.

So, this was not more than just introducing myself, this was the introduction that I felt contained the pertinent information about who I am and why I am here. Had I left out the information in my introduction I would have felt like I was not being open.

We present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here everyday, glad you can join us in sharing the good news.

[Travis]

Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should write that or something. I was simply defending my faith.