I was raised in A/G - hardcore fire and brimstone, OMG, I'll lose my salvation if I sneeze wrong... etc...
Over the past couple of years, I've been enlitened to see that "the church" at large is lame, and that Christ's "Church" is you and I... not a building or congregation..
I'm trying to understand the "no hell thing", however, there are some passages in the Bible which I'm still trying to work thru on it..
Hi! Welcome to Tentmaker.
Feel free to ask all of the questions that you've got and/or to just come by everyday and read everything posted. This really does simply boil down to a KJV that as it's currently translated has a contradiction between 100 to 300 promises of a Universal Restoration/Universal Blessing and ETERNAL punishments, destruction, etc. Your two choices are to limit the promises and say that God's judgments are as eternal and as severe as the good ol' KJV would lead one to believe. Or, and what we've chosen to do, is to be honest with the Hebrew and Greek text of the Bible and realize that it tells an entirely different story of limited duration of punishment, whether we're talking about post mortem corrections or whether we're talking about punishments limited to this life. There's not a universal consensus on these things. Like everything else you'll have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling 'cause any number of us could sound 100% right, until you see what somebody else has posted :laughing7: At least, at first, while you're finding your footing.
4 words that get mistranslated as Hell in the good ol' KJV are Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus, and Hades.
Sheol in the Old Testament is the equivalent of the New Testament word "Hades" and simply means the grave, the unknown, the imperceptible.
Gehenna was the trash dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem in ancient times and it seemed to continually be on fire. I don't know if the area was supposed to be volcanic or had some underground gases or if flamable stuff was just constantly dumped there. I've heard that it was always on fire, but nobody's ever seemed to have said "why." But it's been without any flames since at least the second or third century A.D. according to a footnote in my Scarlett's New Testament from 1798.
Tartarus is the realm, the holding place, or perhaps the chains that fallen angels are bound by. Tartarus is only brought up once in Peter's writings.
Gehenna seems to constantly come up between Jesus and the Pharisees when it came to their false doctrines, false beliefs, and their imposition of their false traditions upon others. So it seems to either be the punishment for, the consequences of, or the means by which God reclaims from error. Some say that the Gehenna judgment was specifically the judgment that befell Jerusalem in 70AD and that therefore, those particular references in Scripture don't really have a modern application. I personally lean towards those passages still having relevance because we've got false traditions today. And there's one reference to Gehenna outside of the Gospels in James chapter 3, which some could argue as having been written pre-70A.D., but I believe that there are principles in that chapter with regards to "Gehenna" that are universally applicable.
The Matthew 25 judgment of the sheep, goats, devil, and his angels seems to be an equivalent of the Tartarus judgment, of the 1Corinthians 5 judgment, and the Lake of Fire judgment. The one common thread between each of those is a burning judgment for your works.
So, Gehenna's the setting on fire of the course of nature, according to James chapter 3, for using the tongue incorrectly up to and including false doctrine. And the Tartarus, or Lake of Fire judgment seem works related. So:
Gehenna = doctrine/words/wrong paradigm
Lake of Fire/Tartarus/Sheep, goats, devil, and his angels/1Cor 5 = works judgments
Sheol/Hades = ashes to ashes, dust to dust
And then beyond that, there's the issue of "eternity" and proofs for "destruction" not being of such a nature that one can't be reclaimed from it at a later time.
I personally believe that the Old Testament is full of examples of people that were judged for their deeds to where the judgment came upon their descendants. In Judges chapter 21 it says that the tribe of Benjamin was "cut off" and in that example, the men simply didn't have ANY women to marry. Afterlife punishment in the Old Testament was always about what came upon you, your tribe, and your seed in this life. If sufficient punishment wasn't dished out in your life, then the iniquity was visited to the third and fourth generation so that God could eradicate that iniquity. There aren't any references in the Old Testament to things befalling people after they died, or to things "waiting" for people after they died. Such a big Old Testament, and that's strangely missing. An odd passage in Zechariah and the Psalms here and there, but nothing with clarity about afterlife judgments. I like staying out of speculation and gray areas in Scripture and simply going with what we can know with assurance from the Scriptures.
Psalm 90 says that God turns man to destruction so that He can call him back from it. Psalm 103 says that God redeems men's lives from destruction. Ezekiel mentions some destructive judgments that were to befall some people SO THAT THEY'D KNOW that He alone was The Lord. By whatever means that God chooses to get His knowledge over to people, you still can't help but see something redemptive in promises/threatenings to people that they're going to know Him, if you stick around here very long. In Ezekiel, He was going to bring soooo much upon them so that they'd KNOW He was the Lord. Zephaniah and Isaiah have similar promises when it comes to Him distinguishing Himself in the eyes of pagans with false gods. He loves us all and is going to rip away the darkness that's covered the eyes of all of the people. He's prepared a banquet for all.
Hopefully, I haven't lost you or anyone reading this so far.
Read the three verses that are in the signature of my post for really great promises of the Universal Restoration:
Welcome trying,
May God bless your understanding as you seek Him...
blessings,
- Byron
Hi Trying . . .
Just noticed your post . .. thought I'd give you my end of it as well. I didn't come to where I am with it like the others . . I came to it through the book of Revelation . .. when I saw that hell was thrown into the lake of fire, that told me, hell was not a permanant place . .which became the writing on the wall for my doctrine of what it actually was.
The lake of fire, just like the rest of Revelation (the book) is connected to the tabernacle. It is the frame-work of the revelation of Jesus. Want to learn the book of Revelation and what it really means? Go to the tabernacle . .that's the type and shadow. In it you'll find the laver . . .it's where the blood of the sacrifice is washed from the priests hands . . .the lake of fire is what purifies the imperfections . .the flesh, the "blood" of the destructive nature your carnal man is . . .or was.
If hell is thrown into the lake of fire, then that tells me that all things will go through a purification . .and all things will be purified . .every person, every soul. Once I got through that barrier, it then occurred to me . . .to convince one that there is a hell of destruction for permanent torment is mind control. Which takes you to Genesis . .where Eve "desired" after her husband. This is not a good thing . . .this is God passing judement down on Eve . .not all women, but your mind. As I'm sure all are fully aware, Eve is your mind and God is saying "your mind will desire after . . .always want control of . .. your spirit. But then he says "Adam will rule over you" Paul puts it another way in 2 Corinthians 10 . . "take captive your thoughts"
I just recently have seen that my mind indeed was taken captive . . .by he to led captivity captive. In Revelation 6 it speaks of the 5th seal being opened and beneath the altar . . another reference of Moses Tabernacle again . . .the "martyred souls" cry out for two things, one they want to know how much longer they must remain there and, how much longer before vengeance is carried out against those who killed them. So the first is telling me, they're being "held" there in "captivity". The second is telling me . .. that's the carnal mind talking . . ."it" wants to see vengeance done on the one who separated it from it's body . . . if it's in heaven, why would it still be that way? Because that's the "nature" of man . .always "self-conscious", never "God-conscious".
But then Jesus does a beautiful thing . . .he gives them a white robe . . .a covering of purity . .and instructs them to "rest" a little longer . . .we are in the Day of rest as we speak. These are the days of Noah (Noah means rest) and there's been a changing of the guard in the heavens. The Son has come to rest on the 6th day church and he's resurrecting up a New Day . .a New Church with a New Message . . .not to God but it is to this generation . . .and that is "Rest". That's why you have this desire to "try" to understand . .that came from the throne.
But it's not for your head, it's for your heart. Once you let your head rest on the stone, your ear will hear the stones message to your spirit. Lay your mind down, let your spirit hear, and it's in this alignment . .. Spirit, soul, then body, that your belly will begin flowing out a river of life.
Blessings.
:icon_flower: hi trying! I come from a mixed background, but spent most of my 50 years in an AG church....
the Truth sets us free....in every way!
Joyce :)
Hey my friend,
Take time to spend some time outdoors in His creation, where everything is simply beautiful and in harmony. Watch the birds... listen to the wind... follow the path of the ants.. smell the air...sit under a tree. Be still. I find more answers when I'm out in His creation, just being still... sitting in the grass. Most stuff... we already know it. It's in our heart already. It always HAS been... since the beginning. Finding truth is much simpler than people make it out to be. The truth is within. Just waiting for us to discover it... God loves us all infinitely more than we all ever dreamed..
peace to you...
and good luck on your journey.
love,
sparrow
I do all of that . . .and carry a bow! (Eye . . .hunt.) :laughing7: :laughing7:
Hi trying,
We have some common background because I used to be in the AG. I was an AG minister from 2000-2007. I resigned from the AG because of changes in my eschatology, for example, I see that Jeremiah and Ezekiel teach that all predictive prophecy such as end-time prophecy is conditional. And I see that 1 Peter teaches that Christ preached the Gospel to lost people in hell. You can check out more about my universalist views in the article linked to my signature.
Blessings,