Tentmaker Forum

IN THE GUIDELINES OF THIS WEBSITE THE STATEMENT IS MADE EMPHATICALLY THAT ALL ARE NOT SAVED AT THIS TIME  BUT WILL BE IN DUE TIME AS GOD DRAWS EVERYONE TO HIMSELF WHICH BEGS THE QUESTION , WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WHEN HE SAID "IT IS FINISHED ?".

IT HAS BEEN MY UNDERSTANDING THAT JESUS MEANT THAT HE HAD COMPLETED THE WORK THAT HE HAD COME TO DO AS FORERDAINED FROM BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME , THAT IS "SAVE US FROM OUR SINS" BECAUSE WE ARE FORGIVEN OF ALL SINS PAST , PRESENT AND FUTURE.
GRANTED, NOT ALL ARE AWARE OF THIS "GREAT NEWS" BUT THAT IS THE REASON FOR EVANGELISM, TO TELL FOLKS THAT THEY ARE FORGIVEN, THAT GOD HAS SAVED THEM AND THAT THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO SAVE OURSELVES , IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD BY HIS GRACE AND ULTIMATELY WILL BE REALIZED BY EVERYONE IN DUE TIME BY THE FAITH AND LOVE "OF" CHRIST " NOT BY OUR FAITH "IN " CHRIST, FOR TO SAY THAT WE HAVE FAITH "IN" CHRIST IS TO SAY THAT WE DO SOMETHING OF OURSELVES TO BRING ABOUT OUR SALVATION.

TO ME THAT WOULD BE A "WORK" THAT WE WOULD DO TO SAVE OURSELVES AS IN SAYING " I ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOR " AS THE EVANGELICALS PROPOUND AND SOME HOW, MAGICALLY, WE ARE "SAVED".( CHECK OUT " THE TWO PILLARS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT " BY GARY AMIRAULT IN TENTMAKER,ORG. REGARDING THIS VERY SUBJECT.) THIS WOULD BE A MIXING OF THE MOSAIC LAWS AND GRACE WHICH HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM WITH THE CHURCH FOR THE LAST 1500 YEARS. WE CAN'T RESIST BUT SAY " THERE HAS TO BE 'SOMETHING' I CAN DO TO SAVE MYSELF!"

NO.

IT'S MY BELIEF THAT ALL ARE SAVED BUT JUST DON'T KNOW IT YET .
THEY HAVEN'T HEARD THE GOOD NEWS THAT EVEN THOUGH WE TELL THEM BY  CASTING THE SEED THOUGHTS OF THIS GREAT TRUTH  ONLY THROUGH THE SEED FAITH THAT COMES FROM JESUS HIMSELF AS EACH AND EVERYONE IS DRAWN TO GOD "IN DUE TIME" WILL ANY AND EVERYONE COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT THEY ARE SAVED THROUGH THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS AFTER WHICH THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE IS TO "WORK OUT OUR SALVATION" THROUGH THE DOING OF THE GOOD WORKS THAT GOD HAS PLANNED FOR EACH AND EVERYONE OF US SINCE BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.

I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT.

P.S. DEAR MODERATOR, PLEASE INDULGE ME FOR I'M NOT BIG ON CHAPTER AND VERSE QUOTATIONS . I LOVE READING AND STUDYING THE BIBLE AND WRITINGS BY PROPONENTS OF THE "VICTORIOUS GOSPEL " BUT WHAT "STICKS"  WITH ME IS THE TRUTH OF WHAT I READ AS REVEALED TO ME BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.  I TRY TO CONVEY THIS  IN MY DISCUSSION.  IF THIS IS GROUNDS FOR BEING REMOVED THEN GIVE ME FAIR WARNING AND I'LL TRY TO DO BETTER NEXT TIME. OTHERWISE , I LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO THE FAITHFUL  AND OTHER SEEKERS ON THIS SITE.

I think it's a good question, "what did Jesus mean by 'it is finished'".  Good study.

However, I don't believe it means everyone's already spiritually renewed, i.e., saved.    Paul taught God had reconciled Himself to man, but that not all men were reconciled to God ("be you reconciled to God") and that not all were "of the faith".

There's much to discern and study here (to "show ourselves approved" and "to see if those things be true").  However, just one passage I believe is vital to this discussion, is the following.  In it, when the man asked how to be saved, he wasn't told that he already was.  I believe it's clearly shown that he wasn't as yet, and then given what needs to happen so he would be. 

-Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will  be saved.."

As far as the mixture of works and grace, or Law and grace.  I don't believe us "doing" things is "Law" necessarily.  I believe there's a distinction between works of the Law and the "righteous works of Christ" in and through us ("you are His workmanship, prepared unto good works").    The "work" of salvation is not ours.  I believe we each are given the faith to believe on the Lord Jesus as savior, i.e., in His death and resurrection for our redemption from sin/death - when HE deems it time and according to His will and plans.  The jailer could not believe on His own.  I believe in the scripture the man was drawn by the Holy Spirit, then given the faith to believe.  He needed to know what to do though.  However, though in us and through us, the work is the Lord's.  It's a free gift.

THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE, JABCAT AND BASICALLY, I AGREE WITH YOU BUT I STILL THINK THAT THE MAN THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO FROM SCRIPTURE WAS ONE WHO WAS DRAWN TO GOD TO EVEN ASK THE QUESTION .
HE WAS SEEKING, ( AND WHEN WE ARE SEEKING WE ARE READY FOUND BY THE LORD IN MY THINKING) AND, OF COURSE, HE WAS TOLD TO BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS WITH, I THINK,  THE FAITH THAT JESUS HIMSELF GIVES US  I.E. THE FAITH "OF" CHRIST. 
HE WAS EVANGELIZED, CAME TO THE REALIZATION THAT HE WAS SAVED, BELIEVED WHAT HE HEARD AND DECIDED TO MOVE TOWARD THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
TO SAY THAT HE WAS SAVED AT THAT POINT IS MOOT TO ME.
AS FOR BEING SPIRITUALLY RENEWED OR "SAVED" IF YOU WILL , WELL, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO GROW IN US .
THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE SAVED AND ARE BEING SAVED AT THE SAME TIME.
WE ARE BORN AGAIN AND BEING BORN AGAIN AT THE SAME TIME, IT SEEMS TO ME, AS WE GROW FROM GLORY TO GLORY, AS WE ENLARGE OUR HEARTS BY BENDING OUR WILLS TO GOD'S WILL BY SUBMITTING OURSELVES TO GOD'S WILL IN OUR LIVES AND THANKS BE TO GOD EVEN WHEN WE STUMBLE A BIT IN THIS REGARD HE STILL CONTINUES HIS WORK IN US .
WHAT HAPPENED TO JESUS ON THE CROSS IS HIS FINISHED WORK AND WHAT IS HAPPENING THEREAFTER IS A PROCESS OF BECOMING CHRISTLIKE DAILY THROUGH THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US OTHERWISE KNOWN AS SANCTIFICATION, AS I SEE IT.
ALL THE SHEEP ARE BEING GATHERED.
NONE WILL BE LOST FOREVER EVEN IF IT TAKES TO THE NEXT AGE OR BEYOND FOR THE LORD TO DO IT.
NOW THAT'S THE BETTER GOSPEL TO ME.

at the end of the day, when my work is done, it is finished. Jesus said,"I have a baptism to undergo and oh how constrained until it is accomplished." Luke12:50

When Jesus died it was accomplished, the restoration of the whole creation was secured in that moment and since we are entering the finished work, each in his own order, through an administration executed through the completion of time, the gathering of all things into one in Christ.Eph 1:9-11

As believers we have entered into the finished work.

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness to dwell in Him and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself,by the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven or things on earth.(Col 1:16-21)

Everyone else in the world, in times past and now and in the age to come, who has not yet seen the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ, has yet to enter the finished work, but they will, everyone, be brought in by the progressive revelation of His love that is "the glorious liberty of the sons of God"- into which the whole creation will be drawn in the ages to come, each in their own order, through the dispensation of the fulness of times, by the revelation of the sons of God(1 Cor 15, Romans 8).

Therefore we labor diligently to enter into His rest, ceasing from our own works and entering into those works which were ordained from the foundation of the world(Heb 2-4), that we should walk in them- as ministers of reconciliation, proclaiming this word of reconciliation, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

2 Cor 5:17,18 So if anyone be in Christ Jesus old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new [/i]and all things are of God who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and has entrusted us with that ministry of reconciliation, how that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not counting their offenses against them, and putting in us that word of reconciliation.

Behold, I am making all things new. :o)

:2c:

THANK YOU EAGLESWAY AND GOD BLESS YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE.
WHAT BEAUTIFUL SCRIPTURES AND HOW TRUE THEY ARE BUT BASICALLY, WHAT YOU HAVE SAID IT SEEMS TO ME IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING .

CHRIST HAS DONE THE SAVING WORK AND IT IS A PROCESS FOR EVERYONE TO COME TO REALIZE IT IN GOD'S DUE TIME THROUGH THE FAITH CHRIST GIVES US TO DO SO.

EVEN REPENTANCE ( CHANGING OUR MINDS ABOUT CHRIST AND MOVING TOWARD HIS LIGHT FROM DARKNESS)  IS A GIFT OF GOD, TO DO SO , I BELIEVE.

Quote from: T-Bone on November 17, 2013, 11:10:16 PM
HE WAS EVANGELIZED, CAME TO THE REALIZATION THAT HE WAS SAVED, BELIEVED WHAT HE HEARD AND DECIDED TO MOVE TOWARD THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.

Hi T-Bone, good to meet you and talk to you. With all due deference, I believe there is a misunderstanding in UR regarding the idea of all being saved now. I do not believe that we come to a realization that we are already saved. I believe we come to a realization that we are reconciled by his death, and if being reconciled by his death, how much more so, shall we be saved through his LIFE.

Reconciliation is in that God has made peace with mankind and has taken away the Law no longer COUNTING his sins against him. On the other hand, the carnal mind is enmity against God, and that is the other part of being reconciled back to him. He is not at war with mankind, but at war with sin. That is the work Christ is doing by his LIFE unto salvation: the gift of the Spirit. He is saving us from the carnal mind.

I'M WITH YOU ON THAT, SETH AND AGREE.
MAYBE WE'RE HAVING A QUESTION OF SEMANTICS HERE MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE I.E. WHEN I SAY THAT ONE REALIZES THAT HE OR SHE IS SAVED , I'M BASICALLY MEANING WHAT ALL OF YOU HAVE BEEN TELLING ME BUT I'M PUTTING IT IN A CONDENSED FORM USING THE WORD "SAVED" PRIMARILY, WHICH IN ITSELF WOULD BE ANOTHER VERY INTERESTING THREAD.
JUST WHAT DOES IT MEANT TO BE "SAVED"?
THIS CURRENT EXCHANGE WOULD GO A LONG WAY IN ANSWERING THAT.
I LOVE ALL OF YOUR RESPONSES AND AGREE WITH ALL OF THEM.
YOU ARE ALL TEACHING ME MUCH  BUT YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT WHEN I TALK TO FOLKS AND PRIMARILY THE COMMON MAN I USE LANGUAGE LIKE I'VE EXHIBITED IN THIS THREAD.
MY TRACTS ( APPROVED BY MY WIFE AND GARY AMIRAULT BY THE WAY) ARE DESIGNED TO REACH EVERYONE IN A LANGUAGE THAT IS EASILY UNDERSTOOD WITH THE HOPES THAT THE SEED THOUGHT WILL TAKE ROOT AND LEAD TO DEEPER INVESTIGATION .
YOU FOLKS KNOW YOUR BIBLE FOR SURE AND I RELISH THAT.
ALTHOUGH I WILL TURN 70 IN LESS THAN A MONTH I AM SEEING THINGS IN A WAY THAT I NEVER HAVE SEEN BEFORE THANKS TO YOU GUYS , TENTMAKER.ORG AND OTHERS + THIS WEBSITE IS AWESOME.
PRAISE GOD THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS LEADING US  INTO ALL TRUTH!

Quote from: T-Bone on November 18, 2013, 03:57:58 AM
JUST WHAT DOES IT MEANT TO BE "SAVED"?
THIS CURRENT EXCHANGE WOULD GO A LONG WAY IN ANSWERING THAT.

Here is what I think it means to be saved. I will explain through two scriptures, although there are MANY more.

Matthew 1:20-21
An angel from the Lord came to (Joseph) in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus, because he will save (sozo - heal) his people from (Greek apo - to separate from) their SIN."

Here is what you hear from all manner of denominations and views on what man is saved from:

• Hell
• Annihilation
• 70AD
• punishment for sin
• the second resurrection
• the second death

However, the angel doesn't mention anything like that. The scripture literally says he shall: "save his people FROM their sin."

First, God peace with man through Christ's death
Then, Christ brings man's salvation from sin through his LIFE.

Here is how:

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


That is how man is saved by Christ's LIFE, having been already reconciled: by being "quickened together" being joined together with Christ unto a renewal of the mind, so that we cease: "walking in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"

We are not saved by OUR works, but by the work of Christ.

I have more info here in case you are interested: Judgment of the World by the Cross (http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html)

T-Bone so please to discuss this wonderful question with you.
     
Jhn 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

What exactly did Jesus Finish?

To reveal the Father (Matt. 11:27)
"All things have been committed to me by my Father.  No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

To be a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28)
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

To serve (Matt. 20:28)
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

To save the world (John 3:17; Luke 19:10)
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

To preach the good news of the kingdom of God (Luke 4:43)
"But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent."

To bring division (Luke 12:51)
"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division."

The above verse has long been misunderstood. Yes, division did result but only because the good news that Jesus taught was not accepted. However; his message was available to any whom at ears to hear and eyes to see.

Eph 2:14
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.

Eph 2:15
He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.

To do the will of the Father (John 6:38)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."

To give the Father's words (John 17:8)
"For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.  They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me."

To testify to the truth (John 18:37)
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.   Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king.  In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth.  Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

To die and destroy Satan's power (Heb. 2:14)
"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death -- that is, the devil."

To destroy the devil's works (1 John 3:8)
"He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.  The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work."

To fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

To give life (John 10:10,28)
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full... I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

To taste death for everyone (Heb. 2:9)
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

To become a high priest (Heb. 2:17)
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

To atone for sin (Heb. 2:17)
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

To proclaim freedom for believers (Luke 4:18)
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.  He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed."

To proclaim the year of the Lord's favor (Luke 4:19)
"to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

To bring judgment (John 9:39)
"Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

To take away sin (1 John 3:5)
"But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin."

To preach (Mark 1:38)
"Jesus replied, 'Let us go somewhere else -- to the nearby villages -- so I can preach there also. That is why I have come.'"

To call sinners (Mark 2:17)
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.  I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'"

To know who is true (1 John 5:20)
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true.  And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ.  He is the true God and eternal life."

I believe the above creates a great overall picture of what Jesus completed. But all of this is of mute value if one chooses to ignore the operative word: Finished.

What this means is that there is NOTHING one can do to add to or take from what Father, through Jesus set in place. Some may believe that they are not yet saved, or that they are still enslaved to sin; yet in doing so, they are denying that Christ's work is indeed finished. Certainly, being willed a million dollars does not allow one spend money like it is going out of style. However, one should be able to sleep a little more peacefully, worry less and live in relative peace; knowing that even if things a tight now they wont be forever. The money is as good as money in the bank.

How much more joyful is it to the one who is notified that they were willed a million dollars and it's there's now? We are saved, we have been forgiven. It is not a promise but a given. Jesus destroyed sin and Paul said that we are dead to sin; why persist on bringing what is dead back to life?

Jesus had set in motion the coming of the Spirit of Truth; he had preached the Kingdom of His Father  and glorified His Father in his every word and action.

It matters not a all if any or all accept what Jesus completed or none at all, the completion of his work is not contingent on being believed. The method may differ, but the result is a given. Honestly, knowing this should bring the best days of one life. For surely the old will have passed away and the light of Love, Truth and Peace will show our world for what it truly is: our playground in which to learn and practice Love while living in complete and utter gratitude. :dsunny:

Rom 6:4
For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
   
2Cr 5:17
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!


Much Love to you,

Julie  :HeartThrob:

SETH/JULIE TANG 84!

GOD BLESS YOU BOTH AND TO ALL THE REST OF YOU WHO HAVE RESPONDED TO THIS THREAD.
I AM FILLED WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD'S REDEMPTIVE WORK THROUGH OUR PRECIOUS LORD AND SAVIOR THANKS TO YOUR "FEEDING "ME .
MUCH OF WHAT YOU HAVE SAID I ALWAYS SENSED IN MY HEART BUT IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE THE TANK "FILLED " AGAIN.
CAN WE EVER GET ENOUGH OF THIS GREAT NEWS?
I THINK NOT SINCE WE ALL TEND TO FORGET.
IT IS GOOD TO BE REMINDED ONCE AGAIN AND YOU HAVE DONE THAT.
MY PRAYER FOR YOU ALL IS THAT YOU WILL BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST DAILY.
I THINK WE ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT TO WHAT "IT IS FINISHED" MEANS, DON'T YOU?
I THINK WE ARE FOR SURE.

 
   great answers  and good question T bone
I too love straight and direct simple answers  :thumbsup:

and to me the answers are always in His Word   Jesus come to complete and bring in the new testament witness promises of God  though Him


THE QUESTION , WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WHEN HE SAID "IT IS FINISHED ?".


Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father has sent me.




1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.  
   

Hbr 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 


Hbr 9:15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.   
Hbr 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 


Hbr 9:17   For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 


Hbr 9:18  Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 


Hbr 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 


Hbr 12:6   For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.

Quote from: JulieTang84Some may believe that they are not yet saved, or that they are still enslaved to sin; yet in doing so, they are denying that Christ's work is indeed finished.

I do believe many people are still enslaved to sin. It's self evident. They are not saved by Christ's death, but by his life. Hitler was enslaved to his wrath. The junkie is enslaved to drugs. The pornography addict is enslaved to pornography. The way out is through the LIFE of Christ. Unhealed people are not healed.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

IMHO, not enough people in UR are seeing the difference between what happened by Christ's death, and what happens by his life. "It is finished" applies to reconciliation of the world. But he was raised 3 days later, to bring Light and LIFE to the captives and set them free from their slavemasters.

Quote from: Seth on November 18, 2013, 06:01:45 PM

Quote from: JulieTang84Some may believe that they are not yet saved, or that they are still enslaved to sin; yet in doing so, they are denying that Christ's work is indeed finished.

I do believe many people are still enslaved to sin. It's self evident. They are not saved by Christ's death, but by his life. Hitler was enslaved to his wrath. The junkie is enslaved to drugs. The pornography addict is enslaved to pornography. The way out is through the LIFE of Christ. Unhealed people are not healed.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

IMHO, not enough people in UR are seeing the difference between what happened by Christ's death, and what happens by his life. "It is finished" applies to reconciliation of the world. But he was raised 3 days later, to bring Light and LIFE to the captives and set them free from their slavemasters.

Dear Seth,


Jesus uttered the words: It is finished before he died. There is nothing anyone can do to not be saved. Much like the million dollar simillie, whether one wants it ot not doesn't change the fact that the will recieve the money.


Begin "saved" is not contingent on it being realized; however, knowing it is priceless. I agree with you though, Jesus does save through his LIFE not by his death.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 18, 2013, 08:42:54 PM
Begin "saved" is not contingent on it being realized; however, knowing it is priceless. I agree with you though, Jesus does save through his LIFE not by his death.

So then it makes sense for us to distinguish "reconciliation" from "salvation." They are NOT the same thing if the Bible says they are not the same, and they are not accomplished by the same methods if the Bible says they are not.

The realization people are to have is one of reconciliation. The PRODUCT of that reconciliation is for them to believe, recieve Grace and be saved from sin. If everyone is already saved from their sin, then the following scripture has NO application:

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If everyone needs to realize that they are already saved, than Paul's language here is very odd. Shouldn't he be saying: "hath appeared to all men teaching them that they are already saved?" But no, he shows us that the salvation is in how God, through Grace, teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.

That is why I say that those who are addicted to pornography are NOT saved from pornography and we UR folks shouldn't be saying they are. We should not say to a captive "you are free" without giving them the KEY to their release. When people went to the Lord for physical healing, he didn't say "you are healed you just don't know it." He ACTUALLY healed them. The Gospel of salvation from Sin is no different.

To me it seems that many in the UR message are saying to people who are stuck in the jaws of a shark: you are already saved from the shark! Then walking away.

 :thumbsup:  I agree Seth , its what the Word of God says  as well


1Th 5:21   Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 


1Th 5:22   Abstain from all appearance of evil. 


1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

Another scripture to consider:

Romans 10:9-10
If (Greek - ean, a conditional particle) thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (sozo - healed).

For (because) with the heart man believeth unto (Greek - eis - toward) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto (Greek - eis - toward) salvation.

Not only does Paul not say that salvation has already occurred, he also places a conditional statement on it. IF you confess, you will be saved. The logical reverse: If you shall NOT confess, you shall NOT be saved. Why?

Because with the mouth a man confesses UNTO salvation. Why? Because we have "access unto this grace by faith" (ROMANS 5:2) and by grace we are saved from sin by the TEACHING of God.

Hebrews 12:1
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Quote from: rosered on November 18, 2013, 09:04:03 PM
:thumbsup:  I agree Seth , its what the Word of God says  as well


1Th 5:21   Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 


1Th 5:22   Abstain from all appearance of evil. 


1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup:  :dsunny:

WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE DON'T SLIP INTO THE SALVATION BY WORKS MENTALITY THINKING THAT THERE IS SOMETHING AFTERALL THAT WE MUST DO TO SAVE OURSELVES. 

I AGREE, JULIE, THAT WHEN JESUS SAID THAT IT IS FINISHED , HE MEANT IT AND NO ONE CAN DO ANYTHING TO UNSAVE THEMSELVES.
ACTUALLY, IT WAS FINISHED BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME .
CHECK OUT GODFIRE.NET AND LOOK UP ERWIN ROACH'S ARTICLE ON "THE LAST DAY" .
AN EXCELLENT READ AND AN EYE OPENER.

ALSO, SETH, NO MAN CAN SAY THAT JESUS IS LORD EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US SO TO MAKE A CONFESSION THAT JESUS IS LORD CAN ONLY BE DONE BY THE FAITH " OF " THE SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST IN US, NOT BY ANYTHING WE DO OF OURSELVES, BECAUSE IN OUR CARNAL STATE, IN THESE CORRUPTIBLE BODIES, WE COULD REALLY CARE LESS.
THANK GOD THAT "HE" DRAWS US TO HIMSELF AND DOES THE SAVING WORK IN US WHICH I THINK IS CLEARLY WHAT ALL THE EPISTLES OF PAUL ARE SAYING.

Really, the only way to come to the "already saved" conclusion is to greatly generalize the scriptures. When you get down to what the scriptures actually say, it's an indefensible doctrine.

Here is where sin lives:

Romans 7:18-20
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

If sin dwells within us, then the LIFE of Christ dwells within us to SAVE us from that sin.

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds (works)? Can such faith save them?

The answer is: NO!  :dontknow:

Throughout generations, Christians have had a problem resolving that scripture to their beliefs, but there is no problem if you understand the context:

James 1:19-21
My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save (sozo - heal) you.

The salvation is not from HELL, but from "all moral filth." Indeed works CAN save us because if we are doing the good works prepared by Christ, then we are NOT doing "all moral filth," and thereby we have been saved from transgressions and sin. But they are not OUR works:

Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (katermagozahee - outwardly work) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

The working of the internal salvation outwardly is not our own, but by grace which teaches man to do good works:

Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done (by the Law of Moses), but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I don't know how the "already saved" UR belivers can resolve these scriptures, again, without REALLY generalizing and not addressing them.

Galatians 3:14
In Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (sozo - made whole, healed) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Again agree with you Seth!! 
and its the works of the Father and Son  , those are the living works   done and doing in you


To HIS GLORY !!!


Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 

Jhn 14:11   Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.   
Jhn 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 


Jhn 14:13   And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 


Jhn 14:14   If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 


Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. 


Jhn 14:16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 


Jhn 14:17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 


Jhn 14:18   I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  


Jhn 14:19 ¶ Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 


Jhn 14:20   At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 

Nobody can say it quite like Jesus himself, right rosered?  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Seth on November 18, 2013, 10:41:29 PM
Really, the only way to come to the "already saved" conclusion is to greatly generalize the scriptures. When you get down to what the scriptures actually say, it's an indefensible doctrine.

The working of the internal salvation outwardly is not our own, but by grace which teaches man to do good works:

Amen. 

SETH/ROSERED / JABCAT:

I APPLAUD YOU FOR YOUR DEFENSE OF YOUR POSITION ON THIS SUBJECT BUT DO NOT CONSIDER THAT I HAVE BEEN MAKING GENERALIZATIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES ANYMORE THAN I CONSIDER YOU "SPLITTING HAIRS " BY SENDING ME A BARRAGE OF VERSES THAT YOU THINK "CLEARLY" VINDICATE YOUR POSITION .

I KNOW THAT YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE CORRECT AND MAYBE YOU ARE BUT I MAY BE CORRECT , ALSO ,FOR WE BOTH READ THE SCRIPTURES AND SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY AND THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAT THE DEVIL WOULD LIKE THAN TO DIVIDE US ON THIS OR ANY OTHER BIBLICAL ISSUE THROUGH ARGUMENT.

I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO ANYTHING LIKE THAT ON THIS WEBSITE FOR IT WOULD NOT BE CONDUCIVE TO UNITY IN CHRIST AND I HOPE YOU ALL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS.

T-bone, it's OK to express/discuss.  You're right, no one needs to "argue/debate".  That said, I didn't realize there was a huge amount of disagreement from looking at everyones' posts.   :search:

Let's make sure we're all talking about the same thing/understanding each other.  I looked at Mr. Roach's article.  Please correct me if I'm wrong - it's a long article and I only scanned it.  My impression was not that he believes everyone is already saved/spiritually reborn - but that they all WILL be. 

Seth and rose were also addressed in your post, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   I do believe Jesus "accomplished" the means to that ends on the cross, paid the sin debt for mankind (death, both spiritual and physical) - as well as fulfilling all the requirements of the Law.  That was finished.   He was the Lamb slain, the perfect sacrifice, the way to the Father - not through works of the Law.       

I believe He did (finished) many other things with His death and resurrection, including that from before the foundation of the world He knew exactly who was going to be brought into the fold, and when - and the cross was vital to that.  Therefore, technically it was "accomplished"; but literally, in what we know as "time", is still to be brought to a conclusion, i.e., when God is All in all.   So to my understanding, of course "it is finished" means something major - I just think the belief that all are already saved can't be reconciled with a whole host of other scriptures. 

So to the question of the OP, again, good question.  My thought is, He meant many, very specific things when He said "it is finished" (and I don't claim to know them all!).  However, as He didn't say "everything is finished", then I believe He's still working His "plan" and will in mankind, which is not finished, and will only end in Him being All in all.  To my understanding, that involves Him eventually drawing the majority of mankind to Him and giving them the faith to believe/trust/adhere to Him as Savior.   :2c:

Quote from: T-Bone on November 19, 2013, 01:07:55 AM
SETH/ROSERED / JABCAT:

I APPLAUD YOU FOR YOUR DEFENSE OF YOUR POSITION ON THIS SUBJECT BUT DO NOT CONSIDER THAT I HAVE BEEN MAKING GENERALIZATIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES ANYMORE THAN I CONSIDER YOU "SPLITTING HAIRS " BY SENDING ME A BARRAGE OF VERSES THAT YOU THINK "CLEARLY" VINDICATE YOUR POSITION .

I KNOW THAT YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE CORRECT AND MAYBE YOU ARE BUT I MAY BE CORRECT , ALSO ,FOR WE BOTH READ THE SCRIPTURES AND SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY AND THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAT THE DEVIL WOULD LIKE THAN TO DIVIDE US ON THIS OR ANY OTHER BIBLICAL ISSUE THROUGH ARGUMENT.

I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO ANYTHING LIKE THAT ON THIS WEBSITE FOR IT WOULD NOT BE CONDUCIVE TO UNITY IN CHRIST AND I HOPE YOU ALL AGREE WITH ME ON THIS.

T-Bone,
in response to the bolded portion above, I wasn't talking about you, but about a doctrine within the belief in universal salvation which submits that all have already been saved. It wasn't an attack on you, because I am not sure that you believe that or not. Simply it was to say that for those who hold a belief like that, I am not sure how they deal with scriptures like that. My purpose is not to divide but to reason with you about it. I do believe the scriptures validate what I am saying, but they are not meant as a "barrage." The scriptures are beautiful and meant to give us information we Christians dearly need. I am simply providing them to show you why I believe as I do.

If I am wrong in what I say, I would need to be shown from the scripture itself, not any other way.

Some other verses to consider. John 3 is an AMAZING chapter to understand this stuff. Here are some of the fine points. I have posted this in other threads, but I think it very much applies here.

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the  only begotten Son of God.

I posted a scripture from Romans 1 a few posts back which showed that God's wrath is in that he has turned man over to a sinful mind to defile himself and receive in his own person the recompense for his error. This wrath has been in effect since the Garden of Eden, God allowing man to pursue the darkness and reap the bad fruit which comes of a bad tree.

Paul was teaching what Jesus had already taught:

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought (worked) in God."

That scripture summarizes everything you need to know about what the judgment is, and about how to be saved from the judgment, and what works have to do with salvation.

35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life (aionios zoe - the Life of the age); but he who does not obey (interesting word there. He went from "believe" to "obey" which shows you what God thinks of faith that is not dead) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The wrath of God is NOT a future punishment in hell. It has abided with man since the beginning, as the Devil has always been in the world. So, not only are they "judged already" they are abiding in that judgment by not believing in Christ. The judgment (loving darkness, hating light, working evil) abides in them, for they are carnal, sold to sin.

The only way to salvation is to believe in the Son AND obey him.

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2013, 01:48:10 AM
I know Seth and rosie, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   

Yes, the salvation of the whole world is a process from beginning to end, from revelation to belief to obedience to salvation. I believe this will occur for ALL mankind.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on November 19, 2013, 01:58:33 AM

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2013, 01:48:10 AM
I know Seth and rosie, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   

Yes, the salvation of the whole world is a process from beginning to end, from revelation to belief to obedience to salvation. I believe this will occur for ALL mankind.  :HeartThrob:

  Yes James and Seth  you are right I do believe in the salvation of all  , its just not so  for all here and now ,
  I cannot  be on here as much as times past and am so sorry T bone you  percieved  that I was   at odds with you
  not at all   , just   trying to explain    the stance  with scriptures I agree with the scriptures 
as I know you do too  , its just how we  percive/see  the scriptures   and share  the views   from where we are at in  Spiritual growth   , we are all  living and learning or are  dying  trying   to understand   Gods plan for all of mankind  :Peace2:   
  I am glad you are here at Tent  , welcome !

JABCAT,

I REFERRED TO "THE LAST DAY" BY ERWIN ROACH IN REGARD TO "IT IS FINISHED" IN HIS BELIEF THAT IT WAS FINISHED BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME .
I'M INCLINED TO AGREE WITH HIM.
AS FOR THE PROCESS OF SALVATION WITNESSED IN THE MANY SCRIPTURES PERSENTED IN THIS  THREAD, I HAVE NOT DISPUTED THEM AT ANY TIME AND AM IN AGREEMENT WITH THEM ( AND HAVE SAID SO IN MY RESPONSES) AS EXPLAINING THE PROCESS THAT IS INVOLVED AFTER THE SAVING WORK THAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS.
IF I'M IN DISAGREEMENT OF ANYTHING IT WOULD BE THE INTERPRETATIONS MADE BY SOME ABOUT THESE SCRIPTURES.
IT IS MY BELIEF THAT HIS SAVING WORK IS FINAL AND ALL THAT'S LEFT IS FOR ALL TO BE DRAWN TO GOD IN DUE TIME .
ALL ARE SAVED AND ALL ARE TO BE SANCTIFIED( WHICH INVOLVES CHASTENING AND CORRECTION TO VARIOUS DEGREES FOR EVERYONE) EITHER NOW OR IN THE THE AGES TO COME UNTIL EVERY KNEE BOWS AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESSES THAT JESUS IS LORD.
THIS IS MY TAKE ON READING THE SCRIPTURES AND OTHER ARTICLES BY BIBLICAL MEN AND WOMEN .

SETH,

THE PROBLEM THAT WE ARE HAVING IS THAT YOU WANT A SCRIPTURAL "PROOF", IF YOU WILL, THAT WHEN JESUS SAID "IT IS FINISHED" HE MEANT THAT ALL ARE SAVED AT THAT MOMENT .
I DON'T HAVE ONE TO GIVE TO YOU.
JULIE TANG 84 SEEMED TO COME THE CLOSEST TO DOING THAT IN HER COMMENTS AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REDUNDANT FOR ME TO REPEAT IT OTHER THAN TO SAY THAT I CONCUR WITH HER OPINION FOR THE MOST PART.
ALL I HAVE IS MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE BODY OF SCRIPTURES FOUND IN THE BIBLE THAT TELLS ME THAT IT IS SO.
THAT IS OUR DILEMMA + THE GUIDELINES OF THIS WEBSITE WHICH I'VE SAID FROM THE GETGO I AM NOT GOOD AT BUT WILL TRY TO GET BETTER BUT I HOPE THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO HAVE OUR DISCUSSIONS WITHOUT FEELING THAT WE MUST STAY IN LOCKSTEP WITH SAID GUIDELINES IN REGARDS TO SCRIPTURAL "PROOFS".
IF THAT IS GOING TO BE UNACCEPTABLE FROM HEREON OUT THEN MAYBE I SHOULD BOW OUT GRACEFULLY AND WISH ALL OF YOU THE BEST IN YOUR FAITH JOURNEY.

FRANKLY, I THOUGHT THAT WE HAD A PRETTY GOOD START TO THIS THREAD BUT IT SEEMS TO HAVE TAKEN ON A CONTENTIOUS TONE AND IF I AM THE CAUSE OF IT , I ASK YOUR FORGIVENESS BUT I HAVE FELT SOMEWHAT CONSTRICTED( AND CONFLICTED) BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE REGARDING MY RESPONSES.

MY PRAYER IS THAT WE CONTINUE IN THE SPIRIT OF LOVE, UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT FROM HERE ON OUT.

THANK YOU ROSERED FOR YOU KIND RESPONSE.

SETH, I SEE WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM BUT RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.

JESUS HAS DONE THE SAVING WORK ONCE AND FOR ALL ON THE CROSS AND THE PROCESS FROM HERE ON OUT IS THAT OF BEING DRAWN BY GOD TO HIMSELF ( OF WHICH ALL WILL DO IN DUE TIME), THE SAVED COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT THEY ARE SAVED AND MOVE FROM DARKNESS TO LIGHT ( I.E. THEY REPENT, CHANGE THEIR MINDS, TURN TOWARD AND MOVE TOWARD GOD AND NOT AWAY FROM HIM ), CHRIST HAS BEGUN HIS WORK IN THEM AND WILL BRING IT TO COMPLETION THROUGH THE SANCTIFYING WORK OF HIS SPIRIT WITHIN THEM WHICH WILL INVOLVE CHASTENING AND CORRECTION IN VARYING DEGREES FOR EVERYONE FOR WE WILL ALL BE SALTED IN THE END AND EVENTUALLY IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME ALL WILL SUBMIT TO THE LORDSHIP OF CHRIST WHO WILL IN TURN SUBMIT TO THE FATHER WHO WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE.

AFTER THAT ONLY GOD KNOWS BUT IT WILL BE WONDERFUL FOR SURE.

Quote from: T-Bone on November 19, 2013, 03:58:11 PM
AS FOR THE PROCESS OF SALVATION WITNESSED IN THE MANY SCRIPTURES PERSENTED IN THIS  THREAD, I HAVE NOT DISPUTED THEM AT ANY TIME AND AM IN AGREEMENT WITH THEM ( AND HAVE SAID SO IN MY RESPONSES) AS EXPLAINING THE PROCESS THAT IS INVOLVED AFTER THE SAVING WORK THAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS.
IF I'M IN DISAGREEMENT OF ANYTHING IT WOULD BE THE INTERPRETATIONS MADE BY SOME ABOUT THESE SCRIPTURES.
IT IS MY BELIEF THAT HIS SAVING WORK IS FINAL AND ALL THAT'S LEFT IS FOR ALL TO BE DRAWN TO GOD IN DUE TIME .

In the sense that Jesus purchased the inevitability of salvation for everyone, I think Romans 5 is clear on that, so you and I both agree. It may seem that the distinction between "reconciliation" and "salvation" is not important but I think Romans 5:10 makes such a thorough and important distinction that I stick with that. The reason I make this argument is not to fight with you, but because I want to share the truth with people who are suffering under ET and Annihilationism. If I try to do that by saying everyone is already saved, and they give me a "barrage" of scriptures showing otherwise, it makes it hard to give credible testimony to what I believe, if I cannot explain those scriptures.

Many ETers read through these posts and my purpose is to give as clear a testimony as possible, and sometimes that involves terminology. Reconciliation is a lesser thing than salvation, which is why the Bible says "having been reconciled by his death, how much MORE, having been reconciled will we be saved through his life." I need to be able to explain that, and I can.

It is finished is a big word play (which of course doesn't rule out other interpretations)

Bride = kallâh = כּלּה = Pronounced as: kal-law
Bread = Challah = חלה = Pronounced as: khaw-law
Finished = Kalah = כלה = Pronounced as: kaw-law
The above words are pronounced quite similar.

The Shabbat in Jewish tradition is compared to a bride. Just as the veil of the bride is removed after the blessings have been recited, so are the Challah "unveiled" after the blessing is recited and the bread is about to be cut. The Challah is three breads braided into a lover's embrace of the couple with God in their relationship. It also represents the first three covenants that merge into one as the ultimate covenant: marriage. Info. 

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished ....
"It is finished" in Hebrew can be seen a play on word to reference to a wedding. He paid the Mohar ,bride's price.
"It is finished" in Greek often is said be a shorthand form of "tetelestai" which was written on legal documents to show a debt was fully paid. While some totally disagree with John 19:30 referencing to that word many assume Jesus was saying He paid our debts of sin on the cross. I agree with that but think there is a second meaning. It was also His payment of the Mohar the bride's price or bride's ransom.

As for the question " 'IT IS FINISHED' -WHAT DID JESUS MEAN BY SAYING THAT?"

IMO the following:

Jesus had a long row to hoe when he entered the world through Mary's womb.
He had to grow up, presumably resisting temptations all along the way.
He had to face much persecution during his ministry.
He had to keep on with his ministry right down to it's horrible end - crucifixion by the Romans!

But to answer the question, we must look at what was accomplished.
Divine law requires sacrifice for sin.
Jesus became the sacrifice for the corporate sin of the world.
When it was time for him to die, HIS WORK OF BECOMING OUR SACRIFICE WAS FINISHED.

So then all that was left for humans was judgment.
The overcomers are judged in this life, the believing non-overcomers and the unbelievers are judged later at the Great White Throne.
When Satan's accusations fly, Jesus will say,
"Yes, they are guilty as charged. 
But I am their kinsman, and by divine law, I have the right to redeem them. 
I have already paid the price. 
They belong to me."


Then the believers will be judged and receive their reward (the overcomers have already been judged and received their great rewards), and the unbelievers will be judged, purified, and brought home later.

:2c:

Quote from: JBerton on November 19, 2013, 07:49:15 PM
Then the believers will be judged and receive their reward (the overcomers have already been judged and received their great rewards), and the unbelievers will be judged, purified, and brought home later.

:2c:

:iagree:

And for the unbelievers, the Spirit and the Bride will say "come all that are athirst and drink freely of the water of life." There are none who are thirsty who will not heed those words.

Romans 8
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

And that, my friends, is worth a banana dance....  :banana:

Quote from: Seth on November 19, 2013, 01:58:33 AM

Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2013, 01:48:10 AM
I know Seth and rosie, and I'll venture to say that in no way do I believe they deny that on the Day of the Lord all will be fully reconciled to God.  It's just more so that it occurs in stages, i.e., some now (few), the rest "at His appearing".   

Yes, the salvation of the whole world is a process from beginning to end, from revelation to belief to obedience to salvation. I believe this will occur for ALL mankind.  :HeartThrob:

Seth, I believe we are on different pages here. T-Bone and I are talking of Spiritual salvation, not Physical, for the two cannot be compared.

Jesus Christ is Spirit who is:
   
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The Beginning and the END. Not and end to come.
   
1Pe 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

You see, to place Father and Christ Jesus in our time is to negate who they and what they really are. Time cannot contain them, neither can the universe, for all is within them; there is nothing without.

The salvation of all is complete. If we were to live another 9,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 yrs, there would still be nothing new under the Sun.
   
Ecc 1:9
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

The only ones who are NOT saved are the ones whom believe they are not (which includes the ones whom say they are but live OTHERWISE)

Salvation is a renewal of the heart, one becomes a new person and lives a new life because the former things will have passed away. This is NOT mere lip service, it is the light of all truth and Love taking precedence over carnality. For some, I am sure the change will be complete in an instant, for others (like myself) the process will take much longer.

One last thing: Saved from what? I mean and I believe so does T-Bone; that all are saved from DEATH and total torture in fire forever. If you are meaning first and second resurrections, I am certainly not  :friendstu:

Even so this is complete also, the end is written even though we are not there yet on this earth.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 19, 2013, 08:09:12 PM
You see, to place Father and Christ Jesus in our time is to negate who they and what they really are. Time cannot contain them, neither can the universe, for all is within them; there is nothing without.

Well, I have a different view on time and timelessness, but I don't want to digress. I acknowledged to T-Bone that if what he means is that the inevitability of all being saved is what Christ purchased on the Cross, then I agree. I simply filter it through terminology and phraseology that the Apostles actually use. No Apostle says that everyone is already saved, so I refrain from such phraseology myself even if I agree on the inevitability.

Quote from: JulieTang84The only ones who are NOT saved are the ones whom believe they are not (which includes the ones whom say they are but live OTHERWISE)

Again, I don't see the Apostles speaking in terms like this. They don't say that everyone needs to realize they are already saved. And it seems that you do not either because you say:

"Salvation is a renewal of the heart, one becomes a new person and lives a new life because the former things will have passed away. This is NOT mere lip service, it is the light of all truth and Love taking precedence over carnality. For some, I am sure the change will be complete in an instant, for others (like myself) the process will take much longer."

Right. You are looking FORWARD to all being saved. So NOT all are saved presently because NOT all are renewed presently. Exactly my point, and I believe the scriptures testify to it.

QuoteOne last thing: Saved from what? I mean and I believe so does T-Bone; that all are saved from DEATH and total torture in fire forever. If you are meaning first and second resurrections, I am certainly not  :friendstu:

A great and VERY important question. And, I thought I had answered it very thoroughly a few posts back. Please take a look.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on November 19, 2013, 08:41:37 PM
Right. You are looking FORWARD to all being saved. So NOT all are saved presently because NOT all are renewed presently. Exactly my point, and I believe the scriptures testify to it.

QuoteOne last thing: Saved from what? I mean and I believe so does T-Bone; that all are saved from DEATH and total torture in fire forever. If you are meaning first and second resurrections, I am certainly not  :friendstu:

A great and VERY important question. And, I thought I had answered it very thoroughly a few posts back. Please take a look (http://tentmaker.org/forum/welcome-central/'it-is-finished'-what-did-jesus-mean-by-saying-that/msg165563/#msg165563).  :HeartThrob:

I hope we both agree that there is no "Presently" in Father. He just is. Yes, not all are "saved" in a literal sense, because we are literally bound by the constraints of time. Thankfully Father is not. We cannot compare what is to what is to come, for what is to come has been since before creation. This is 
sometimes a difficult concept to grasp as means seeing Father at His Level, rather than bringing Him down to ours.


I hope you see and fully realize how this ties in with Scripture. Father's ways are so much higher than our ways as is His thoughts so much higher than ours also. How can His brilliance and majesty be comprehended? It simply cannot, but to limit it in any manner is to mold Father to our understanding.


Therefore, have realized this, the world is not the same world it was. Nothing is the same. A very dear friend once said that through Spirit our past can be rewritten. This was questioned for sure, until Father opened my eyes to the truth. Most everything we hold as true (our past experiences for example) are but an illusion, tainted by any hurts, anger or shame (etc.) Yet when through the Spirit such things are let go and the light of truth begins to shine, more often than not the memory COMPLETELY changes and past is rewritten.


As amazing as this is, we can also rewrite our own future. We know this with the constant reminders like: "Wow, I can't believe I didn't get angry over that!"


When one can look back over the years at the mistakes made and see nothing but a unsure child wandering around doing the best that they could, one will see the child they are still. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant when he said we must become as children.


I will certainly look at what you wrote earlier. Clearly I had not done so before commenting.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 19, 2013, 09:04:22 PM
I hope we both agree that there is no "Presently" in Father. He just is.

On the other hand,

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

QuoteYes, not all are "saved" in a literal sense, because we are literally bound by the constraints of time. Thankfully Father is not. We cannot compare what is to what is to come, for what is to come has been since before creation. This is  sometimes a difficult concept to grasp as means seeing Father at His Level, rather than bringing Him down to ours.

To be honest, I don't really see the Apostles preaching from the above perspective. Not to say that the "I AM" is easily understood. Just saying that, regarding the subject of salvation, I simply don't see the Apostles approaching it from the perspective of timelessness. Not that it's not an interesting thought, but that I don't see it wrapped up in their Gospel message. Rather, every time they broach the subject they constrict the salvation of all mankind to A HOPE which is to come that we patiently wait for (Romans 8) and never talk about the idea that it already is. At least, in terms of their various treatise on salvation, I always see them talking about a future hope and a present process, and the bulk of their message does read like that.

Therefore, it is good that we are clarifying all this with eachother.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteI will certainly look at what you wrote earlier. Clearly I had not done so before commenting.

I think it will clarify alot of what I am saying. In no way to I believe Hitler was saved from his sin and trespasses as he was murdering men women and children. I believe that would completely undermine what I believe the scripture says about salvation from sin. I do have a HOPE for that salvation of all, that ALL creation will be delivered from bondage, but I don't say that Hitler was saved, when the word for saved is linked to "healed." Those who are healed walk in the light.

Regarding the method or manner in which God says man is saved, I believe the scripture says that it is not a revelation that all are already saved which does the saving work. It is the active indwelling of the Holy Spirit through belief in Christ's gospel that brings salvation from carnality to the carnal mind.

Just to keep a very enlightening discussion alive.......
   
Rom 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Rom 6:10,11
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Paul hits this out of the ball park. Jesus died to sin for once and for all. He does not need to die again. Yet he lives to Father, Paul told us to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Father in Christ Jesus.

As a footnote: Of course there are many millions whom are blind to the truth by Fathers hand. These are still saved by all that Jesus has done, the weight of sin is no longer on the shoulders of any. They have little weight, because just like Eve in the garden, they are blind to the truth.

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We should both agree on this  :HeartThrob:
   
2Cr 5:14
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Yep, Jesus died for ALL.   :dsunny:

2Cr 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Is there any words in the Scripture that bring such joy and well-being? These are in my mind Father saying, come rest your weary selves in me.  :cloud9:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

   

Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 19, 2013, 09:55:54 PM
Just to keep a very enlightening discussion alive.......
   
Rom 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Rom 6:10,11
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Paul hits this out of the ball park. Jesus died to sin for once and for all. He does not need to die again. Yet he lives to Father, Paul told us to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Father in Christ Jesus.

If you look at the entire chapter of Romans 6, he is saying that the death of Christ is being realized DAILY for his saints to actively DIE to sin.

QuoteAs a footnote: Of course there are many millions whom are blind to the truth by Fathers hand. These are still saved by all that Jesus has done

Yet there is no scriptural proof of that. There is only scriptural proof that Jesus reconciled the world, not that the world has already been saved.

Acts 3
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

These are all time words, not timeless words.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

This does not happen through a realization of all mankind already saved. It happens through BAPTISM of the believer...

Luke 3
John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

You can reckon yourselves dead to sin, by BECOMING dead to sin, reckon that which is TRUE, not that which is FALSE. Paul did not reckon anyone dead to sin who was NOT baptized into Christ.

Galatians 3
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Again, nothing here about the idea that all mankind is already saved in a timeless state...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 18, 2013, 04:42:08 AM

Quote from: T-Bone on November 18, 2013, 03:57:58 AM
JUST WHAT DOES IT MEANT TO BE "SAVED"?
THIS CURRENT EXCHANGE WOULD GO A LONG WAY IN ANSWERING THAT.

Here is what I think it means to be saved. I will explain through two scriptures, although there are MANY more.

Matthew 1:20-21
An angel from the Lord came to (Joseph) in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. Then after her baby is born, name him Jesus, because he will save (sozo - heal) his people from (Greek apo - to separate from) their SIN."

Here is what you hear from all manner of denominations and views on what man is saved from:

• Hell
• Annihilation
• 70AD
• punishment for sin
• the second resurrection
• the second death

However, the angel doesn't mention anything like that. The scripture literally says he shall: "save his people FROM their sin."

First, God peace with man through Christ's death
Then, Christ brings man's salvation from sin through his LIFE.

Here is how:

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


That is how man is saved by Christ's LIFE, having been already reconciled: by being "quickened together" being joined together with Christ unto a renewal of the mind, so that we cease: "walking in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"

We are not saved by OUR works, but by the work of Christ.

I have more info here in case you are interested: Judgment of the World by the Cross (http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html)

That was very good, brother Seth..

to my mind, another way of saying it, or the way I find myself thinking of it.. (and of course I'm very prone to repeating myself :laughing7: ) is that God is Life, and also Perfection, thus to differ with God's will/Truth in any tiny way is to become imperfect, the very opposite of life.

It's my belief, life as we presently know it, is an unavoidable journey and LeSSon.. unavoidable if there's to be thinking ability that is.. for thinking ability includes with it, eventually.. the ability to make choices (not 'free-will' by a long shot but still the ability to choose, this is backed up I believe by the verse about the fallen angels having left their last estate/place.. and now they are in 'chains' awaiting judgment, or chains of judgment in that im-perfection cannot, cannot, reverse its course and make itself perfect, what with being, well, imperfect/sinners/flawed.)

I'm learning to be a little more patient with so many believers view that this is all somehow some flaw.. some mistake.. which God made. Er, excuse me? :LH: somehow the opposer was able to trick Him.. ah, yah right! that's crazy thinking!! to me..

So what's the other option? of course.. (imo) is God's all wise, knowing and all powerful intent.

I find myself having to suppose that before ever beginning the work of creating, the Father could see alll possibilities stretched out before his sight.. and then has done aLL things in order to bring about the absolute best of all possible 'end' results.

And because He is perfect, the 'end' result can onLy be, not only perfect, but the best of all possibilities. (Surely?)

I know I'm not using scripture references.. this is all from the answers i recieved almost 20 years ago when my son asked me two questions, which I answered, but not to my satisfaction at all.. so i prayed for better understanding.. and almost immediately, like bam! bam! bam! these answers came to me. (And in the 20 years since, imo, I have found the Bible supports it very well.)

My sons questions were "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

The whole thing ...(we are not an ant farm is the pandora's box, when God endowed thinking ability a whole new world, or tree, of possibilities, 'came to be'. Also now all suffer, some even horribly, but God, being Life, suffers, lives through and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur!! Why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but a family of many beautiful branches, and an eternally un-breakable paradise, unbreakable, because the full understanding of good from evil / life form death /  true from untrue, will be deeeeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche.. The knowing that to walk away from God/Life cannot be done, as it would be {w/o rescue/redemption} to merely self destruct in a puff of dust and smoke (the all important lesson of the Bk of Rev)

The whole thing (bam, bam, bam, that is) ended with a question coming to my mind, when I was in prayer, "why, did God wait SO loong, and only create the universe and man and woman, not only aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into outright revolt, sedition and trickery? Didn't God know.. what would happen? - I guess it was a twofold question..

God bless, sorry to be so long winded.. it's a flaw of mine..

My opinion of It is finished is
God is finished with any and all dealings concerning the flesh.
The flesh is none excitant.


Now six stone water jars had been set there for Jewish purification. Each contained 20 or 30 gallons.[c]
7 "Fill the jars with water," Jesus told them. So they filled them to the brim. 8 Then He said to them, "Now draw some out and take it to the chief servant."[d] And they did.
9 When the chief servant tasted the water (after it had become wine), he did not know where it came from—[i]though the servants who had drawn the water knew. [/i] He called the groom 10 and told him, "[i]Everyone sets out the fine wine first, then, after people have drunk freely,[/i] the inferior. But you have kept the fine wine until now."

After this, when Jesus knew that everything was now accomplished that the Scripture might be fulfilled, He said, "I'm thirsty!" 29 A jar full of sour wine was sitting there; so they fixed a sponge full of sour wine on hyssop[h] and held it up to His mouth.
30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "[i]It is finished[/i]!" Then bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.



And Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into Your hands I entrust My spirit."[q] Saying this, He breathed His last.

When it was noon,[h] darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.[j] 34 And at three[k] Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lemá[l] sabachtháni?" which is translated, "[i]My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me[/i]?"[m]
At that time Jesus was flesh hanging on the Cross  35 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "Look, He's calling for Elijah!" 36 Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, fixed it on a reed, offered Him a drink, and said, "Let's see if Elijah comes to take Him down!"
37 But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last. 38 Then the curtain of the sanctuary[n] was split in two from top to bottom. 39 When the centurion, who was standing opposite Him, saw the way He

• breathed His last, he said, "This man really was God's Son!"[p]
  From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over the whole land.[t] 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken[v] Me?"[w]
  
  darkness came over the whole land.[t] 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken[v] Me?"[w] Jesus see's that he is made flesh.bThus stopping the accusations of satan from rising up to God.47 [/b] When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling for Elijah!"
  48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge, filled it with sour wine, fixed it on a reed, and offered Him a drink. 49 But the rest said, "Let's see if Elijah comes to save Him!"[/color]
  
  This is how I see it today.

Quote from: marie glenI'm learning to be a little more patient with so many believers view that this is all somehow some flaw.. some mistake.. which God made. Er, excuse me? :LH: somehow the opposer was able to trick Him.. ah, yah right! that's crazy thinking!! to me..

:laughing7:

Seth, please know that I have ABSOLUTELY no disagreement with anything you state!!!!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Would you please just take a deep breath and follow along for just a minute.

There is the physical and the spiritual. We live in the physical but are told to worship in Spirit.

Father is outside of time as is Christ His Son. We are not. If all of us were truly physically saved, would we not all be walking on water? I believe so and more. I still sink and venture, you do to  :Chinscratch:


There are very few who understand that there sins are forgiven, yet it is more than knowledge. Because, knowing and still sinning is not enough. It is Father that changes hearts, thoughts and desires. Those whom he has called to himself, live through Christ, because of Christ. There is no doubt that very few trust Father enough to give themselves so away that they cease to be. As Paul said, the old man has died.


But and I mean BUT, if you believe that the price Jesus paid is NOT SUFFICIENT to reconcile and to bring everyone (even Hitler) to himself, then there is not a lot I can say to change your mind. (Ido not   think you do) If you think that Father and Christ are sitting in Heaven twiddling there spiritual thumbs just waiting for things to transpire, then we disagree on this also. This would mean that Father will not be complete until the last piece is accounted for. I believe that Father has no potentiality. He simply cannot wait, He simply is. So with this, comes the fact that there is no Before, Is or To Come. He is before everything, Is part of everything and he cannot come to any place he is not already.


Therefore His state is not contingent on anything happening, because nothing has the potentiality to happen. The life we live, the years we enjoy are so real to us, but it is like every life of every person is a interrelated movie script, written, directed, produced and acted that has always been.


So what I am saying is that no matter where we are, it is not where Father is. All that we know is not even so yesterday for Father, for there is no anything outside of him. We are saved, cleansed and wise beyond comprehension, yet in our dimensional plane we are totally unaware of it. There is much that needs to happen before we can join Father and Christ, but please know that it HAS already happened. 


I agree with all the Scriptures and all your words, but they pertain to this physical plane. Of course they were written for us, here and now and in NO WAY am I detracting from any of them. I commend you for sticking to your understanding and there is absolutely nothing but respect and love for you flowing through these finger tips.  :HeartThrob:


So, I will concede that all of this that I have written is of little value to any without the eyes to see. Sadly, neither is much of anything that is sound Scriptural UR, for it cannot be understood until Father grants understanding.


I hope this helps,
Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTangWould you please just take a deep breath and follow along for just a minute.

Julie, why do you think I need to take a deep breath? Were you with me when I wrote my posts? It seems that you are assuming my state of mind.  :Chinscratch:

QuoteBut and I mean BUT, if you believe that the price Jesus paid is NOT SUFFICIENT to reconcile and to bring everyone (even Hitler) to himself, then there is not a lot I can say to change your mind.

Julie, you have admitted to me that you haven't thoroughly read my posts before responding, which leads me to believe that you are the one who needs to take the breath (I mean that in good humor)

Didn't I distinguish between "reconciliation" and "salvation?" You are speaking as though I have not made the distinction...

QuoteSo with this, comes the fact that there is no Before, Is or To Come. He is before everything, Is part of everything and he cannot come to any place he is not already.

But the Bible does say he "is, was and is to come." That's baffling because you told me you have "absolutely no disagreement." But you just said "there IS NO before, is or is to come." And I showed from scripture that indeed there is... :doh:

I know you believe in the timeless state etc. But you seem to be denying the state of TIME when you say "there IS no before, is or to come."

If you believe in a timeless state, don't you also believe in a TIME state where Jesus "is, was and is to come" since those are scriptural declarations? It sounds like you are taking one, then denying the other by the above statement.

QuoteWe are saved, cleansed and wise beyond comprehension, yet in our dimensional plane we are totally unaware of it. There is much that needs to happen before we can join Father and Christ, but please know that it HAS already happened. 

I know you believe this Julie, but again, I don't see the Apostles teaching from this perspective of timelessness....like, ever. So my question to you is, why would I teach in a manner inconsistent with the Apostles?

2 Timothy 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which THOU hast heard of ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul wanted Timothy to hold fast to the pattern of sound words/teaching that he got from Paul. Paul never spoke about salvation from a timeless perspective the way you do. He just didn't do it. So why would Timothy? Why would I? Why would anybody?

A discussion on timelessness is interesting. But, as a matter of doctrine on salvation, it never enters into the equation in their teaching. By all means, believe what you like. But it is one thing to say that God needs to open my eyes to YOUR truth. But it's quite another thing for you to ESTABLISH your truth by way of HIS Apostles. I don't think you can do that, and I mean that with all due respect.  :HeartThrob:

But I am not commanded by scripture to teach Julie doctrine. I am commanded to teach Apostle Paul doctrine along with the rest of the Apostles. So, if the timeless-state approach to salvation is not systematically taught by them, I too see no need to subscribe to it.

No problem whatsoever bro Seth.  :HeartThrob:

Jesus Christ is the "Is, Was and Is to Come" Not Father. This is consistent with Jesus Christ being the beginning and the end. the first and the last.

Please know that I did skim through a lot of the posts and if said something and i missed it, it is my mistake and not yours. I also agree with you that the apostles did not teach of what I wrote and therefore, on face value it might appear that it has little value. I am certainly not preaching a new truth as nothing that I said (I hope) takes away from the Scriptures. You are steadfast in our understanding, persistent and consistent. This is a wonderful thing and I commend you for it.  :HeartThrob:

I grew up with so called wise learned men telling me who Father was and what He was. Their God was never the Father of my heart. Man's biggest mistake is to try to bring Father to their level.

Isa 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

How is it possible that all that is; our known universe as yet unbounded cannot contain Father? How is it that Father knows every hair on every head. How is it that Father knows every cell, every atom , every nuclei and every sub atomic particle? How indeed? Father is so far beyond comprehension that we can only marvel how someone whom knows so much, knows each of us personally; loving us as more utterly completely than any concept of love we could imagine. Father is Love, Love has no bounds or vice.

I think it important to release any boundaries or constraints that our understanding may impose. Who or what is this God in which we chose to believe? Is this not fundamental to the teaching of UR?

All this just a piece of the puzzle, Scripture is just as important, and as stated before, your understanding is surely Spirit given.

I do not believe I have offended you, but even so, I apologize.  :gimmefive:

Much Love, Julie :HeartThrob:

No worries, you didn't offend me at all. :HeartThrob:

JULIE/SETH:

I GROW IN THE GRACE AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD DAILY , LATELY AND IN PART , BECAUSE OF YOUR HEALTHY AND SPIRITED DISCOURSE.

GOD BLESS YOU BOTH.

I WAS THINKING THAT IT MIGHT BE TIME FOR A LTIILE CHURCH HUMOR, SO HEAR GOES.

A LITTLE BOY AND HIS PARENTS WENT TO SUNDAY SCHOOL AND CHURCH ONE DAY AND THE LITTLE BOY HEARD THE STORY OF HOW GOD TOOK ONE OF ADAMS RIBS WHILE HE WAS SLEEPING AND MADE EVE OUT OF IT.

HE PONDERED THAT FOR AWHILE AND SAID "OK . SO THAT'S WHERE WOMEN CAME FROM".

NOT THINKING TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT ANY MORE , THEY RETURNED HOME FROM CHURCH AND SAT DOWN FOR THEIR SUNDAY MEAL.  WHEN THEY HAD FINISHED, HE WAS TOLD BY HIS PARENTS TO GO LIE DOWN FOR A NAP WHICH HE DUTYFULLY OBEYED AND DID.

AFTER A LITTLE WHILE HE WOKE UP WITH A STOMACH ACHE AND RAN INTO THE LIVING ROOM WHERE HIS MOM AND DAD WERE AND COMPLAINED THAT HIS SIDE HURT AND SAID:

"I THINK I'M HAVING A WIFE!"

 :laughing7:

That simply made my day. Thanks T-bone  :LH:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Just adorable   T-BONE  :icon_jokercolor: , outta the mouth of babes  :winkgrin:

I DON'T THINK THE LORD MINDS US HAVING A LITTLE FUN EVERY NOW AND THEN DO YOU?

We are all looking through the glass darkly.  To assume otherwise is mere pride.  I doubt any of us understand these mysteries in completion.

What I believe is likely only a partial understanding...something that could never do the truth justice.  But, when Jesus said, It is finished.  I believe Him.  At that moment I believe all of mankind was reconciled.  Salvation I personally believe is bringing men to an awareness of this sacrifice, reconciliation and their need for God.  IMO, its about making men aware of something that is already theirs.

Quote from: T-Bone on November 20, 2013, 04:42:42 PM
I WAS THINKING THAT IT MIGHT BE TIME FOR A LTIILE CHURCH HUMOR, SO HEAR GOES.

A LITTLE BOY AND HIS PARENTS WENT TO SUNDAY SCHOOL AND CHURCH ONE DAY AND THE LITTLE BOY HEARD THE STORY OF HOW GOD TOOK ONE OF ADAMS RIBS WHILE HE WAS SLEEPING AND MADE EVE OUT OF IT.

HE PONDERED THAT FOR AWHILE AND SAID "OK . SO THAT'S WHERE WOMEN CAME FROM".

NOT THINKING TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT ANY MORE , THEY RETURNED HOME FROM CHURCH AND SAT DOWN FOR THEIR SUNDAY MEAL.  WHEN THEY HAD FINISHED, HE WAS TOLD BY HIS PARENTS TO GO LIE DOWN FOR A NAP WHICH HE DUTYFULLY OBEYED AND DID.

AFTER A LITTLE WHILE HE WOKE UP WITH A STOMACH ACHE AND RAN INTO THE LIVING ROOM WHERE HIS MOM AND DAD WERE AND COMPLAINED THAT HIS SIDE HURT AND SAID:

"I THINK I'M HAVING A WIFE!"

No, little one...having a wife feels like a pain somewhere else.   :happygrin:

I just kid ladies  :Peace2:

SHAWN,

YOU'RE TREADING ON THIN ICE THERE, MY FRIEND.

Quote from: shawn on November 21, 2013, 02:10:48 PM
We are all looking through the glass darkly.  To assume otherwise is mere pride.  I doubt any of us understand these mysteries in completion.

What I believe is likely only a partial understanding...something that could never do the truth justice.  But, when Jesus said, It is finished.  I believe Him.  At that moment I believe all of mankind was reconciled.  Salvation I personally believe is bringing men to an awareness of this sacrifice, reconciliation and their need for God.  IMO, its about making men aware of something that is already theirs.

Hi Shawn,
I don't disagree that making man aware of the sacrifice and the reconciliation is paramount to the process of salvation. But what I see missing in a lot of salvation doctrines is the importance of receiving the Holy Spirit, and this includes ET, to Annihilation, to even UR. We were always taught that salvation means, believing in Jesus so you don't go to hell. Therefore, salvation is complete in one instance according to the revelation of a piece of knowledge. That means the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation, just a word of knowledge.

It isn't the KNOWLEDGE of a doctrine that saves, but the belief in Christ leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, and the SPIRIT is what saves us from sin, in a daily process of walking....

Here is the basic Gospel salvation message as preached by Peter to the uninitiated:

Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

The prescription for salvation here is three parts:

1) Believe in Jesus Christ
2) Repent and be baptized receiving the Holy Spirit (I don't believe Peter was talking about water)
3) Save yourselves from this wicked generation (ie by being saved from sin)

1...2...3 BOOM! Done. Very simple.

However, the salvation message got twisted up into this:

1) Believe in Jesus Christ, to be saved from hell (and.....?)

That's it. That's all you hear. No necessity for the Holy Spirit, no need to be saved from "this untoward generation" nothing about sin, other than to make people scared of hell, but nothing about how sin itself is the judgment to escape from. My question is: why aren't we MIRRORING the salvation message of the Apostles? Probably because Christian doctrine has been messed up for many, many generations.

That is why I have been talking about all this in this thread. If the salvation message is this:

"Realize you are already saved....then...you will be saved" Where is the Holy Spirit in that message? It was obviously very important to the Apostles. So if I were to modify it, it would read like this: "Realize you are already saved...so that you can receive the Holy Spirit....then....be saved?"

What the heck happened to repentance?  :dontknow:

If you are already saved, then you don't need the Holy Spirit to cleanse you and save you from "this untoward generation." So this conversation has a lot to do with the salvation message itself. If a man comes up to you and says "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED" what are you going to say?

I would say exactly what Peter said...

Quote from: Seth on November 21, 2013, 06:24:26 PM

It isn't the KNOWLEDGE of a doctrine that saves, but the belief in Christ leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, and the SPIRIT is what saves us from sin, in a daily process of walking....

If you are already saved, then you don't need the Holy Spirit to cleanse you and save you from "this untoward generation." So this conversation has a lot to do with the salvation message itself. If a man comes up to you and says "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED" what are you going to say?

I would say exactly what Peter said...

:thumbsup:  Scriptural.  It's a miracle, not a realization.

 Quote by Shawn, "Salvation I personally believe is bringing men to an awareness of this sacrifice, reconciliation and their need for God.  IMO, its about making men aware of something that is already theirs."

It's strange how everyone sees things a little differently, but this is pretty much how I see things too.
 
Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.

I see the sacrifice Jesus made as a historical event where He came to do a job and did it. He was sent by the Father to be the savior of the world and he saved it. There is a big problem with the word 'saved' because it means to make well, heal, restore to health, which doesn't happen in a day. Depending on how you look at it, in one way everyone is saved already and in another way nobody is saved yet.

As for believing and having faith, faith doesn't make something true, like getting saved, it is believing something that is already true. 'You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free'. Being set free doesn't happen in a day either.

Just how I understand things. When I came to the knowledge of the salvation of all, one thing that I threw out the window was the them versus us thinking. I see everyone as a part of the one big family of the Father and some of the kids are badder than others but we are all being trained up in the way we should go by a perfect Father that knows how to get the job done right.

Quote from: bushyI see the sacrifice Jesus made as a historical event where He came to do a job and did it. He was sent by the Father to be the savior of the world and he saved it. There is a big problem with the word 'saved' because it means to make well, heal, restore to health, which doesn't happen in a day. Depending on how you look at it, in one way everyone is saved already and in another way nobody is saved yet.

Yes, I see it similarly according to this scripture:


Romans 4:17
17 (as it is written: "I have made thee a father of many nations"), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were.

In the same way, I say, the dead are alive. But I do so in the sense that it is NOT, but that it will be.

Quote from: bushy on November 21, 2013, 09:08:24 PM
  I see everyone as a part of the one big family of the Father and some of the kids are badder than others

Hi bushy..you're right, various understandings are interesting.  I'm not a literalist per say, but I do believe any of our beliefs about scripture should have a really solid (best as possible) foundation on actual scripture.  For example, there's a bunch of stuff I wish were a certain way, but apparently aren't.

Would you consider this about the above?  It's just a small point in this "already saved" discussion (which I believe is not based on actual scripture).  Anyway - how can the quote above be true, when the scriptures say there is a clear difference between a child of God and a child of the devil?  (I Jn 3:10)   

Also, I certainly do believe some are already saved, i.e., spiritually reborn.  There is a LOT of scripture that uses past tense/already done for the ecclesia (not for the world), mostly by Paul.  However, I also believe salvation (healing/delivering) is also progressive - spirit first, through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - then the process of sanctification walked out in this life [which some don't obtain in this age, although spiritually reborn] - and then finally, the redemption of our bodies [immortality] on the Day of the Lord.   So I believe it's scriptural that some are saved, being saved, and will be saved......while some are lost, and won't be saved at all until the next age.   :2c:

i'll delete this..but if responding/quoting, i edited my post above, as i wasn't sure/comfortable with some of it

since i just stated that if we believe something about scripture, that i believe it should be based on actual scripture...i decided i better abide by that   :laugh:

Quote from: jabcat on November 21, 2013, 09:27:05 PM

Quote from: bushy on November 21, 2013, 09:08:24 PM
  I see everyone as a part of the one big family of the Father and some of the kids are badder than others

Hi bushy..you're right, various understandings are interesting.  I'm not a literalist per say, but I do believe any of our beliefs about scripture should have a really solid (best as possible) foundation on actual scripture.  For example, there's a bunch of stuff I wish were a certain way, but apparently aren't.

Would you consider this about the above?  It's just a small point in this "already saved" discussion (which I believe is not based on actual scripture).  Anyway - how can the quote above be true, when the scriptures say there is a clear difference between a child of God and a child of the devil?  (I Jn 3:10)   

Also, I certainly do believe some are already saved, i.e., spiritually reborn.  There is a LOT of scripture that uses past tense/already done for the ecclesia (not for the world), mostly by Paul.  However, I also believe salvation (healing/delivering) is also progressive - spirit first, through the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - then the process of sanctification walked out in this life [which some don't obtain in this age, although spiritually reborn] - and then finally, the redemption of our bodies [immortality] on the Day of the Lord.   So I believe it's scriptural that some are saved, being saved, and will be saved......while some are lost, and won't be saved at all until the next age.   :2c:

1 John 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

This verse and others like it used to worry me because I didn't feel all that righteous or loving so for me it is difficult to see a CLEAR difference between people, sometimes, except for really bad people.   :laughing7: Mostly I agree with you, since it's obvious lots of people  aren't following God. The biggest thing is the word 'saved' which is an on going process, other than in the way Seth used it for God seeing things that aren't as though they are. And I really don't know what a child of the devil is. Because there are verses that say all are God's children. (I don't have time now to look them up) This is something I wish I really understood.

QuoteBecause there are verses that say all are God's children. (I don't have time now to look them up) This is something I wish I really understood.

Hi bushy,
It doesn't mean that the Devil created them. It means that they mirror the Devil in their actions. In a physical way, you LOOK like your father. In a spiritual way, they LOOK like the Devil by mirroring his actions, making them his children. The reason that Christ's faithful are Abraham's seed, is because they walk as Abraham did. (Romans 4:12). Whoever you mirror with your walk is your father. God is the father of all men in the sense that he physically created all people. But he is not their father in the sense that they mirror the actions of the Devil.

I'm glad we mostly agree bushy.  I do disagree that no one is saved now, as in spiritually reborn/given the gift of faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  Again, many scriptures say that.  "By grace are you saved...such were some of you"..etc.  "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that Jesus is Lord you will be saved."   There are many more.  But I also believe as I said earlier, there is an ongoing process ["growing in grace and knowledge"]- and a future process [body/immortality] as well.  But IMO, if someone has not been given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior (spiritually reborn, saved), then they're walking in darkness, and still need someone to tell them about Jesus ("how can they believe and call  upon whom they have not heard?" - Paul).  But not so with the true ecclesia, who are saved now (spiritually reborn/renewed) and continuing to be saved (growth, deliverance, healing).     I also agree that outside of time, God has established and accomplished all.  However, He placed us in time, to be walked out in ages.  He even also described Himself not only as past and present, but future.

I'm in a hurry, leaving a bit, so lumping some related things together from many other posts.   There is time and reality.  God's giving us CURRENT instructions as the ecclesia as how to operate in THIS AGE, in THESE bodies...   This is my opinion/current understanding.   To ONLY see things as physical is an error.  But to ONLY see things as spiritual is also error.  We're both.  God has established both.  He has given us many instructions for both.  So as Seth said and I agree, because God created all and gave all a spark of life, does not mean all is already completed, everybody's been given faith to believe on Jesus unto their salvation/regeneration...I believe we are to deal with ourselves and each other how the scriptures lay it out for the ecclesia today.  I personally don't believe in marking out parts of the scripture and saying "I see it different than this, I just see the spiritual, so this doesn't apply to me", etc.    :2c:

Recently in another thread we talked about trees.

The relationship between trees and seeds is interesting.

Jesus said, "And now the axe is laid to the root of the trees"

Yet we read that on either side of the river of life are trees of life"bearing fruit in se3ason and having leaves for the healing of the nations" and in Isaiah61:1-6, there is a portion, quoted by Jesus in the opening of His ministry:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me for the Lord God has anointed me to proclaim good tidings to the meek, to bind up the broken hearted; to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn.

To appoint unto all them that mourn in Zion; to give them beauty for ashes; the oil of for mourning; the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that you may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord; that He may be glorified.

And they shall build up the old wastes and raise up the former desolations , and they shall repair the waste cities the desolations of many generations....

And you shall be called priests of the Lord the Ministers of our God."

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and we hav been called ministers of reconciliation bearing the word of reconciliation.

This Word is the seed of the new tree, into which all will be eventually grafted.

"You can tell the tree by its fruit"and a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit gives good seed

The whole creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God who will set the creation free from futility(desolation/chaos/waste) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8

"And the Spirit bears witness that we are His children; and if children then heirs"

Our inheritance is the ministry of Jesus the Reconciler. We are grafted into the one tree. "Behold I am making all things new".

And every creature which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth and the sea and all that are in them I heard saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to the one who sits on the throne and the Lamb forever and ever".

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father"(phil 2:10) because "from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever.(Romanns 11:36)"

This is our inheritance.

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He purposed in Himself; that in dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things in earth; even in Him, IN WHOM WE HAV ALSO OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE; being predestinated acording to the purpose of Him who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will THAT WE SHOULD BE TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY WHO FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST!

wow. as I see it there was always only one tree. like branches in the dispensation of the fulness of times, other trees hav sprung up, been cut- off, been grafted in, been re-grafted in, been gathered and burned, been subjected to the ROOT OF JESSE, the shoot out of dry ground, the light shining out of darkness, the Reconciler Jesus.

We have the word of reconciliation, the only true seed,

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because the Lord God has anointed me to proclaim "good news" to the meek, and to bind up the broken hearted."

Blessed is the man whose delight is the law of the Lord, and in it he meditates day and night- He shall be as a tree planted by the streams of living water.

And I beheld, and from beneath the throne was a river of the water of life, and on either side of the river were trees.....

Isaiah 61:8-11

For I the Lord love judgment(discernment), I hate robbery for burnt offering, and I will direct their work in truth and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

And their seed shall be known among the nations and their offspring among the people and all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed that is blessed of the Lord.

I will rejoice in the Lord and my soul will be joyful in my God, for He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has clothed me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridgroom adorns himself with ornaments and a bride adorns herself with jewels

For as the earth brings forth her buds(the whole creation eagerly awaits!), as as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth, so the Lord will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations."

IMO its all there in Isaiah 61. The gospel of the restoration of the whole creation.

"For the heavens must receive Him until the period of the restoration of all things, which GOD has spoken of by the mouths of all the holy  prophets since the world began.(since the foundation of the cosmos) Acts 3:19

Remember, the word of God is not open to any private interpretation because no prophecy of scripture was ever given by man or the will of man, but holy men moved(God-breathed, oracles) by God.

All of this was contained in "the seed"- Christ and Him crucified- from the foundation of the world. God is drawing all into that "seed", but each in his own order, through the dispensation of the fulness(completion) of times- until God is all in all. The periods, the stages, the ages, the generations, they are being swallowed up into that divine moment where Jesus said, "It is Finished".

I really don't need to split all the details :o)

"The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated  - full of mercy and good fruit- without partiality or hypocrisy. For the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by them that make peace."

:2c: :laugh:

Quote from: jabcat on November 21, 2013, 09:05:49 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 21, 2013, 06:24:26 PM

It isn't the KNOWLEDGE of a doctrine that saves, but the belief in Christ leads to the indwelling of the Spirit, and the SPIRIT is what saves us from sin, in a daily process of walking....

If you are already saved, then you don't need the Holy Spirit to cleanse you and save you from "this untoward generation." So this conversation has a lot to do with the salvation message itself. If a man comes up to you and says "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED" what are you going to say?

I would say exactly what Peter said...

:thumbsup:  Scriptural.  It's a miracle, not a realization.

Amen and Amen again ! beautiful   Truth !

QuoteGod was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and we hav been called ministers of reconciliation bearing the word of reconciliation.

This Word is the seed of the new tree, into which all will be eventually grafted.

"You can tell the tree by its fruit"and a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit gives good seed

The whole creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God who will set the creation free from futility(desolation/chaos/waste) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8

"And the Spirit bears witness that we are His children; and if children then heirs"

Our inheritance is the ministry of Jesus the Reconciler. We are grafted into the one tree. "Behold I am making all things new".

AWESOME !     :thumbsup:  Christ being the Wisdom and power of God  The Tree of Life ,  no doubt   in the begining was the Word 

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat[/u].

Jhn 4:32   But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.    Jhn 4:33   Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 


Jhn 4:34   Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.   

  Praise God !

Quote from: rosered on November 22, 2013, 07:02:23 AM

QuoteGod was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and we hav been called ministers of reconciliation bearing the word of reconciliation.

This Word is the seed of the new tree, into which all will be eventually grafted.

"You can tell the tree by its fruit"and a good tree bears good fruit and good fruit gives good seed

The whole creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God who will set the creation free from futility(desolation/chaos/waste) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8

"And the Spirit bears witness that we are His children; and if children then heirs"

Our inheritance is the ministry of Jesus the Reconciler. We are grafted into the one tree. "Behold I am making all things new".

AWESOME !     :thumbsup:  Christ being the Wisdom and power of God  The Tree of Life ,  no doubt   in the begining was the Word 

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat[/u].

Jhn 4:32   But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.    Jhn 4:33   Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 


Jhn 4:34   Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.   

  Praise God !

:dsunny:

When Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.

So all the work for the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, was finished

Next Moses set up the surrounding courtyard for the tabernacle and the altar and hung a screen for the gate of the courtyard. So Moses finished the work.

Ruth the Moabitess said, "He also told me, 'Stay with my young men until they have finished all of my harvest.

Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed.

in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest. And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world,

Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, equip yourselves also with the same resolve—because the one who suffered in the flesh has finished with sin—

Quote from: dajomaco on November 23, 2013, 07:55:13 AM
When Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.

So all the work for the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, was finished

Next Moses set up the surrounding courtyard for the tabernacle and the altar and hung a screen for the gate of the courtyard. So Moses finished the work.

Ruth the Moabitess said, "He also told me, 'Stay with my young men until they have finished all of my harvest.

Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed.

in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest. And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world,

Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, equip yourselves also with the same resolve—because the one who suffered in the flesh has finished with sin—

good posting daj!!! :thumbsup: