"IT IS FINISHED" -WHAT DID JESUS MEAN BY SAYING THAT?

[T-Bone]

IN THE GUIDELINES OF THIS WEBSITE THE STATEMENT IS MADE EMPHATICALLY THAT ALL ARE NOT SAVED AT THIS TIME  BUT WILL BE IN DUE TIME AS GOD DRAWS EVERYONE TO HIMSELF WHICH BEGS THE QUESTION , WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WHEN HE SAID "IT IS FINISHED ?".

IT HAS BEEN MY UNDERSTANDING THAT JESUS MEANT THAT HE HAD COMPLETED THE WORK THAT HE HAD COME TO DO AS FORERDAINED FROM BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME , THAT IS "SAVE US FROM OUR SINS" BECAUSE WE ARE FORGIVEN OF ALL SINS PAST , PRESENT AND FUTURE.
GRANTED, NOT ALL ARE AWARE OF THIS "GREAT NEWS" BUT THAT IS THE REASON FOR EVANGELISM, TO TELL FOLKS THAT THEY ARE FORGIVEN, THAT GOD HAS SAVED THEM AND THAT THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES , IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD BY HIS GRACE AND ULTIMATELY WILL BE REALIZED BY EVERYONE IN DUE TIME BY THE FAITH AND LOVE "OF" CHRIST " NOT BY OUR FAITH "IN " CHRIST, FOR TO SAY THAT WE HAVE FAITH "IN" CHRIST IS TO SAY THAT WE DO SOMETHING OF OURSELVES TO BRING ABOUT OUR SALVATION.

TO ME THAT WOULD BE A "WORK" THAT WE WOULD DO TO SAVE OURSELVES AS IN SAYING " I ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOR " AS THE EVANGELICALS PROPOUND AND SOME HOW, MAGICALLY, WE ARE "SAVED".( CHECK OUT " THE TWO PILLARS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT " BY GARY AMIRAULT IN TENTMAKER,ORG. REGARDING THIS VERY SUBJECT.) THIS WOULD BE A MIXING OF THE MOSAIC LAWS AND GRACE WHICH HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM WITH THE CHURCH FOR THE LAST 1500 YEARS. WE CAN'T RESIST BUT SAY " THERE HAS TO BE 'SOMETHING' I CAN DO TO SAVE MYSELF!"

NO.

IT'S MY BELIEF THAT ALL ARE SAVED BUT JUST DON'T KNOW IT YET .
THEY HAVEN'T HEARD THE GOOD NEWS THAT EVEN THOUGH WE TELL THEM BY  CASTING THE SEED THOUGHTS OF THIS GREAT TRUTH  ONLY THROUGH THE SEED FAITH THAT COMES FROM JESUS HIMSELF AS EACH AND EVERYONE IS DRAWN TO GOD "IN DUE TIME" WILL ANY AND EVERYONE COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT THEY ARE SAVED THROUGH THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS AFTER WHICH THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE IS TO "WORK OUT OUR SALVATION" THROUGH THE DOING OF THE GOOD WORKS THAT GOD HAS PLANNED FOR EACH AND EVERYONE OF US SINCE BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.

I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT.

P.S. DEAR MODERATOR, PLEASE INDULGE ME FOR I'M NOT BIG ON CHAPTER AND VERSE QUOTATIONS . I LOVE READING AND STUDYING THE BIBLE AND WRITINGS BY PROPONENTS OF THE "VICTORIOUS GOSPEL " BUT WHAT "STICKS"  WITH ME IS THE TRUTH OF WHAT I READ AS REVEALED TO ME BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.  I TRY TO CONVEY THIS  IN MY DISCUSSION.  IF THIS IS GROUNDS FOR BEING REMOVED THEN GIVE ME FAIR WARNING AND I'LL TRY TO DO BETTER NEXT TIME. OTHERWISE , I LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO THE FAITHFUL  AND OTHER SEEKERS ON THIS SITE.

[jabcat]

I think it's a good question, "what did Jesus mean by 'it is finished'".  Good study.

However, I don't believe it means everyone's already spiritually renewed, i.e., saved.    Paul taught God had reconciled Himself to man, but that not all men were reconciled to God ("be you reconciled to God") and that not all were "of the faith".

There's much to discern and study here (to "show ourselves approved" and "to see if those things be true").  However, just one passage I believe is vital to this discussion, is the following.  In it, when the man asked how to be saved, he wasn't told that he already was.  I believe it's clearly shown that he wasn't as yet, and then given what needs to happen so he would be. 

-Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will  be saved.."

As far as the mixture of works and grace, or Law and grace.  I don't believe us "doing" things is "Law" necessarily.  I believe there's a distinction between works of the Law and the "righteous works of Christ" in and through us ("you are His workmanship, prepared unto good works").    The "work" of salvation is not ours.  I believe we each are given the faith to believe on the Lord Jesus as savior, i.e., in His death and resurrection for our redemption from sin/death - when HE deems it time and according to His will and plans.  The jailer could not believe on His own.  I believe in the scripture the man was drawn by the Holy Spirit, then given the faith to believe.  He needed to know what to do though.  However, though in us and through us, the work is the Lord's.  It's a free gift.

[T-Bone]

THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE, JABCAT AND BASICALLY, I AGREE WITH YOU BUT I STILL THINK THAT THE MAN THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO FROM SCRIPTURE WAS ONE WHO WAS DRAWN TO GOD TO EVEN ASK THE QUESTION .
HE WAS SEEKING, ( AND WHEN WE ARE SEEKING WE ARE READY FOUND BY THE LORD IN MY THINKING) AND, OF COURSE, HE WAS TOLD TO BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS WITH, I THINK,  THE FAITH THAT JESUS HIMSELF GIVES US  I.E. THE FAITH "OF" CHRIST. 
HE WAS EVANGELIZED, CAME TO THE REALIZATION THAT HE WAS SAVED, BELIEVED WHAT HE HEARD AND DECIDED TO MOVE TOWARD THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
TO SAY THAT HE WAS SAVED AT THAT POINT IS MOOT TO ME.
AS FOR BEING SPIRITUALLY RENEWED OR "SAVED" IF YOU WILL , WELL, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO GROW IN US .
THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE SAVED AND ARE BEING SAVED AT THE SAME TIME.
WE ARE BORN AGAIN AND BEING BORN AGAIN AT THE SAME TIME, IT SEEMS TO ME, AS WE GROW FROM GLORY TO GLORY, AS WE ENLARGE OUR HEARTS BY BENDING OUR WILLS TO GOD'S WILL BY SUBMITTING OURSELVES TO GOD'S WILL IN OUR LIVES AND THANKS BE TO GOD EVEN WHEN WE STUMBLE A BIT IN THIS REGARD HE STILL CONTINUES HIS WORK IN US .
WHAT HAPPENED TO JESUS ON THE CROSS IS HIS FINISHED WORK AND WHAT IS HAPPENING THEREAFTER IS A PROCESS OF BECOMING CHRISTLIKE DAILY THROUGH THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US OTHERWISE KNOWN AS SANCTIFICATION, AS I SEE IT.
ALL THE SHEEP ARE BEING GATHERED.
NONE WILL BE LOST FOREVER EVEN IF IT TAKES TO THE NEXT AGE OR BEYOND FOR THE LORD TO DO IT.
NOW THAT'S THE BETTER GOSPEL TO ME.

[eaglesway]

at the end of the day, when my work is done, it is finished. Jesus said,"I have a baptism to undergo and oh how constrained until it is accomplished." Luke12:50

When Jesus died it was accomplished, the restoration of the whole creation was secured in that moment and since we are entering the finished work, each in his own order, through an administration executed through the completion of time, the gathering of all things into one in Christ.Eph 1:9-11

As believers we have entered into the finished work.

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness to dwell in Him and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself,by the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven or things on earth.(Col 1:16-21)

Everyone else in the world, in times past and now and in the age to come, who has not yet seen the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ, has yet to enter the finished work, but they will, everyone, be brought in by the progressive revelation of His love that is "the glorious liberty of the sons of God"- into which the whole creation will be drawn in the ages to come, each in their own order, through the dispensation of the fulness of times, by the revelation of the sons of God(1 Cor 15, Romans 8).

Therefore we labor diligently to enter into His rest, ceasing from our own works and entering into those works which were ordained from the foundation of the world(Heb 2-4), that we should walk in them- as ministers of reconciliation, proclaiming this word of reconciliation, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

2 Cor 5:17,18 So if anyone be in Christ Jesus old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new [/i]and all things are of God who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and has entrusted us with that ministry of reconciliation, how that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not counting their offenses against them, and putting in us that word of reconciliation.

Behold, I am making all things new. :o)

:2c:

[T-Bone]

THANK YOU EAGLESWAY AND GOD BLESS YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE.
WHAT BEAUTIFUL SCRIPTURES AND HOW TRUE THEY ARE BUT BASICALLY, WHAT YOU HAVE SAID IT SEEMS TO ME IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING .

CHRIST HAS DONE THE SAVING WORK AND IT IS A PROCESS FOR EVERYONE TO COME TO REALIZE IT IN GOD'S DUE TIME THROUGH THE FAITH CHRIST GIVES US TO DO SO.

EVEN REPENTANCE ( CHANGING OUR MINDS ABOUT CHRIST AND MOVING TOWARD HIS LIGHT FROM DARKNESS)  IS A GIFT OF GOD, TO DO SO , I BELIEVE.

[Seth]

HE WAS EVANGELIZED, CAME TO THE REALIZATION THAT HE WAS SAVED, BELIEVED WHAT HE HEARD AND DECIDED TO MOVE TOWARD THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.

Hi T-Bone, good to meet you and talk to you. With all due deference, I believe there is a misunderstanding in UR regarding the idea of all being saved now. I do not believe that we come to a realization that we are already saved. I believe we come to a realization that we are reconciled by his death, and if being reconciled by his death, how much more so, shall we be saved through his LIFE.

Reconciliation is in that God has made peace with mankind and has taken away the Law no longer COUNTING his sins against him. On the other hand, the carnal mind is enmity against God, and that is the other part of being reconciled back to him. He is not at war with mankind, but at war with sin. That is the work Christ is doing by his LIFE unto salvation: the gift of the Spirit. He is saving us from the carnal mind.

[T-Bone]

I'M WITH YOU ON THAT, SETH AND AGREE.
MAYBE WE'RE HAVING A QUESTION OF SEMANTICS HERE MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE I.E. WHEN I SAY THAT ONE REALIZES THAT HE OR SHE IS SAVED , I'M BASICALLY MEANING WHAT ALL OF YOU HAVE BEEN TELLING ME BUT I'M PUTTING IT IN A CONDENSED FORM USING THE WORD "SAVED" PRIMARILY, WHICH IN ITSELF WOULD BE ANOTHER VERY INTERESTING THREAD.
JUST WHAT DOES IT MEANT TO BE "SAVED"?
THIS CURRENT EXCHANGE WOULD GO A LONG WAY IN ANSWERING THAT.
I LOVE ALL OF YOUR RESPONSES AND AGREE WITH ALL OF THEM.
YOU ARE ALL TEACHING ME MUCH  BUT YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT WHEN I TALK TO FOLKS AND PRIMARILY THE COMMON MAN I USE LANGUAGE LIKE I'VE EXHIBITED IN THIS THREAD.
MY TRACTS ( APPROVED BY MY WIFE AND GARY AMIRAULT BY THE WAY) ARE DESIGNED TO REACH EVERYONE IN A LANGUAGE THAT IS EASILY UNDERSTOOD WITH THE HOPES THAT THE SEED THOUGHT WILL TAKE ROOT AND LEAD TO DEEPER INVESTIGATION .
YOU FOLKS KNOW YOUR BIBLE FOR SURE AND I RELISH THAT.
ALTHOUGH I WILL TURN 70 IN LESS THAN A MONTH I AM SEEING THINGS IN A WAY THAT I NEVER HAVE SEEN BEFORE THANKS TO YOU GUYS , TENTMAKER.ORG AND OTHERS + THIS WEBSITE IS AWESOME.
PRAISE GOD THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS LEADING US  INTO ALL TRUTH!

[Seth]

JUST WHAT DOES IT MEANT TO BE "SAVED"?
THIS CURRENT EXCHANGE WOULD GO A LONG WAY IN ANSWERING THAT.

Here is what I think it means to be saved. I will explain through two scriptures, although there are MANY more.

Matthew 1:20-21
An angel from the Lord came to (Joseph) in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus, because he will save (sozo - heal) his people from (Greek apo - to separate from) their SIN."

Here is what you hear from all manner of denominations and views on what man is saved from:

• Hell
• Annihilation
• 70AD
• punishment for sin
• the second resurrection
• the second death

However, the angel doesn't mention anything like that. The scripture literally says he shall: "save his people FROM their sin."

First, God peace with man through Christ's death
Then, Christ brings man's salvation from sin through his LIFE.

Here is how:

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


That is how man is saved by Christ's LIFE, having been already reconciled: by being "quickened together" being joined together with Christ unto a renewal of the mind, so that we cease: "walking in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"

We are not saved by OUR works, but by the work of Christ.

I have more info here in case you are interested: Judgment of the World by the Cross

[JulieTang84]

T-Bone so please to discuss this wonderful question with you.
     
Jhn 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

What exactly did Jesus Finish?

To reveal the Father (Matt. 11:27)
"All things have been committed to me by my Father.  No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

To be a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28)
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

To serve (Matt. 20:28)
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

To save the world (John 3:17; Luke 19:10)
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

To preach the good news of the kingdom of God (Luke 4:43)
"But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent."

To bring division (Luke 12:51)
"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division."

The above verse has long been misunderstood. Yes, division did result but only because the good news that Jesus taught was not accepted. However; his message was available to any whom at ears to hear and eyes to see.

Eph 2:14
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.

Eph 2:15
He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.

To do the will of the Father (John 6:38)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."

To give the Father's words (John 17:8)
"For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.  They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me."

To testify to the truth (John 18:37)
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.   Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king.  In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth.  Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

To die and destroy Satan's power (Heb. 2:14)
"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death -- that is, the devil."

To destroy the devil's works (1 John 3:8)
"He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.  The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work."

To fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

To give life (John 10:10,28)
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full... I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

To taste death for everyone (Heb. 2:9)
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

To become a high priest (Heb. 2:17)
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

To atone for sin (Heb. 2:17)
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

To proclaim freedom for believers (Luke 4:18)
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.  He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed."

To proclaim the year of the Lord's favor (Luke 4:19)
"to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

To bring judgment (John 9:39)
"Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

To take away sin (1 John 3:5)
"But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin."

To preach (Mark 1:38)
"Jesus replied, 'Let us go somewhere else -- to the nearby villages -- so I can preach there also. That is why I have come.'"

To call sinners (Mark 2:17)
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.  I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'"

To know who is true (1 John 5:20)
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true.  And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ.  He is the true God and eternal life."

I believe the above creates a great overall picture of what Jesus completed. But all of this is of mute value if one chooses to ignore the operative word: Finished.

What this means is that there is NOTHING one can do to add to or take from what Father, through Jesus set in place. Some may believe that they are not yet saved, or that they are still enslaved to sin; yet in doing so, they are denying that Christ's work is indeed finished. Certainly, being willed a million dollars does not allow one spend money like it is going out of style. However, one should be able to sleep a little more peacefully, worry less and live in relative peace; knowing that even if things a tight now they wont be forever. The money is as good as money in the bank.

How much more joyful is it to the one who is notified that they were willed a million dollars and it's there's now? We are saved, we have been forgiven. It is not a promise but a given. Jesus destroyed sin and Paul said that we are dead to sin; why persist on bringing what is dead back to life?

Jesus had set in motion the coming of the Spirit of Truth; he had preached the Kingdom of His Father  and glorified His Father in his every word and action.

It matters not a all if any or all accept what Jesus completed or none at all, the completion of his work is not contingent on being believed. The method may differ, but the result is a given. Honestly, knowing this should bring the best days of one life. For surely the old will have passed away and the light of Love, Truth and Peace will show our world for what it truly is: our playground in which to learn and practice Love while living in complete and utter gratitude. :dsunny:

Rom 6:4
For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
   
2Cr 5:17
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!


Much Love to you,

Julie  :HeartThrob:

[T-Bone]

SETH/JULIE TANG 84!

GOD BLESS YOU BOTH AND TO ALL THE REST OF YOU WHO HAVE RESPONDED TO THIS THREAD.
I AM FILLED WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD'S REDEMPTIVE WORK THROUGH OUR PRECIOUS LORD AND SAVIOR THANKS TO YOUR "FEEDING "ME .
MUCH OF WHAT YOU HAVE SAID I ALWAYS SENSED IN MY HEART BUT IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE THE TANK "FILLED " AGAIN.
CAN WE EVER GET ENOUGH OF THIS GREAT NEWS?
I THINK NOT SINCE WE ALL TEND TO FORGET.
IT IS GOOD TO BE REMINDED ONCE AGAIN AND YOU HAVE DONE THAT.
MY PRAYER FOR YOU ALL IS THAT YOU WILL BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST DAILY.
I THINK WE ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT TO WHAT "IT IS FINISHED" MEANS, DON'T YOU?
I THINK WE ARE FOR SURE.

[rosered]

 
   great answers  and good question T bone
I too love straight and direct simple answers  :thumbsup:

and to me the answers are always in His Word   Jesus come to complete and bring in the new testament witness promises of God  though Him


THE QUESTION , WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WHEN HE SAID "IT IS FINISHED ?".


Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father has sent me.




1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.  
   

Hbr 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 


Hbr 9:15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 
Hbr 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 


Hbr 9:17   For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 


Hbr 9:18  Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 


Hbr 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 


Hbr 12:6   For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.

[Seth]

Some may believe that they are not yet saved, or that they are still enslaved to sin; yet in doing so, they are denying that Christ's work is indeed finished.

I do believe many people are still enslaved to sin. It's self evident. They are not saved by Christ's death, but by his life. Hitler was enslaved to his wrath. The junkie is enslaved to drugs. The pornography addict is enslaved to pornography. The way out is through the LIFE of Christ. Unhealed people are not healed.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

IMHO, not enough people in UR are seeing the difference between what happened by Christ's death, and what happens by his life. "It is finished" applies to reconciliation of the world. But he was raised 3 days later, to bring Light and LIFE to the captives and set them free from their slavemasters.

[JulieTang84]

Some may believe that they are not yet saved, or that they are still enslaved to sin; yet in doing so, they are denying that Christ's work is indeed finished.

I do believe many people are still enslaved to sin. It's self evident. They are not saved by Christ's death, but by his life. Hitler was enslaved to his wrath. The junkie is enslaved to drugs. The pornography addict is enslaved to pornography. The way out is through the LIFE of Christ. Unhealed people are not healed.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

IMHO, not enough people in UR are seeing the difference between what happened by Christ's death, and what happens by his life. "It is finished" applies to reconciliation of the world. But he was raised 3 days later, to bring Light and LIFE to the captives and set them free from their slavemasters.

Dear Seth,


Jesus uttered the words: It is finished before he died. There is nothing anyone can do to not be saved. Much like the million dollar simillie, whether one wants it ot not doesn't change the fact that the will recieve the money.


Begin "saved" is not contingent on it being realized; however, knowing it is priceless. I agree with you though, Jesus does save through his LIFE not by his death.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Begin "saved" is not contingent on it being realized; however, knowing it is priceless. I agree with you though, Jesus does save through his LIFE not by his death.

So then it makes sense for us to distinguish "reconciliation" from "salvation." They are NOT the same thing if the Bible says they are not the same, and they are not accomplished by the same methods if the Bible says they are not.

The realization people are to have is one of reconciliation. The PRODUCT of that reconciliation is for them to believe, recieve Grace and be saved from sin. If everyone is already saved from their sin, then the following scripture has NO application:

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If everyone needs to realize that they are already saved, than Paul's language here is very odd. Shouldn't he be saying: "hath appeared to all men teaching them that they are already saved?" But no, he shows us that the salvation is in how God, through Grace, teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.

That is why I say that those who are addicted to pornography are NOT saved from pornography and we UR folks shouldn't be saying they are. We should not say to a captive "you are free" without giving them the KEY to their release. When people went to the Lord for physical healing, he didn't say "you are healed you just don't know it." He ACTUALLY healed them. The Gospel of salvation from Sin is no different.

To me it seems that many in the UR message are saying to people who are stuck in the jaws of a shark: you are already saved from the shark! Then walking away.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:  I agree Seth , its what the Word of God says  as well


1Th 5:21   Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 


1Th 5:22   Abstain from all appearance of evil. 


1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

[Seth]

Another scripture to consider:

Romans 10:9-10
If (Greek - ean, a conditional particle) thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (sozo - healed).

For (because) with the heart man believeth unto (Greek - eis - toward) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto (Greek - eis - toward) salvation.

Not only does Paul not say that salvation has already occurred, he also places a conditional statement on it. IF you confess, you will be saved. The logical reverse: If you shall NOT confess, you shall NOT be saved. Why?

Because with the mouth a man confesses UNTO salvation. Why? Because we have "access unto this grace by faith" (ROMANS 5:2) and by grace we are saved from sin by the TEACHING of God.

Hebrews 12:1
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

[Seth]

:thumbsup:  I agree Seth , its what the Word of God says  as well


1Th 5:21   Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 


1Th 5:22   Abstain from all appearance of evil. 


1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup:  :dsunny:

[T-Bone]

WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE DON'T SLIP INTO THE SALVATION BY WORKS MENTALITY THINKING THAT THERE IS SOMETHING AFTERALL THAT WE MUST DO TO SAVE OURSELVES. 

I AGREE, JULIE, THAT WHEN JESUS SAID THAT IT IS FINISHED , HE MEANT IT AND NO ONE CAN DO ANYTHING TO UNSAVE THEMSELVES.
ACTUALLY, IT WAS FINISHED BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME .
CHECK OUT GODFIRE.NET AND LOOK UP ERWIN ROACH'S ARTICLE ON "THE LAST DAY" .
AN EXCELLENT READ AND AN EYE OPENER.

ALSO, SETH, NO MAN CAN SAY THAT JESUS IS LORD EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US SO TO MAKE A CONFESSION THAT JESUS IS LORD CAN ONLY BE DONE BY THE FAITH " OF " THE SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST IN US, NOT BY ANYTHING WE DO OF OURSELVES, BECAUSE IN OUR CARNAL STATE, IN THESE CORRUPTIBLE BODIES, WE COULD REALLY CARE LESS.
THANK GOD THAT "HE" DRAWS US TO HIMSELF AND DOES THE SAVING WORK IN US WHICH I THINK IS CLEARLY WHAT ALL THE EPISTLES OF PAUL ARE SAYING.

[Seth]

Really, the only way to come to the "already saved" conclusion is to greatly generalize the scriptures. When you get down to what the scriptures actually say, it's an indefensible doctrine.

Here is where sin lives:

Romans 7:18-20
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

If sin dwells within us, then the LIFE of Christ dwells within us to SAVE us from that sin.

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds (works)? Can such faith save them?

The answer is: NO!  :dontknow:

Throughout generations, Christians have had a problem resolving that scripture to their beliefs, but there is no problem if you understand the context:

James 1:19-21
My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save (sozo - heal) you.

The salvation is not from HELL, but from "all moral filth." Indeed works CAN save us because if we are doing the good works prepared by Christ, then we are NOT doing "all moral filth," and thereby we have been saved from transgressions and sin. But they are not OUR works:

Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (katermagozahee - outwardly work) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

The working of the internal salvation outwardly is not our own, but by grace which teaches man to do good works:

Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done (by the Law of Moses), but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I don't know how the "already saved" UR belivers can resolve these scriptures, again, without REALLY generalizing and not addressing them.

Galatians 3:14
In Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (sozo - made whole, healed) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

[rosered]

Again agree with you Seth!! 
and its the works of the Father and Son  , those are the living works   done and doing in you


To HIS GLORY !!!


Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 

Jhn 14:11   Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 
Jhn 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 


Jhn 14:13   And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 


Jhn 14:14   If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 


Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. 


Jhn 14:16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 


Jhn 14:17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 


Jhn 14:18   I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  


Jhn 14:19 ¶ Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 


Jhn 14:20   At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 

[Seth]

Nobody can say it quite like Jesus himself, right rosered?  :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

Really, the only way to come to the "already saved" conclusion is to greatly generalize the scriptures. When you get down to what the scriptures actually say, it's an indefensible doctrine.

The working of the internal salvation outwardly is not our own, but by grace which teaches man to do good works:

Amen. 

[T-Bone]

SETH/ROSERED / JABCAT:

I APPLAUD YOU FOR YOUR DEFENSE OF YOUR POSITION ON THIS SUBJECT BUT DO NOT CONSIDER THAT I HAVE BEEN MAKING GENERALIZATIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES ANYMORE THAN I CONSIDER YOU "SPLITTING HAIRS " BY SENDING ME A BARRAGE OF VERSES THAT YOU THINK "CLEARLY" VINDICATE YOUR POSITION .

I KNOW THAT YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE CORRECT AND MAYBE YOU ARE BUT I MAY BE CORRECT , ALSO ,FOR WE BOTH READ THE SCRIPTURES AND SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY AND THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAT THE DEVIL WOULD LIKE THAN TO DIVIDE US ON THIS OR ANY OTHER BIBLICAL ISSUE THROUGH ARGUMENT.

I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO ANYTHING LIKE THAT ON THIS WEBSITE FOR IT WOULD NOT BE CONDUCIVE TO UNITY IN CHRIST AND I HOPE YOU ALL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS.

[jabcat]

T-bone, it's OK to express/discuss.  You're right, no one needs to "argue/debate".  That said, I didn't realize there was a huge amount of disagreement from looking at everyones' posts.   :search:

Let's make sure we're all talking about the same thing/understanding each other.  I looked at Mr. Roach's article.  Please correct me if I'm wrong - it's a long article and I only scanned it.  My impression was not that he believes everyone is already saved/spiritually reborn - but that they all WILL be. 

Seth and rose were also addressed in your post, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   I do believe Jesus "accomplished" the means to that ends on the cross, paid the sin debt for mankind (death, both spiritual and physical) - as well as fulfilling all the requirements of the Law.  That was finished.   He was the Lamb slain, the perfect sacrifice, the way to the Father - not through works of the Law.       

I believe He did (finished) many other things with His death and resurrection, including that from before the foundation of the world He knew exactly who was going to be brought into the fold, and when - and the cross was vital to that.  Therefore, technically it was "accomplished"; but literally, in what we know as "time", is still to be brought to a conclusion, i.e., when God is All in all.   So to my understanding, of course "it is finished" means something major - I just think the belief that all are already saved can't be reconciled with a whole host of other scriptures. 

So to the question of the OP, again, good question.  My thought is, He meant many, very specific things when He said "it is finished" (and I don't claim to know them all!).  However, as He didn't say "everything is finished", then I believe He's still working His "plan" and will in mankind, which is not finished, and will only end in Him being All in all.  To my understanding, that involves Him eventually drawing the majority of mankind to Him and giving them the faith to believe/trust/adhere to Him as Savior.   :2c:

[Seth]

SETH/ROSERED / JABCAT:

I APPLAUD YOU FOR YOUR DEFENSE OF YOUR POSITION ON THIS SUBJECT BUT DO NOT CONSIDER THAT I HAVE BEEN MAKING GENERALIZATIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES ANYMORE THAN I CONSIDER YOU "SPLITTING HAIRS " BY SENDING ME A BARRAGE OF VERSES THAT YOU THINK "CLEARLY" VINDICATE YOUR POSITION .

I KNOW THAT YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE CORRECT AND MAYBE YOU ARE BUT I MAY BE CORRECT , ALSO ,FOR WE BOTH READ THE SCRIPTURES AND SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY AND THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAT THE DEVIL WOULD LIKE THAN TO DIVIDE US ON THIS OR ANY OTHER BIBLICAL ISSUE THROUGH ARGUMENT.

I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO ANYTHING LIKE THAT ON THIS WEBSITE FOR IT WOULD NOT BE CONDUCIVE TO UNITY IN CHRIST AND I HOPE YOU ALL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS.

T-Bone,
in response to the bolded portion above, I wasn't talking about you, but about a doctrine within the belief in universal salvation which submits that all have already been saved. It wasn't an attack on you, because I am not sure that you believe that or not. Simply it was to say that for those who hold a belief like that, I am not sure how they deal with scriptures like that. My purpose is not to divide but to reason with you about it. I do believe the scriptures validate what I am saying, but they are not meant as a "barrage." The scriptures are beautiful and meant to give us information we Christians dearly need. I am simply providing them to show you why I believe as I do.

If I am wrong in what I say, I would need to be shown from the scripture itself, not any other way.

Some other verses to consider. John 3 is an AMAZING chapter to understand this stuff. Here are some of the fine points. I have posted this in other threads, but I think it very much applies here.

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the  only begotten Son of God.

I posted a scripture from Romans 1 a few posts back which showed that God's wrath is in that he has turned man over to a sinful mind to defile himself and receive in his own person the recompense for his error. This wrath has been in effect since the Garden of Eden, God allowing man to pursue the darkness and reap the bad fruit which comes of a bad tree.

Paul was teaching what Jesus had already taught:

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought (worked) in God."

That scripture summarizes everything you need to know about what the judgment is, and about how to be saved from the judgment, and what works have to do with salvation.

35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life (aionios zoe - the Life of the age); but he who does not obey (interesting word there. He went from "believe" to "obey" which shows you what God thinks of faith that is not dead) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The wrath of God is NOT a future punishment in hell. It has abided with man since the beginning, as the Devil has always been in the world. So, not only are they "judged already" they are abiding in that judgment by not believing in Christ. The judgment (loving darkness, hating light, working evil) abides in them, for they are carnal, sold to sin.

The only way to salvation is to believe in the Son AND obey him.