Hello!

[moxieman]

     Hi.  I have really been blessed by this website for the past two years or so.  I am in my late 30s but have been a Christian most of my life.  I have had my struggles up and down with depression, much of it stemming from a fear of hell, lack of assurance of salvation, or weak faith.  About two years ago my Presbyterian pastor preached a sermon about an article in Christianity Today about a well known feminist who came to the faith after worrying about her loved ones spending eternity and hell and that sermon just ate and ate away at me and made me depressed.  I couldn't stop thinking, what an awful motivator for people to come to Christ!  What joy is there in the Gospel if you get in, but all your loved ones are ultimately lost?  I used to think that "universalism" was exclusively something non-Christians believed.  I had never heard of Trinitarian Universalism, Evangelical Universalism, or the fact that for the first three centuries of the early church universal reconciliation was the prevailing teaching!  Sites like these and great books like "Christ Triumphant" by Thomas Allin have opened the Scriptures for me in a way I have never seen before.  "For God so loved the world".... how can so many people miss that when followed by "for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."?  It is either explained away as "world" doesn't really mean "world" (Calvinism) or free will can trump God's will (Arminianism).  I find most Christians don't let this stuff bother them much and can disassociate mentally from the implications of eternal torment.  They know the love of God and emphasize that.  But many Christians suffer needlessly because this doctrine eats away at them subconsciously.  Others I believe are secret universalists, even within conservative Reformed and Fundamentalist churches.  I recently read a book called "Fundamorphisis" by a friend of mine from Bible college.  This guy was a strict 5-point Calvinist back in the day and now he is open to universal reconciliation.  I highly recommend this book by Robb Ryerse. 

     I don't see myself leaving my denomination any time soon because I believe most people in my church know the love of God in spite of, on paper, holding to a doctrine which contradicts it.  My pastor preaches things every Sunday that are totally in line with universal reconciliation even though he would profess 100% fidelity to the Westminster Confession. (Many denominations have strengths and weaknesses and I believe Presbyterianism's greatest strength is it's robust intellectual defense of the Christian faith with theological and philosophical brilliance) I believe there are secret universalists in my congregation.  If I'm one, there must be many more.  I pray for this ministry, that it would reach many people and continue to be faithful to the Scriptures!

[sheila]

  Greetings Moxie.  welcome to the forum.  Truly loving your neighbor/brother as yourself..just makes us rejoice at

  the salvation of all men!!!!the spirit discerns the motive and intensions of the heart..is it mere lipservice.. or are the

  lips speaking out of the hearts abundance.?  God knows!!!!!! every hidden thing will be revealed.

    Big welcome to you!  :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

Welcome!   :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu:

[rosered]

  Welcome  Moxieman !

 

[Tapioca]

Welcome, Moxieman.
Yeah, I understand your point of that eating at you. Five seconds of happy, then comes the "other stuff". Not a happy place to be.
I'm fond of saying to myself, "I am still packing my 4:10 shotgun." - meaning 1Tim. 4:10. I've heard that scripture "beheaded" (chopping the Head i.e. Savior, off) with - Savior of all but only a titular savior for those who don't believe. Terrible what the mind of man can do to things.
Anyway, welcome aboard!  :dsunny:

[moxieman]

On 1 Timothy 4:10, I looked up the Amplified Version.  This is interesting:

With a view to this we toil and strive, [yes and] [a]suffer reproach, because we have [fixed our] hope on the living God, Who is the Savior (Preserver, Maintainer, Deliverer) of all men, especially of those who believe (trust in, rely on, and adhere to Him).

A Savior is one who saves, preserves, maintains, and delivers ALL MEN- not one who makes salvation possible, conditional upon "free will."

[ed]

Very encouraging moxieman!

Thanks for sharing and welcome!

:banana:

[WhiteWings]

:welcome: :newb:

About two years ago my Presbyterian pastor preached a sermon about an article in Christianity Today about a well known feminist who came to the faith after worrying about her loved ones spending eternity and hell and that sermon just ate and ate away at me and made me depressed.  I couldn't stop thinking, what an awful motivator for people to come to Christ!

How can that feminist worry about hell without believing (came to faith)?
I wonder hell believers really came to faith. It's such a distorted view of Father and Son it seems  a very wrong faith to me.

I used to think that "universalism" was exclusively something non-Christians believed.

Stricktly speaking Universalism is a non-Christian thing.
But obviously there are also Christian versions with all have different names. You mentioned two of them, Trinitarian Universalism and Evangelical Universalism. Another one is Christian Universalism.I think that the term Gar, the owner of this site uses. Anyway the obvious difference with the Universalism is that the Christian ones have.... yep you guessed it, Christ at the very core of it.

It is either explained away as "world" doesn't really mean "world" (Calvinism)

Calvinism isn't entirely wrong because there is an elect. The bride, the overcomers. But they are wrong in believing it's placing people in a heaven or hell group.

or free will can trump God's will (Arminianism).

They are also partly right. Just look at how Israel disobeyed God using their free will. But evenually God's will prevails of man's will. And Israel was enslaved by the Egyptian against their free will.

I find most Christians don't let this stuff bother them much and can disassociate mentally from the implications of eternal torment.  They know the love of God and emphasize that.

Or just think they have the right fire insurrance. :winkgrin:

[jasman]

Great introduction Moxieman.  You have expressed many of the same feelings I have had, and I understand your interest in staying at your church.  It is so interesting that many Calvinist pastors say so many Universalist things from the pulpit.  They don't dare preach like Calvin himself, or Jonathan Edwards, or many of the "pillars of the church" I'm sure they hold in high esteem.  My lead pastor is a wonderful man of God, who I know believes in eternal hell.  I pray I might be a small part of helping him to come around.

Thanks for the post and welcome!  I'm going to check out the book you recommend.

I'm curious, are you from Massachusetts...hence the Moxie reference?

Jas