A Struggling Universalist(?) (consumed with fear)

[ChiniChani]

Hello,
My name is Bristol and I'm a 22 year old woman who's Universalist, but struggling with it. Reason: Legalistic "NDEs". If it weren't for them, I would be a firm Universalist. I'll tell you a bit about myself (leaving out the points I don't think is important) when it comes to beliefs. I'm going to release all my thoughts and fears on this post and I'm hoping that I won't scare anyone else either. It's not my intention. But I want to get my thoughts of  how my inner core feels out. And that I feel I have no hope of escape.

WARNING: LONG

So I started out as a Fundamentalist Christian from a young age to my earlier 20s. However, despite me not supposed to be obsessed about being perfect, I was still concerned with what is sinful and what isn't. I was a frequent on Got Questions. I was worried because I was (and still am) a hardcore gamer, I'm big on electronics, I like to watch YouTube very often. And I was wondering if they were sinful due to them being "of the world". It seems for a time it wasn't, but I did have to be careful with what KIND. However, I got more and more worried about sin for some strange reasons about other things that could be sinful, like idolizing things. Eventually I got concerned to the point, I wondered if Christians could end up in Hell, and my search lead me to an "NDE" (quotations intentional, as I don't know if it's real or fake) by a man named Carmelo Brenes (which I'm not getting any help reinterpreting or criticizing his NDE). His testimony is called "Christians Who Wound up in Hell", also dubbed "Rescued from Hell". Apparently it was originally in Spanish and translated to English. Anyway, it had me in an absolute fear spiral and it still does to this day. After watching the video I got on my knees and prayed to God for forgiveness and to not let me go to hell. It even got to the point I had to go outside to our backyard, it was raining at night, and I went inside the tool shed to desperately plead to God to not let me go to hell and perhaps tell me that NDE wasn't real. I was crying, and crying, and crying, and as I was praying, all the while I felt God wasn't listening to me or was rejecting me because I was still "in sin", almost as if He was saying "When you repent, believe in his testimony, change your life, and accept legalism is a fact, then I'll help you endure. But you cannot sin even once, or I will not hear. Be careful, for the smallest thing can land you in Hell in the hands of Satan, where I will not hear or save you ever again. Your life is in sin, you are worshiping worldly things even if you don't realize it. Repent now and come to Me before it's too late.". Even today when I pray to be released from this fear, I feel like He may still be saying that. Like He has no mercy on me and never will unless I repent and accept complete obedience of the law and accept Jesus as my savior before I die, else it'll be too late. What's worse, is I fear my loved ones may go there too and God won't care because they didn't get "purified" and lived a "holy life".

The question is, is He really saying that, or is it my delusional fears in my head saying that? Or perhaps a malicious discarnate human soul? (I'm trying to tear myself away from believing in Satan) No matter how I try to change my thought patterns, and no matter how much evidence against Carmelo's, Angelica Zambrano's, etc. I still fear that their testimonies may be true, and that I merely interpreted the Universalist and reincarnation lines in the Bible completely wrong and in a sinful way, that they never taught those things, that I've deluded myself to "water down" the Gospel and that I'm believing a lie because of a wrong interpretation. I feel God has His wrath set on me unless I repent and change my beliefs. The thing is, I'm determined to stay a Universalist. I came across positive NDEs and other, less legalistic negative NDEs, with everyone coming away that Jesus will eventually save everyone, which I desperately want to firmly believe. But then Carmelo and Angelica come up again, and it's another spiral. Even as I type, I'm fearing right now. I sometimes feel like the NDEs of people coming out as Spiritual or Universal are Satanic, and the legalistic ones from Carmelo and the likes are of God to "warn the world.", that the loving NDEs are people on the wide path to Hell as most people have them, and scary NDEs are of the narrow path to Heaven as very little people have them. That the love Jesus has was a lying interpretation, that Jesus' real love is that of obeying his commands, not that warm, fuzzy, and caring feeling we have. I keep praying for God to reveal the truth, and I almost feel as if He's saying that legalism is the truth and that I'm just deluding myself into Universalism and positive NDEs. That I've bought Satan's most successful lie and biggest of all the worlds and universe. That God allows this for a reason. God allows Satan to work more than God does Himself to leech out the "sheep from the goats". That memories of past lives are of demons and Satan implanting false memories, dreams, and visions in all of us. That Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive us all.

But then I get that other more loving voice in my head saying to not fear, perfect love casts out fear, my interpretations of reincarnation and Universalism are in fact correct. It keeps reminding me of Bible verses, archeological evidence, and genuine loving NDEs that most people have, that I will be in the presence of Him, and that eventually everyone will. That the true "narrow path" is that of perfect love, and that sometimes we have to reincarnate to accomplish that. Reincarnation is of God, our memories are real, Universalism is the truth, the fruit of the Spirit is how Paul described them, the Being of Light and unconditional love in NDEs is of God, not Satan. Satan can't produce these miracles of goodness. Satan can masquerade as an angel of light, but that doesn't mean he can actually simulate God's love and light. And perhaps, there isn't even a Satan. It's our lower beastly unevolved natures that we have to conquer overtime. That the sin, Hell, and Satan is that of our own creations. The scary NDEs of Carmelo and Angelica are either fake, or have to be reinterpreted spiritually, as they had the NDEs because they believed in that form of religion. That God is trying to tell me He's revealed the real truth to me, and that is salvation for all.

But then I automatically think demons or Satan himself is simulating that loving voice to deceive me and pull me off the narrow path like the legalistic NDErs say even though I try to convince myself it's just my anxiety, not the truth.

In a nutshell, there's strong evidence for Universalism and I want to stay in that group, but fear tells me it's all Satan's ploy and that he put the evidence there to lure us away. That everything is Satan except for what the legalists saw or say. I want to defeat this thought pattern, but no matter what I try, no matter how many times I reassure myself, something new comes up to scare me again. It's like something is absolutely determined to keep me holding on to my fearful thoughts. Do I have a discarnate/demon stuck on me? Is this God talking to me? I honestly can't tell, I'm completely two-minded about the whole thing. I can't tell what's Satanic (or of the lower beastly nature), or what's of God. I've tried. I've listened to other people's testimonies, I've read Bible verses, I've looked at positive NDEs, I've looked at studies, and I've looked at archeological evidence. NONE of it is convincing me out of my fear like it should(?). Does God really only care for legalists or does God care for us all? Is He really a wrathful King or a loving Father? Is Satan real or is it just my fear? Is the evidence true or did Satan materialize these objects?

I understand I'm possibly very deluded and may have a delusional disorder as a result of all this fear. But what if my fear's justified? I feel I'm not getting a clear answer and that God's not going to change it. I keep praying for perhaps an NDE, none comes. Testing the fruits of the Holy Spirit to people's or God's work doesn't work for me. I've been even trying to have peace and accept my fate that I could go to Hell and be tortured for all eternity by demons. But I remember the contents of Hell, and I'm scared again. I can't find peace, I can't find reassurance, I can't know for sure what's right or wrong. I can't tell which voice in my mind is of God/Jesus or anxiety/discarnates/demons/devil.

As you can tell, I'm extremely trapped and I've not been given a solution. I don't trust getting cognitive behavioral therapy as the only thing that'll enter my head is Satan putting me back in the peaceful lie. I don't know what to do. I feel this will go on until I die and I either go to Hell forever, temporarily, or to Heaven. I feel when I want to rant to God and when I do, saying I'm having trouble believing he's this wrathful person who will let most people fall into Hell, I just get this fearful message in my head "That's your problem."

I don't know what to believe. I'm suffering, and there's no retribution or hope for me. I've gotten a very gothic personality as a result when my fear kicks in. I'm very gloomy most of the time now and I feel God declares that's a good thing I feel that way as it's indicating I'm still living in sin. I've gotten in contact with Kevin Williams of Near-Death (dot) com, of Nancy Evans Bush of IANDS, a couple people who had positive NDEs, and NOTHING is doing anything (what I call) good for me. I want to be a Universalist and I want God to be the God I hope He is of unconditional, universal love and universal salvation of all people. I want the evidence of universal salvation and no Satan to be God's truth. But I don't know if it is. This cycle has been going on for months, and it may even be a year soon.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Lots of love,
-Bristol

P.S. I don't know if it'll be any help but I did have a dream that has never left my head. I can't tell if it's of God or Satan.

I dreamt of Jesus. We were hiding from the Romans and later at one point after we successfully hid I sat with him with another normal man doing the bread and wine thing like Jesus did at the last supper. I think we might have had a sandwich too, I don't know, this dream was a while ago, I might be off. It was the sweetest wine I ever tasted and normally I don't like wine, it was almost like fruit punch, but I don't think he mentioned the body and blood of Christ like the Bible and church does. I got to just simply chat with him I think. Anyway, this happened twice. The second time there was a pretty looking woman sitting with him instead of some random man. I asked if I could run to the bathroom first and he was okay with it. I returned and the woman didn't seem happy. In fact she hated him, and tried to kill him by beheading him. I kept shouting and begging her to stop, but she either didn't listen or hear me. When she finished the job she ran off and for some reason it entered in my head she was on a hellish path I think. Maybe purification. Later Jesus came out and may have mentioned the man she just killed was a decoy? I don't know. I think so though.
Later I saw this huge wall of water and a portal to another location opening, kind of like the Exodus. Jesus then said "How much greater is your purpose." I knew he was speaking to me. Then I entered the portal and I was suddenly thrown towards some obstacles and a kinder man had to help me through it. We were successful. I saw loads of other traps practically almost right out of Tomb Raider. I was scared I'd have to do it, but either I wasn't supposed to do it yet or I'm just not required to do it. After that Jesus strangely jumped off a ledge, killing himself in the process. He may have been smiling, not sure. Then my dream transitioned into something else weird my mind could conjure like most of my dreams do and I haven't had a dream like that since.

[Lazarus Short]

Bristol, welcome to the best little corner of the www!

Now to begin to answer your many questions, remember this first:  the Bible (properly translated) is a Reference Standard of Truth.  We will build on that.

Let's get reincarnation (aka, reincarceration) out of the way first.  When Jesus had his famous chat with Nicodemus, Nick asked if he needed to come out of his mother's womb a second time.  This set up the question of reincarnation, but Jesus did not take the bait.  Besides, the Bible says it is appointed for a man to die once, and then the judgment.  Besides that, I have noticed that most folks who believe in rebirth boast that they were somebody famous in a past life - but chances are they would have been some peasant 99+% of the time.  :doh:  That is why I am dismissive of reincarnation.

Near-Death Experiences - I found that the main props of Hell were fiction:

Dante's Inferno

Milton's Paradise Lost

Baxter's A Divine Vision of Hell.

I put NDE's in the same class - accounts that cannot be verified by anyone.  Fiction!  People who believe in Hell will have NDE's about Hell.  Garbage in, garbage out.  Simple.

Now, let's have a go at Satan.  I had been acquainted with Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism over the years, but  in the fall of 2014 I decided to plow through the KJV and make up my mind.  It took two years, and more on that later.  Along the way, I had some surprises, and one was that there is absolutely NO CONNECTION between Satan and Hell (even granted that Hell exists).  No, Satan operates on the Earth, just like demons.  I realized that Jonathan Edwards was flat wrong:  Satan cannot drag you down to Hell - it is just a fear tactic.  What I read in the Bible tells me that God keeps Satan on a short leash (see Job) and we see in chapter 20 of the Revelation that God takes Satan out of the way before both of the Judgments mentioned in the chapter - God is not going to listen to the "Prosecutor's Bench."  :footmouth: Jesus is the central figure of the Bible, not Satan.

Now, Hell.  "Hell" is translated from four terms, none of which refer to a place of eternal, conscious torment (ECT):

sheol - the Hebrew word for the realm of the dead, where the body returns to dust and the Spirit returns to God who gave it.  It is also translated as "grave" and "pit."

hades - the Greek equivalent of "sheol" but it carried some pagan baggage with it.

gehenna - a literal place in the literal world, where the trash was burned.

tartarus - another pagan Greek word, maybe referring to the abyss.  It was used only once in the Bible.

These four words were mistranslated by "hell," a word from the old languages of then-pagan norther Europe, as we see in Norse mythology with its goddess of the underworld Hel and her realm Helheim, a place you were supposed to go to if you did not rate Valhalla.  Over time, "hell" got blown up into something horrible, with no Biblical support whatever. 

In my two-year journey, book by book, chapter by chapter and verse by verse, through the KJV, which I also refer to as the "Standard Hell Version," I found a few points for Damnaionism and for Annihilationism, but the thesis of Universalism, or the Salvation of All, fit the text best, and by a wide margin.  I can't do better than to share my hard-won conclusions:

1.  There is no mention of Hell in God's Creation -  therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else.  See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of "heaven and earth" paired together...without "hell."

2.  In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence.  See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3.  The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan.  See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4.  God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil.  See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5.  The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell.  See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6.  The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man.  See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7.  God warns of death, but not of Hell.  See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.

8.  All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit.  See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with "hell" (if present) properly replaced with "sheol" or "hades," as so often noted in the CCR.

9.  For the Hebrews, "sheol," hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead.  It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it).  See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

10.  ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

11.  The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it.  Punishments are delivered in the real world.  See Exodus through Deuteronomy.

12.  All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell.  This includes destruction, perishing, God's wrath and His cursings.  See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

13.  Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living humanity.

14.  Hell violates God's Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free.  See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.

15.  The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous.  See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

16.  Hell, like Babylon, is confusion.  Hell is hot, but it's cold as...Hell.  Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark.  Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned.  To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you're dead, and on and on...

17.  God's plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell.  See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

18.  Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee.  See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.

19.  God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception.  See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

20.  God is both willing AND able to save all.  Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation.  See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

21.  God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap.  Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation.  Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God's Fire.  See  Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

22.  If God's Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature.  It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire.  See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

23.  Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God's Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word "hell," except in imperfect translations.

24.  When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404.  With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell.  See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

I hope this begins to help, and may the God of us all bless you!

[eaglesway]

The torment caused by the teaching of eternal punishment is widespread and detrimental at a devestating level to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The word "Hell" never occured in the scriptures until the 1500s and the connotation of flames did not attach to it until the Roman church translated "sheol"(the grave) to Inferno in the late fourth century.

I do not believe in re-incarnation. It is not necessary. We do not need multiple lifetimes to "get it right", The blood of Jesus is the only thing needed to "get it right". It is not our own "rightness" that saves us. It is the recognition of our "wrongness" that takes our lives out of our own hands and places it into His. It is seeing our own emptiness that opens the door to His fulness. Then love sits on the throne of our hearts, because He is subjecting the whole universe to His love as He teaches each and all the futility of self centeredness.

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

For those who come to know Jesus in this life, the blood of Jesus Christ and faith in Him is sufficient to admit us to eternal life. For those who do not, they will come to know Him, standing in His presence in the age to come, in the purifying fire of His love. As the knees bow they will be redeemed, reconciled and restored and God will become "all in all"(everything to everyone).


22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15

We have been taught that the subjection of adversaries leads to their eternal punishment, but this is not true, or scriptural, nor is it the declared plan of God.

Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Col 1

So we see that when every knee bows it is "to the glory of God the Father", not to eternal punishment.

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus testifies to this interpretation Himself

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32

SO we see that God will be all in all, that all men will be gathered into one in Christ, that all things are "from Him and through Him and to Him" and all things, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth will be reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross. The application of that receonciling blood is throu repentance and faith, and that occurs whenever someone calls upon the name of the Lord.

"For all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

"For there is one name given among men whereby they may be saved, the name of Jesus Christ" Acts 4:12

God will open every blind eye, release every prisoner of ignorance, break every chain of sin, turn every heart of rebellion, through the revelation of the verwhelming love of Jesus, who laid down His life for His friends- which includes all men.

"Father forgive them, they do not know what they are doing".

"Behold I am making everything new" Rev 21:5

[Ross]

Amen Lazarus and Eaglesway;

One little observation about role playing given to Satan;

1 Tim 1;20 " Among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan so that they may be taught not
                   to blaspheme."

Suggests, for me, that Satan has a work as the current ruler of this age. Interesting that one of his titles is the accuser- and that can only be done when we make mistakes. There are so many mistakes, big or little, that we make and will continue to make- so there will be many accusations brought forth about us.
Our personal efforts in the current position in the flesh CANNOT overcome the spiritual.
When Christ came to be like us He was made a little lower than the angels, but was raised up ABOVE the angels.
WE WILL BE RAISED TO BE  LIKE HIM.
Christ is greater than satan.
We will be like Christ.
Ergo we will be greater than satan- just in the next age; but we are currently protected completely by Christ as we learn the significance of what He did for us releases us, at our appointed time, from the bondage.

One of those keys, for me.
Romans 8;38,39 " FOR I AM CONVINCED that neither death, nor life,
                           NOR ANGELS, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come,
                            nor POWERS, nor height, nor depth,
                           NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING,
                           will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Satan is a created being.
The helmet of salvation seems to be the knowledge that you are literally saved.
The shield of faith is that Christ's faith did all that for us, so there will be no failure.
Love literally conquers ALL.
I.M.O you are asking questions as part of starting to grow.
Because of Christ you ARE a child of God; the one true Father. He loves us more than our earthly dads.

[idontknow]

I don't know, i am not a very good Christian i don't even read the bible because it bores me. I was once a God hating atheist until i went though demonic attack that scared me so bad i woke up and could not stop trembling.

I was attacked many, many times and thought i was just going crazy even though i knew it was something spiritual i didn't want to pay attention to it. Once i finally did and started looking into how to stop what was happening i accepted Jesus and became a Christian and it stopped.

Then kind of like you the fear of eternal hell took over and i started stressing about everything i did and if it was a sin or not and if most of the people i knew were going to eternal hell. I would pray and repent several times a day because i didn't not want to get attacked any more. It's not fun when you wake up in the middle of the night from being attacked in a dream then feeling whatever it was attacking you come out of your nose. Then paralyze you and manifest its self in your room and attack you with things you have done that were sinful.

I found Universalisim pretty quick but i did not believe it at first because i had family members who were Pentecostal and always talked about hell. It took about 3 years to fully accept it i still don't know 100% if it's real or not but with my life situation i have to believe it or else im probably still going to go there. I am just sick and tired of stressing about hell and i got to the point where im just angry about it. I was a grown ass man that slept with a night light on for 3 years just in case i was attacked again it might help with the the sleep paralysis. I know i have sinned and i am truly sorry for it and i am still not perfect.

The demon told me some things about my future that scared the hell out of me and some of them have come true and some of them have not. I have heard that only God knows the future and demons just make predictions or lie. But i have a life situation that i can not overcome and i will eventually have to take my own life over it. And i always heard that Suicides go to hell, i have had a glimpse of "hell" and it's not good. But it did bring about change and i think that's why God allowed it to happen to me. It was corrective and it worked.

Like i said though I don't read the bible and study it and pick it apart like the people on this forum do. All i have to go off of is what i experienced and i am leaning towards a "hell" being real but it is corrective and not eternal. I am also into earthly things and i love them so much that i hope that if i get to heaven i can still have it. I know how stupid it sounds but i am extremely attached to some things and i really dont want to let them go i guarantee im a worse than you with video games.

Not sure if my story will help or hurt but in all honesty im not worried about hell anymore.

[Dandelion]

God knows our heart.

I believe, if we sincerely seek Him and truth, which are one and the same, He will honor that.

I am a Christian Universalist, at this point, and can understand other's fears, but I think, in the end, my study of the Bible was a huge factor, but my relationship with God, was an even bigger one.

I had to forgive many people in my life....many who were supposed to be there for me, and could not be.

I know that God's love and forgiveness are an ocean, compared to my raindrop, and if He could give me the grace to forgive others, and not only forgive, but love deeply, then I know there is no Hell.

He will relentlessly seek each one of us, through eternity.

D.

[ChiniChani]

Thanks guys for all your support! I really appreciate it! My anxiety actually went down a bit yesterday and this morning and I can think rationally again. One thing that helps me not trust in those scary legalistic stories is that they don't add up to each other. They all have elements that others weren't "told" in their "visions" (in my heart I believe the legalistic visions to be false, just when my anxiety attacks I can't think straight for a while until I calm down). I suspect I may have some trauma-related anxiety from all the fear I've gone through. I'm thinking of getting checked out for PTSD. But I know in my heart that God and Jesus loves us all too much to condemn any of us forever. Like Ross said, God loves us more than our Earthly fathers. And if my Earthly father was faced with sending me to eternal punishment verses loving me forever and never letting anything bad permanently happen to me, he would choose the latter. It's logic if nothing else. Love has logic and vice versa. I may have to change my subconscious way of thinking in order to stop these attacks. Easier said than done, eh?

I really do apologize for the severe anxiety attack I had on here. I'm on medication for it (though I may have to increase my dose again and get therapy). Hopefully I won't have another episode on here again.

idon'tknow, I can definitely understand where you're coming from. And it does help because I know I'm not the only one now. My parents aren't Pentecostal but my Dad is a regular Fundamentalist. Mom's still in debate, but she doesn't believe in legalism thankfully. I want nothing to do with Pentecostalism personally. I'll come clean and admit I do have earthly desires that I have trouble letting go of as well, and some I flat out refuse as long as I know they're not sinful (unless it's idolizing but even then... :/ We ain't perfect. I personally believe as long as our love outweighs our selfishness we won't have to undergo purification). Like some fan fiction stories I come up with. I've grown a deep connection with some of my characters and real pre-made characters, as if they're my own children. It sounds weird but the characters are like my family and I can't live very well without them. Been working on them for years. It's a way to help me cope I suppose, my life isn't exactly roses and daises, but that's a tale for another time which may not be on this forum as it's off subject. Another thing I'm into is a certain anime called Attack on Titan, especially the character Annie Leonhart (she's one of the characters in my "story family circle") Anyway, I'll hush. I'm getting off subject with that now. ADD.

Again, thank you all for your support and rest assured I did read all of them! I think what needs to happen is I need to stop paying attention to legalistic "visions" in general. They're either not real or they just experienced it in their minds and they believe it's real even though it isn't. Trying to make peace with it, it's hard, but I'm trying. Kudos to you all! (Can you tell I'm a typical girl of this generation? lol)

[Shev]

Hey Bristol,

To me, the simplest way of putting any truth is that it is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ, who is Truth. We believe Him, believe IN Him, and believe the Father through Him, rather than the contradictory reports of unstable man. The plan of God is revealed in the nature, words, life, death, resurrection and ascension of that wonderful man, and no ill report can gainsay it, just as the ten fearful spies could not gainsay the true report of Joshua (Jesus) and Caleb.

God bless!
Michael

[Ross]

I think what needs to happen is I need to stop paying attention to legalistic "visions" in general.
They're either not real or they just experienced it in their minds and they believe it's real even though it isn't.

Applicable to this key point is;
2 Cor 11;13-15 " For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
                         And no wonder! For satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light.
                         So it is no great surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.
                          Their end will be according to their works."

Christ says;
Matt 7;21-23 " Not everyone who says to Me, ' Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My
                      Father in heaven.
                      On that day MANY will say to Me,
                                                                    ' Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name,
                                                                      and do mighty works in Your name?'
                      And I will declare to them,
                                                           ' I NEVER knew you; go away from Me you who practice lawlessness.'
                     
Many claim visions.
Paul makes the statement about these people;
2 Cor 10;12 " We would not dare to compare ourselves with some of those who ARE RECOMMENDING THEMSELVES.
                      Rather, when they measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves with themselves,
                      THEY ARE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING."

Paul says;
                     "  For me to live is Christ; to die is gain."
                     " Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."

Seems you are in the path of learning discernment/wisdom through experiences that are pointing out things clearer every day for you personally as you grow and are nurtured on the path of righteousness thanks to our loving Lord and complete saviour, Christ.

[eaglesway]

It is also reasonable to assume that some visions/NDE's are real but have been misinterpreted. The torment that is upon mankind due to separation from God.....war, crime, disease, mental illness, family dysfunction, sexual predators and victims of sexual perversion, etc., etc, could very well appear to be tormenting flames in the spirit realm.

This does not mean that God is going to torment people forever. The scriptures are clear on that subject, and it is not in the nature of God to do so.

He revealed His nature in Jesus Christ("the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature" Heb 1), who was tortured and murdered by wicked men, praying as He died, "Father forgive them they do not kno what they are doing."

Of His own crucifixion He testified, "If I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me."

Paul echoes this with,

"For so it pleased the Father to make all fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross, whether things in earth or things in heaven."

and

"After all things have been subjected to Him He will return all things to the Father so that God may be all in all".

These scriptures and many others bear witness to the full plan of God.

" In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth." Eph 1

"As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Cor 15

"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He might have mercy on all....For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things" Romans 11

Jesus said, "I did not come to judge the world but that the world should be saved through me". This does not mean Jesus does not judge, because He also says, "And if also I judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who has sent me."

This is not a contradiction, it is simply making a clear statement that His prime directive is to save, and that is why "mercy triumphs over judgment"- in the end all judgment leads to correction, repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation "On the day God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ"(Rom 2).

This is why Paul made it clear in 1 Cor 15 that after every adversary is subjected(gathered into one in Christ, Eph 1) then Jesus will return all things(including the subjected adversaries) and God will become "all in all".

So the oft repeated verse, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"(Phil 2)- is truly to the Father's glory as He planned from the very beginning to redeem the entire creation.

Would it be to the Father's glory is as they bowed and confessed they were cast into eternal torment? I don't think so- and the scriptures, when understood, teach a different glory....

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. Rom 12

[ChiniChani]

I'm just wondering. What made you all realize that everything that's good, peaceful, and loving sounding being a satanic lie which satan can manifest... is a lie? And that all the traits I said are strictly from God and satan cannot manifest such traits. I'm still struggling with that and so far the scriptures aren't doing as much for me as I hoped. I just want to know for sure God loves us too much to be afraid of Him, and that that one verse about Jesus saying to be afraid of the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell/gehenna/hades etc was in a way, metaphorical or in a different manner of speaking. I want to know God doesn't want us to come to him shaking and scared, but to come to him loving. When Paul said satan can masquerade as an angel of light, he did just mean that satan can make bad and actual sinful things (like drinking too much, doing drugs, hurting people, hurting yourself, etc.) to seem good, right?

I'm just saying because people who like to manipulate others for control (like sociopaths, narccissists, etc.) CAN imitate the fruits of the Spirit to get what they want in the end.  :sigh: That's what has me concerned, and I don't fully understand it. How can I tell the difference between an imitation and the real thing when it comes tot he fruits of the Holy Spirit? How can I not be afraid to pray to God and not think a demon will hear me instead? I want to escape the bonds and beliefs of legalism completely. The fear it caused me keeps lingering. PTSD? Delusional? Or something else? Or am I missing something completely? How can I know for sure that everything in the world, including spiritual, isn't Satanic and God isn't intervening? I want to get out of that thought pattern and it's interfering with my life. I know it seems unreasonable but it's a real fear of mine.

Thanks!

[ChiniChani]

Well looky what I found in the Bible! It's Timothy 4:1-6 NIrV (it's a kid's Bible but that shouldn't make a difference I believe)
If these don't go against Mary Baxter, Carmelo Brenes, Angelica Zambrano, etc. I don't know what does. Something tells me I nearly fell for the things "taught by demons". I rarely see this set used too, except for one website against Mary Baxter (spirituallysmart (dot) com). Paul/God told Timothy to tell the others about it, so why shouldn't we do the same?

"The Holy Spirit clearly says that in the last days some people will leave the faith. They will follow spirits that will fool them. They will believe things that demons will teach them."

"Teachings like those come from liars who pretend to be what they are not. Their sense of what is right and wrong has been burned as if with a hot iron."

"They do not allow people to get married. They order them not to eat certain foods. But God created those foods. So people who believe and know the truth should receive them and give thanks for them."

"Everything God created is good. You shouldn't turn anything down. Instead you should thank God for it."

"The word of God and prayer make it holy."

"Point these things out to the brothers and sisters. Then you will serve Christ Jesus well. You were brought up in the truths of faith. You received good teaching. You followed it."

[Ross]

Many will come an claim to be ministers of righteousness. They will know the law and apply blessings and curses to heap guilt and sense of failure on many.
Christ completely fulfilled the law.
As you noticed in 1 Tim 4- key.
Add in 1 Tim 6;4,5 " He is puffed up with conceit, UNDERSTANDING NOTHING, but has a sickly craving for speculations
                              and fights about words, out of which come envy, strife, slanders, evil suspicions,
                              constant irritations among people who have been corrupted in their mind and have BEEN ROBBED OF THE TRUTH
                             imagining godliness is a means of profit."

Something tells me I nearly fell for the things "taught by demons"

I went to many "prayer meetings" where we tried to cast out demons. There was a supposed pouring out of the spirit. A man walked along putting his hand on people who would then fall backwards having "received the spirit". I never got touched so I thought I was not believing enough. I now know that I was being protected, and have had these lies exposed for what they are, but had to go through that to see the difference between truth and lies. This has taken many years- step by step. The truth sets us free from EVERY burden.
Wisdom comes only through experience, and our Lord disciplines whom He loves.
You are seeing things you never saw before. He loves us more than we can currently fathom.

[marie glen]

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: to the great responses in this thread!

I don't have much to add, except I personally think immortal soul is a very misleading idea causing much confusion. (I believe in resurrection- "those - in the graves- will hear his voice.." and rise from those graves.. a bed with a headstone, lol.. but at death the breath and vital force returns to God who gave it..

I was not taught in church. For which now I am very thankful. I believe we are transformed by our faith and most by drawing near to Him. Legalism - none of us being yet perfected, keeps us from drawing near to Him.. the only source of transformation and good.

I do not, for example, believe all modern music to be evil.. LOL

(I'm currently on my way to Rhode Island, from Vermont and Maine.. visiting home and the top Rick hits are playing.. I've lived through the greatest music ever.. but I'm a little off topic. Lol..

But that's an example of legalistic things I heard..

My little house on my little acre, has been to me a monastery.. a place among the trees and flowers to seek God.. who is love..

I learned every harsh voice is a lie.. love is the truth.

And like you mentioned - a personal favorite of mine - logic.

Almost 20 years ago, our son asked me two questions " why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? And isn't it great we get to be an ant farm(?)"

I answered him but wasn't happy with my answers.. so I prayed for better ones, and WOW. They knocked my socks off.. I was a solid and happy believer before.. but zowwy. :gsmile:

Early on in my walk I drew near to the lord Jesus.. needed him.. needed healing - a gust memory is of my head held under water by my mother.. many hard things growing up.. which I'll not go into..

But the drawing near.. seeking, pursuing Him.. his presence.. through that RIGHTEOUSNESS ATTRIBUTED TO US through the S crifice of Jesus. Period.

Then the daily word and wine (new wine of His Spirit) keeps us firmly rooted in him.

Indeed I felt he told me for healing, 3 times a day of quiet communion with him.

"Abide in Him.. he is the vine.. we the branches to bear verdant rich fruit, but only be abiding on the vine..

This life- the lesson that all not built upon the rock can only fail.. and be debris blown away by the wind..

Whenever I decide not to write much.. I end up writing a lot.. I cannot seem to keep it short!

It seemed to me in the answers God sent me, that he(surely!) could see all possibilities before ever creating.. and that he has done all things just as he has in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities.. when he endowed thinking ability a whole new world (er, tree) of possibilities came about. But a world of fully programmed robotic? type persons? Where's the perfection in that? The joy?

And if he not be perfect, wouldn't he too fade? That's the way I think of it..

And since He is perfect, the 'end' result of all this can only be the utterly best one possible.

I would suggest of course, concentrating  your reading on the New Testament and not the old (often for barbaric folks in barbaric times and for tiny Israel, mostly, and old covenant as opposed to new in Jesus covenant)

So now He is letting evil (imperfection, opposite of live) to run its course, proving truth, and a great contrast to the perfection of heaven ON EARTH which is the future.

Oh the beauty of his creation and creating..!

One of the answers I received was he being Life, suffers all sufferings which EVER occur! ..why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because he is not creating an ant farm.. but an un-breakable paradise/ perfection and his own family.. of many beautiful branches.. and birds.. animals.. angel's.,

"The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, gentleness, faithfulness, self control.." the fruit of HIS spirit...

He is all things good."He has put eternity in the heart of man" (male and female of course :gamble: dang phone auto correct.. make that :gsmile:

Sorry for any typos on this phone while on the road.. God bless this forum and tentmaker.. and you my dear..

[marie glen]

PS- when His Spirit feels not close.. prayer to music? That is music with prayer can lift up to Him.. our awareness, that is..

Well of course, prayer alone.. but with music can equal wings...?

"Truth sets Free.."

[Batty Bible Page]

ChiniChani, your post is long as is the reply after. To do them both justice I'll read them tomorrow when I am well rested as it is late here.
In the meantime prior to tomorrow I wanted to welcome you as a fellow newbie.  :friendstu: May God bless your time here.  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Psalm 2, imo, says Jesus is *the* decree (if God).

All those believing in an inferior salvation plan and success, are still learning that important thing.. that all life is (forever) in Jesus. (Why would God want to babysit us all forever?)

All the untruth which envelopes this world and planet, presently, is merely working to prove - once and for all - that every one absolutely needs to live and abide in Jesus. There is no other way.. He is "forever pre-eminent".

And he is "the exact representation of God's person"/character.
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:

"He has transplanted us into the kingdom of his dear son whom he loves."

Hebrews ch 4 - Jesus is our sabbath

[jugghead]

We are to test the spirits

The best way I have been shown is to ALWAYS look for love (Love) in any action, feeling, word or thought (yours or someone else)

But not a love of things of this world but a love towards God AND a love towards others

Love has to be the motive for something, but if receiving something in return is the motive, then it is not of God, because you are being nice so they are nice back, being kind to someone who is not kind to you, that is of God

The more you do these things of love the more love He will give you to do even more ..... and that is what makes the heart of God grow in you

I believe this is what we are to understand about it ...... anytime you give love away free (not expecting anything in return) God turns around and gives you more in return to give away free again, give it away free again, again He will give you back even more to do even more with

Giving away love is to freely give the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians, in the same way that God has many names, so does love have many names ..... because God is Love

The hardest one for me is to be patient with those who are not patient with me

[marie glen]

Amen! ..I think of it as a stream.. it has to keep flowing.. otherwise we block it, as with a damn..

[jugghead]

Amen! ..I think of it as a stream.. it has to keep flowing.. otherwise we block it, as with a damn..

Yep, I agree    :thumbsup:

[Song]

Bristol, welcome to the best little corner of the www!

I put NDE's in the same class - accounts that cannot be verified by anyone.  Fiction!  People who believe in Hell will have NDE's about Hell.  Garbage in, garbage out.  Simple.

The Bible also says that there are good spirits and evil spirits. As such, evil spirits would also have the ability to give people NDE's that falsely talk about Hell, in order to prevent them from realizing the Lord's love for all people.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Because also those deceitful spirits would know that the NDE would get published and scare more people, causing more suffering to people and preventing them from understanding the true magnitude of God's love, which is extended to everyone!

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons

When someone is about to die, they are very vulnerable. People remember most these experiences. For a demon, this would be the perfect opportunity to plant a false doctrine (ECT) in their head to terrorize them. Because people who are scared of Hell, they don't do things out of love, but out of fear.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

And then this person could tell their friends and families about the horrifying experience, thus spreading this fear.

This same thing can be applied to dreams. Of course, there can be times where prophets and citizens are warned through these visions by the Lord. But there can also be "nightmares", which are just there to terrorize you, maybe because you watched a scary movie, have an intense phobia (like scrupulosity) or had a terrifying encounter. Those would not come from the Lord, but from your mental mind, the brain, getting events from your memory and thinking about them while you sleep.

And as is the case with many mental illnesses, like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, people can have intrusive thoughts, which are horrible ideas that they would never do, come into their mind and terrorize them.

Joel 2:28
?And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

Ecclesiastes 5:7
For when dreams increase and words grow many, there is vanity; but God is the one you must fear. [fear here meaning respect, reverence] [dreams and words meaning those which are not useful]

Dreams and NDE are like, the Internet, for spirits. Anyone can post whatever they want on the Internet, whether or not it's true. Good spirits can post the truth, and bad spirits can post lies. You can get a call on your phone from a friend, wishing you good tidings, or from a scam caller, trying to steal your credit card information.

An NDE is essentially a thought you have before death, just more intense because you're in the process of dying.

A dream is essentially a thought you have while you're not awake, just more intense because you're  in the process of losing consciousness.

And what are thoughts? Just ideas in your head. Anyone can come up with an idea, regardless of it's good or bad. That is why, the Bible tells us to not lean on our own flawed understanding, on our own heart which has been hurt and injured by sin, but instead, rest on His Holy Words, the scripture, for advice.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

1 Timothy 4:7
Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. [silly myths meaning ECT from Greek mythology] Rather train yourself for godliness;