1st message and a question -- Why believe, why be saved, why be good?

[justanotherpilgrim]

Greetings all,

I was raised in a "deep water" Baptist home, and then wandered in and out of various Christian denominations and belief systems and even tested the waters of non-Christian based beliefs for 30 years or more.  Eventually, I was led back to follow some "flavor" of the Christian faith by, I fully believe, Jesus Himself!  This was about 7 years ago.  Since then, I have enjoyed and grown from a very deep and personal relationship with Christ.  I even went on to complete a D. Min. degree and have started a Christian ministry in service to Christ by serving individuals with disabilities.   My faith and trust in Jesus remains ever strong.  However, I still find myself in an uncomfortable position that beyond believing in and on Him; I don't really know for sure what else I believe.  Frankly, I don't even know why I believe ... other than because I feel personally called by Him to believe and follow Him.  Every time I start to wander off, it is not long before I feel Him literally pulling me back on the path.  So, I know that life without Him is not an option; or at least, not an option I wish to pursue.  It just feels so right and so much better when I know I am walking in His light.  Even so, I need some help getting my head on straight with regard to authentic and sincere Christian faith and practice.  I've not found that in mainstream Christianity.   So, I wanted to toss some thoughts around with folks here at the Tentmaker forum.

There is a lot about this Christian Universalism that I find appealing and in line with feelings I've had most of my life.  First and foremost, as seems the case with many who have posted on this forum, I've always been at odds with "mainstream" ("commercialized") Christian teaching about a God that seems nearly schizophrenic.  That is, a God that would profess to love us and save us from the fires of hell in one breath; but then would throw anyone under the bus (i.e., into the eternal fires of hell) if they happened to not believe in Him ... or had not even heard of Him.  In my heart of hearts, I've also felt that God would be a God of unconditional love.  Yet, I hear very little about that ... other than here at the Tentmaker site and forum.  

I've wandered in and out of the Tentmaker site for the past several years.  In fact, I referenced several articles from this site in papers for my D. Min. degree.  I have just recently started revisiting the site and today, for the first time, wandered into the forum area.  I was amazed and somewhat comforted to see so many rational sounding forum members who share views on God, Christ, salvation, matters of faith, etc., very much in line with my own -- or at least, what I think are my own views.  Again, beyond believing in and on Him; I don't really know for sure what else I believe -- except that much of what I have read and pondered from the Tentmaker site "feels" the closest to a rational and likely expression of authentic Christian faith.

Now, my questions:

1.  If, according to Christian Universalism, everyone will be saved no matter what (even folks like Hitler as discussed elsewhere on this forum):

a.  Why should one even bother to believe in Christ?
b.  Why should one bother to be saved by accepting Christ as savior/Messiah?
c.  Why should one not just live life to the hilt; amass a great fortune to squander on sex, drugs, rock-and-roll; bump off anyone who gets in their way; and just live in careless - reckless abandon?

Please note ... I consider myself to be a very moral and conscientious person and a devout follower of Christ.   I would have no intention of engaging in acts suggested in question "c" above.  I use such extreme examples as a way of framing my central question which is ... why be a Christian?  If we're all going to get the same reward no matter how we live our days on this side of the veil, what's the point of Christianity and trying to be an honest, sincere, and authentic Christian?  

Please understand that I am posing these question absolutely not to challenge views on Christian Universalism, because as I said earlier, I do find much of what I have learned about it to be very appealing, logical, and rational.  I ask these questions in hopes of hearing how other members of the forum deal with such questions.  Surely, others have had to wrestle with such questions and matters before Universalism could really seem right to them.  

Thanks and God Bless

Bill ... a.k.a. Just another Pilgrim

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus tells us to even think it — is as doing it.

[Beloved Servant]

Though we are not saved by obedience, we are saved unto obedience.
God's purpose for our lives is that we become holy, and happiness is subsidiary to that.
We will never really be happy or fulfilled until we have become holy.
Without holiness, no man can see the Lord and it is at His right hand that there are pleasures forevermore.
This great truth that happiness comes thorugh obedience and unhappiness, sadness, sorrow and misery come from disobedience is found throughout the scripture.
We see it in the very opening of history when God instructed man that he should not eat of the fruit of the tree.
But man ate.
With that act of disobedience, mankind was plunged into sorrow, sin and woe.
It began there and it has never changed. It ends there.
In the last chapter of the book of Revelation, we read this: "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life" (Rev 22:14).
In that same final book of the Bible we read: "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev 2:7). — Eby

[jabcat]

Welcome.  There will be plenty of input.  

God bless, glad you're here.  Jesus, Savior of the world.  The power of the cross reaches across, above, and below.  Col. 1:20

Please take the time to read this when you can;

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/   go to the authors, under 'V', and choose Dora Von Assen.  Excellent.

One quick note about your question;  we serve Him out of love, and because He's made us His sons, He begins, compels, draws, and completes our faith.

Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith. Hebrews 12:2

...and may your whole being, in all its part be kept blameless at the Presence of our Master Yesu(the Anointed One). The One who is calling you, is trustworthy;  so He will do this.  I Thes. 5:23,24  The Christian Bible

[thinktank]

 :bigGrin: Greetings, you must be thirsty after your long pilgrim

want some tea ?  :coffee2:

[CHB]

Now, my questions:

1.  If, according to Christian Universalism, everyone will be saved no matter what (even folks like Hitler as discussed elsewhere on this forum):

a.  Why should one even bother to believe in Christ?
b.  Why should one bother to be saved by accepting Christ as savior/Messiah?
c.  Why should one not just live life to the hilt; amass a great fortune to squander on sex, drugs, rock-and-roll; bump off anyone who gets in their way; and just live in careless - reckless abandon?

(1Cor. 6:12)All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: {profitable} all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

We could not worry about being saved, go off and live reckless, bump people off but it wouldn't be profitable. We would wind up in jail or  dead. Those things wouldn't be profitable to me and just knowing that I am saved no matter what or how I live my life makes me not won't to live it the way you described. We love God because he first loved us. Once I understood that God isn't like the God that mainstream portrays him to be my attitude toward him changed.

CHB  

[Lefein]

The simplest answer to the why's, is in who Jesus is Himself.

Way, Truth, Life - Love

We are to believe, not to "escape" from a negative outcome, however gruesome, or however light it may be.

We are to believe so that we will "progress" into the positive existence that comes when through Christ who is The Way - we become indwelt by Christ, and dwell in Christ; mutually indwelt in each other.  Indwelt, and indwelling by, and in Christ who is Truth, Life, and Love.

What is Truth that we should seek it?  Truth; That which is, that which is Reality.  Reality as God intended it, and intends it to be, and will have it be is Good, Beautiful, and Glorious.

What is Life that we should want it?  Life; The absolute antithesis to Death which is the absence of Life.  Life is freedom, life is Living, Breathing, Healthy, Growing...and other wonderful things.

What is Love that we should desire it?  Love, Agape is perfect.  God is Love, Love is God, God is perfect, Love is perfect.

[Aleax]

Hello and welcome,

As for your questions, Charles Slagle says it better than I ever would so I'll just quote him

GOD WILL NEVER GIVE UP ON YOU--NOT EVER! SO YOU MAY AS WELL GIVE UP DOING YOUR OWN THING AND ENJOY HIS FRIENDSHIP, BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO SOONER OR LATER.

From "The salvation of 125 inmates testimony".

http://sigler.org/slagle/125_inmates.htm

A really good read btw  :icon_joker:

[thinktank]

A good answer from the lord is

It is better to heap treasures in heaven that last for eternity where noone can steal it than to heap treasure upon the earth that is cast into the oven tomorrow.

[justanotherpilgrim]

Thanks so much to everyone for their helpful and insightful replies.  Each reply was helpful ... even the light-sided one from thinktank suggesting a cup of tea.  I did actually take a Java break  :coffee: ... this is after all a long pilgrimage (don't expect it to end).  So, I appreciate the refreshment and grins along the way!

I especially appreciate jabcat's referral to Dora Von Assen's article at Lighthouse Library.  Agreed, jabcat ... an excellent article that I will re-read many times (at least once more today).  I suspect that I will spend many more hours studying and discerning other articles at the Lighthouse.  I was not familiar with that resource before and I thank you for pointing me in that direction.

So here's the thing with me and my admittedly over-analytical mind (or the evil one keeping things churned up).  I fully agree with everyone's comments about why we should believe, why we should have and practice the faith, why we must be saved.  I know how miserable I am on those occasions when I have strayed and so I do not for a moment question that He is real and that I am walking in His light.  Although I am still asking many questions to everyone including self and Jesus, I am really very comfortable in my own salvation and my faithfulness to Him.  I am equally comfortable ministering and witnessing to others which I do nearly daily.  I am just still a bit hung up on one aspect of the Christian Universalism view that everyone no matter what will be saved.  Don't get me wrong, that stance "feels" more like the God of unconditional love that I wish to follow.  And, based on scripture some of you have supplied and that which I have been led to otherwise, it does seem soundly grounded in The Word that The Lord does not wish that any should perish, but that all will come to repentance.  Yet, if I am ministering to someone and explaining why they should be saved ... to redeem the gift of eternal salvation ... how do I square with them the advantage of taking that step before their days on earth are over rather than later if they will be saved anyway?  Is the stance of Christian Universalism that those who wait until after they have passed from this earthly life will still have some dues to pay before entering the gates of Heaven?  Or, is it that between here and Heaven (during the 1000 year millennium perhaps?) Christ will be revealed to everyone and everyone, one way or the other, will be brought to accept Him?

Sorry if I sound dense as a box of rocks.  I'm just trying to get my brain wrapped around a new and very appealing (for me) paradigm of Christian belief, faith, and practice.   I am posing all of these questions as much for those to whom I minister and witness as for myself.  One of the cornerstones of my ministry has been trying to remove all of the trappings of what I have come to understand as unauthentic Christianity -- which covers most of the institutionalized/commercialized denominations and belief systems in my estimation.  I have long held that so much of "mainstream" Christianity makes it so darned difficult to comply with and follow that most folks just give up on the whole of Christianity and salvation.  I've fancied myself a member of the litter patrol on the pathway to salvation and I am starting to think that the main tenets of Christian Universalism could be an important (and admittedly overlooked until now) piece of my ministry and the stretch of the pathway that Jesus has assigned for me to help patrol.  So, please bear with me and understand that I am asking these questions not to be judgmental toward the Christian Universalism paradigm; but to just better understand.

God Bless and thanks to all once again!

Bill/Just another Pilgrim

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus says: "TAKE of Me and eat."

They must take it!

If God sends someone to you to hear the Word then your fruit will be ripe for their picking.

There is no need to argue the Word of God with anyone.

Only He can heal the ears of the deaf.

By going out and spreading the Gospel under your own strength you will grow weary and fail.

Wait for the Lord to send you or bring them to you.

[onlytruth]

Howdy Pilgrim,
The bottom line is to love,if we have all the gifts but don't love its all pointless.The most revelation here on this site is all pointless if we don't love first!
When we show love without strings attached,that is when we can lead them to the Father and his restoring love for all matters.
Don't worry what to say for the spirit will give you the words at the right time.
blessings and enjoy the rest. :icon_king:

[CHB]

Yet, if I am ministering to someone and explaining why they should be saved ... to redeem the gift of eternal salvation ... how do I square with them the advantage of taking that step before their days on earth are over rather than later if they will be saved anyway?
Is the stance of Christian Universalism that those who wait until after they have passed from this earthly life will still have some dues to pay before entering the gates of Heaven?  Or, is it that between here and Heaven (during the 1000 year millennium perhaps?) Christ will be revealed to everyone and everyone, one way or the other, will be brought to accept Him?

Something that Ernest Martin said:
We should be telling people what Jesus did that got us saved, not what we should do to get ourselves saved. So true.

Just my thoughts:
There is a place called the lake of fire which I believe we all will experience, if not in this life then later. I believe this place is for burning out the old man in us all, it is not a literal fire but is still spiritually painful to go through. I believe that when everyone goes through this lake of fire every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

Others may see this differently. Blessings to you.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

1.  If, according to Christian Universalism, everyone will be saved no matter what (even folks like Hitler as discussed elsewhere on this forum):

a.  Why should one even bother to believe in Christ?
b.  Why should one bother to be saved by accepting Christ as savior/Messiah?
c.  Why should one not just live life to the hilt; amass a great fortune to squander on sex, drugs, rock-and-roll; bump off anyone who gets in their way; and just live in careless - reckless abandon?

I do not live that kind of life because it doesn't have anything to do with religious doctrine in the first place.   I used drugs while professing to believe in eternal hell and I suffered consequenses that I do not want to suffer again.  I STILL do things intentionally wrong because my flesh is weak and I have not suffered consequenses that I am not willing to endure to satisfy my weak flesh yet, however that part of my life isn't without some guilt for feeling that way about it.  I also do things that I wish I wouldn't but my flesh is weak and I go day by day hoping to get better each day.

None of that has anything to do with ET, hell, or universalism, it has to do with our nature as human beings.   

I guess I have to wonder why, since I believe that ALL are saved through Jesus Christ, that I have not aquired a desire to live a life of wreckless debauchery simply because I believe that. I also wonder why I have NEVER met anyone yet that believes that ALL are saved through Jesus that has aquired a desire to do the same.

Why is it that only those who do not really believe it are the ones who ask that kind of question?

Can you explain it?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi and welcome to the forum.....I think the disciples said it best, paraphrasing.....where can we go for You have the words of life? Once you've really tasted the life to your innermost being the Spirit gives, nothing else satisfies. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Welcome my friend. 

[jabcat]

I especially appreciate jabcat's referral to Dora Von Assen's article at Lighthouse Library.  Agreed, jabcat ... an excellent article that I will re-read many times (at least once more today).  I suspect that I will spend many more hours studying and discerning other articles at the Lighthouse.  I was not familiar with that resource before and I thank you for pointing me in that direction.

Yet, if I am ministering to someone and explaining why they should be saved ... to redeem the gift of eternal salvation ... how do I square with them the advantage of taking that step before their days on earth are over rather than later if they will be saved anyway?  Is the stance of Christian Universalism that those who wait until after they have passed from this earthly life will still have some dues to pay before entering the gates of Heaven?  Or, is it that between here and Heaven (during the 1000 year millennium perhaps?) Christ will be revealed to everyone and everyone, one way or the other, will be brought to accept Him?

Good, I'm glad you liked it, thanks for saying so.

There are various views within UR about punishment/discipline.  I'd say most do believe we reap what we sow - some believe it's contained to this life, I believe most believe there is some sort of after-this-life corrective discipline.  Many believe there will be a divine Lake of Fire cleansing process (works/anything not of God taken away - shame, discomfort, regret involved) - not fun, not pleasant, something to avoid through obedience.  

However, IMO, although something from which to escape, it is still temporary, because God is loving and doesn't eternally torment or annihilate His creation.  Jesus' term for it was aionios kolasis;  punishment of an age [time-limited].  From http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html;  "Christ carefully avoided the words in which his auditors expressed endless punishment (aidios, timoria and adialeiptos), and used terms they did not use with that meaning (aionios kolasis).."

So I wish to stand in His presence without shame, His blood answering for me;  yet knowing if I do have wood, hay and stubble to be burned, and torment [basanismos - testing for purity as with a touchstone] to endure - so that I might be saved as by fire in the Day of the Lord - still this;  "You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful."  Js. 5:11

Blessings, James.

[WhiteWings]

Bit late but,

:welcome:  :newb: :friendstu:

[Nathan]

I've yet to see anyone share my personal reasoning behind the original question here so I'll throw mine out with the mix.  For me, the reason why salvation is STILL the utmost important experience is not because it's a different "belief" or "doctrine".  I came into what they call universal reconciliation/redemption by way of my personal relationship with the Father.  "Then" I found this forum.

But the basis of this is not one of religion, it's one of relationship.  I didn't come to Jesus because I was scared to death of going to hell, I came to Jesus because I'm in love with him.  Everything else after that is just my growth process.  I believe what I believe "today" but tomorrow, what I believe now could easily change.  It's not that I'd shift to opposite ends of the spectrum as I did this time, but as we've been perfected in him, we continue to mature in our perfection.  It's a process.

Another reason for wanting to be saved is as Scripture claims, without salvation, we can not "see" the kingdom.  We can't see spiritual truths.  We can't compehend at all the kingdom principles which had been so important to Jesus that he spent a vast amount of his early ministry trying to convey what the kingdom was like and how it worked.  Without Christ in us, there's no way any of that could come into clarity because it can't be taught.  It can only be revealed by the Father.  And the Father can't reveal it to us unless we have a relationship with Him through Christ.  So salvation is still essential.

And yet another reason for it is so that we can mature in him and reproduce after our own kind, which is no longer I, but Christ in me.  It's impossible to reproduce the nature of Christ into others if we don't have him manifesting in us first.

The questions you ask are questions from a laboring mind.  Christ leads us into his rest, into his "finished" work.  What we do now, we do from a "seated" position.  It's a position of authoritive rest.  One who thinks that they can do whatever they wish is still one that has not yet come into the maturity of relationship with the Father. 

In Christ, the emphasis of what I can get away with and still go to heaven becomes nonexistent.  Those who have been born again into religion are the ones who worry most about people like us.  Everything they do, say, and think stems from works-based thinking.

I believe in hell, but not a hell that last for eternity.  Jesus stated that "in this world" you will have trials and tribulation . ..that's the definition of hell to me . . .but the best part of that passage is the next breath . . . "But, be of good cheer, I've overcome the world."

Yeah, I'll still have hell ahead of me, but nothing can remove the peace that's in me unless I allow it to happen.  I have dominion ove my earth.  And once light is in me, darkness no longer exists.  I'm still in this body of flesh with all it's cravings and weaknesses . . .but this flesh is only temporary, it's the spirit that is eternal.

Hope this helps some.

[Shadow]

Now, my questions:

1.  If, according to Christian Universalism, everyone will be saved no matter what (even folks like Hitler as discussed elsewhere on this forum):

a.  Why should one even bother to believe in Christ?
b.  Why should one bother to be saved by accepting Christ as savior/Messiah?
c.  Why should one not just live life to the hilt; amass a great fortune to squander on sex, drugs, rock-and-roll; bump off anyone who gets in their way; and just live in careless - reckless abandon?

I also have questions, in response to your questions

a) According to the bible everything is predestined anyway, so what difference does it make what one believes as everything as set in stone anyway :Romans chapter 9 and Rev 13v8 (as well as trillions of other verses)

b) As above, if there is an eternal hell awaiting most of the human race, if you are not chosen then there is nothing you can do about it anyway, so one may as well eat, drink and be merry before the axe falls (IOW enjoy this life while you can)

c) As the outcome was already known before it even started, why start it in the first place, no one ASKED to be born...this fact alone is a reason to question the ET doctrine

Please note ... I consider myself to be a very moral and conscientious person and a devout follower of Christ.   I would have no intention of engaging in acts suggested in question "c" above.  I use such extreme examples as a way of framing my central question which is ... why be a Christian?  If we're all going to get the same reward no matter how we live our days on this side of the veil, what's the point of Christianity and trying to be an honest, sincere, and authentic Christian?  

Oh, the good old morality card, the one that reminds me of Luke 18v10-14, yet when one reads the news christians are not more moral than non-christians judging by the daily scandals of vandalism, bombings, pedophilia, murder, sex scandals etc etc...by the way I'm a deconvert (I am a deist) although I'm still married to a christian and no..I haven't gone out and had multiple extra marital affairs/sacrificed babies, had an abortion, had a wild party....surprise, surprise, my life hasn't changed except I've become more introverted and withdrawn than I was before, only difference is I'll speak up when necessary like now

Why do christians lie and cover up their motives, they portray a god of love, yet preach a message of ET, to me the concepts are irreconcilable, if ET exists then such a God is NOT all loving


By the way it's always convenient how christians love to bring up Hitler when trying to justify their concept of ET, yet ignore the fact that due to their own theology, they have the victims in the same predicament as well

BTW, predestination/election was the main contributing factor in my own deconversion, just be glad and grateful that your God chose to love YOU at the expense of many others, I couldn't be grateful that I was spared whilst billions of others fry, that's why I'm no longer a christian (If indeed I ever was one to begin with, deep deep down I always had my doubts, now I know why)

[justanotherpilgrim]

Thanks once again to all for your excellent input, insight, and inspiration!

James/jabcat (which to you prefer?), your additional input was particularly helpful.  The Lord is helping me "massage" that additional perspective into my mind and soul.  Thank you my friend and brother!

I also very much appreciate Nathan's thoughts.  I too have enjoyed and grown through a deep and personal relationship with Christ long before finding this forum.  So, in that respect, you and I have been led down a similar path.  However, you seem to have grown in Him much better than I ... though, He keeps working on me ... thank God!  You are right, my friend, that the questions I ask are from a laboring mind.  You got that diagnosis right on the money!  I know better than that because when I just rest with Him in me and me in Him, I don't have all of these questions.  I must learn to rely far more on Him and less on me.  You have given me much food for thought here Nathan; and for that, I am very grateful.

Thanks again to all.  I look forward to ongoing discussions with all ... on this topic and others.

Bill/JAP

[tm55]

Here's one more, from Apprendix A of Universalism and the Bible by Keith DeRose:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm

The highlights are:  

"Many have e-mailed to warn me of the dangers of believing and promoting universalism.  Two closely related dangers have been stressed.  Some focus on how important Christians will think it is to spread the gospel if they accept universalism, and warn that belief in universalism would undercut evangelism.  Others focus on the potential detrimental effect of promoting universalism on potential Christians themselves, supposing many will think something along the lines of, 'Well, I'll be OK anyway, so why bother to accept Christ?'

I do not think that belief in universalism should have the above effects.  Here it is important to note that universalism -- at least the position I've been referring to by the term -- does not imply that it is unimportant whether one accepts Christ in this life, or sooner rather than later.  All that universalism per se rules out here is the 'infinitely big stick': that one will be eternally barred from heaven (and perhaps consigned to hell) if one fails to accept Christ in this life.  As I've stressed, universalism itself does not rule out that there will be punishment for some after death.  Indeed, it does not rule out that there will be a lot of punishment for some.  So it's not only consistent with the existence of sticks, but with very big -- indeed, immensely huge -- sticks, though of course universalists will disagree amongst themselves about the nature and size of whatever sticks there are.  Universalism does rule out the infinitely big stick.  But it would indeed be very sad if Christians believed that there is strong reason or motivation for accepting Christ in this life only if one faces an infinitely big stick if one fails to do so.  Universalism also guarantees that all humans will eventually attain the tremendous carrot.  But does the fact that things will eventually be OK for someone remove the motivation -- for [himself] and for others -- to improve [his] lot in the meantime?   Those who believe they are going to heaven, whether they're universalists or not, believe everything will eventually be OK for them, but few lose all interest in their well-being in the meantime.  And those who believe that certain other people (say, loved ones) are destined for heaven don't lose interest in promoting their well-being in the meantime.  Why, then, should accepting that everyone will eventually be OK sap all motivation for promoting their well-being in the meantime -- especially since it's at least consistent with universalism that that 'meantime' can be a very long time?

It's also worth pointing out that though the universalist believes all will attain heaven, it's consistent with universalism that what one's heavenly existence is like may depend on one's earthly life.  Thus the universalist may hold (though perhaps some will not) that how one lives one's earthly life -- perhaps crucially including whether one accepts Christ in this life -- will have eternal significance, even if it doesn't determine whether one (eventually at least) attains heaven."

[WhiteWings]

I do not think that belief in universalism should have the above effects.  Here it is important to note that universalism -- at least the position I've been referring to by the term -- does not imply that it is unimportant whether one accepts Christ in this life, or sooner rather than later.

I think the UR people are deserving a bit of the blame....
CUR would be better I think. There are Universalim teachings that have very little/nothing to do with Jesus.

[Nathan]

Don't you also think it uncovers the core reason why people live as Christians though?  They're not trying to live disciplined lives because they love Jesus, they're doing ti because the fear of hell forces them to.

But now we come along and begin proclaiming hell isn't what they all told us it was and the first response people have then is . . .well then what's the point of living with morals in my life if I don't get credit for it in the end?  So we become the bad guy.

God doesn't want a bride that only comes to him because she's being coerced to do it.  We still don't get it.  When the true nature of Christ shows up . . .it literally transforms us.  Just his presence transforms us.  I do what I do for Christ out of love for him now.  If anything, when you remove the veil of the hell doctrine, it reveals who's really in relationship with the Father and who isn't.

[Quaesitor]

Debauchery leads to death, who after having tasted to the glory of LIFE, would go out and return to death?
I do occasionnaly, because of my flesh, but I always thirst for that which is LIFE.

Those with these kind of questions have not tasted LIFE or have not understood WHO is the source of it.