Tentmaker Forum

Hello, I'm Travis. I used to post on this forum quite a bit as username arcticmonster2003. I see that account is a guest account so I decided to make a new account, I don't like that old username anyway. I used to believe in some form of universalism, I have repented of that.

I am a Christian. I live in Alaska.

Universalism is a false teaching. My reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

willieH: Hi Travis... :welcome: to Tentmaker...

Then again, you been here before, eh?  :happygrin:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 03:02:28 AMHello, I'm Travis. I used to post on this forum quite a bit as username arcticmonster2003. I see that account is a guest account so I decided to make a new account, I don't like that old username anyway. I used to believe in some form of universalism, I have repented of that.

I am a Christian. I live in Alaska.

Universalism is a false teaching.

So say you... :pitiful:

I say you are immersed in the fallacy, and it is YOU which are a FALSE TEACHER...  :sigh:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 03:02:28 AMMy reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Most ALL of us have been believers in the fallacies you are presently amidst... you are prayed for...  :Pray:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 03:02:28 AMMark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Look into this verse a little farther than the SURFACE, "Travis"...  the word "damned" actually means "JUDGED"...  :dontknow:

JESUS  is the same yesterday, today and forever -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 He was SENT NOT to condemn, ...so He, ...DID NOT, DOES NOT and NEVER WILL "condemn".  :dontknow:  Irregardless of the fact that you cannot see it.  Only MEN "condemn" for it is in their nature to do so... :pitiful:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 03:02:28 AMJesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

That's nice...  :boogie: ...I am truly glad for you that you feel this way!  :thumbsup:

JESUS is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to.  :dontknow:

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.  :dontknow:

QuoteUniversalism is a false teaching. My reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is water baptism required for Salvation?

QuoteJesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

We have this in common fellow pilgrim.

"Is water baptism required for Salvation?"   No.

I know that Micah. :)

I'm setting the stage for a discussion with him, if he is willing.

Willie, you said:

QuoteJESUS is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to. 

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.

John 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Lefein, you asked:

QuoteIs water baptism required for Salvation?

Being baptized in water is a command to all whom would repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation.

If someone just plain refuses to get baptized in water, then I would think that to be a symptom of a much larger problem, and I would question whether or not they were truly converted. I mean, why would someone refuse the command?

I understand there may be instances where a conversion and death happens so quickly that there might not be time for baptism in water. For instance, the thief on the cross next to Jesus Christ. However, there is no good reason to teach that instance as an excuse not to get baptized in water, the command is to be baptized in water, a refusal would indicate some problem to me.

That question, to me, is kind of like asking "Do we have to love our neighbor to be saved?", or "Do we have to forgive others to be saved?".  If someone is converted then they will seek to follow the commands of Jesus Christ, if one refuses, then that would indicate some problem to me. There is the thief on the cross, but again, I wouldn't use that example to base doctrine on, while people still have time to listen, we should tell them the things that Jesus Christ said.

My question was not about the circumstances around baptism, it was simply enough - is it required as the verse (seemingly?) plainly indicates.

But back to the issue at hand;

So we both agree that water baptism is not required to be saved, or to go to Heaven? 

Can we agree then, that when the verse says; "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" it has a meaning that is different than what say...the Church of Christ denomination (a denomination that teaches that water baptism is an absolute must to go to Heaven, and if you are not baptised you're going straight to Hell when you die) teaches?

Or if we'd like to go down a simpler road, and if I can have a yes or no (if you are willing to give it that is); Yes baptism is required to go to Heaven? Or, No it is not required to go to Heaven?

Note; There is a point to this question, I just need to lay the foundation first before I can work on the rest of the verse, and its context.  Since it is something that can't be answered in one massive post.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 03:02:28 AM
Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

Yes, Tentmaker is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ being our Lord and our God. 

Lefein,

Strictly speaking, the verse says:

Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It affirms that those whom believe and are baptized shall be saved.
It also says that those whom don't believe shall be damned.
It does not say that those whom are not baptized shall be damned.
It does not specifically say water baptism.

Salvation is a free gift, it isn't earned, it is given as a free gift to all whom will repent and believe in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation. There are no good works we could have ever done, do, or could do to ever blot out our sins. As with any gift it may be accepted or refused.

When one is saved, then they are led to follow the commands of Jesus Christ.

One can be saved in a moment, by hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believing on Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation.

My version of a yes\no answer to your question

QuoteIs water baptism required for Salvation?

is no, but that no does not come without the addition that if a person refuses to be baptized in water while there is plenty of oppurtunity to be baptized in water, then I would say their fruits are showing a lack of true belief, and those whom don't believe shall be damned, so I would be deeply concerned about that person's salvation.

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

willieH: Hi Travis...  :cloud9: 

Quote from: willieHJESUS  is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS  Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to. 

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 05:37:15 AMJohn 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

FIRST --- This Scripture (you have noted above) does not dismiss the WORD  of JESUS  Himself, which DEFERRED to the TRUTH --- which is that there is ONE GOD, which was NOT Himself, as He said:  "Why callest thou ...ME... good... there is NONE BUT ONE... GOOD... that is GOD" -- Matt 19:17 -- Luke 18:19 -- (which incidentally was NOT Himself, as He questioned the man calling HIM as that ONE that was "GOOD"! :nod:)

SECOND --- Thomas addressed the RISEN Savior which was ASCENDED and therefore PERMEATED by YHVH  God...  :dontknow:

This answer you have given, ...still does not remove the fact that JESUS  in His own WORDS said that He DID and SAID NOTHING of Himself.  :happygrin:

And still, because the Scripture calls Him an UNCHANGING entity --- was/Is/and will be... the EXPRESSION of YHVH for He DOES NOT CHANGE -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --- 

If He WAS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, then He IS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, and ALWAYS WILL BE the EXPRESSED IMAGE of God -- Heb 1:3

An IMAGE is a reflection of something, and is NOT the source of itself.

Do with the word IMAGE what you will, Travis... but it means a VISIBLE  LIKENESS or PROJECTION of something... (in this case... of the INVISIBLE --- YHVH God)

From Merriam-webster:

Definition of IMAGE

1: a reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing; especially : an imitation in solid form : statue
2a : the optical counterpart of an object produced by an optical device (as a lens or mirror) or an electronic device b : a visual representation of something: as (1) : a likeness of an object produced on a photographic material (2) : a picture produced on an electronic display (as a television or computer screen)
3a : exact likeness : semblance <God created man in his own image — Genesis 1:27(Revised Standard Version)> b : a person strikingly like another person <she is the image of her mother>
4a : a tangible or visible representation : incarnation <the image of filial devotion> b archaic : an illusory form : apparition
5a (1) : a mental picture or impression of something <had a negative body image of herself> (2) : a mental conception held in common by members of a group and symbolic of a basic attitude and orientation <a disorderly courtroom can seriously tarnish a community's image of justice — Herbert Brownell> b : idea, concept
6: a vivid or graphic representation or description
7: figure of speech
8: a popular conception (as of a person, institution, or nation) projected especially through the mass media <promoting a corporate image of brotherly love and concern — R. C. Buck>
9: a set of values given by a mathematical function (as a homomorphism) that corresponds to a particular subset of the domain


:Peace:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 06:44:06 AM

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

So, No.

Good.  Now lets look at the rest of the scripture in its context.

AV = Authorised Version, which is the King James Translation.

AV Mk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

AV Mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

AV Mk 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

AV Mk 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

-- -- --

In the same way that water baptism is not required to go to Heaven, is it so, that the believer must show speaking in tongues, immunity to poison (being able to down a large glass of anti-freeze without dying or even being harmed), handling snakes, and 100% consistency of success in healing when laying hands on the sick - and that if these signs are not shown - their salvation is questionable?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 06:54:08 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 06:44:06 AM

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

No, you did more than just introduce yourself, why not be genuine rather than playing coy.    You already off on the wrong track by bearing a false witness. 

 :cloud9: Hi Travis....long time, no read.  :winkgrin: Wondered what happened to you.  :dontknow: How've you been? 

Quote from: willieH on November 19, 2010, 06:52:53 AM
willieH: Hi Travis...  :cloud9: 

Willie, you said:

Quote from: willieHJESUS  is our LORD and our JOY as well... as is the dedications of our lives to Him...  The WORD  is GOD... and there is only ONE GOD... which JESUS  Himself (the man and SON of God) --- referred to. 

JESUS  via His own TESTIMONY -- DID and SAID NOTHING --- OF Himself --- John 5:19 & 30 -- John 12:49-50 -- John 14:10 -- If you do not "get it"... then you do not.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 05:37:15 AMJohn 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

FIRST --- This Scripture does not dismiss the WORD of JESUS Himself, which DEFERRED to the TRUTH --- which is that there is ONE GOD, which was NOT Himself, as He said:  "Why callest thou ...ME... good... there is NONE BUT ONE... GOOD... that is GOD" -- Matt 19:17 -- Luke 18:19 -- (which incidentally was NOT Himself, as He questioned the man calling HIM as that ONE that was "GOOD"! :nod:)

SECOND --- Thomas addressed the RISEN Savior which was ASCENDED and therefore PERMEATED by YHVH  God...  :dontknow:

This answer you have given, ...still does not remove the fact that JESUS in His own WORDS said that He DID and SAID NOTHING of Himself.  :happygrin:

And still, because the Scripture calls Him an UNCHANGING entity --- was/Is/and will be... the EXPRESSION of YHVH for He DOES NOT CHANGE -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --- 

If He WAS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, then He IS the EXPRESSED IMAGE of GOD, and ALWAYS WILL BE the EXPRESSED IMAGE of God -- Heb 1:3

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Willie, he didn't tell the man not to call him good, he asked him why he did. The man probably didn't know that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, so Jesus Christ asked him why he called him good, then he went on to explain that only God is good.

Willie, you said

QuoteThe WORD  is GOD

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Man cannot become God, however, God can become a man, and he did, his name is Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we can have forgiveness of sins and salvation, and he rose again three days later and lives forevermore.


Matthew 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 04:06:59 AM
So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

I just had to go back and commend this post James...  And I have the same question... As "Articmonster" you did not convince anyone of your views... what might you think has changed here, "Travis" (alias Articmonster)?

Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

Quote from: willieH on November 19, 2010, 07:18:00 AM
I just had to go back and commend this post James...  And I have the same question... As "Articmonster" you did not convince anyone of your views... what might you think has changed here, "Travis" (alias Articmonster)?

He's using genetically modified tar seeds this time  :winkgrin:

Quote from: willieH on November 19, 2010, 07:18:00 AM

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 04:06:59 AM
So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own.  

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

I just had to go back and commend this post James...  And I have the same question... As "Articmonster" you did not convince anyone of your views... what might you think has changed here, "Travis" (alias Articmonster)?

willieH  :bigGrin:

:dsunny:

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 04:06:59 AM
  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Oh, I guess I misspoke,  Travis agrees with us after all, since he is going to talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ of which is what goes on here everyday.

MY BAD.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 06:58:28 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 06:54:08 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 06:44:06 AM

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

No, you did more than just introduce yourself, why not be genuine rather than playing coy.    You already off on the wrong track by bearing a false witness.

I stated my intent to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I also stated that I believe universalism is a false teaching. These statements were a part of my introduction to this universalism forum that I deemed to be necessary.

So, this was not more than just introducing myself, this was the introduction that I felt contained the pertinent information about who I am and why I am here. Had I left out the information in my introduction I would have felt like I was not being open.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:45:38 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 06:58:28 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 06:54:08 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 06:44:06 AM

Lets get down to the nuts and bolts here, the OP basically makes the implication that if we believe in Jesus Christ, but not the way Travis does, we are damned.

Fact is Travis,  you cannot demonstrate that what you believe actually spares you from damnation and certainly trying to prove the basics of Christian Universalism wrong doesn't help your plight any.


I would say the burden of proof is on your shoulders,  let us take a trip down damnation alley and see if your beliefs actually save YOU.    Are you game, or does simply saying "universalism is false" qualify as a good point?

Just introducing myself Paul.

I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

No, you did more than just introduce yourself, why not be genuine rather than playing coy.    You already off on the wrong track by bearing a false witness.

I stated my intent to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I also stated that I believe universalism is a false teaching. These statements were a part of my introduction to this universalism forum that I deemed to be necessary.

So, this was not more than just introducing myself, this was the introduction that I felt contained the pertinent information about who I am and why I am here. Had I left out the information in my introduction I would have felt like I was not being open.

We present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here everyday, glad you can join us in sharing the good news.

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 07:22:38 AM
Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should write that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

I know Travis, I too have defended my faith (I also believe that Jesus is My Lord, and My God) I was just saying so you don't get into a fist fight with WillieH over it, I've gotten into them, and I'm not at all popular here because of it.  I just don't want to see you get in trouble or see your main point of discussion missed over doctrinal issues. ^^

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:53:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 07:22:38 AM
Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should say that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

You really have nothing to defend.  WillieH believes in Jesus as Saviour, so do I, and most likely anyone you encounter here that agrees with the basics of what Tentmaker wants to share to the world does too.

What exactly is it about tentmaker and our belief that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus is the only way causes you to think you need to defend your faith?

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 08:00:21 AM
I'm not at all popular here

Oh, I don't know Lef, I think you're pretty well-known.   :laugh2:

Jabcat; The ladies love me. :)

Great point and question Paul.

Let's see, which one of these is the most true about how to get saved?

a) believe in eternal hell and you will be saved

b) believe everyone will ultimately be saved, and you will be saved

c) believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead, and you will be saved

Here is a scripture passage that I came to realize how profound it really is.

Christian Universalism teaches that Jesus is the only way and that Jesus is Saviour of the world.   Most Christian Universalists have never doubted an eternal hell believers walk with God and mainly argue that it is a belief in Jesus that salvation comes about, not the nature of judgment.  Realize that to some judgement can be eternal hell but Christian universalists simply believe that Judgment has a different nature. 

You can argue for eternal damnation till your blue in the face but that doesn't change what actually saves a person.

Here is the passage.

Phl 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

Phl 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Phl 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,



We preach Christ here, so rejoice.......

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 08:02:35 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:53:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 07:22:38 AM
Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should say that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

You really have nothing to defend.  WillieH believes in Jesus as Saviour, so do I, and most likely anyone you encounter here that agrees with the basics of what Tentmaker wants to share to the world does too.

What exactly is it about tentmaker and our belief that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus is the only way causes you to think you need to defend your faith?

The best that I can tell, Willie seemed to have some issue with me referring to Jesus Christ as God when I wrote that Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

My faith is that God became a man an lived a perfect sinless life and died on the cross for our sins and was raised again three days later so that whosoever believes in him for forgiveness of sins and salvation will be saved.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

Willie seemed to have some issue with the "God" part of that sentence.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 08:13:28 AM

My faith is that God became a man an lived a perfect sinless life and died on the cross for our sins and was raised again three days later so that whosoever believes in him for forgiveness of sins and salvation will be saved.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

Willie seemed to have some issue with the "God" part of that sentence.

Oh, Well, Christian Universalism teaches what you just said, maybe not using those exact words,  so, perhaps, the problems are arising because it really isn't that clear what it is exactly that your saying is false.   Those kinds of misunderstandings can happen.


I mean belief in Jesus as Saviour and preaching it to the world is what we are about.  You do realize that right?

if I may - what of my earlier post?  The one concerning the rest of the verse, and its context.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 08:13:17 AM
We preach Christ here, so rejoice.......

Out of 267 members, including Travis, I'd guess 99%+ believe Jesus is God's Son, that He died for our sins and rose again, and that He is our Savior.   Isn't that supposed to be our common bond?

For the sake of reference, and discussion---The verses at hand, in various forms.
___ ___ ___

In the King James:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

In the Koine Greek:

Ho pisteusas kai baptistheis sothesetai ho de apistesas katakrithesetai.

Literal Translation:

The one-believing and being-dipized/dipped/baptised shall-be-being-saved the yet one-unbelieving/disbelieving shall-be-being-down-judged.

Katakrithesetai comes from the Greek verb "Katakrino" which means "To judge against" to "sentence"

G2632  katakrino  kat-ak-ree'-no

from G2596 and G2919;

to judge against, i.e. sentence.

-Strongs Concordance

The verse could be translated this way; (after of course looking at some studies on the words using strongs)

The one who believes and is washed shall be delivered, yet the one who disbelieves shall be sentenced.

__ __ __

AV = Authorised Version, which is the King James Translation.

AV Mk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

AV Mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

AV Mk 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

AV Mk 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

---

Koine GreeK, Literal Translation, and My Rendering.

Kai epipen autois poreuthentes eis ton kosmon hapanta keruxate to euaggelion pase te ktisei

And he-said to-them being-gone into the system ALL proclaim/herald-ye the well-message/good-news to-every/to-entire the creation.

and he said to them go into the absolute-fullness of the world-system and everyone proclaim the good news to the entire creation.

-

Ho pisteusas kai baptistheis sothesetai ho de apistesas katakrithesetai.

The one-believing and being-dipized/dipped/baptised shall-be-being-saved the yet one-unbelieving/disbelieving shall-be-being-down-judged.

The one who believes and is washed shall be delivered, yet the one who disbelieves shall be sentenced.

-

Semeia de tois pisteusasin tauta parakolouthesei en to onomati mou daimonia ekbalousin glossais lalesousin kainais | opheis arousin kan thanasimon ti piosin ou me autous blapsei epi arrostous cheiras epithesousin kai kalos exousin.

signs yet[now; strongs] to-the ones-believing these shall-be-beside-following/shall-be-fully-following in the name of-me demons they-shall-be-out-casting/they-shall-be-casting-out to-tongues/to-languages they-shall-be-talking/they-shall-be-speaking new | Serpents they-shall-be-lifting/they-shall-be-picking-up and-if-ever deathly/deadly any/anything they-may-be-drinking not no them it-shall-be-harming on un-fare-wells/ones-ailing hands they-shall-be-placing-on and ideally[recovery = my own conclusive interpretation of the adverb's meaning] they-shall-be-having.

Now these signs to the believers shall fully follow; in my name they shall eject demons, and new languages they shall speak, serpents they shall take away, and if they ever drink any poison [absolutely none of] them shall be harmed, they shall lay hands on the sick and [idealness, goodness, wellness and recovery] they shall have.

willieH: Hi "Travis"...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMWillie, he didn't tell the man not to call him good, he asked him why he did.

I did not say that "Travis"... I said that CHRIST noted only ONE was GOOD... and deferred that WORD ("good") to GOD... which in his question of the man included that He was not due this, but GOD WAS...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMThe man probably didn't know that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh

Just like YOU "probably" don't know that you are enslaved within making a false witness here @ Tentmaker... eh?

This is an ASSUMPTION made by you... Please name me the verse that SAYS that CHRIST  was GOD in the flesh?  You ASSUME this because it has been taught you by MEN... but the WORD  does NOT TESTIFY this.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMso Jesus Christ asked him why he called him good, then he went on to explain that only God is good.

Sorry Travis... but you illogically HIDE from what was SAID... JESUS  asked "why CALLEST thou ...ME... Good?"  Then went on to say that "there only ONE GOOD (and JESUS  had already eliminated Himself as being that "ONE" by asking this question)  ...that is GOD"

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMWillie, you said The WORD  is GOD...

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The "WORD" is YHVH God... JESUS CHRIST  is the Son which was AS I ALSO SAID... is the EXPRESSED IMAGE of God... and IMAGE is not the SOURCE it is a reflection or LIKENESS of its SOURCE.

The "WORD" that made flesh... was the MAN JESUS CHRIST... which DID and SAID (which includes WORDS)... NOTHING ...of Himself...  YHVH  sired JESUS CHRIST  the man... just as He MAKES flesh, all men...

The WORD however, unlike ALL other men... was manifest by the INDWELLING (in FULLNESS) of YHVH God  -- Col 2:9   -- which was the "ONE" speaking and doing the things that the MAN called JESUS CHRIST, appeared to "DO"... but IN TRUTH, admitted that He did NOT speak or do ANYTHING, and this admission was made in His own words, ...which I have already noted.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMMan cannot become God

I completely disagree with this, for YHVH  calls the sons of men --- "gods" -- Psalm 82:6 -- so men do not have to "become" gods... they are ALREADY "gods" for YHVH  has proclaimed them as such, "Travis"... or don't you believe ...the TESTIMONY of the Scriptures?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMhowever, God can become a man, and he did, his name is Jesus Christ.

Though it is true that NOTHING is impossible for or with GOD... Because things are not impossible for Him, does not mean that He shall do them... Just as YOU are able to be a MURDERER, but just because you are able to MURDER, does not mean that you SHALL MURDER on the basis that you are ABLE.  :dontknow:

JESUS CHRIST  did a few things that displace Him from being GOD...

ONE --- is that GOD cannot DIE and remain EVERLASTING... Neither can a portion of Him DIE, otherwise He in His EXISTENCE is changed, and can no longer be considered as "EVERLASTING"... JESUS CHRIST  --- DIED.

TWO -- the Scriptures note that GOD is NOT A MAN (neither the SON of MAN) -- Numb 23:19 -- 1 Sam 15:29 -- JESUS CHRIST  was INDEED a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5

THREE --- GOD cannot be TEMPTED with evil -- James 1:13 -- well, again JESUS CHRIST,  was TEMPTED in EVERY WAY a man can be tempted -- Heb 4:15 -- Matt 4:1 -- Mark 1:13  

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMAnd Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we can have forgiveness of sins and salvation, and he rose again three days later and lives forevermore.

Matthew 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

FIRST --- There is more involved here than your SURFACE observations... You are not here to learn, but I believe it to be my duty to deflect the fallacies that you have presented on this forum in the past, and are here to revisit those lies once again...

SECOND --- His "NAME" [emmanuel] is IESOUS (#G2424) -- Which is derived from the  HEBREW [YeHoVsHua -- #H3091] which means YHVH saves... 

The NAME is the indication of this verse... and YHVH  in NAME visited the earth by DWELLING in the MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- JESUS CHRIST... Which bore the "NAME" [emmanuel], God with us... IESOUS = YHVH  SAVES.

THIRD -- YHVH  God  does NOT ever CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 --If indeed, He were to be BORN as a MAN of FLESH... it means that He has CHANGED from both being fully SPIRIT, and from INVISIBILITY as well...  THAT is not what occured...

In SPIRIT, YHVH continued to be INVISIBLE while INDWELLING the (visible) MAN, JESUS CHRIST, who admittedly DID and SAID nothing of Himself... and followed to the letter, the directions of YHVH  God within Him, as they were PROPHESIED...  and in doing and saying as YHVH  God directed Him to, YHVH  God saved the human race...

YHVH visited the earth FULLY invested WITHIN the MAN JESUS CHRIST  as I have already noted in -- Col 2:9 -- I do not contend against this at all...

But YHVH  GOD did not DIE, nor was YHVH  GOD tempted, nor did YHVH  GOD EVER become a MAN, for HE CHANGES NOT. 

Were He to "BECOME" anything means He has CHANGED, ...were He to BECOME other than INVISIBLE means that He has CHANGED, ...were He to BECOME other than SPIRIT and INTO flesh means that He has CHANGED, ...that He would DIE means that He has CHANGED from a position of LIVING... 

The TRUTH is that He DID none of these things, however... the MAN which was His SON, named JESUS CHRIST  ...did ALL these things.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AM
Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

As I see it, ...this is more short sightedness.  Are you saying that CHRIST  is His own Father?  Please!  :rolleye:

For if indeed the MAN JESUS CHRIST sired Himself, then WHO is --- "the FATHER", and what are His duties, and WHY is He called FATHER, when JESUS is performing both things (son & father)?  :rolleye:  This is nonsense.  Yet YOU believe it.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AM1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The SON was indeed a manifestation of His work... just as YOU are "Travis" (and so are ALL the rest of us!)...

GOD is manifest in the flesh IN YOU, is He not?  Whenever you DO as HE commands... is HE not manifest IN YOU?  If not, what IS being manifest in you, "Travis"?

Are you masquerading as a BELIEVER in Him?  Did YOU save yourself, "Travis"?  Is it YOU which preaches to us?  Or have you DIED to yourself, and it is HIM -- manifest IN YOU that preaches to us?  Which is it? :dunno:

You claim to come here to preach the GOSPEL... yet what GOOD NEWS have you brought us today, "Travis"... and how long will it be before you turn tail and run away again?  :sigh:

Why don't you just lay down your obstinance, and believe the TRUE GOSPEL... which is SUCH GOOD NEWS... it cannot be contained... in that GOD's LOVE not only is able to SAVE ALL it SHALL!  ... AND He so LOVED the WORLD in its wretched condition, that He sent His SON to redeem us from ourselves in that we were YET SINNERS when all this was manifest -- Rom 5:6-8 

His LOVE dear brother, is much much LARGER than just saving you, "Travis"... and it is a pretty small observation that notes SELF as saved, and easily condemns OTHERS which are in the WORLD that GOD so LOVES... As JAMES said... this OUGHT NOT SO TO BE! -- James 3:9-15

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:17:38 AMHebrews 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

CHRIST  is the firstborn MAN/SON of MANY to come, ...which YHVH  has named as "god's", "Travis"... The Scriptures callls ALL of us "gods"...

The "Throne" that is CHRIST's ...was already YHVH's... for CHRIST ...sat down in HIS FATHER's throne, and invites us to do the same -- Rev 3:21 -- The "throne" was ALREADY "forever" -- "Travis"... before CHRIST sat upon it... for it was HIS FATHER's throne, ...that He "sat down in"...  :dontknow:

Don't you know by now dear brother, ...that YOU shall not barge in here and push the TRUTH around?  ...here is hoping that you shall finally LEARN the TRUTH in your heart... instead of the MIND of your flesh... which had contained before, and still  contains EASILY refutable beliefs... :pitiful:

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 04:06:59 AM
So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

The Gospel says that people need to repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and was raised again three days later and lives forevermore. It also says that those whom do not repent and believe will die in their sins and be damned eternally.

Universalism on the otherhand is a different gospel where there is eternity in heaven for everyone, at some point.

Jesus Christ said that there be few whom will find the way which leadeth unto life.

Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Universalism says all shall find the way eventually.


It is a big difference overall. The entire focus is different.

From what I have noticed, the focus of the universalism gospel tends to want to tell people they are saved or how they will be saved eventually. Basically, the focus is on universalism.

The focus of the real Gospel is to deeply warn people of the wrath to come, show them how they have sinned against a Holy God, and tell them how they may be saved by repenting and believing in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation, by accepting the free gift.

The universalism gospel message is a different gospel that incorporates some parts of the real Gospel.

QuoteThe universalism gospel message is a different gospel that incorporates some parts of the real Gospel.

Can you show me a verse that tells specifically what the Gospel is?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 09:18:30 AMUniversalism says all shall find the way eventually.

That is NOT AT ALL what it says "Travis"...

Universalism is the belief that the SHEPHERD finds ALL the LOST SHEEP... for it is not up to the SHEEP to "deliver" themselves... it is up to the SHEPHERD to FIND that which was LOST -- Luke 15:32 -- Luke 15:4

Also, universalism seems to forget about the goats.

Matthew 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Quote from: willieH on November 19, 2010, 09:24:57 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 09:18:30 AMUniversalism says all shall find the way eventually.

That is NOT AT ALL what it says "Travis"...

Universalism is the belief that the SHEPHERD finds ALL the LOST SHEEP... for it is not up to the SHEEP to "deliver" themselves... it is up to the SHEPHERD to FIND that which was LOST -- Luke 15:32 -- Luke 15:4

willieH  :cloud9:

Nations, not individuals. 

Note of interest; the word used for goat, is more accurately translated as "kid", a baby goat.

Basically, He'll gather all nations, and like a shepherd separating the adult sheep from the baby goats, shall sit adult sheep on his right hand, and baby goats on his left.

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 09:23:50 AM

QuoteThe universalism gospel message is a different gospel that incorporates some parts of the real Gospel.

Can you show me a verse that tells specifically what the Gospel is?

What I did was present things that the Gospel says.

As far as the universalism gospel, I presented the things that I noticed are different as much as I could, as many universalists don't agree with themselves on many of the particulars.

QuoteWhat I did was present things that the Gospel says.

But what is the Gospel, according to the word?

In essence; show me a verse that says along the lines; "The gospel is such and such", that I can discuss with you over.  Since, we're comparing Gospels here, and you have stated that Universal Reconciliation is a different Gospel from the real one which you say is a warning against the wrath to come (strange considering it is good news).

So, what does the Bible specifically say it is?  That is what I asked. :)

Universalism seems to forget about the goats, or explain them away.

Matthew 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 09:33:18 AM
Nations, not individuals. 

Note of interest; the word used for goat, is more accurately translated as "kid", a baby goat.

Basically, He'll gather all nations, and like a shepherd separating the adult sheep from the baby goats, shall sit adult sheep on his right hand, and baby goats on his left.

Koine Greek, literal translation, and my rendering.

Kai apeleusontai houtoi eis kolasin aionion hoi de dikaioi eis zoen aionion.

And shall-be-coming-from these/these-ones into chastening[chastisemen] eonian[eon-lasting/world-lasting|lasting as long as the chastisement lasts] the yet just-ones[righteous-ones] into life eonion[eon-lasting/world-lasting|lasting as long as life lasts].

And these shall go away into chastisement [lasting as long as chastisement lasts: until the subject is purified and refined], yet the righteous into life [lasting as long as life lasts: Eternal]

G2851  kolasis  kol'-as-is

from G2849;

penal infliction.


KJV: punishment, torment.

Chastisement is not vindictive infliction of pain, it is remedial punishment towards a goal.  Otherwise it would not be penal infliction, it would be vindictive, remorseless, ceaseless, goal-less, purposeless, vain abuse of the image of God, which a human soul, spirit, being - sinful or not, saved or not, is.

God does not abuse his own image, nor will he - that would be evil of him to abuse his children, twice evil for him to do it perpetually, exponentially, and ceaselessly into infinity.  Likewise, since chastisement is punishment that is remedial - with the goal of purifying, and making right the punished object - if that goal is not met, and is not able to be met (IE: never ending torture and separation from God, perpetual infliction of pain with no end, nor achievement of the goal to refine, and purify; eternal damnation) God would be a failure, having failed in his own task in that chastisement - refining the criminal, purifying the sinner.  God is Love, and Love never fails.

–verb (used with object), -tised, -tis·ing.
1.
to discipline, esp. by corporal punishment.
2.
to criticize severely.
3.
Archaic . to restrain; chasten.
4.
Archaic . to refine; purify.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chastisement

Regarding Aion, Aionios - see other sources as to why it does not mean in itself "forever" outside of God's aionian life.

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 09:38:11 AM

QuoteWhat I did was present things that the Gospel says.

But what is the Gospel, according to the word?

In essence; show me a verse that says along the lines; "The gospel is such and such", that I can discuss with you over.  Since, we're comparing Gospels here, and you have stated that Universal Reconciliation is a different Gospel from the real one which you say is a warning against the wrath to come (strange considering it is good news).

So, what does the Bible specifically say it is?  That is what I asked. :)

I have been presenting the Gospel and showing the way to be saved from the wrath to come, even in my Introduction thread. This is my intent to continue to present the Gospel here, so that people may be saved, by repenting of their sins and believing in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins, by accepting the free gift. And to warn of the wrath to come for all whom would reject the free gift.

I have presented some differences, but you want to discuss the matter in a different way. I don't want to discuss the matter in a different way right now. I am happy with the way I am currently doing it.

I asked only for a verse that tells us specifically what the good news is. 

Specifically, are you preaching the Gospel as the Bible says it is?  Or not.  If you are, what does the Bible say it is?  If you aren't, then you see the problem before you.

Lets pretend I am unsaved, lets pretend I am an open minded atheist...What does your holy book say your good news is?  What verse, what chapter, what line shall you quote to me?  Let me hear it from the holy book itself, what its followers and readers say it says.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

1 John 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11  ¶For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Matthew 13:37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37  ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I have provided some verses, whether or not these are sufficient for your purposes Lefein, I cannot say. I would also recommend that every person read the scriptures for themselves. If you have more questions I may not answer to your satisfaction.

I will continue to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ at this forum so long as I can.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:40:35 AM
Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Who are on His left hand? What does that word mean?
What going is in that fire?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:42:05 AM
John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is Jesus still the truh after someone died?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:39:00 AM
Matthew 13:37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

How long does that kingdom last?
How long will the tars burn?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:51:48 AM
I have provided some verses, whether or not these are sufficient for your purposes Lefein, I cannot say.

I think they won't impress many, as in none, on this forum.
Anyway I wish you many posting hours on this forum because every second you waste your time he promoting you satanism you can mess with minds of others. :thumbsup:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 19, 2010, 02:12:37 PM

Anyway I wish you many posting hours on this forum because every second you waste your time here promoting your satanism you can't mess with minds of others.

I've always wondered why people do come here to argue.
Preaching to those who have never heard of Christ seems more fruitful for the Kingdom.

Typical example of striving in one's own works — vanity, all is vanity.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 08:13:17 AM
Here is a scripture passage that I came to realize how profound it really is.

Christian Universalism teaches that Jesus is the only way and that Jesus is Saviour of the world.   Most Christian Universalists have never doubted an eternal hell believers walk with God and mainly argue that it is a belief in Jesus that salvation comes about, not the nature of judgment.  Realize that to some judgement can be eternal hell but Christian universalists simply believe that Judgment has a different nature. 

You can argue for eternal damnation till your blue in the face but that doesn't change what actually saves a person.

Here is the passage.

Phl 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

Phl 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Phl 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,



We preach Christ here, so rejoice.......

:bigGrin: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 09:18:30 AM

The universalism gospel message is a different gospel that incorporates some parts of the real Gospel.

Does belief in Jesus Christ as Saviour save people or not?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:42:05 AM
John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Yes Travis,   Christian Universalisam teaches that.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:40:35 AM
Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You cannot gaurantee that you will not avoid such a fate if you think that when we tell someone about Jesus Christ as our saviour doesn't actually save us.   

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:39:00 AM
Matthew 13:37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Prove that you are not a tare that has come into this field of grain at tentmaker.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:46:00 AM
Acts 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Here is where your hypocrisy will start to show Travis,  you accuse people here of making the focus about universalism and not the gospel yet, you are making your focus about universalism.

Take a good look at verse 36

QuoteActs 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ

Let's paraphrase a bit.  "Therefore let the house of Travis know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus that he is crucifying at tentmaker"


See Travis,  you are essentially crucifying Christ,  you come here and claim that we need to repent for believing in Jesus as Saviour, demonstrating that you have your own repenting to do, therefore making your own salvation under the terms of the doctrine you believe suspect.

When it comes down to it, under the terms of your own words, you're one of the damned right at this moment.

It has been on my mind to start a thread on the question Lefien asked, where in the Bible does it say what the gospel is?
Travis responded with John3:16 but, Jesus did not come preaching John 3:16, so what is the Gospel-Good News?
One thing I know is that knowing that one human brother or sister that will spend a neverending amount of time in a place that will cause that brother or sister to scream in pain from a fire that will continuously burn their bodys has no witness of GOOD NEWS.

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:38:13 AM
Romans 2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

1 John 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Are you saying you are sinless?

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:27:03 AM

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Travis, we are believers.   

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 04:02:21 PM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:27:03 AM

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Travis, we are believers.

Amen

Quote from: Cardinal on November 19, 2010, 07:12:58 AM
:cloud9: Hi Travis....long time, no read.  :winkgrin: Wondered what happened to you.  :dontknow: How've you been?

I have been well.

You state you're well, however, your words reveal conflict.

The only True Peace is found within Him; not without.

QuoteJohn 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everyone shall believe, everyone shall confess his name, everyone shall bow, worship, reverence, adore, praise, and magnify the Lord in Spirit and in Truth.

Every tongue shall confess, every knee shall bow, every one shall say he is the Lord - this can only be done by the Spirit, and only the saved have the Spirit.

Only worship that is done in Spirit and in Truth is acceptable to the Lord.

Everyone will have the Spirit, everyone will worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Indeed God so loved the world - none will perish.

God wills for all mankind to be saved, God will have his will, God will not be thwarted, God never fails.

Quote17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Excellent, Christ was not sent to sentence the world, but to deliver it.

Quote18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This verse is clear - sentenced already, the unsaved person is already lost, he can't become "more lost", or "eternally lost" - There is nothing that can come between God almighty, and his will, and his children who are everyone.

Those without Christ, are already sentenced, and sentence themselves under guilt, and condemnation - when we are freed to Christ, we are free from that dwelling of ours in guilt, and condemnation.

We're pulled out of the muck, and put on solid ground.

Quote19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

All of us have been this once.

Quote20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

All of us continue to do this.

Quote21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Everyone shall come to the knowledge of the Truth.

QuoteJohn 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Indeed it does, providing they never believe - it never says they will never believe.  It says everyone will confess, bow, praise, and call the name of the Lord, see Revelation for the pertaining verses.

QuoteRomans 2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Righteous judgement is not meaningless, vindictive, unremedial, ceaseless, abusive, godless (literaly) infliction of pain, torment, and torture, without end.

Quote1 John 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Indeed.

Quote8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

And he will not fail.  One of the works of the devil was separating Humankind (Adam) from God.  No one will be left behind.

Quote9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Okay.

Quote10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Then perhaps we should go out and do bear good fruit instead of preaching eternal vindictive Hell which makes people turn away from Christ, because they find it ludicrous, and for good reason.

Quote11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

The world however, will respond to Love and all will be made beautiful in His due time.

QuoteMatthew 13:37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

No mention is said of how long the tares shall burn.  Our God is an all consuming fire who purifies the dross, and refines.

Indeed the very word "Castise" in the verse I provided earlier speaks volumes for itself - providing that the Bible is consistent as I'm sure we both believe.

QuoteMatthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Aionian fire that lasts as long as it needs to last.

QuoteJohn 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And everyone will take that way.  God is not so easily vexed, or beaten by mere physical death...we have the resurrection to prove it.

QuoteActs 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls

Excellent, God is powerful, amen.

__ __ __

QuoteI have provided some verses, whether or not these are sufficient for your purposes Lefein, I cannot say. I would also recommend that every person read the scriptures for themselves. If you have more questions I may not answer to your satisfaction.

They are sufficient.  I will most likely go through the original Koine Greek on most of them.

As for questions, my questions are usually simple, if I can help it.  I'm sure you'll try to answer them to my satisfaction.

QuoteI will continue to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ at this forum so long as I can.

I am looking forward to seeing how you present Christ being the Saviour of the world like he says he is.

Travis, in your answer to me you gave your opinion on what you understand to be "universalism" vs. the "true gospel".   Since you apparently believe you understand this, and have the true gospel, will you answer me this?

Are you affiliated with a denomination now, and if so, which one?  And if not, with what "group" do you align yourself, i.e., charismatic, independent baptist, etc.  (I'll answer appropriate questions you may ask of me, if that will help you answer this).

Also, you're getting some very good Biblical, Spirit-revealed responses to your assertions.  Are you listening as well, or are you just here to spam with your own level of understanding?  I.e., are you open to God showing you anything further than exactly what you've currently settled on, or set in concrete so here to convince those already believing on Jesus that they're not believers?  There are surely guests that come by, and perhaps a few members who aren't re-born believers, but mostly, you're talking to saved people when you're proselytizing the membership. 

So what's your point, because it sounds like you may be generally judging (treating) people who believe in UR as not being saved?

Thanks, James.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 07:44:33 AM

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 04:06:59 AM
  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Oh, I guess I misspoke,  Travis agrees with us after all, since he is going to talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ of which is what goes on here everyday.

MY BAD.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:53:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 07:22:38 AM
Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should write that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

I did not tell you that "I think you should not write that"!  I gave LOGICAL information... which you are welcome to ignore...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 08:02:35 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:53:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 07:22:38 AM
Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should say that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

You really have nothing to defend.  WillieH believes in Jesus as Saviour, so do I, and most likely anyone you encounter here that agrees with the basics of what Tentmaker wants to share to the world does too.

What exactly is it about tentmaker and our belief that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus is the only way causes you to think you need to defend your faith?

Again...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 08:11:26 PM
There are surely guests that come by, and perhaps a few members who aren't re-born believers, but mostly, you're talking to saved people when you're proselytizing the membership.

:cloud9: Amen to that.... :thumbsup:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 03:02:28 AM
Hello, I'm Travis. I used to post on this forum quite a bit as username arcticmonster2003. I see that account is a guest account so I decided to make a new account, I don't like that old username anyway. I used to believe in some form of universalism, I have repented of that.

I am a Christian. I live in Alaska.

Universalism is a false teaching. My reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

Hi Travis, and welcome.   Like you, I do not believe universal salvation is Truth. 

I just want to encourage you to be very honest with yourself and consider why you are here.  Gently, may I offer my story?  I have discussed universal salvation with others for many years at other sites, and read here at TM as well.  I finally joined TM and you know, the honest reason that I did join this board is because deep-down I kept thinking that someone, somewhere, would finally say *something* that would click with me, and I would finally be able to really believe universal salvation was true.  I was counting on this happening ... and then the LORD sent a conviction to my heart that was very humbling.

I won't go into detail, but to my shame I realized I was so certain this would happen that I had stopped praying for others as I ought to ... I wasn't even praying for my own children, not even for their salvation. I was so obsessessed that I allowed myself to be distracted.  The LORD has spent years teaching me and preparing to pray for others because that is SO important ... and here I was instead, utterly neglecting the work HE has given to me to do.

I just want you to think about your purpose here - be honest with yourself and make sure this is not an obsession.  I don't mean any of this "against" the good people here - I know they love our LORD, and I still like to chime in and discuss some things here or offer a different viewpoint. 

I don't know if my experience is anything you can learn from, but I felt compelled to share with you and wish you well. 

willieH: Hi "travis"...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 08:13:28 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 08:02:35 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 07:53:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on November 19, 2010, 07:22:38 AM
Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should say that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

You really have nothing to defend.  WillieH believes in Jesus as Saviour, so do I, and most likely anyone you encounter here that agrees with the basics of what Tentmaker wants to share to the world does too.

What exactly is it about tentmaker and our belief that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus is the only way causes you to think you need to defend your faith?

The best that I can tell, Willie seemed to have some issue with me referring to Jesus Christ as God when I wrote that Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

I have no "issue" with it at all, ...I disagree with you AND your positional belief.  :dontknow: 

But as Paul H. has said (and I agree with him)... I do not therefore believe that you are or will not be "saved"... If you believe in the name of CHRIST  and have called upon it from your heart, then the peripherals just have to do with the spreading of TRUTH or not... they are not "salavation issues" as most Christian churches like to put it!  :laughing7:

Churches and theologians put up "requirements" to be "saved"... as if THEY decide who shall be saved and how... :rolleye: 

SAVING men from and out of DEATH is the WORK of GOD, not men... but if men are submitted to GOD, then they have the potential to be involved in that work or not... which as well, is the call of GOD, not men anyway. :nod:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 08:13:28 AMMy faith is that God became a man an lived a perfect sinless life and died on the cross for our sins and was raised again three days later so that whosoever believes in him for forgiveness of sins and salvation will be saved.

That you have placed within your own personal "statement of faith" that God "became a man" is not the relevent portion of it.  That you believe that CHRIST died for your sins, and have acknowledged that He DID this and is the SON of GOD, in your heart, ...is!  -- Rom 10:9 -- Rom 14:11 --  Phil 2:11 -- 1 John 4:15

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 08:13:28 AMJesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

:JCThink: ...ah... oh yeah, ...that is your position as we already know.   :nod:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 08:13:28 AMWillie seemed to have some issue with the "God" part of that sentence.

No "issue", -- :mnah: -- just disagreement, ...which disagreement was logically and Scripturally presented to you and you have ignored it...  and I have no problem whatsoever with your holding your position.  :happygrin:

CHRIST  is an UNCHANGING and ETERNAL entity, and if He WAS the expressed IMAGE of God, then He IS ETERNALLY the EXPRESSED IMAGE of Him...

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 08:22:20 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 19, 2010, 08:13:17 AM
We preach Christ here, so rejoice.......

Out of 267 members, including Travis, I'd guess 99%+ believe Jesus is God's Son, that He died for our sins and rose again, and that He is our Savior.   Isn't that supposed to be our common bond?

:thumbsup:

willieH: Hi "Travis"...  :happygrin:

Continuing my "catch-up" (not ketchup!  :laughing7:)

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 09:39:16 AM
Universalism seems to forget about the goats, or explain them away.

Matthew 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is in a SPIRITUAL writing/quotation... which CHRIST  spoke with on a continuous basis.  That YOU and most Christians take this writing in both SYMBOLIC and LITERAL observation together, proclaiming each according to WHIM, is IMO where the problems lie.

It is an entire discussion as to what the "sheep and goats" truly symbolize in this SPIRITUAL statement.  There are many things to consider in the observation of these words, which most Christians do not include, nor do they acknowledge... no point in going into detail about it in the "WELCOME Travis" thread.  :laughing7:

An ATHEIST (holding the position that there IS NO GOD), can and WILL come up with the very same deduction that YOU have, concerning "sheep and goats" by reading this passage. 

How can the deduction of the WORD, of an DISBELIEVER in the existence of CHRIST  (the WORD), therefore be considered TRUE?

The WORD of YHVH  is SPIRITUALLY discerned and understood. -- 1 Cor 2:14 --- The ATHEIST is not concerned with nor "believes" in a SPIRITUAL position... The WORD  itself elimnates UNDERSTANDING of SPIRITUAL text, by one who is in the NATURAL... which "ATHEISTS" most CERTAINLY are...  :dontknow:

Quote from: LS on November 19, 2010, 08:36:42 PM
I just want you to think about your purpose here - be honest with yourself and make sure this is not an obsession.  I don't mean any of this "against" the good people here - I know they love our LORD, and I still like to chime in and discuss some things here or offer a different viewpoint. 

I don't know if my experience is anything you can learn from, but I felt compelled to share with you and wish you well.

:thumbsup:

willieH: Hi LS...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: LS on November 19, 2010, 08:36:42 PM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 03:02:28 AM
Hello, I'm Travis. I used to post on this forum quite a bit as username arcticmonster2003. I see that account is a guest account so I decided to make a new account, I don't like that old username anyway. I used to believe in some form of universalism, I have repented of that.

I am a Christian. I live in Alaska.

Universalism is a false teaching. My reason for joining the forum is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God. My life is dedicated completely to Jesus Christ, he is my joy.

Hi Travis, and welcome.   Like you, I do not believe universal salvation is Truth.

Just because one "believes" this or that, does not necessarily make it so...  :happygrin: 

There are 4 Billion people on this earth that DO NOT "BELIEVE" in CHRIST... which immense NUMBER dwarfs the ones that do (and even further dwarfs the ones which are actively seeking Him in their lives)... so because there are MORE that DISBELIEVE in Him... is that a basis to abandon what we have come to KNOW?  :dontknow:

Quote from: LS on November 19, 2010, 08:36:42 PM
I just want to encourage you to be very honest with yourself and consider why you are here.  Gently, may I offer my story?  I have discussed universal salvation with others for many years at other sites, and read here at TM as well.  I finally joined TM and you know, the honest reason that I did join this board is because deep-down I kept thinking that someone, somewhere, would finally say *something* that would click with me, and I would finally be able to really believe universal salvation was true.  I was counting on this happening ... and then the LORD sent a conviction to my heart that was very humbling.

Some go throughout an entire LIFETIME 50-60-70-80 years, and at the very end of it and for a miniscule amount of time "believe" (compared to their period of DISBELIEF)... yet that small amount of time (almost insignificant to the total), still brings them to their SAVIOR!  :boogie: 

That you have yet to have the VEIL lifted, does not therefore mean that it is not in place concerning your present observations...  :dontknow:

QuoteI won't go into detail, but to my shame I realized I was so certain this would happen that I had stopped praying for others as I ought to ... I wasn't even praying for my own children, not even for their salvation. I was so obsessessed that I allowed myself to be distracted.  The LORD has spent years teaching me and preparing to pray for others because that is SO important ... and here I was instead, utterly neglecting the work HE has given to me to do.

That anyone is REVEALED to the Salvation of ALL, does not mean that they are to CEASE their prayer life.  We are instructed by the SAVIOR which we "believe" saves us... to pray.  There is no instruction given by Him that during the course of life, prayer CEASES to be necessary.  That YOU experienced a "lull" in this portion of your life, does not mean that the teaching of UR is therefore responsible for your lack.

That is just another version of passing the buck... and laying blame upon something outside yourself, for what YOU did or did not do, concerning your "beliefs"...  :sigh:

Quote from: LS on November 19, 2010, 08:36:42 PMI just want you to think about your purpose here - be honest with yourself and make sure this is not an obsession.  I don't mean any of this "against" the good people here - I know they love our LORD, and I still like to chime in and discuss some things here or offer a different viewpoint.

Very nice... we welcome anyone to the Tent... without DEMANDING they believe in UR.  There is an unsaid reciprocation of this practice necessary for those who do not believe in it.  :dontknow:

Quote from: LS on November 19, 2010, 08:36:42 PMI don't know if my experience is anything you can learn from, but I felt compelled to share with you and wish you well.

At least "Travis" has company...  Many are in transition in this life... that "Travis" and yourself are here in opposition of UR, does not mean that what you both "believe" at present, is "WRITTEN in STONE"... for if it is... then you have nothing left to learn from the Almighty.

In order to gain further enlightenment... we must continue to keep our hearts open to be filled, while holding true to ourselves and what we "believe" in the moment... Then as with PAUL on the road to Damascus... we can have an EYE "opening" experience that BLINDS us at the very same time!  :mshock:

Keep your hearts open to God,  LS... and "Travis"... your "eye -- opening/blindness" is yet to come!  :cloud9:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on November 19, 2010, 09:46:14 PM
Just because one "believes" this or that, does not necessarily make it so...

... Very nice... we welcome anyone to the Tent... without DEMANDING they believe in UR.  There is an unsaid reciprocation of this practice necessary for those who do not believe in it.  :dontknow:

If I have not reciprocated, my most sincere apologies. 

I take seriously the sentiments in this post (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/posting_as_i_understand_in_my_opinion.._8684.0.html) and make every attempt to simply present what I believe without being forceful or disrespectful to others.

Actually, that was part of the reason I'm asking Travis to reflect on why he is posting here and how he hopes to communicate with others - nobody likes a bully or being treated disrespectfully    :mblush:

I commend Brother Willie for mentioning that.

Some of the slander that crawls out of the pit onto this board is horrendous.

But, Jesus says that we will be persecuted for His name and thus we are.

What has always been amazing to me is, 99 percent of religion believes that eternal life is a gift from God but 99 percent believe we have to work for it in some way. Duh!!  If something is free why pray tell would you want to pay for it?

I look at it like this, if I owed the bank 100,000,00  for my house and my brother paid it for me, {which Jesus did} why would the bank keep sending me bills for it? If I went to the bank and kept trying to pay this loan that had already been paid, after a while they would call the men in white coats. Also wouldn't that prove I didn't trust that my brother had paid the loan? Isn't that what we do in the case of Christ dying for our sins?

Folks, it's a done deal. Wallow in it, shout it, be happy that we are saved, praise God. Don't try to make the salvation that Jesus paid his life for a burden to any one.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on November 20, 2010, 11:03:00 PM
What has always been amazing to me is, 99 percent of religion believes that eternal life is a gift from God but 99 percent believe we have to work for it in some way. Duh!!  If something is free why pray tell would you want to pay for it?

I look at it like this, if I owed the bank 100,000,00  for my house and my brother paid it for me, {which Jesus did} why would the bank keep sending me bills for it? If I went to the bank and kept trying to pay this loan that had already been paid, after a while they would call the men in white coats. Also wouldn't that prove I didn't trust that my brother had paid the loan? Isn't that what we do in the case of Christ dying for our sins?

Folks, it's a done deal. Wallow in it, shout it, be happy that we are saved, praise God. Don't try to make the salvation that Jesus paid his life for a burden to any one.

CHB

The typical analogy is I have 5 bucks in my hand and it is yours, all you have to do is accept it and take it.

It is the "taking it" that is not seen as a  "work".


An analogy I have used is that if someone pays my heating bill it is paid whether I accept it or not.   Chances are,  sooner or later in my area, I am going to want to turen the heat on.   :icon_jokercolor:

Paul, actually neither yours or my analogy is the best one because we both know what the prize, reward will be. Our anology is something we can see and have experienced. Not true with our salvation, no one can see nor really know what they are receiving because no one has experienced it that can tell us what we are accepting or rejecting. How can you reject or accept something that you don't understand or have experienced?

CHB

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2010, 08:11:26 PM
Travis, in your answer to me you gave your opinion on what you understand to be "universalism" vs. the "true gospel".   Since you apparently believe you understand this, and have the true gospel, will you answer me this?

Are you affiliated with a denomination now, and if so, which one?  And if not, with what "group" do you align yourself, i.e., charismatic, independent baptist, etc.  (I'll answer appropriate questions you may ask of me, if that will help you answer this).

Also, you're getting some very good Biblical, Spirit-revealed responses to your assertions.  Are you listening as well, or are you just here to spam with your own level of understanding?  I.e., are you open to God showing you anything further than exactly what you've currently settled on, or set in concrete so here to convince those already believing on Jesus that they're not believers?  There are surely guests that come by, and perhaps a few members who aren't re-born believers, but mostly, you're talking to saved people when you're proselytizing the membership. 

So what's your point, because it sounds like you may be generally judging (treating) people who believe in UR as not being saved?

Thanks, James.

I am not affiliated with any demonination. I am a Christian. Some of my favorite teachers are Scott Johnson http://www.contendingfortruth.com/  and Augusto Perez    http://www.thebyteshow.com/AugustoPerez.html

I am presenting the Gospel here because I don't remember people presenting the Gospel very often when I used to post here. Also, when I used to post here I was in quite a bit of sin, meaning bonds of sin, lifestyle types of sin, and I never felt challenged or worried about it too much. It wasn't until I really broke away from this forum and started listening to other teachings that I started really feeling the proper amount of conviction for my sins. Since, at that time, I believed in a form of universalism, I felt like everyone was going to heaven and so I put aside conviction I guess, or talked myself out of it. I guess you could say, I never had really repented of my sins, and so I seemed to be on a slippery slope. I was here in this condition, and so I believe it is fully possible there are others here at this forum in this condition. Plus, surely there are guests who read the posts here as well.

I came to present the Gospel here, because I felt like there are people here who need it. I like to present the Gospel, I have at other forums as well, for instance feel free to look at my post here: http://www.theforumsite.com/forum/topic/Repent-and-believe-in-Jesus-Christ/419321

I am not open to the universalism message because I believe that I have been shown that an eternal punishment exists for those whom die in their sins. I did believe in some form of universalism, and I was led out of that belief, and repented of it.

You are yet asleep. You may accept that as a cold or course remark, it is not. You need to stop and listen, if you have ears to hear. What Our Saviour has said to us, the Beloved, is not a message that leaves any from His Love. Jesus loved one and  Jesus loves ALL. When a person who believes in a Loving Jesus and can believe and love that same Jesus and yet still accept a doctrine that leaves even one soul out from under His all encompassing arms of love, knows nothing of the love of God.

Peace and Love Through Jesus     

PS that is not my  :2c: its LOVE

I'm going to have to ask plainly though - since you are proselytising to me even (are you not?).

Prove to me from the scriptures, that Ultimate Reconciliation, that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, and wills all men to be saved and shall have his will indeed; will fail in his will, task, and omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent endeavour.  Prove to me, preferentially from the original languages/manuscript languages, as these are the most accurate, and unbiased accounts we currently have that despite what the scriptures, and even the very title of Christ "Saviour of all men" says - that he is indeed not the "Saviour of all men" but is instead the "Saviour of a very tiny few compared to the rest of the billions who have lived and died without him".

How is it that God, who came in the flesh, one with the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent Father - who sees the end from the beginning, who sees trillions of years after the resurrection, and the judgement, and the giving of the son's kingdom to the Father - the Father who sees from trillions of years before the world was even formless and void, to the very edge of conceivable endlessness...Could call himself the Saviour of All Men, knowing full well from his position in the future beyond reckoning that he will indeed not save all men, but only the elect few - and not be bearing false witness, lying?

Knowing all of this, God's all knowing nature - in light of all of this, why would God having known that the vast majority of his images, his likenesses would be eternally sinful, eternally tortured, eternally separated from Him - which hurts HIM, as much, and more than it hurts even the sinner - how could he have said through the Apostle by means of the inspiration of his Holy Spirit;

1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God's will is for all men to be saved, his counsel shall stand, his will shall be done, and it is his pleasure that his will be done.

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
-
Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


John 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  (The very words of God incarnate himself, Jesus the Messiah, who was indeed lifted up on a cross)

So many times he has said "all men".  And it is even said by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit - the God-breathed scriptures - that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men.

If Jesus did not save all men, he would not be the saviour of all men, and the omniscient, omnipresent God who sees the end from the beginning, would be bearing false witness in his own word, written or spoken.  Does the lord bear false witness?  No.  Does the Lord lie?  No he cannot lie, not in title, not in being, not in bearing false witness, and certainly not in his word.  As the Lord Liveth he is the Saviour of all men indeed, lest he be a false witness bearer, and a liar, and is really only the saviour of a few, a very small few...

Let us reason together, I am not asking for a sign from Heaven, I am being a good Berean, a Berean who searched the scriptures to see if the things you are saying are indeed true.  I want you to oblige, and prove to me that this Gospel (if you are willing to do so), this "good news" this "well message" that the vast majority of the human race, images of God, knit together in their mother's wombs - shall suffer so horribly in eternal damnation, and ceaseless torture, separated forever away from God, in Hell.

I do not mean to sound harsh, if I am coming across as such.  But this is certainly important enough, and important enough indeed not to let slip by in your mind to answer.  People will not fall so easily to a mere advertisement of God, they will have questions, and they will want answers, and God is a God who answers...

If Hell is real, and surely it is not - here is how horrible it would inevitably be, and worse;  The rapist rapes and is raped, eternally, without end, without remorse, without intermission, no death to stop the violation of a person's being, while they violate, perpetually, exponentially, ever perfecting their already dark perfection into the long ages of eternity!  Ever hating, ever increasingly hateing, and ever increasingly lying, ever pursuing what cannot be true, ever running away from the omnipresent God - Such a thing is not sustainable!  Such a thing is impossible to exist, for if it came out of the mind of God to have created a place of such wordless horror, if he created this as a place knowing full well in his omnipresence, and omniscience that the many of the many of the multitudes of his creatures would dwell there plying their infamous wickedness before his very face for eternity and beyond - if he made this, he spoke it into being, and if he spoke it into being then this place of wicked torture came forth from his heart; for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and the Lord would be a God of Terror, the infinite God of infinite horrors, Molech en carne ad infinitum...The God of Hate, an unjust God.  No finite sin of man, though terrible indeed, deserves the punishment that is beyond even the very Law - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  Such a thing is not Grace, such a thing is untouchably vile.

...it just boggles the mind how such a thing as Hell could come forth from Love, Life, Truth, and Good.  It cannot.  God is not the creator of wickedness.

God is just, and a righteous judge.  Hell is not righteous judgement, it is not lawful - it is beyond the scope of God's being to have made such a terror for his creatures to dwell forever within, ever sinning.

God will not put up with sin forever.  He cannot put up with sin forever.  Hell is the 100% assurance that sin will remain forever, and increase evermore.

Hell is a doctrine out of the pit of itself - a devil's doctrine, it is another Gospel, a false Gospel, a wicked message, and a demon's delight.

Every tongue shall confess, every knee shall bow, everyone will come to the full knowledge of The Truth, Jesus who is The Truth, the life, and the way to these things, he who is Love incarnate.  They will know Truth, they will know Jesus, they will know Love, Life, God, they will praise him, they will confess his name, they will bow to him, they will worship him, they can only do this by the Spirit - they shall have the Spirit, they shall be saved!  They being saved have no place in Hell.

God shall be All in All.  Thus saith the Lord!

The Love Of God speaks more loudly than any debate would cause a change of mind. This one verse is but one of many, if you doubt it, you prove He will or cannot make this verse as a Truth.

1Co 15:22  For, just as, in the Adam, all die, so, also, in the Christ, shall all be made alive.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Thanks for asnwering Travis.  Now please be kind enough to diligently consider the replies.  James.

Quote from: Travis on November 21, 2010, 08:27:35 AM
[I am presenting the Gospel here because I don't remember people presenting the Gospel very often when I used to post here. Also, when I used to post here I was in quite a bit of sin, meaning bonds of sin, lifestyle types of sin, and I never felt challenged or worried about it too much. It wasn't until I really broke away from this forum and started listening to other teachings that I started really feeling the proper amount of conviction for my sins. Since, at that time, I believed in a form of universalism, I felt like everyone was going to heaven and so I put aside conviction I guess, or talked myself out of it. I guess you could say, I never had really repented of my sins, and so I seemed to be on a slippery slope. I was here in this condition, and so I believe it is fully possible there are others here at this forum in this condition. Plus, surely there are guests who read the posts here as well.

I came to present the Gospel here, because I felt like there are people here who need it. I like to present the Gospel, I have at other forums as well, for instance feel free to look at my post here: http://www.theforumsite.com/forum/topic/Repent-and-believe-in-Jesus-Christ/419321

I am not open to the universalism message because I believe that I have been shown that an eternal punishment exists for those whom die in their sins. I did believe in some form of universalism, and I was led out of that belief, and repented of it.

You believe people here need to hear the gospel;  what specifically do you base that on?  That just about anywhere there are folks that aren't saved, or something specifically about this forum and/or its beliefs?

Also, since God led me out of ET, I find His Fire still burns hot in me, perhaps even hotter in some ways than when I was in ET - not because of me, my efforts or goodness etc. - but because He puts it there, and because He IS Who He IS.

Maybe you had a "wrong" idea about true Bible-based, Jesus-centered UR?  Did you believe it was an "anything goes, get out of hell free card"?  OTOH, how does living a life of obedience to the Lord now fit with ET?  Do you find the threat of ET is what makes you more obedient and/or diligent, or something else?

Thanks, James.

I am not affiliated with any demonination. I am a Christian. Some of my favorite teachers are Scott Johnson http://www.contendingfortruth.com/  and Augusto Perez    http://www.thebyteshow.com/AugustoPerez.html

I am presenting the Gospel here because I don't remember people presenting the Gospel very often when I used to post here. Also, when I used to post here I was in quite a bit of sin, meaning bonds of sin, lifestyle types of sin, and I never felt challenged or worried about it too much. It wasn't until I really broke away from this forum and started listening to other teachings that I started really feeling the proper amount of conviction for my sins. Since, at that time, I believed in a form of universalism, I felt like everyone was going to heaven and so I put aside conviction I guess, or talked myself out of it. I guess you could say, I never had really repented of my sins, and so I seemed to be on a slippery slope. I was here in this condition, and so I believe it is fully possible there are others here at this forum in this condition. Plus, surely there are guests who read the posts here as well.

I came to present the Gospel here, because I felt like there are people here who need it. I like to present the Gospel, I have at other forums as well, for instance feel free to look at my post here: http://www.theforumsite.com/forum/topic/Repent-and-believe-in-Jesus-Christ/419321

I am not open to the universalism message because I believe that I have been shown that an eternal punishment exists for those whom die in their sins. I did believe in some form of universalism, and I was led out of that belief, and repented of it.
Travis


Hello, one thing you have passion to present the gospel of Christ. But on that theforumsite did notice that the members there were not responding to the ET message? Did you notice that they were turning away from your message because of that threat.
People are blaspheming God these days because they hate him. But why do people hate a God of love?
A lot, but not all hate the ET message because it is not love, but it is evil, and everyone hates evil, there are not many fans of Hilter etc because the axis did evil things, such as killing people for no reason. Does God torture people for no reason?

Quote from: Travis on November 21, 2010, 08:27:35 AM
I am not open to the universalism message because I believe that I have been shown that an eternal punishment exists for those whom die in their sins. I did believe in some form of universalism, and I was led out of that belief, and repented of it.

Travis, whether you realize it or not, statements like you're making can be made from any point of view, they are empty.   I can say the same thing.   I have been shown that eternal punishment does not exist for those whom die in their sins.  I did believe in some form of eternal punishment and I was led out of that believe and repented of it.

It carries as much weight if I use that.   If you try to use some form of pascals wager in response the issue is whether your brand of the "gospel" actually can be demonstrated to save you as opposed to another brand of the Gospel that applies different conditions on salvation.

For instance. Do you believe that if you never speak in tongues that you aren't saved?  You might say that tongues is not a requirement for salvation, but some who preach the gospel will say that being filled with the Holy Spirit is a requirement of salvation and that manifests in speaking in tongues, then there is a determination between just babble and a genuine manifestation of a spiritual language.   

I point this out because,  you could simply be bringing a false gospel that you have been deceived into believing and do not truly offer the way to salvation.

To me this isn't about Universalism vs the "real" gospel as you imply here.  It is about whether your beliefs actually save anyone.

The reason is because if you do not respect the fact that we believe in Jesus Christ, then your own belief in Jesus Christ is as easily suspect as false.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 22, 2010, 07:19:06 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 21, 2010, 08:27:35 AM
I am not open to the universalism message because I believe that I have been shown that an eternal punishment exists for those whom die in their sins. I did believe in some form of universalism, and I was led out of that belief, and repented of it.

Travis, whether you realize it or not, statements like you're making can be made from any point of view, they are empty.   I can say the same thing.   I have been shown that eternal punishment does not exist for those whom die in their sins.  I did believe in some form of eternal punishment and I was led out of that believe and repented of it.

It carries as much weight if I use that.   If you try to use some form of pascals wager in response the issue is whether your brand of the "gospel" actually can be demonstrated to save you as opposed to another brand of the Gospel that applies different conditions on salvation.

For instance. Do you believe that if you never speak in tongues that you aren't saved?  You might say that tongues is not a requirement for salvation, but some who preach the gospel will say that being filled with the Holy Spirit is a requirement of salvation and that manifests in speaking in tongues, then there is a determination between just babble and a genuine manifestation of a spiritual language.   

I point this out because,  you could simply be bringing a false gospel that you have been deceived into believing and do not truly offer the way to salvation.

To me this isn't about Universalism vs the "real" gospel as you imply here.  It is about whether your beliefs actually save anyone.

The reason is because if you do not respect the fact that we believe in Jesus Christ, then your own belief in Jesus Christ is as easily suspect as false.

:2thumbs:

I hate it when I look at the latest post and all I see is a thumbs up  :laughing7:  I come all this way, just to see a thumbs up  :laughing7: . I'm not against it mind you, I think encouragment is a very good thing, as long as it's good.

Quote from: thinktank on November 22, 2010, 09:37:44 PM
I hate it when I look at the latest post and all I see is a thumbs up  :laughing7:  I come all this way, just to see a thumbs up  :laughing7: . I'm not against it mind you, I think encouragment is a very good thing, as long as it's good.

:thumbsup:


:happy3:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 22, 2010, 09:38:32 PM

Quote from: thinktank on November 22, 2010, 09:37:44 PM
I hate it when I look at the latest post and all I see is a thumbs up  :laughing7:  I come all this way, just to see a thumbs up  :laughing7: . I'm not against it mind you, I think encouragment is a very good thing, as long as it's good.

:thumbsup:


:happy3:

:LH:

 :thumbsup: :laughing7:

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 06:54:08 AM


I'll present the Gospel of Jesus Christ here at the forum. My desire is that souls will be saved.

Hi Travis, welcome!

Have you considered that God's desire is that souls will be saved as well?  Does God fail at achieving His desire?  That is what orthodoxy teaches.

Quote from: willieH on November 19, 2010, 09:24:57 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 09:18:30 AMUniversalism says all shall find the way eventually.

That is NOT AT ALL what it says "Travis"...

Universalism is the belief that the SHEPHERD finds ALL the LOST SHEEP... for it is not up to the SHEEP to "deliver" themselves... it is up to the SHEPHERD to FIND that which was LOST -- Luke 15:32 -- Luke 15:4

willieH  :cloud9:

Heard this the other day.  Someone said:
"I've found Jesus!"

Another replied:
:dontknow:"Hallelujah, I didn't know He was lost!"   :laughing7:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 19, 2010, 04:00:56 PM
It has been on my mind to start a thread on the question Lefien asked, where in the Bible does it say what the gospel is?
Travis responded with John3:16 but, Jesus did not come preaching John 3:16, so what is the Gospel-Good News?
One thing I know is that knowing that one human brother or sister that will spend a neverending amount of time in a place that will cause that brother or sister to scream in pain from a fire that will continuously burn their bodys has no witness of GOOD NEWS.

Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.

So did this good news the shepherds heard include the fact that many billions of people were already burning forever, but 'good news' you can be saved!?  Would this bring great joy for all the people?

I think the simplest definition of the gospel is simply 'good news'.  And the best good news is the idea of all people being restored, reconciled, and saved. 

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 10:40:35 AM
Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 13:37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Travis, have you studied a bit on what universal salvation is about?  The 'eternal damnation view' of all these verses you have presented has been debunked in many many articles.  There are even varying interpretations - all of which have nothing to do with eternal torment.

It might be wise to do a bit of reading and see how these verses can fit with universal salvation.  There have been many studies and articles done on this, a good start would be by going through the scholar's corner here on tentmaker:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

You aren't raising any question that hasn't already been answered...

Oh yeah I forgot to say:


:thumbsup:  :winkgrin:  :happy3:

It is unfortunate, and sad that people are more concerned about being afraid of Hell, than they are about loving God.

Just who are we reverencing, fearing with reverential awe here?  Hell, or Love?

With what Spirit have we been endowed?  The Spirit of Fear?  Or the Spirit of Peace?

Alas!  We call on the name of God, and out of the spirit of fear, and the fear of Hell liken him more to Molech than Yeshua.  Raising up an idol in the Holy of Holies, a god who burns his children, passing them through the deadly fire to be a sacrifice for the appeasement of his bloody sense of justice, never to come out; Tear down this Molech children of God, and turn back to the loving Father we know he is.

Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 10:51:27 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 19, 2010, 09:24:57 AM

Quote from: Travis on November 19, 2010, 09:18:30 AMUniversalism says all shall find the way eventually.

That is NOT AT ALL what it says "Travis"...

Universalism is the belief that the SHEPHERD finds ALL the LOST SHEEP... for it is not up to the SHEEP to "deliver" themselves... it is up to the SHEPHERD to FIND that which was LOST -- Luke 15:32 -- Luke 15:4

willieH  :cloud9:

Heard this the other day.  Someone said:
"I've found Jesus!"

Another replied:
:dontknow:"Hallelujah, I didn't know He was lost!"   :laughing7:

:mlaugh:

Excellent!