I have so many questions, and some of them might be disruptive. I am trying to get the answers by reading the articles and discussions posted here, but sometimes I am not finding complete answers, or am maybe a little, well maybe a lot surprised at leaps that are made in reasoning.
I don't want to be disruptive if this is a peaceful quite neighborhood where everybody is happily at "100% sure" as one article stated. I can continue to work things out on my own. Just wondering what the climate is here.
Here is an ice breaker. If you wish I would go away, just ignore this post.
Why "Tentmaker"? What does it imply? I have always heard it used in reference to Paul making his own wage, so as not to burden those he was ministering to. Then applied, in principle to modern missionaries. (With potential benefit of legal reasons for being in a foreign country).
Well Wad if ,
I do believe without Gods help and the Holy Spirit witness , there is not a one who would have a clue , Gods grace and glory all His own !! :HeartThrob:
There is none righteous no not one there none that understands no one seeks after God ....
Romans 3 There is No One Righteous
...10as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."...
Psalm 53:2
God looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
I have been a "Calvinist" of one form or another for over 30 years and just recently was enlightened to the reality of Universal Reconciliation. I must say my heart has been changed as a result. I truly feel I am not following a man or a system of doctrine now, I am now following Jesus.
Having said that: I am not against systematic theology per say, but often men use human intellect to frame elaborate doctrines that misrepresent God, yet mirror what they would be like if they were God. My intent is NOT to be divisive, but the God John Calvin promoted in his work "Institutes of the Christian Religion" is a severe harsh God that doles out severe punishment for the non-elect by His chosing. Yes I have read the entire thing two volume set that resides in my library.
No wonder John Calvin's God was so severe, look at what John Calvin was capable of:
Paste:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Calvins Reign of Terror, The Many Faces of Calvinism
Geneva was a church-city-state of 15,000 people, and the church constitution now recognized "pastors, doctors, elders and deacons," but the supreme power was given to the magistrate, John Calvin. In November 1552, the Council declared Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion to be a "holy doctrine which no man might speak against." Thus the State issued dogmatic decrees, the force of which had been anticipated earlier, as when Jacques Gruet, a known opponent of Calvin, was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547, for placing a letter in Calvin's pulpit calling him a hypocrite. Gruet's book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch. Gruet's death was more highly criticized by far than the banishment of Castellio or the penalties inflicted on Bolsec -- moderate men opposed to extreme views in discipline and doctrine, who fell under suspicion as reactionary. Calvin did not shrink from his self-appointed task. Within five years fifty-eight sentences of death and seventy-six of exile, besides numerous committals of the most eminent citizens to prison, took place in Geneva. The iron yoke could not be shaken off. In 1555, under Ami Perrin, a revolt was attempted. No blood was shed, but Perrin lost the day, and Calvin's theocracy triumphed. John Calvin had secured his grip on Geneva by defeating the very man who had invited him there, Ami Perrin, commissioner of Geneva.
Calvin forced the citizens of Geneva to attend church services under a heavy threat of punishment. Since Calvinism falsely teaches that God forces the elect to believe, it is no wonder that Calvin thought he could also force the citizens of Geneva to all become the elect. Not becoming one of the elect was punishable by death or expulsion from Geneva. Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches.
Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, was born in Villanova in 1511. He was credited with the discovery of the pulmonary circulation of the blood from the right chamber of the heart through the lungs and back to the left chamber of the heart. He was Calvin's longtime friend in their earlier resistance against the Roman Catholic Church. Servetus, while living in Vienne (historic city in southeastern France), angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's writings, Institutes, with critical comments in the margins. Servetus was arrested by the Roman Catholic Authorities on April 4 but escaped on April 7, 1553. He traveled to Geneva where he attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on August 13. Calvin promptly had Servetus arrested and charged with heresy for his disagreement with Calvin's theology. The thirty-eight official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus was correct in challenging Calvin's false teaching about infant baptism for salvation, but he was heretical in his rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method. Other Protestant churches throughout Switzerland advised Calvin that Servetus be condemned but not executed. Calvin ignored their pleas and Servetus was burned at the stake on October 27, 1553. John Calvin insisted that his men use green wood for the fire because it burned slower. Servetus was screaming as he was literally baked alive from the feet upward and suffered the heat of the flames for 30 minutes before finally succumbing to one of the most painful and brutal death methods possible. Servetus had written a theology book, a copy of which Calvin had strapped to the chest of Servetus. The flames from the burning book rose against Servetus' face as he screamed in agony.
John Calvin celebrated and bragged of his killing of Servetus. Many theological and state leaders criticized Calvin for the unwarranted killing of Servetus, but it fell on deaf ears as Calvin advised others to do the same. Calvin wrote much in following years in a continual attempt to justify his burning of Servetus. Some people claim Calvin favored beheading, but this does not fit charges of heresy for which the punishment, as written by Calvin earlier, was to be burning at the stake. Calvin had made a vow years earlier that Servetus would never leave Geneva alive if he were ever captured, and Calvin held true to his pledge. Truly John Calvin is burning in Hell for his heresy, blasphemy of God and murder of many.
Another victim of Calvin's fiery zeal was Gentile of an Italian sect in Geneva, which also numbered among its adherents Alciati and Gribaldo. More or less Unitarian in their views, they were required to sign a confession drawn up by Calvin in 1558. Gentile signed it reluctantly, but in the upshot he was condemned and imprisoned as a perjurer. He escaped only to be incarcerated twice at Berne where, in 1566, he was beheaded. Calvin also had thirty-four (34) women burned at the stake after accusing them of causing a plague that had swept through Geneva in 1545. John Calvin's actions were very paganistic like his mentor, Saint Augustine. Jesus and all of the Apostles would have abhorred and condemned these blatant mass murders.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
cut and pasted from: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2643336/posts
:cloud9: @ Rong.....You'd have to ask Gary what he had in mind when he named his site. Maybe Jabcat knows, I don't. This board seeks to be peaceful and respectful of wherever someone is in their journey. We've all come from different religious backgrounds, or some like myself, from no background at all.
What we all seem to have in common is a deep hunger for the Truth of God's Word and His heart in the matter and the belief in the Son of God, and I would say most of us don't care what chips have to fall along the way, in the pursuit of it. So question away, most people here are not easily offended.
@ Hunger.....amazing isn't it? I've never said anything but I always wonder when I see someone describe themselves as a Calvinist, it they have any idea of ALL that entails. He became just like the ones he hated. Blessings...
The Bible refers to the body as a tent. I've often wondered if Paul's profession as a tent maker reflected his office as an Apostle building up the new man, corporately and individually, and sending it into the world. I'm sure Gary had other ideas about why he named his ministry tentmaker though.
oh my Hunger....there is a darkness so dark..it can not be looked upon. an evil so evil..it far surpasses anything a man of
flesh and blood would ever entertain in his heart...darker than any earthly darkness....when it enters in..this abomination that
causes desolation...it causes God to be far off from His temple. It oftentimes likes to masquerade as an angel of light...but if the
light that be in ye..be darkness..how great is that darkness!
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2015, 05:42:33 PM
The Bible refers to the body as a tent. I've often wondered if Paul's profession as a tent maker reflected his office as an Apostle building up the new man, corporately and individually, and sending it into the world. I'm sure Gary had other ideas about why he named his ministry tentmaker though.
Well the tent thing is close to my heart. I raised my two kids while living in the Northwoods by a small lake, in a "GP small" 6 man arctic army tent. It was wonderful, and my kids are so proud of their time there. (Aprox 7 years, over a span of 9). People in here have said "welcome to the tent!" And my heart pounds. That is what we called our home for all those years. "The Tent".
A lot of my heros lived in tents for parts of their lives: Abraham, Moses, God; to name a few. And as mentioned, Paul made them, and would I ever love to have one of those made by Paul!!! A lot of remarkable things happened within the walls and doorways of tents. I mean, things of Biblical proportion. :)
I wonder if Gary had the original tabernacle tent in mind, or maybe the tabernacle of our bodies, as Seth mentioned. Any way, anything to do with a well made tent is OK by me.
:cloud9: Wow....my hat's off to you, I couldn't do it. But I love the whole tent thing too. The Tabernacle of Moses is a special thing for me as He has taught me so much thru it's construction and dimensions and furniture. There is a sticky post by that name on here, if you have time to read it, it's a good read. Blessings...
Why is it that when women get close to the heart of God, it just seems like they can get closer than any man I ever knew. Whenever these women like Rosered and Sheila write something, I feel like I am getting a glimpse of the face of God. It is almost like I have to read it out of the corner of my eye, or maybe put a veil over it and read through that.
It is a great blessing to be able to read your hearts. (As long as I don't go comparing them to my own).
Thank you Cardinal, you posted as I was posting the above. I will check out that thread. And thank you also for inviting my questions in your previous post.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 11, 2015, 09:30:46 AM
I have so many questions, and some of them might be disruptive. I am trying to get the answers by reading the articles and discussions posted here, but sometimes I am not finding complete answers, or am maybe a little, well maybe a lot surprised at leaps that are made in reasoning.
I don't want to be disruptive if this is a peaceful quite neighborhood where everybody is happily at "100% sure" as one article stated. I can continue to work things out on my own. Just wondering what the climate is here.
Here is an ice breaker. If you wish I would go away, just ignore this post.
Why "Tentmaker"? What does it imply? I have always heard it used in reference to Paul making his own wage, so as not to burden those he was ministering to. Then applied, in principle to modern missionaries. (With potential benefit of legal reasons for being in a foreign country).
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Is there more faith required to believes 100%.
Or is more faith required to believe 80%.
The more room for Faith is the more room for God.
"Hunger for Truth",
Wow sir, it is like you read my original post and God gave you a vision of my tangled mind, and said "here, let's just blast past all the pleasantries and get right to the heart of the matter." I am serious, it is almost spooky that you would post as you did. And I honestly can't find what in my post triggered your response.
These theological issues you bring forth are the tip of the iceberg that I am trying to map out with some kind of primative Stone Age sonar that just is not getting me safely around this thing. And my fear is that while I am trying to avoid ship wrecking against the submerged mountain of ice, the Truth is hidden in a capsule frozen somewhere in the middle of the monstrosity.
I will respond more fully as time allows between jobs. But I will say that UR seems to me the logical, and maybe even the only, peaceful resting place for a kind hearted, people loving adherent to the five pointed "TULIP" of Calvinism.
Dajomaco, is your real name "Confucius"????!!??
If I ever say something that profound, just please kill me before I open my mouth again. (I'd like to be remembered that way).
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 11, 2015, 10:40:50 PM
Thank you Cardinal, you posted as I was posting the above. I will check out that thread. And thank you also for inviting my questions in your previous post.
:cloud9: Great....here's the link....http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/
Quote from: Cardinal on August 12, 2015, 12:57:49 AM
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 11, 2015, 10:40:50 PM
Thank you Cardinal, you posted as I was posting the above. I will check out that thread. And thank you also for inviting my questions in your previous post.
:cloud9: Great....here's the link....http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/
[/quote
Very informative link. Thank you Card
:thumbsup:
Thank you for the link Cardinal. I went looking on my own and the closest thing I found was a thread on herbal medicine that people smoke. The smoke part of that health equation seems a little counter-productive. Kind of like when I discovered tooth paste contains sugar. Anyway, your link will save me some time. Thanks.
So "Hunger for Truth" presented one peice of the puzzle. Here is another preface to some questions I hope to ask when I have time: A couple years before Martin Luther died, his theology had progressed to the point where he could write two widely celebrated peices. "On the Jews and their lies" and "on the holy name and lineage of Christ"
Luther's writings became as scripture to many Germans. These two peices were often proudly quoted in anti Jewish liturature or speech. I wrote down some quotes from those papers, and comments by Hall V Worthington.
Martin Luther had been kind to the Jews as a younger and less enlightened man.
Now he wrote that they were no longer the chosen people but the devils people. "Base whoring people, that is no people of God. And their boast of their lineage, circumcision and law must be accounted as filth." [...full of the] "Devils feces...which they wallow in like swine"
Describing the synagogue: a "defiled bride, yes an incourageible whore and evil slut."
Worthington write of Luther: "he advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayer books, forbidding Rabbis from preaching, seizing Jew's property and money, smashin up their homes, and ensuring that these 'poisonous envenomed worms' be forced into labor or expelled 'for all time'
Luther wrote: "we are at fault in not slaying them."
I hate to just leave it at that point. I may have to do this in small bits as I work long hours except on Saturday. But this is all about theology. I don't want to make too broad a statement, but what individuals and society's think and do are in a large part a result of what they beleive about God. The ancient "nature vs. nurture" discussion applies. Hungry said "no wonder john Calvin's God was so severe. Look at what John Calvin was capable of". Yet the article implied the opposite, that Augustine's theology paved the way for Calvins behaviors. He said "Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches."
Yes we each have genetic pre-disposition that makes us look for a fitting theology for our personality. Yet we yield ourselves to the chosen theology and become shaped by it. The old Calvin and the old Luther had changed. I feel the theology changed them, or at least encouraged the change.
The little choir boy in Germany named Adolph had a personality that responded to Luthers theology in shocking ways. The theology paved the way and prepaired the society for it.
Eventually, I want to get to a concept that Calvin's theology had in common with Luther's theology, and if I am not mistaken, also with UR theology, although not with some other systems of Christian theology.
In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
Hi Wadif ! :Peace2:
I believe you might be focusing on ''faith '' this is what all people in general believe in ''concepts '' and constructs of ideas and the rest by faith or
not knowing ,in the dark about but expecting it to be truth LIGHT , but call it worship of God
Many it seems have created with their useless imaginations , their own mini gods in their own minds and them ''ideas '' are their only power and what they serve and try to influence others to believe also
ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES US TRUTH /LIGHT/WORD , THOUGH JESUS CHRIST
The True and Living God will turn them over to strong delusion that they do believe in error , misgivings , just like everyone is doomed to everlasting hell but a very few .. that general Babylonian concept many including my self believed at first , always in fear of my life and UNWORTHINESS and failures and that was the main focus because it was taught , like the blind leading the blind into the pit of despair.. and inability to have a real and budding relationship with God whom is Spirit and truth , this idea just inforced Jesus warnings of they will not enter themselves nor allow anyone else to either enter GODS KINGDOM .
Enter the gates of the Holy City of God , now your flesh and blood cannot and will never enter that holy place , but they focus on your flesh which is the body of death and the law of Moses is the ministration of death , and made to put that old man of sin to death , this is a GOOD THING !! really good , because with that old man of sin out of the way , than, can you place your focus ON JESUS CHRIST , Not that prideful old man of sin who wants to be like God
and actually think He not only saves himself but others too , wow how arrogant is that ? the putrid rotting of self righteousness and body of death and the fire of his torment is smoke in Gods nostrils all the day long Isaiah 65 Judgments and Promises
...4
Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots. 5"Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day. 6"Behold, it is written before Me, I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will even repay into their bosom,... To many places IN THE WORD telling us that God is NOT going to do such a thing as burn everyone in hell forever and ever and Him sending His Son Jesus Christ IS THE VERY PROOF !! all are in correction by our own believing , Jesus come to send fire on the earth [judgment ] , now many are burning by their own judging and being judged by the Fiery LAW do unto others as you would do unto you , as you judge so shall you be judged by your own words and own merciless attitude! PRAY FOR YOUR ENEMIES JESUS SAID ! be merciful and obtain mercy Matt 5
with them tongues of fire that do set the course of hell / Gehenna James 3 ...5So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6
And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. 7For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race....
Every knee will bow and every Tongue confess Jesus , I have no doubts about it at all .. two bodies and two minded focuses ,,,, one is the body of death and this is all kept as BELOW and earthly sensual and devilish, carnal in nature and temporary and the other is the body of Life and rises up as endless , for lack of a better word , but it was ALWAYS SPIRITUAL and always ABOVE and glorious and pure and HOLY and perfect and LOVE a hard word to pin down and describe on human terms , because no human has a clue , but kept in the dark about the things of God , This was helpful for me when reading as to why Jesus done all them great works and said ''tell no man '' because man would ''hinder the cause of Jesus Christ ''
they would scatter and separate and isolate one another , and JESUS CHRIST IS ALL ABOUT THE GATHERING INTO ONE TRUE AND LIVING GOD THE FATHER BY SPIRIT & TRUTH ONLY and no flesh and blood would have any part of that , Only His own flesh and blood poured out as the perfect offering for all sin for all time , that was always pure and holy and incorruptible , because the FATHER DONE THIS for mankind , not mankind , but Jesus Christ only and those in Christ giving their lives [the natural one for Life eternal in GOD and have this in the here and now ...
I do Believe Jesus Christ is the Lord and Master of the dead and living and Do believe His perfect WORK WILL accomplish every jot and detail , every speck promised by both laws working simultaneously , together at the same time , death to one[ man of sin ] and life to the other [ new man in Christ]
the Fiery Law and the Royal Law that only the new man in Christ can keep because it is Holy
When Jesus does hand all things , meaning every speck , right down to the miniscule detail over to GOD THE FATHER , SO HE MAY BE ALL IN ALL
It will be exactly as it has been written , and Spoken and worked out to the very end
2Thess 2 The Man of Sin
...10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive
the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12
in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth,
but took pleasure in wickedness. You said ,
QuoteIn the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
Speaking evil slandering against Gods goodness and character , saying He is some mean and vengeful God who loves to send people to everlasting torment because He can
Is like saying , Oh my! that wicked cat eats mice , I am glad I am not a cat , I am just a frog who eats flies
I am blessed of God and that cat is sooo doomed by the same God whom created all things for His glory !!
or the excuse they sent themselves to Hell fire and torment because they cannot do good .......... when it comes to sin and being carnal in nature , you can always point to sin in every last human being God ever created , secret sins , sins of pride and sins of self serving and sins of the earthly and sensual kind that are out to please their flesh and satisfy urges and needs , it never stops sinning , it is doomed to death and rot and decay and corruption
It was never meant to be glorified eternally , its a temporary thing , like a corn husk , its purpose was to hold the corn in place till harvest , but to be discarded and done did its thing ,,, like dung in the soil served its purpose and used up to make something He considers perfect for His , Gods glory , fruit of Gods goodness and perfectness and completeness
sinning is error and missing out of the Spiritual purpose of Gods plan in the here and now
Everyone will know in the end what they missed out in and on to their own shame and some whom died in sin , ignorance
When Jesus told them ,whom said they SEE , HE said because you SAY you see , your sins remains and they would die in there sins
the weird thing to me was the day / Light of knowing you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and chose the evil over the good is the day you die in your sins from the beginning when God made the WORD KNOWN , not to eat of it in the first place , it is the fiery law of judgment
the very tongue that judges us is our own words that come from thoughts that come into play /acting on them , setting your world on fire in judgment and suffering , those whom you love will also suffer with you , even Jesus suffers because of your sins , because HE DOES LOVE YOU THAT MUCH and hopes you will learn to choose the good and avoid the evil , when learning to discern what is good and what is evil , and the Holy one in Christ will repent of the old man always and choose the good and do what is right in Gods sight , because Jesus Christ is with you doing the good , the old man of sin could not do on his own , till he perishes and is done away with in Christ , as his last day ...
last day Christ John 6:40 ESV
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone
who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
:cloud9: @ Wadif.......Yes, I was also aware of Luther's transgressions. Pride goeth before a fall. Luther lifted himself up thinking he was better than his fellow man, and so fell into his error. Jesus was "rough" on the Jewish leaders because they had been trusted with the first oracles of God (you're held accountable for what you know) above all other nations of men, but some men turn that correction He brought to them into a never-ending witch hunt, ignoring what He said about boasting yourself against the tree you were grafted onto.
In all things, there is balance and the HS has to be the one doing the judging. The thing about the HS doing it, it is different from how men do it. He reveals to heal, men reveal to revile. One lifts up even while tearing down, the other only tears down. One is a two-edged sword able to both cut and heal at the same time, the other only wounds unto death.
I can't speak for anyone else, but the difference UR made in me, is that it helped me to focus more on the Christ in people as opposed to their flesh only. It's still a struggle when severe offenses come, and likely will be as long as I'm in this flesh body because that's it's nature, but the battle has definitely lessened.
And this may sound sacrilegious to some, but when your focus changes from trying to get everyone "saved" to resting in the knowledge that He will have all men saved, you can focus on loving them where they are at, which is what draws all men to Him anyway, because love is what was nailed to the cross. My :2c: Blessings....
I had recently told someone that I don't live my life differently, now that I believe in UR. Which, is basically true.
But, one of the main ways I am different for believing in UR, includes a deep joyfulness that God sees all of us through, and doesn't give up on us, until we return to Him. Once I heard of UR, I felt, YES, that is the God I know. I am sure He never gave up on me, though many times this world did.
Even among my Christian friends, I am often criticized for not letting go of people, when they hurt me. But, my idea of unconditional love, includes still to love them, and not to stop reaching out to them or being available to them.
We will all let each other down, sooner or later, but my idea of love says that it stands by and hopes; it continues to love. This is the aspect that drew me to UR the most, from the beginning. I believe it is God who taught me not to toss people aside, but to continue to nurture the relationship, even when the going gets rough.
People say, but you will keep getting hurt, and it will ruin your own sense of self, but, I find, if we give it all to God, and follow His lead, and not people's, that He gives us the strength and yes, even the joy, to love through the storms. If we don't take their rejection or anger personally, but rather allow God to be a filter for our feelings, we can do great things. In our fallen world, there are times, I realize, that relationships must end or change radically, but even then, we can still do so in a loving way, and not in a cruel or callous way.
I believe the present template of Hell, gives people the green light to limit love too much, both God's and their own.
Love never fails.
:HeartThrob:
Wadif:
My personal sin has not grown or subsided, HOWEVER - - the UR theology has made me much more tolerant and loving towards others and not so stinking judgmental. I truly feel the freedom I have learned about but never experienced before committing to embracing UR. The pressure is off.
What prompted my response was you seemed to be searching for truth and I wanted to share what I discovered in my journey.
I want to follow the Lord, not a systematic theological system created by men. Them critters (systematic theological systems) divide. Is Christ divided? Uh no. Do dogmatic doctrines divide? Uh yes.
Galatians 5:19-21English Standard Version (ESV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
....a lot of doctrines..and low base thoughts of carnal men[My thoughts are higher then yours] can be likened unto the abominable
and disgusting 'images' on the walls of the chamber of 'imagery" Basically..man to be in the image of God..not likening God unto
the corrupted image of the man of sin. These things..said and done and representative of God..by fallen man...are unworthy of Him.
I heard this saying once.....man before the fall...this one..God created in His image. Man after the fall..created a god in his image.
the restoration and salvation of man..is the face to face image of God in man.
Peter's vision...the sheet let down from heaven/man's descent into ignorance and the corrupted carnal images......Rise Peter...
kill and eat.........the death of the old carnal ignorance and base in man...the lifting back up of the Christ image/return unto the
Father.
that which is corrupt and temporal in man...must pass away
In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.
I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love
Quote from: dajomaco on August 12, 2015, 08:02:24 PM
In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.
I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love
:dsunny:
Quote from: dajomaco on August 12, 2015, 08:02:24 PM
In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.
I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love
:iagree: This is an excellent post - I couldn't agree more. The more we behold HIM the more we become like Him. Sin stops not from a fleshly resistance of sin but by being occupied with another pursuit: HIM. :cloud9:
Quote from: dajomaco on August 12, 2015, 08:02:24 PM
In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.
I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love
Yes :thumbsup:
I believe the following scriptures (and many others) convey the heart felt thinking of UR more than any other doctrine.Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Awesome Daj !!
Quote from: Dandelion on August 12, 2015, 03:08:26 PM
I had recently told someone that I don't live my life differently, now that I believe in UR. Which, is basically true.
But, one of the main ways I am different for believing in UR, includes a deep joyfulness that God sees all of us through, and doesn't give up on us, until we return to Him. Once I heard of UR, I felt, YES, that is the God I know. I am sure He never gave up on me, though many times this world did.
Even among my Christian friends, I am often criticized for not letting go of people, when they hurt me. But, my idea of unconditional love, includes still to love them, and not to stop reaching out to them or being available to them.
We will all let each other down, sooner or later, but my idea of love says that it stands by and hopes; it continues to love. This is the aspect that drew me to UR the most, from the beginning. I believe it is God who taught me not to toss people aside, but to continue to nurture the relationship, even when the going gets rough.
People say, but you will keep getting hurt, and it will ruin your own sense of self, but, I find, if we give it all to God, and follow His lead, and not people's, that He gives us the strength and yes, even the joy, to love through the storms. If we don't take their rejection or anger personally, but rather allow God to be a filter for our feelings, we can do great things. In our fallen world, there are times, I realize, that relationships must end or change radically, but even then, we can still do so in a loving way, and not in a cruel or callous way.
I believe the present template of Hell, gives people the green light to limit love too much, both God's and their own.
Love never fails.
:HeartThrob:
Hi Dandelion,
I should take lessons from you. I am experiencing this very thing in my life and everyone tells me the same thing as what you have said some have said to you. I believe God is giving me this to learn from even though it is hard sometimes. I agree with you that love should be the main focus. Just let God handle it all, it is all in his hands anyway. I say, "Lord what is it that you want me to learn fronm this experience". I am sure there is a lessen in it all.
CHB
Thank you so much for the personal experiences of how UR has effected your lives and every day thinking and acting and interacting. The more you can tell me about that, the better. Maybe there is already a thread like that you can recommend to me.
I wish I could get to my pholosophical questions, but need to wait till I can sit quietly and flesh them out.
But they won't even matter if I can't answer all my biblical questions. There are a mountain of scriptures that I will have to re-visit. Gary listed a whole pile of translations that eliminate "Hell". I need to get one of them. Is there a certain one you all feel is most accurate? Or do a need a parallel literal word for word translation, or what do I need? I have started learning Hebrew. It is a source of deep joy.
Thank you.
remembered this old thread wadif...may be interesting/helpful; if not, ignore :)
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/eternal-'hell'-is-gone-but-god's-fire-burns-bright/msg106743/#msg106743
Quote from: dajomaco on August 12, 2015, 08:02:24 PM
In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.
I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love
Dajomaco, I think you have a very sharp mind, and it is an honor to be among minds like yours and other very sharp thinkers who seem to be the norm in this place, rather than the exception.
Just so you know where I am coming from, this verse pretty much Sums up what I am learning about love.
1 John 5:2,3 "by this we know that we love the children of God, that we keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And His comandments are not burdensome."
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2015, 03:12:41 AM
remembered this old thread wadif...may be interesting/helpful; if not, ignore :)
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/eternal-'hell'-is-gone-but-god's-fire-burns-bright/msg106743/#msg106743
I got to breeze through the first few posts. Perfect!! Exactly what I hoped for.
Thank you.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 13, 2015, 03:48:25 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2015, 03:12:41 AM
remembered this old thread wadif...may be interesting/helpful; if not, ignore :)
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/eternal-'hell'-is-gone-but-god's-fire-burns-bright/msg106743/#msg106743
I got to breeze through the first few posts. Perfect!! Exactly what I hoped for.
Thank you.
:thumbsup:
I think many, myself included, have not given enough "credit" to God's Spirit doing God's works in us as believers, not us (whether ET or UR) doing them ourselves through our own efforts or ability to "stay out of trouble" with God. No matter what, we need to look to and trust in Him. ET, UR, ED, whatever - we can only please God through faith, which is His gift to the believer.
Rm. 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Phil. 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ [looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2] and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 11, 2015, 10:25:53 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2015, 05:42:33 PM
The Bible refers to the body as a tent. I've often wondered if Paul's profession as a tent maker reflected his office as an Apostle building up the new man, corporately and individually, and sending it into the world. I'm sure Gary had other ideas about why he named his ministry tentmaker though.
Well the tent thing is close to my heart. I raised my two kids while living in the Northwoods by a small lake, in a "GP small" 6 man arctic army tent. It was wonderful, and my kids are so proud of their time there. (Aprox 7 years, over a span of 9). People in here have said "welcome to the tent!" And my heart pounds. That is what we called our home for all those years. "The Tent".
A lot of my heros lived in tents for parts of their lives: Abraham, Moses, God; to name a few. And as mentioned, Paul made them, and would I ever love to have one of those made by Paul!!! A lot of remarkable things happened within the walls and doorways of tents. I mean, things of Biblical proportion. :)
I wonder if Gary had the original tabernacle tent in mind, or maybe the tabernacle of our bodies, as Seth mentioned. Any way, anything to do with a well made tent is OK by me.
I've aways wanted to live in a tent.. or teepee.. or even a hut! So basic and close to nature and not of this worldly system. But alas my husband was not going to go for that.. but when the Lord answered prayer for a house for us to buy, it was a humble and inexpensive one which is shaped a bit like a tent..
But most of all, I love how God's Great Plan of Salvation ends with "tent"
Revelation 21:3 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,
Revelation 21:3 - King James Version (KJV)
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
:dsunny: :cloud9:
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 12, 2015, 09:02:08 AM
Thank you for the link Cardinal. I went looking on my own and the closest thing I found was a thread on herbal medicine that people smoke. The smoke part of that health equation seems a little counter-productive. Kind of like when I discovered tooth paste contains sugar. Anyway, your link will save me some time. Thanks.
So "Hunger for Truth" presented one peice of the puzzle. Here is another preface to some questions I hope to ask when I have time: A couple years before Martin Luther died, his theology had progressed to the point where he could write two widely celebrated peices. "On the Jews and their lies" and "on the holy name and lineage of Christ"
Luther's writings became as scripture to many Germans. These two peices were often proudly quoted in anti Jewish liturature or speech. I wrote down some quotes from those papers, and comments by Hall V Worthington.
Martin Luther had been kind to the Jews as a younger and less enlightened man.
Now he wrote that they were no longer the chosen people but the devils people. "Base whoring people, that is no people of God. And their boast of their lineage, circumcision and law must be accounted as filth." [...full of the] "Devils feces...which they wallow in like swine"
Describing the synagogue: a "defiled bride, yes an incourageible whore and evil slut."
Worthington write of Luther: "he advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayer books, forbidding Rabbis from preaching, seizing Jew's property and money, smashin up their homes, and ensuring that these 'poisonous envenomed worms' be forced into labor or expelled 'for all time'
Luther wrote: "we are at fault in not slaying them."
It is so veRy strange to me how people who can be so on the mark with the Lord and His Word in some ways, and can still be very wrong, some terribly so as these posts about Calvin and Luther show.. It's just shocking to me.. But it serves to remind us how easily human beings are led astray.. I think of untruth like leaven and eventually, even like faith and the Word (as leaven) can leaven the whole lump! It also reminds me of some of the seven letters to the churches.. evidence of mixtures of good and then not so good! Tells me to never tire of yield, yield, yielding ones' self to the Lord and is what I think is partially meant by "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - I'm sure this translation is lacking something as we don't work out our own salvation.. That, I believe, was done on the cross - "If I be lifted up from the earth" Jesus said, "I will draw all to me" Jn 12:6(?)
:smile:
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 12, 2015, 10:04:16 AM
I hate to just leave it at that point. I may have to do this in small bits as I work long hours except on Saturday. But this is all about theology. I don't want to make too broad a statement, but what individuals and society's think and do are in a large part a result of what they beleive about God. The ancient "nature vs. nurture" discussion applies. Hungry said "no wonder john Calvin's God was so severe. Look at what John Calvin was capable of". Yet the article implied the opposite, that Augustine's theology paved the way for Calvins behaviors. He said "Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches."
Yes we each have genetic pre-disposition that makes us look for a fitting theology for our personality. Yet we yield ourselves to the chosen theology and become shaped by it. The old Calvin and the old Luther had changed. I feel the theology changed them, or at least encouraged the change.
The little choir boy in Germany named Adolph had a personality that responded to Luthers theology in shocking ways. The theology paved the way and prepaired the society for it.
Eventually, I want to get to a concept that Calvin's theology had in common with Luther's theology, and if I am not mistaken, also with UR theology, although not with some other systems of Christian theology.
In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist? Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?
My flaws are the same.. pretty much.. But I've almost always since '79 when I was saved, believed in UR.. Except for a short time I wondered about EA / eternal annihilation, based loosely on the parable of the wheat and tares.. but the logic of where that idea leads made me give that one up..
I've always been and still am, for the most part a spiritual hermit.. I'm not saying I haven't learned form others in the body, but I've never really been affiliated with a church or doctrines.. Almost all my studying has been alone, with just the Word and the Spirit (daily bread & new wine) although I do read commentary and study aids along with my studying.
'Hell' or God as imperfect has never seemed logical to me. And surely perfect can lose nothing and the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it/human history) can only be perfect.
So many awesome responses in this thread! Too many to respond to them all! But with them :iagree: :iagree: Very good thread and a real good read!!
:girlheart:
I'm going to check out the two links tomorrow..
i agree with the "human element" marie. was thinking about that earlier today. God can use cracked vessels. many/all of us have pieces God gives us, we just don't have it all yet. Just as I believe Calvin had some things right, Luther did as well (fill in the blank with many, many names). But we're still clay, battle with the flesh, and "don't win'em all". That will be remedied some day. In the meantime I think we have to sort through, take things before the Lord, use discernment, and be led by the Spirit. And then we're still still human with all that entails.
I asked Gary about the tentmaker name. He's had a tiring day working on a newsletter, but here's what he replied;
"Tentmaker has to do with the restoration of the Tabernacle of David. Paul is my favorite apostle, but the name Tentmaker centers around the Tabernacle of David versus the Mosaic Tabernacle which was going on at the same time worship was offered on Mount Zion. The old "Law versus Grace" argument goes back a long long time, even before Paul came on the scene."
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2015, 07:11:29 AM
i agree with the "human element" marie. was thinking about that earlier today. God can use cracked vessels. many/all of us have pieces God gives us, we just don't have it all yet. Just as I believe Calvin had some things right, Luther did as well (fill in the blank with many, many names). But we're still clay, battle with the flesh, and "don't win'em all". That will be remedied some day. In the meantime I think we have to sort through, take things before the Lord, use discernment, and be led by the Spirit. And then we're still still human with all that entails.
I asked Gary about the tentmaker name. He's had a tiring day working on a newsletter, but here's what he replied;
"Tentmaker has to do with the restoration of the Tabernacle of David. Paul is my favorite apostle, but the name Tentmaker centers around the Tabernacle of David versus the Mosaic Tabernacle which was going on at the same time worship was offered on Mount Zion. The old "Law versus Grace" argument goes back a long long time, even before Paul came on the scene."
:thumbsup:
:HeartThrob: I thought how merciful God truly is to shorten the days of our flesh , from Adam whom lived 93o years in flesh & blood and knowing evil and good and in Noah's day to 500 years and Moses day 120 and in Davids 70 or 80 by grace and we still have this to this DAY! and a 1000 years is as a Day to the Lord and a day is thousands years , we are as a 'hairs breath '' in his Sight ...GOD IS SO AWESOME! :dsunny:
The sure mercies of David !! I love these verses our hope in Jesus Christ ...
Acts ...33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' 34"As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.' 35"Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'...
Isaiah 55:3
Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
Jeremiah 30:9
Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
Acts 2:24
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead,
Acts 13:33
he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my son; today I have become your father.'
Treasury of Scripture
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
now.
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death ...
I will.
Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me: hear, and your soul shall live; ...
the sure.
2 Samuel 7:14-16 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, ... :banana:
2 Samuel 23:5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he has made with me an ...
Psalm 89:2-4,19-37 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: your faithfulness ... :cloud9:
Jeremiah 33:15-17,26 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness ...
Ezekiel 34:23,24 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, ...
Ezekiel 37:24,25 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall ...
Hosea 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD ...
Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, ... :icon_king:
Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and ... :icon_flower:
Praise God for sending Jesus Christ and all those found in Him !! :dsunny:
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 11, 2015, 09:30:46 AM
I have so many questions, and some of them might be disruptive. I am trying to get the answers by reading the articles and discussions posted here, but sometimes I am not finding complete answers, or am maybe a little, well maybe a lot surprised at leaps that are made in reasoning.
I don't want to be disruptive if this is a peaceful quite neighborhood where everybody is happily at "100% sure" as one article stated. I can continue to work things out on my own. Just wondering what the climate here is.
Still don't want to be disruptive. If this is, delete it. It does not bother me.
Chapters and books have been written on the following subject, but I will be as brief as I can.
The philosophical problems I am facing with UR, are practically the same as those I have with Calvinism. You have given me much to read, and hopefully my reading will cover this topic. But maybe someone on here was like me and found a way past it.
It might be characterized in the "U" of the five pointed TULIP of Calvinism: "Unconditional Election"; or more broadly, an all encompassing "predestination".
C.S. Lewis and other thinkers have explained the problem of suffering, inasmuch as related to the problem of sin, as a result of the problem of love. Love requires choice. The possibility of love requires the possibility of sin and the resultant suffering. Without free will there cannot be either love or sin, says C.S. Lewis. And I agree with his analysis.
In the article posted in this thread by "Hungry for Truth", it's author said "Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches."
And that is my problem with Calvinism and UR". Unconditional election, and ultimate redemption, or Universal Reconciliation, are all forced regeneration. There is no choice, and where there is no choice the possibility of love is removed. Everyone is there wether they want to be or not. They are forced to be there irregardless of will. Are they forced to love as well? If so it is not love, it is a computer programmed video game, with God at his joystick for all eternity. And if all of his creation is redeemed, there is Satan, a good boy now. (But not by choice). All his gang there with him; forced to be in heaven, also forced to love.
They say the opposite of love is apathy. And when I get too close to the doctrines of forced regeneration, I feel apathy creeping in. Nothing matters. Everything begins to lose meaning for me. All thoughts and sensations are merely electrical impulses along neuro-pathways that deceive me into thinking I am alive.
It's creepy to me.
I think I would rather be in the lake of fire worshiping and loving God by choice. And maybe I would be joined there by other true lovers who chose with me to share in the fellowship of His suffering, because He died to set us free to choose Him every day for all eternity. And we could love each other and care for each other's wounds. "And as hot as it is, our only real Eternal Torment is in knowing so many people are in heaven stripped of choice, and therefore stripped of the ability to truly love for all eternity. Yet we choose to worship God singing 'though You slay me, yet I will trust You. For even though I descend to the depths of Sheol, You are there'."
And when we've been there ten thousand years, we finally get brave. We put together a rescue mission. We storm the gates of Heaven, and free any captives there who choose to come. And they join us there in the lake where they learn how to choose love again. And Jesus joins us because he knows how much we love him and He is tired of all the glassy eyed blank stares he is getting from people in Heaven.
Has any one experienced these feelings and thoughts who was able to eventually set up camp at Universal Reconciliation? Wadif U.R. Rong
I believe in UR and free will. Love isn't love, without free will, I believe.
I guess it could be likened to Thomas, when he doubted that Jesus had risen, and had to see the marks of the nails, in his feet and hands.
Some of us, just need a bit more convincing. It didn't mean that Thomas believed less than the others.....it just required more evidence.
That is how I picture UR manifesting itself.
Blessed were those who believed without seeing, Jesus said, to him.
I want to be 'in that number'.
Hope that helps a bit, Wadif.
D.
Whadif:
I do not think that UR is that one is forced to believe. I see it this way wadif: If someone dies in unbelief and goes to judgment, he or she will see God and Christ for who they truly are. Doubt will be erased. They will see that God is truly loving and merciful and be drawn to that. All of their sin will be real apparent to them. No excuses - they are exposed to THE TRUTH - Jesus Christ. They will understand the price paid for the reconciliation.
A rational being would repent and believe. For a really bad case, there may be a period of purifying fire that cleanses them. After a time of that surely they would repent and believe? Who wouldn't take that free gift?
Let me see - a rightful torment and restorative punishment, or perfection and well being........meh - I want torment. Come on. That does not even make sense. :doh: Who would chose to continue in suffering? :Peace2: Where is the forced to believe in that? :dontknow:
We make choices yes but we do not have free will such that all of our choices are influenced by some outside force mainly God.
There is no where in the Bible where God has
respected someone's choices. It is just not in there.
God causes all things to happen whether good or bad. When God says He is sovereign He is not joking. If you say that isn't fair or God is forcing you then read this Scripture.
Quotefor to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;' so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness: for the Writing saith to Pharaoh--`For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;' so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden. Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?' nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus? hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour? And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call--us-- not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,
Romans 9:15-24 YLT98
http://bible.com/821/rom.9.15-24.YLT98
Quote from: Aerex on August 18, 2015, 03:11:00 PM
There is no where in the Bible where God has respected someone's choices. It is just not in there.
22The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. 23Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing -- to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
26The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the LORD, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
29Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
30Then he said, "May the LORD not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the LORD, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
32Then he said, "May the LORD not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
33When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
"Abraham's prayer for Sodom -- really for Lot and his family -- is an amazing revelation of the faith of one man in the justice of Almighty God and an incredible boldness of a mere human before the Creator of the Universe. Abraham seems to stand before God alone, yet wields significant influence over God's actions."
Quote from: Aerex on August 18, 2015, 03:11:00 PM
There is no where in the Bible where God has respected someone's choices. It is just not in there.
Daniel 10
12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
So help me out here. I am guessing predestination says Daniel was predestined to fast and mourn and pray. And the angel was NOT coming in respect of Daniels decisions to pray and fast. That is because Daniel didn't really decide to do that. He has no will in these things, he is a pre programmed computer. God had no respect for Daniels decisions in dispatching his angel. The angel was dispatched by God only because he was predestined to come. Correct? And the forces he had to fight in order to get there, were just pre destined to make it hard on the poor angel, and make Gods pre programmed video game a little more interesting.
Am I getting close?
And, in the exchange with Abraham, obviously God had pre-programmed himself to change his mind six times at the pre programmed requests of Him from Abraham.
I'm catching on, right?
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 18, 2015, 04:40:51 PM
I'm catching on, right?
(http://dl5.glitter-graphics.net/pub/568/568365ie5zttjn21.gif)
"Don't wake up a sleeping giant". Right? :LH:
well, if we recieve what we pray for...according to His will..........and it is God that causes us to will and do His pleasure.......
I think it was always God's will to deliver righteous Lot and not burn him...whose righteous soul was tormented by their filthy
conversations. That He included Abraham in on what He was about to do......and shared dialogue with him about His judgement
and actions...and that the birth of Sarah's promised child would be accomplished within a year.......was also announced at the visit.
a servant knows nothing of His master's affairs...a friend..due to intimacy is clued in..and a son..inherits[all that the Father has given me]
speaks of ongoing relationship.
there are many posts on free will on this site..and I don't want to open a can of worms. I will just say..it is my opionion..that
He is in total control over the whole creation.
I am sure you are completely bored by each new person who shows up with a all the same questions. So I guess I am probably just trying to formulate what I beleive at your expense. I don't have much opportunity for feed back. So it is appreciated.
But my opinion is that when Calvin burned his old friend Servetus at the stake with his book strapped to his chest; it was his lifelong adherence to the doctrine of predestination that brought him to the point if doing such a thing with no appearance of remorse.
You can beleive God forced him to do it. You can beleive John Calvin was not responsible for his actions. I won't beleive that until God makes me beleive it.
I know, I know, Hunger, spare the rod, spoil the dead horse.
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
He made us unique and deals with us such, He deals with us as individuals as well as a body, IN LOVE! IMO :HeartThrob:
Shalom :Peace2:
Jock.
well..imo..what he did not not understand is this. the Lamb was slaughtered before the founding of the world........all He did
foreknow[all men] He did predestinate[let us make men in our image] all men are predestined and preknown to be in the image
of Jesus Christ and Father. Pride and arrogance,makes people think more of themselves then they ought too. surely he is like abeast
in his carnal understanding...and though that man will have the kingdom restored and his mind[just like Nebuchaddnezer] he most
certainly will have had removed from him the pride arrogance boasting in his flesh. Man without understanding is like the beasts
that perish.......I call it the Peter principle...boast yourself above others..and God will elevate the other's you boasted over above you.
Hi WIMR,
Here is an article that might be of help in understanding the will of man.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#4
CHB
What's truely amazing to me Wadif I.M. Rong is that you believe your posts are generated by your free will.
:cloud9: @ Whadif.....no, we are not bored by each new person.....that's what we're here for.
I think it helps if you think of the flesh realm as a school. There are all different ages in a small town school from K-12, and we're all at different "ages" in our walk. God wants us to learn from experience, and choose Him out of love, not out of there being no other choice but Him. How is it love if you've never known anything BUT Him? So we were lowered into this vanity, NOT willingly, but He subjected the same in hope, ie. Christ in you, the hope of glory (the greater glory).
Now because He loves us before we love Him and He is all wise, He knows what situations to put us in to make us choose, day after day after day, until we get it right, because He is not willing that any should perish. That doesn't mean we don't choose, that's the whole point of the school. Conversely, that doesn't mean He doesn't stack the deck, so to speak, out of His great love for us. But in this way, we participate.
It's been found that repetition improves children's learning and retention of what they learned. Ever go thru a test here and "fail" only to meet the same basic test down the road again? It's sort of like the difference between a sheep and a goat, whose name means to go in circles. A sheep will follow it's master over the mountain. A goat will go around and around and around the mountain so many times it actually makes a deep rut before it will obey and go over the mountain.
The sooner we decide to become as sheep, the less dizzy we'll be, going around the same mountain over and over and over again. Speaking as one who has circled a few mountains in my time.... :LH:
The martyrdom of Michael Servetus testifies to the wickedness of religion, especially dead religion bearing the name of Jesus Christ, and particularly the wickedness of John Calvin.
James 3:13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
If I might add my two cents in - when it comes to free will and God's sovereignty, I believe they are both at play, simultaneously, and that it is one of those "great mysteries" we can't necessarily comprehend from where we're at.
Just my own personal belief. :2c:
:iagree: In other words: He is God. We are not. :declare:
Quote from: lomarah on August 18, 2015, 08:26:13 PM
If I might add my two cents in - when it comes to free will and God's sovereignty, I believe they are both at play, simultaneously, and that it is one of those "great mysteries" we can't necessarily comprehend from where we're at.
Just my own personal belief. :2c:
I agree 100% :gimmefive: , knowing that my agreement with you has 0 effect on what God is like.
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 18, 2015, 09:14:37 PM
:iagree: In other words: He is God. We are not. :declare:
I was going to agree with you 100%, until I saw who made the post.
So instead I say:
He is God. We are not. Therefore we are more powerful because God cannot seem to escape our conception of him; put upon Him by an act of our will. And since our conception of him does not include free will, he never has allowed it and never can. He is not strong enough to do that, because for Him to do it means we have to stretch our concept of God.
And we don't want to do that unless it would fit our agenda to do it. We would never do it with an issue that might challenge our agenda.
So in a Bible story where Gods will is clearly influenced by mans will, we will spiritualized it, or in some way rationalize it away. But we would never go to those lengths to prove that it states an obvious historical truth about Gods character.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 18, 2015, 07:00:45 PM
What's truely amazing to me Wadif I.M. Rong is that you believe your posts are generated by your free will.
:eek: caught red handed!! You got me figured out :thumbsup: so you know you brightened my day, and made me laugh.
I guess that you better pay close attention to everything I write, since God is forcing me to write it against my will. Wait a minute. I don't have a will. In fact, I can't even conceive of free will because I am made in the image of God and it is outside His scope of reality or possibility.
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 18, 2015, 02:47:50 PM
Whadif:
A rational being would repent and believe. For a really bad case, there may be a period of purifying fire that cleanses them. After a time of that surely they would repent and believe?
Is satan a rational being?
James 2:19 "You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble.
Luke 16:31. " if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead"
The Bible is full of stories of rational beings who stood face to face with overwhelming proof and power of consequence based on their choosing. They Chose death, even when they said they were going to choose life.
That's where the sovereignty of God comes in. Pharaoh was hardened, so his rationality wasn't part of the equation. He could have been perfectly rational it wouldn't matter. He was a vessel in the potter's hands.God has concluded all in disobedience that he may have mercy on all. :2c:
Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation. Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation. Poetic Justice.
As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended. I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses. The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people. His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment. Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 03:52:35 AM
That's where the sovereignty of God comes in. Pharaoh was hardened, so his rationality wasn't part of the equation. He could have been perfectly rational it wouldn't matter. He was a vessel in the potter's hands.God has concluded all in disobedience that he may have mercy on all. :2c:
I am working through the stuff you sent me Seth. I told my parents about it because it is just excellent and the kind if work I need.
I still have books unread and links unvisited. I am trying to get to them all and will eventually. I might have to quit my job to get it done though.
The Bible is very clear here in the case of pharaohs heart being hardened by God. I wish the same clarity existed in every secret working of God. I wish it was as clear about UR in general.
You all obviously have a strong case or I would have been gone long ago.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 19, 2015, 01:33:51 AM
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 18, 2015, 09:14:37 PM
:iagree: In other words: He is God. We are not. :declare:
I was going to agree with you 100%, until I saw who made the post.
So instead I say:
He is God. We are not. Therefore we are more powerful because God cannot seem to escape our conception of him; put upon Him by an act of our will. And since our conception of him does not include free will, he never has allowed it and never can. He is not strong enough to do that, because for Him to do it means we have to stretch our concept of God.
And we don't want to do that unless it would fit our agenda to do it. We would never do it with an issue that might challenge our agenda.
So in a Bible story where Gods will is clearly influenced by mans will, we will spiritualized it, or in some way rationalize it away. But we would never go to those lengths to prove that it states an obvious historical truth about Gods character.
:dontknow: :dontknow: :dunno2: :dunno2:
Hunger, I. Never saw anyone that could say more with a couple emoticons than most of us can say with 1,000 words
God is beyond our conceptions, and is able to do anything He desires. His ways are not limited by our perceptions. Our perceptions are limited by our own hearts and minds, and the veils within us. If we seek Him with dedication and sincerity he reveals His ways to us.
His expanse in relation to us is much greater than ours in relation to Him, and He sees the end from the beginning. We cannot see one day ahead of ourelves and that which is past is a mystery to most from which lessons arise, but slowly, because we are slow to understand what the hand of God is working in and through us. It will burst upon us with great clarity when we are thrust out of this clay into His immortal presence and the illumination that will flood our hearts and minds will be beautiful and totally freeing, to say the least. :o)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 19, 2015, 04:02:10 AM
Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation. Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation. Poetic Justice.
As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended. I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses. The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people. His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment. Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?
Poetic justice indeed.
The reason I link it to his theology is based on my own personal response in trying to embrace forced regeneration or predestination. My inclination toward evil behavior increases because I am no longer responsible for it. Nor does it have an effect one way or the other on my eternal destiny. If God steps in and stops it, then it was not pre destined. If he does not stop me from an immoral act like murder, well, it was predestined. And I, like Calvin, need have no remorse over being Gods tool.
So watch what you say to me. :eek: :LH:
:cloud9: @ Laz....I was just on that section today. It's "odd" to me that 3000 were killed that day, and later when the installment of the spiritual fulfillment of Pentecost came, 3000 were saved that day. It's one of those "God things" you know holds a secret, but eludes you until He opens your eyes to see it. :Chinscratch:
I've been meditating on him striking the Rock twice. It's obvious to me that it was deliberate on his part, unless he had dementia, and I don't think that was the case. :winkgrin: Blessings...
Could be he was jus really angry :)
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 19, 2015, 04:44:09 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 19, 2015, 04:02:10 AM
Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation. Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation. Poetic Justice.
As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended. I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses. The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people. His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment. Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?
Poetic justice indeed.
The reason I link it to his theology is based on my own personal response in trying to embrace forced regeneration or predestination. My inclination toward evil behavior increases because I am no longer responsible for it. Nor does it have an effect one way or the other on my eternal destiny. If God steps in and stops it, then it was not pre destined. If he does not stop me from an immoral act like murder, well, it was predestined. And I, like Calvin, need have no remorse over being Gods tool.
So watch what you say to me. :eek: :LH:
This thought has come to me a few times so am going to throw it out there.
I actually think that for certain people the UR doctrines can come off as very appealing to the flesh. Probably more appealing to the flesh than any Christian doctrine I have heard of. I could go into more detail, but it might be counter productive. If you don't get it, say so.
This thought first hit me reading the story of the woman on the bus who lifts her veil to see the knarled faces twisted by sin. And in a fit of anguish Over the plight of man, God at long last reveals UR to her.
She was ready for it now. Loved and served God for ages, but it is not revealed to her till now.
Maybe you are trying to share a revelation reserved for a select few, with the masses.
Maybe God won't reveal it to me because he knows my response to it will be too carnal?
Just throwing it out there also in light of things Rob Bell has reportedly "fallen into".
Did he take the sacred pearls of the Holy of Holys and throw them before swine?
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 19, 2015, 05:35:11 AM
This thought first hit me reading the story of the woman on the bus who lifts her veil to see the knarled faces twisted by sin. And in a fit of anguish Over the plight of man, God at long last reveals UR to her.
She was ready for it now. Loved and served God for ages, but it is not revealed to her till now.
Maybe you are trying to share a revelation reserved for a select few, with the masses.
Maybe God won't reveal it to me because he knows my response to it will be too carnal?
Just throwing it out there also in light of things Rob Bell has reportedly "fallen into".
Did he take the sacred pearls of the Holy of Holys and throw them before swine?
I've wondered about this too because of my personal experience. When I first came to see the truth of all eventually saved it was in a flash. I sat in awe for a couple minutes and one of the first thoughts I had was " Why did you show this to me, a nobody." So I don't know why some see it and some can't and don't want to. But sooner or later I think it will become clear that we have a message that changes the 'gospel' from bad news for most people to good news for everybody.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 19, 2015, 04:44:09 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 19, 2015, 04:02:10 AM
Wadif, I read up on Calvin and Servetus on Wiki, and found that Servetus was the discoverer of the pulmonary circulation. Later, Calvin burned him at the stake and later still, Calvin popped something in his pulmonary circulation. Poetic Justice.
As to the burning, I do not see it as so connected to anyone's theology, but I imagine it was mostly due to Calvin's ego being offended. I may be on dangerous ground here, but I see the same thing with Moses. The Bible tells us that he was the humblest man in the world, but we see him in the book of Exodus (chapter 32), begging God not to destroy Israel, and then he went right down to the camp and had the Levites kill 3,000 people. His own brother, Aaron, who allowed the whole golden calf caper to occur, suffered no punishment. Maybe he ordered the killing at God's command, and sent the Levites out with tears in his eyes - I don't know...anyone else have a view on this?
Poetic justice indeed.
The reason I link it to his theology is based on my own personal response in trying to embrace forced regeneration or predestination. My inclination toward evil behavior increases because I am no longer responsible for it. Nor does it have an effect one way or the other on my eternal destiny. If God steps in and stops it, then it was not pre destined. If he does not stop me from an immoral act like murder, well, it was predestined. And I, like Calvin, need have no remorse over being Gods tool.
So watch what you say to me. :eek: :LH:
Hey Wadif I will respond to your other comments about how God does not respect the choices of men in a pm if you like. I apologize if I went too far in my statements.
You mention that believing in UR is enticing to flesh but I would challenge you with this question. Would you sin less if you believe in some eternal place if judgment? Do you do good just so you can get to heaven or do you do good because you really love God and your fellowman.?
Good question. I grew up In an environment of "hyper-grace". The fear if The Lord was not taught to me although my father and mother both were ordained ministers. I wish so much that they had disciplined me more severely and put "the fear of God" in me. It is not hard to find scripture on how foundational is the fear of The Lord. I still have issues in my life that I feel could have easily been removed when I was a child, by teaching me the fear of God, as is done with children in some orthodox Jewish societies.
I have discovered The Fear of The Lord on my own in the study of scripture. To me it was a beautiful revelation similar to what some of you describe about suddenly realizing UR. It works deep reverence and humility in ways I never had. It gives me a deeper reverence for all His creation including mankind. And yes, it gives me a deep desire to be righteous and holy unlike I ever experienced in the realm of cheap grace. It has made me deeply sorry for the irreverence of my youth. I love taking off my shoes and walking on holy ground now. And it is All holy ground.
I feel The Fear of The Lord does make me less self centered and more aware of my fellow man, and more concerned for their eternal and temporal well being. And yes, more loving.
I have found many places in scripture that make me uncertain if I am one of the few of whom Jesus will refer to as "good and faithful servant". He may say to me "Depart from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you." I certainly call him "Lord", as he said "the many" will do.
But just as a child can become more respectful and loving, unselfish and serving through boundaries, discipline, and looming consequence; I too have responded in this way in my exposure to the biblical wrath if God.
And I have decided that it does not matter what my eternal destiny is. Because today is all I have. And today I will honor and worship and serve the Holy and righteous God of the universe because He is worthy.
If there is an eternal lake of fire, and the Holy One wants to hear an eternal voice of praise to Him rising out of the flames, I am his man. I trust Him. I trust His ability to know where I belong. If I belong in the lake of fire, then maybe I will at long last feel like I belong.
:cloud9: @ Wadif......I think you already answered your own question. But....let's say you didn't. Do you still feel convicted by the Holy Spirit when you sin? How much more convicted do you think you'd feel if you used His grace TO sin willfully because you know He will save all? Your conscience would gnaw at you giving you no peace.
Everyone's knee jerk reaction seems to be that it gives us a license to sin, but I think it's just the opposite. You're more acutely aware of displeasing Him and feel worse when you do. My :2c: Blessings...
isn't that the same objection the early christians heard from the old covenant adherents[law]? I believe these very things are already
addressed in the scriptures. Then Paul spoke of how he was once alive apart from law...then the commandment came..and the sin in his
flesh slayed him through the commandment...and killed him.
it all boils down to accusations and charges of sin against Adam and his descendants under the law...and God's judgement in mercy
through grace per Jesus' sacrifice. The whole goodnews unto man of forgiveness of sins unto Adam's offspring....that God is not
counting their sins against them..and instead is putting forth an olive branch of forgiveness[christ] unto reconciliation and life.
we should not be over-righteous nor over-wicked...why should we die.? that is the pendulum.
Paul spoke of the designs of the devil..and how the church could be overcome of the adversary...when he disciplined the man who had
his Father's wife. turn over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..that the spirit be saved on the day of the Lord. But when the man
repented he was to be accepted back in[lest we be over-reached by satan] a nice balance there wittnessed to in the scriptures.
we have the other end in the judaizers . It was Father's will to lighten the yoke on man...to not heap up heavy loads impossible to bear.
we have a testimony of this wisdom in the scriptures...where a king-elect was counseled to lighten his burden on the people...and the
people would love him[YOU MUST LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH>>>>>] the foolish king elect instead put a much heavier
burden on the people.
we and the holy spirit have decided to place no other burden on the believers other than these few necessary things...............
Are you going to help me look after my children and be nice to them?
A) Yes I will ,because if I am not nice to them you will beat me up.
B)Yes I love you and your children.
:dsunny:
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 19, 2015, 04:07:32 AM
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 03:52:35 AM
That's where the sovereignty of God comes in. Pharaoh was hardened, so his rationality wasn't part of the equation. He could have been perfectly rational it wouldn't matter. He was a vessel in the potter's hands.God has concluded all in disobedience that he may have mercy on all. :2c:
I am working through the stuff you sent me Seth. I told my parents about it because it is just excellent and the kind if work I need.
I still have books unread and links unvisited. I am trying to get to them all and will eventually. I might have to quit my job to get it done though.
The Bible is very clear here in the case of pharaohs heart being hardened by God. I wish the same clarity existed in every secret working of God. I wish it was as clear about UR in general.
You all obviously have a strong case or I would have been gone long ago.
No worries. Let me know if I can clarify. I think, at least from my own perspective, if it's a matter of appealing to the flesh, UR, I believe, is about the whole world being saved from sin, saved from the flesh, and thus could never appeal to it. I don't believe the new covenant gives any ground to sin, and those who continue to sin will continue to reap the destruction of it, by God's judgement, until repentance comes.
The flesh receives no glory in the UR message.
Therefore the flesh rejects the message.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 07:59:29 PM
The flesh receives no glory in the UR message.
Therefore the flesh rejects the message.
Amen.. :iagree: :dsunny:
:cloud9: @ djamaco....You know I never thought about it like that before. That is so true. If God saves all (and He does) look at the works in the religious systems striving to save them in their fleshly efforts, ie. more building programs, bigger churches, more tithes coming in to spend on more luxuries to prove we're "the" right church, more hellfire sermons to keep 'em in line, ect. Blessings....
Cardinal, I have gone to church all my life and have yet to hear a hellfire sermon. Where can I go to hear one? I have read a couple from American history. Never heard one.
As I mentioned, I am coming from the world of hyper-grace. I have seen what it does to certain individuals. And every hyper-grace church has a number of those individuals. Which means I have seen what it does to churches; which means I have seen what it has done to our society at large. When you see the Moses of your movement a spiritual advisor to Oprah, I say take notice! That is a frightening thing to me personally. And I know you would not accept the Moses title for him. But I am pretty sure there are people here who followed him out of Egypt.
At one of my hyper grace churches I remember hearing the young adults very excited and talking about how the pastor was going to be speaking to them on a very controversial subject. So I got excited to find out what the controversial subject was: sex outside of marriage. Evidently it was controversial because some in their group thought it might be wrong to have sex outside of marriage. It is quite a divisive issue.
"To the pure, all things are pure."
Evidently, I found a large pocket of the pure.
Bless you.
Unfortunately, folks tend to quote "to the pure all things are pure" without finishing the sentence, interrupting Paul mid-thought. :sigh:
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 08:37:31 PM
Unfortunately, folks tend to quote "to the pure all things are pure" without finishing the sentence, interrupting Paul mid-thought. :sigh:
Titus 1:5 To the pure, all things are pure,
but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
wow! you are coming from a totally opposite direction from which I come.Had no idea there were churches like that! :Chinscratch:
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 19, 2015, 08:40:13 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 08:37:31 PM
Unfortunately, folks tend to quote "to the pure all things are pure" without finishing the sentence, interrupting Paul mid-thought. :sigh:
Titus 1:5 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
:thumbsup:
Next verse: 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
I'm a hyper Grace believer too, but in the sense of Titus 2:11-14, the next chapter.
"For the Grace of God has appeared to all men, chastening us to deny ungodliness (paraphrased)."
:cloud9: @ Wadif..... I have probably seen a total of 3 Oprah shows in part, in my life, so I don't know to whom you are referring. I love Oprah, I think she wants to do right in her heart, but is blinded by the god of this world still and has encouraged a lot of New Age beliefs with some of her guests/book choices. I hope He gets a good hold on her, she could do much for the kingdom. Blessings....
What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).
But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .
not that the man you speak of is Moses..I do not even know him,nor have I read his stuff. but even 'supposing he is a 'moses' that
people followed out of Egypt..you need to realize that that wicked generation perished in the wilderness..and Moses himself did
not to get to enter into the promised land himself..though he seen it from afar.. Exodus 40;35 Numbers 20;12
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 08:58:21 PM
What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).
But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .
I think a believer who thought that Grace means he had license to sin is a one who doesn't understand what Grace does to sin, and how, according to the scriptures. :2c:
But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may reside in me.
'I will make you jealous by a people with no understanding' comes to mind
sin no more:
8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 09:14:45 PM
But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may reside in me.
So when Grace chastens us to abandon sin, we can boast in his strength in contrast to our weakness.
For it his God in you both to desire and do of his will. It's not licence to sin, but freedom from sin.
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 08:58:21 PM
What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).
But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .
I think a believer who thought that Grace means he had license to sin is a one who doesn't understand what Grace does to sin, and how, according to the scriptures. :2c:
Loving your brother is a better motivator that the fear of Sin.
Sin becomes utterly disgusting as it tries to separate the brothers.
All sin separates.
The purpose of Grace is that LOVE may abound.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 09:30:10 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 08:58:21 PM
What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).
But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .
I think a believer who thought that Grace means he had license to sin is a one who doesn't understand what Grace does to sin, and how, according to the scriptures. :2c:
Loving your brother is a better motivator that the fear of Sin.
Sin becomes utterly disgusting as it tries to separate the brothers.
All sin separates.
We can't credit our own love in my opinion. The holy spirit does the work from within. All of him, none of us.
Having licence to sin and choosing to love according to our own gratitude isn't enough to overcome the carnal mind. We must walk by the Spirit.
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 09:34:06 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 09:30:10 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 08:58:21 PM
What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).
But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .
I think a believer who thought that Grace means he had license to sin is a one who doesn't understand what Grace does to sin, and how, according to the scriptures. :2c:
Loving your brother is a better motivator that the fear of Sin.
Sin becomes utterly disgusting as it tries to separate the brothers.
All sin separates.
We can't credit our own love in my opinion. The holy spirit does the work from within. All of him, none of us.
Having licence to sin and choosing to love according to our own gratitude isn't enough to overcome the carnal mind. We must walk by the Spirit. Hand in hand with our brother
Grace...works :dsunny:
Mankind, He has told you what is good and what it is the Lord requires of you: to act justly, to love faithfulness, and to walk humbly with your God.
:cloud9: @ Seth..... :iagree:
Seth said, "We can't credit our own love in my opinion. The holy spirit does the work from within. All of him, none of us. Having licence to sin and choosing to love according to our own gratitude isn't enough to overcome the carnal mind. We must walk by the Spirit."
:cloud9: We can't even love HIM right. He made this life in me years ago because I felt convicted by other's obvious love for Him and knew there was "something" wrong with me, because I didn't feel that way to the extent I could tell some others I knew did.
I wanted to, I knew He deserved it and more, but was incapable. He dropped into my spirit that when He said we could NOTHING without Him, it including loving Him. I prayed and asked Him to give me the love to love Him with and I changed. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 19, 2015, 09:40:55 PM
:cloud9: @ Seth..... :iagree: We can't even love HIM right. He made this life in me years ago because I felt convicted by other's obvious love for Him and knew there was "something" wrong with me, because I didn't feel that way to the extent I could tell some others I knew did.
I wanted to, I knew He deserved it and more, but was incapable. He dropped into my spirit that when He said we could NOTHING without Him, it including loving Him. I prayed and asked Him to give me the love to love Him with and I changed. My :2c: Blessings....
In other words, it was a free gift! He gave it because you wanted it. Blessed are those who thirst for righteousness... :HeartThrob:
Psalms 133;1,2 how good and pleasant it is when brother's dwell togather in unity! It is like precious oil poured on the head,running down
on the beard,running down on Aaron's beard down upon the collar of his robes.
ps...I am not condoning sin..or hyper-grace as rong puts it. and neither do I think grace is a license to sin. But I do think God is love
and love is patient and kind and forgiving..and does what is right..and is peaceable..and that God as our Father does discipline and correct.
and because of His great love..ye sons of men are not consumed.
Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2015, 09:43:31 PM
In other words, it was a free gift! He gave it because you wanted it. Blessed are those who thirst for righteousness... :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Exactly. I couldn't do it in my own "strength". Blessings....
Shiela
you are a wonderful (brother) sister
double wittness to your post,Bex... I wrote a poem about needing a perfect heart to love Him with in Jan of 2001. :thumbsup:
our love is like the morning dew that quickly fades away...we need His faithful love to love Him aright.
Quote from: sheila on August 19, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Psalms 133;1,2 how good and pleasant it is when brother's dwell togather in unity! It is like precious oil poured on the head,running down
on the beard,running down on Aaron's beard down upon the collar of his robes.
ps...I am not condoning sin..or hyper-grace as rong puts it. and neither do I think grace is a license to sin. But I do think God is love
and love is patient and kind and forgiving..and does what is right..and is peaceable..and that God as our Father does discipline and correct.
and because of His great love..ye sons of men are not consumed.
Yes, and in my opinion, this is where the hellfire crowd swings and misses. Take king Ahab. He was judges with death, but was warned so many times before. Prophet after prophet. I think God's wrath is a very last resort. I think it's reserved only for the most prideful, and results in good fruit. The hellfire folks would have us believe God is just itching to kick some butt and Jesus is holding him back. Peeew.
:HeartThrob: Daj..... :friendstu: she is forgiven much because she loves much.
I have heard of hyper grace ,sloppy grace and wonder could such a thing really exist.
Could someone truly believe Christ died for their sins.
Could they then decide to purposely go and Sin more to bring more glory to Jesus.
Does such a person exist?
Are there so many of them out there that this is the wrong message that the world is receiving.
:thumbsup: Seth
:cloud9: @ daj.....I knew 4 pastors who did. They knew about grace extensively and used it to sin in the flesh, thinking they wouldn't be judged for it. It worked for awhile, but God still has prophets out there that brought them words to repent, and when they didn't, eventually they suffered loss. Were they still "saved"? Yes, but they suffered great loss; all four had their churches and/or denominational associations taken away from them. Blessings....
5 It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even tolerated[a] among the Gentiles—a man is living with his father's wife. 2 And you are inflated with pride, instead of filled with grief so that he who has committed this act might be removed from your congregation.
This verse seems to indicate hyper Grace.
A man being kicked out of the congregation to be destroyed by Satan doesn't sound like the "hyper Grace" that Wadif is talking about.
:cloud9: @ daj.....Yes, I think the man thinking he could get away with it, is hyper grace in action and to me, something else. In what you quoted below, he's speaking to the Jews (we know that the ones who are having their hearts circumcised now are the Jewish "men"), about the sin of a man joining himself to his Father's wife/souls.
David's sin points to the same sin, ie. desired a wife/soul that was not his, and was willing to murder her husband/Christ to have her.
True shepherds were supposed to lead them to a true RELATIONSHIP with Christ who in turns leads them to the Father and His kingdom. Instead, they built their own kingdoms and prostituted the gospel, the people, and the gifts of the Spirit. Might sound harsh but the mirror is there in the Word. My :2c: Blessings....
..generally I find the people that purposely sin are more interested in their own glory..and not God's...ex; lie..'I did not hve sex with that
woman"tend to want to hide sin. there is an example of a young man that had his father's wife and was proud about it.Paul dealt
with it. Personally imo I think the young man was confused about 'not being under law' the fornication/sexual immorality,blood,things
strangled....per Holy spirit should have cleared that up.
something odd I just recalled...that real legalistic church I come out of....a woman had her husbands brother..and was in 'good' standing.
but if you had a birthday cake for your child..you would be disfellowshipped. a lot of people are wacked...
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2015, 10:00:58 PM
I have heard of hyper grace ,sloppy grace and wonder could such a thing really exist.
Could someone truly believe Christ died for their sins.
Could they then decide to purposely go and Sin more to bring more glory to Jesus.
Does such a person exist?
Are there so many of them out there that this is the wrong message that the world is receiving.
I believe so. "For if we sin willfully...."
I doubt Hebrews would warn and raise the issue if it wasn't one. I don't think Peter would have addressed the issue of "natural brute beasts" that he said would be better had they not known the ways of righteousness, if they escaped the corruption of the world and are again entangled, because they end up worse off, if that wasn't an issue.
Quote from: sheila on August 19, 2015, 10:32:27 PM
something odd I just recalled...that real legalistic church I come out of....a woman had her husbands brother..and was in 'good' standing.
but if you had a birthday cake for your child..you would be disfellowshipped. a lot of people are wacked...
:cloud9: Wow.... :bdaycake: :thewife: :dunno:
:doh: seriously...
It goes back to "believe in Jesus and love eachother." What do birthday cakes have to do with those commandments?
My theory is that loving people can be hard. Birthday cake rules are easy and require minimal thought. So maybe people just cling to what they feel they can control the easiest, all the petty stuff that doesn't matter.
well..see..their reasoning goes like this......John the Baptist lost his head because a certain woman danced for this guy on his birthday!
...therefore..birthdays are evil and pagan custom..as are Christmas,Easter, thanksgiving,mothersday,fathersday etc.
also,because windchimes were used centuries ago for some nefarious purpose they were bad....and a unicorn on my daughters purse
her Dad bought her was an issue...as well as scoobie doo on children's pencils. as well as men wearing beards.
crucify could not be used..torture stake was the proper term[cross is pagan symbol and lie]
So it seems that they focus on the external act rather than the the intention of the heart. I guess eating meat sacrificed to idols would be unacceptable too, in all cases.
:sigh: So much confusion
y ep..caused a lot of tension/wrecked my marriage to my husband..who wanted turkey and fixins on Thanksgiving.....a tree at
christmas..etc. I worked a lot of holidays. they did tell me I could fix the turkey etc..but I should not set at the table to eat it..to eat
in the kitchen? sometimes people like to impose their conscience on someone else. I almost lost my mind over it all..major
depression......almost drove my car off a bridge......no-one can serve two masters..they both[church/husband] wanted/demanded
different things from me..and felt they had the legal right to demand what they wanted.
sorry..didn't mean to hi-jack
Quote from: sheila on August 19, 2015, 10:52:17 PM
well..see..their reasoning goes like this......John the Baptist lost his head because a certain woman danced for this guy on his birthday!
...therefore..birthdays are evil and pagan custom..as are Christmas,Easter, thanksgiving,mothersday,fathersday etc.
also,because windchimes were used centuries ago for some nefarious purpose they were bad....and a unicorn on my daughters purse
her Dad bought her was an issue...as well as scoobie doo on children's pencils. as well as men wearing beards.
crucify could not be used..torture stake was the proper term[cross is pagan symbol and lie]
I was paying big $$$$ to send my sons to a private "christian" school. My boys were sent home because their haircuts were too worldly. They had bowl cuts. The were 6 and 8 years old. So silly.
:cloud9: I sent my daughter to a Christian school in middle school. Years later she told me her first day at school, some girls had drugs in the bathroom doing it. Seems all the parents that thought it would be safer, including me, were wrong. :sigh:
...7casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
1 Peter 5:7 -9
This fallen world.........
D.