Why "Tentmaker"

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

I am sure you are completely bored by each new person who shows up with a all the same questions. So I guess I am probably just trying to formulate what I beleive at your expense. I don't have much opportunity for feed back. So it is appreciated.

But my opinion is that when Calvin burned his old friend Servetus at the stake with his book strapped to his chest; it was his lifelong adherence to the doctrine of predestination that brought him to the point if doing such a thing with no appearance of remorse.
You can beleive God forced him to do it. You can beleive John Calvin was not responsible for his actions. I won't beleive that until God makes me beleive it.

I know, I know, Hunger, spare the rod, spoil the dead horse.

[Jock]

Eph 1:5  He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

He made us unique and deals with us such, He deals with us as individuals as well as a body, IN LOVE! IMO  :HeartThrob:

Shalom :Peace2:

Jock.

[sheila]

well..imo..what he did not not understand is this.  the Lamb was slaughtered before the founding of the world........all He did

foreknow[all men] He did predestinate[let us make men in our image]  all men are predestined and preknown to be in the image

of Jesus Christ and Father.  Pride and arrogance,makes people think more of themselves then they ought too. surely he is like abeast

in his carnal understanding...and though that man will have the kingdom restored and his mind[just like Nebuchaddnezer] he most

certainly will have had removed from him the pride arrogance boasting in his flesh.   Man without understanding is like the beasts

that perish.......I call it the Peter principle...boast yourself above others..and God will elevate the other's you boasted over above you.

     

[CHB]

Hi WIMR,

Here is an article that might be of help in understanding the will of man.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#4

CHB

[micah7:9]

What's truely amazing to me Wadif I.M. Rong is that you believe your posts are generated by your free will.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Whadif.....no, we are not bored by each new person.....that's what we're here for.

I think it helps if you think of the flesh realm as a school. There are all different ages in a small town school from K-12, and we're all at different "ages" in our walk. God wants us to learn from experience, and choose Him out of love, not out of there being no other choice but Him. How is it love if you've never known anything BUT Him? So we were lowered into this vanity, NOT willingly, but He subjected the same in hope, ie. Christ in you, the hope of glory (the greater glory).

Now because He loves us before we love Him and He is all wise, He knows what situations to put us in to make us choose, day after day after day, until we get it right, because He is not willing that any should perish. That doesn't mean we don't choose, that's the whole point of the school. Conversely, that doesn't mean He doesn't stack the deck, so to speak, out of His great love for us. But in this way, we participate.

It's been found that repetition improves children's learning and retention of what they learned. Ever go thru a test here and "fail" only to meet the same basic test down the road again? It's sort of like the difference between a sheep and a goat, whose name means to go in circles. A sheep will follow it's master over the mountain. A goat will go around and around and around the mountain so many times it actually makes a deep rut before it will obey and go over the mountain.

The sooner we decide to become as sheep, the less dizzy we'll be, going around the same mountain over and over and over again. Speaking as one who has circled a few mountains in my time.... :LH:

[eaglesway]

The martyrdom of Michael Servetus testifies to the wickedness of religion, especially dead religion bearing the name of Jesus Christ, and particularly the wickedness of John Calvin.


James 3:13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

[lomarah]

If I might add my two cents in - when it comes to free will and God's sovereignty, I believe they are both at play, simultaneously, and that it is one of those "great mysteries" we can't necessarily comprehend from where we're at.

Just my own personal belief.  :2c:

[HungerForTruth]

 :iagree:   In other words:  He is God.  We are not.    :declare:

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

If I might add my two cents in - when it comes to free will and God's sovereignty, I believe they are both at play, simultaneously, and that it is one of those "great mysteries" we can't necessarily comprehend from where we're at.

Just my own personal belief.  :2c:

I agree 100%  :gimmefive: , knowing that my agreement with you has 0 effect on what God is like.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

:iagree:   In other words:  He is God.  We are not.    :declare:

I was going to agree with you 100%, until I saw who made the post.

So instead I say:

He is God. We are not. Therefore we are more powerful because God cannot seem to escape our conception of him; put upon Him by an act of our will. And since our conception of him does not include free will, he never has allowed it and never can.  He is not strong enough to do that, because for Him to do it means we have to stretch our concept of God.
And we don't want to do that unless it would fit our agenda to do it. We would never do it with an issue that might challenge our agenda.

So in a Bible story where Gods will is clearly influenced by mans will, we will spiritualized it, or in some way rationalize it away. But we would never go to those lengths to prove that it states an obvious historical truth about Gods character. 

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

What's truely amazing to me Wadif I.M. Rong is that you believe your posts are generated by your free will.

:eek: caught red handed!!   You got me figured out :thumbsup:  so you know you brightened my day, and made me laugh.

I guess that you better pay close attention to everything I write, since God is forcing me to write it against my will. Wait a minute. I don't have a will. In fact, I can't even conceive of free will because I am made in the image of God and it is outside His scope of reality or possibility.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Whadif:


A rational being would repent and believe.   For a really bad case, there may be a period of purifying fire that cleanses them.  After a time of that surely they would repent and believe? 

Is satan a rational being?

James 2:19 "You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble.

Luke 16:31. " if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead"

The Bible is full of stories of rational beings who stood face to face with overwhelming proof and power of consequence based on their choosing. They Chose death, even when they said they were going to choose life.

[Seth]

That's where the sovereignty of God comes in. Pharaoh was hardened, so his rationality wasn't part of the equation. He could have been perfectly rational it wouldn't matter. He was a vessel in the potter's hands.God has concluded all in disobedience that he may have mercy on all.  :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation.  Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation.  Poetic Justice.

As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended.  I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses.  The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people.  His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment.  Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

That's where the sovereignty of God comes in. Pharaoh was hardened, so his rationality wasn't part of the equation. He could have been perfectly rational it wouldn't matter. He was a vessel in the potter's hands.God has concluded all in disobedience that he may have mercy on all.  :2c:

I am working through the stuff you sent me Seth. I told my parents about it because it is just excellent and the kind if work I need.

I still have books unread and links unvisited. I am trying to get to them all and will eventually. I might have to quit my job to get it done though.

The Bible is very clear here in the case of pharaohs heart being hardened by God. I wish the same clarity existed in every secret working of God. I wish it was as clear about UR in general.

You all obviously have a strong case or I would have been gone long ago.

[HungerForTruth]

:iagree:   In other words:  He is God.  We are not.    :declare:

I was going to agree with you 100%, until I saw who made the post.

So instead I say:

He is God. We are not. Therefore we are more powerful because God cannot seem to escape our conception of him; put upon Him by an act of our will. And since our conception of him does not include free will, he never has allowed it and never can.  He is not strong enough to do that, because for Him to do it means we have to stretch our concept of God.
And we don't want to do that unless it would fit our agenda to do it. We would never do it with an issue that might challenge our agenda.

So in a Bible story where Gods will is clearly influenced by mans will, we will spiritualized it, or in some way rationalize it away. But we would never go to those lengths to prove that it states an obvious historical truth about Gods character.

:dontknow:  :dontknow:  :dunno2:  :dunno2:

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Hunger, I. Never saw anyone that could say more with a couple emoticons than most of us can say with 1,000 words

[eaglesway]

God is beyond our conceptions, and is able to do anything He desires. His ways are not limited by our perceptions. Our perceptions are limited by our own hearts and minds, and the veils within us. If we seek Him with dedication and sincerity he reveals His ways to us.

His expanse in relation to us is much greater than ours in relation to Him, and He sees the end from the beginning. We cannot see one day ahead of ourelves and that which is past is a mystery to most from which lessons arise, but slowly, because we are slow to understand what the hand of God is working in and through us. It will burst upon us with great clarity when we are thrust out of this clay into His immortal presence and the illumination that will flood our hearts and minds will be beautiful and totally freeing, to say the least. :o)

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation.  Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation.  Poetic Justice.

As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended.  I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses.  The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people.  His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment.  Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?

Poetic justice indeed.

The reason I link it to his theology is based on my own personal response in trying to embrace forced regeneration or predestination. My inclination toward evil behavior increases because I am no longer responsible for it. Nor does it have an effect one way or the other on my eternal destiny. If God steps in and stops it, then it was not pre destined. If he does not stop me from an immoral act like murder, well, it was predestined. And I, like Calvin, need have no remorse over being Gods tool.

So watch what you say to me.  :eek:     :LH:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Laz....I was just on that section today. It's "odd" to me that 3000 were killed that day, and later when the installment of the spiritual fulfillment of Pentecost came, 3000 were saved that day. It's one of those "God things" you know holds a secret, but eludes you until He opens your eyes to see it.  :Chinscratch:

I've been meditating on him striking the Rock twice. It's obvious to me that it was deliberate on his part, unless he had dementia, and I don't think that was the case.  :winkgrin: Blessings...

[eaglesway]

Could be he was jus really angry :)

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation.  Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation.  Poetic Justice.

As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended.  I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses.  The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people.  His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment.  Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?

Poetic justice indeed.

The reason I link it to his theology is based on my own personal response in trying to embrace forced regeneration or predestination. My inclination toward evil behavior increases because I am no longer responsible for it. Nor does it have an effect one way or the other on my eternal destiny. If God steps in and stops it, then it was not pre destined. If he does not stop me from an immoral act like murder, well, it was predestined. And I, like Calvin, need have no remorse over being Gods tool.

So watch what you say to me.  :eek:     :LH:

This thought has come to me a few times so am going to throw it out there.

I actually think that for certain people the UR doctrines can come off as very appealing to the flesh. Probably more appealing to the flesh than any Christian doctrine I have heard of. I could go into more detail, but it might be counter productive. If you don't get it, say so.

This thought first hit me reading the story of the woman on the bus who lifts her veil to see the knarled faces twisted by sin. And in a fit of anguish Over the plight of man, God at long last reveals UR to her.

She was ready for it now. Loved and served God for ages, but it is not revealed to her till now.

Maybe you are trying to share a revelation reserved for a select few, with the masses.

Maybe God won't reveal it to me because he knows my response to it will be too carnal?

Just throwing it out there also in light of things Rob Bell has reportedly "fallen into". 

Did he take the sacred pearls of the Holy of Holys and throw them before swine?

[bushy]

This thought first hit me reading the story of the woman on the bus who lifts her veil to see the knarled faces twisted by sin. And in a fit of anguish Over the plight of man, God at long last reveals UR to her.

She was ready for it now. Loved and served God for ages, but it is not revealed to her till now.

Maybe you are trying to share a revelation reserved for a select few, with the masses.

Maybe God won't reveal it to me because he knows my response to it will be too carnal?

Just throwing it out there also in light of things Rob Bell has reportedly "fallen into". 

Did he take the sacred pearls of the Holy of Holys and throw them before swine?

I've wondered about this too because of my personal experience. When I first came to see the truth of all eventually saved it was in a flash. I sat in awe for a couple minutes and one of the first thoughts I had was " Why did you show this to me, a nobody." So I don't know why some see it and some can't and don't want to. But sooner or later I think it will become clear that we have a message that changes the 'gospel' from bad news for most people to good news for everybody.

[Aerex]

Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation.  Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation.  Poetic Justice.

As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended.  I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses.  The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people.  His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment.  Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?

Poetic justice indeed.

The reason I link it to his theology is based on my own personal response in trying to embrace forced regeneration or predestination. My inclination toward evil behavior increases because I am no longer responsible for it. Nor does it have an effect one way or the other on my eternal destiny. If God steps in and stops it, then it was not pre destined. If he does not stop me from an immoral act like murder, well, it was predestined. And I, like Calvin, need have no remorse over being Gods tool.

So watch what you say to me.  :eek:     :LH:

Hey Wadif I will respond to your other comments about how God does not respect the choices of men in a pm if you like. I apologize if I went too far in my statements.

You mention that believing in UR is enticing to flesh but I would challenge you with this question. Would you sin less if you believe in some eternal place if judgment? Do you do good just so you can get to heaven or do you do good because you really love God and your fellowman.?