The Gay Issue

[Paul Hazelwood]

So you do deny the Bible's place in all things that pertain to life and godliness.  Just wanted to make sure.  Thanks for clarifying your position.

If your approval of me in such a matter would mean that I must want some people to be in prison based on your religious bias, then I stand proudly guilty before your court.

Thank you.

[martincisneros]

If your approval of me in such a matter would mean that I must want some people to be in prison based on your religious bias, then I stand proudly guilty before your court.

Thank you.

Expecting absolutely all of God's promises of both destruction and restoration to take place to the very last principle of the Word does not mean that I hold any bad opinion of either you or any of them.  It just means that I expect God to keep absolutely all of His Word and to complete absolutely all life in Himself, but I can't deny any part of the process and be faithful to the Word.  I meant nothing that I said in this thread with any sense of animosity, but I wanted things to be clear on an issue that most Christians have no spine about sticking to the Book.  As you very well know, most Christians claim to believe it all and do it all by the Book, but when an issue like this comes around, then "these are different times than back then" and a hundred thousand other bits of nonsense come up.  I love you, brother, and absolutely all of them.  But not one Word of all of God's Word will fail to be fulfilled in each aspect that it relates in each person's life. 

I'm just consistent and growing more consistent everyday with what I've claimed all of this time to believe:

The B--I--B--L--E

[Molly]

The New Testament condones slavery? :mshock:

[reFORMer]

Average gay life expectancy

Early reports in the 1980's suggested that male homosexuals had an average life expectancy of less than 50 years - more than 20 years less than the overall male population. With the push for "safe" sex and improved treatments for AIDS, one would expect that the life expectancy might have increased since then. However, a Canadian study in 1997 found that male homosexuals have a life expectancy of 20 years less than the general male population (based upon a prevalence of 3% of the male population).1 Using several different measures, including life expectancy determined from obituaries, two large random sexuality surveys (in the USA and Great Britain), and a survey of those never married in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway, indicated an average age of death of less than 50 years old.2 A third study, published in 2002, found that the median age of death of 88 homosexually partnered men was 45 years, while for 118 unpartnered homosexual men it was 46 years.3 This latter study put the average life expectancy of male homosexuals nearly 30 years less than the general male population. Another study showed that, on average, ever-married men outlived the ever-homosexually-partnered by 23 years in Denmark (74 yr. v. 51 yr.), and 25 years in Norway (77 yr. v. 52 yr.) Ever-married women outlived the ever-homosexually-partnered in Denmark by 22 years (78 yr. v. 56 yr.), and in Norway by almost 25 years (81 yr. v. 56 yr.).4

1.Hogg RS, Strathdee SA, Craib KJ, O'Shaughnessy MV, Montaner JS, Schechter MT. 1997. Modeling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men. Int. J. Epidemiol. 26:657-661.
2.Cameron P, Cameron K, Playfair WL. 1998. Does homosexual activity shorten life? Psychol. Rep. 83:847-66.
3.Cameron P. 2002. Homosexual partnerships and homosexual longevity: a replication. Psychol. Rep. 91:671-678.
4.Cameron, C. and K. Cameron. 2007. Federal Distortion Of Homosexual Footprint (Ignoring Early Gay Death?) Family Research Institute.
5.Doll, R., R. Peto, J. Boreham, and I. Sutherland. 2004. Mortality in relation to smoking: 50 years' observations on male British doctors. British Med. J. 328:1519.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/homosexuality.html

[reFORMer]

Psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders

A scientific study in the Netherlands revealed that homosexual behavior significantly increases the likelihood of psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders. Youth are four times more likely to suffer major depression, almost three times as likely to suffer generalized anxiety disorder, nearly four times as likely to experience conduct disorder, four times as likely to commit suicide, five times as likely to have nicotine dependence, six times as likely to suffer multiple disorders, and more than six times as likely to have attempted suicide.11

A study examining twins raised in the same household revealed in those twins in which at least one twin was homosexual, 80 percent of those twins the other was straight. Those gay-straight twins with same-sex partners were 6.5 times as likely as their co-twin to have attempted suicide. The higher rate was not explained by mental health or substance abuse disorders.12 Other studies have shown that homosexuals seek psychological help at greater frequencies than heterosexuals (see figures to right).13

11.Theo G.M. Sandforte, T. Graaf, R. Bijl, R. Schnabel, P. 2001. Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: Findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence. Archives of General Psychiatry 58: 85-91.
12.Herrell, R. et al. 1999. A Co-twin Control Study in Adult Men. Archives of General Psychiatry 56: 867-874.
13.Statistics Canada, Catalogue 82-003. Health Reports, Vol. 19, No. 1, March 2008, page 58. (original data )

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/homosexuality.html

[reFORMer]

Gay bashers

There is a lot of talk these days about gay bashing, with Christians often being accused of this (I'm sure I will get e-mails from this page). However, government statistics show that homosexuals are nearly 20 times more likely to be abused by other homosexuals than by heterosexuals.9 A recent study showed that nearly one third of practicing homosexuals were abused by their partners.10

9.A U.S. Justice Department study found an annual average of 13,740 male victims of violence by homosexual partners and 16,900 victims by lesbian partners. (U.S. Department of Justice, "Intimate Partner Violence and Age of Victim, 1993-99," Bureau of Justice Selected Findings.) By contrast, the 1999 statistics for hate crimes based on sexual orientation totaled 1,558 victims (U.S. Department of Justice Statistics, Uniform Crime Reports 1999).
10.Eric Houston, E. and D. J. McKirnan. 2007. Intimate Partner Abuse among Gay and Bisexual Men: Risk Correlates and Health Outcomes. Journal of Urban Health 84: 681-690.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/homosexuality.html

[reFORMer]

Dangerous lifestyle


The U.S. FDA defines the criteria for blood donation.6 Many forms of sexual behavior prevent blood from being accepted through the Red Cross and other agencies. According to the standard questionnaire, "men who have had sex with another man even one time since 1977," are disqualified from donating blood because of risk of AIDS to the blood supply. No other lifestyle is excluded from donation for only one event in the last 31 years. Obviously, the risk of HIV infection is greater in those who practice homosexuality in the United States. However, other diseases, including methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus7 and Herpes simplex virus-2 (cause of genital herpes)8 contribute to increasing morbidity among gays.

   1. CBER Blood Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs). Food and Drug Administration, Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, Updated March 15, 2004.
   2. Binh An Diep. 2008. Emergence of Multidrug-Resistant, Community-Associated, Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus Clone USA300 in Men Who Have Sex with Men. Ann. Intern. Med.
   3. In New York City, the incidence of genital herpes is 32% for homosexual men compared to 18% for heterosexuals. SURVEY FINDS GENITAL HERPES IS COMMON AMONG NEW YORKERS. 2008. From the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/homosexuality.html

[Molly]

Maybe we should read those stats to the kindergartners to be fair and balanced.

[Sarah]

A scientific study in the Netherlands revealed that homosexual behavior significantly increases the likelihood of psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders.

hmmmm. I wonder if this has anything to do with us? I am actually spineless in that I haven't admitted to anyone my doubts regarding the Christian stand on homosexuals in real life because nothing I say would ever matter from that point on. Forget about showing people my revelation of ur and the love and commitment I have to the children in my community! If I were to voice any support in any way for the homosexual, my voice and my influence would be lost. I wonder how it feels for the homosexual?

A recent study showed that nearly one third of practicing homosexuals were abused by their partners.10

I wonder if heterosexuals would fair any better?

And yes Molly, in the days of Abe Lincoln, many used the bible as a solid support for slavery.

Believe it or not, I'm not sold it is ok, but these types of arguments appealing to fear are not persuading.

[Molly]

And yes Molly, in the days of Abe Lincoln, many used the bible as a solid support for slavery.

Believe it or not, I'm not sold it is ok, but these types of arguments appealing to fear are not persuading.

Old Testament or New?

It was the Christians that got rid of the slave trade in England.   Did you see Amazing Grace?

[martincisneros]

Bernie makes me wonder if this all imagination built by religion due to his perception of the legalization of gay marriage in South Africa.

Bernie's isn't the only opinion about where he lives.  Other people are liable to assess things differently.  Some people may be trying to get out of there as fast as finances and an idea of where to go will allow them to!  I'll minimally say that I severely am not big on the city that I live in.  For other people, it's liable to be their Utopia if they're here, or their Promised Land that they're trying to get to for their own reasons, having their own stories about that, etc.  The one plus about where I live is that if we hit negative zero fahrenheit temperatures once or twice in ten years, it's a total flabberghasting surprise.  Yet, as it's getting close to fall/winter/spring for many other locations, they just brace themselves; it's not a matter of "if," but "when."  Some desert climates even have surprising night times in the winter, as far as how cold it will get.  They might honestly leave Bernie pretty much alone where he lives, except for friendships, whereas in San Francisco he might need a shotgun with him everywhere he went because of a more aggressive homosexual culture, sexually and every other kind of aggression. 

Certain things are going to be a matter of where you live, the local cultural conditioning, etc., as far as whether or not it's going to be like Sodom and Gomorrah where they're going to be demanding at the door anybody you've got with you as in the example of what happened to Lot.  People pretty much being at peace with Bernie where he lives is likely to be both the favor of the Lord and the fact that they've been through so much where he lives that there's a general sigh of relief in the air about certain aspects of previous nonsense no longer being a part of the equation.  And any mellowness that Bernie senses around him could be a reflection of other political and economic matters not the least bit related to the homosexual fight for marriage in his country having been supposedly resolved favorably.  Something being a certain way in a certain area doesn't necessarily make it's cause automatically this or that.  But the issues associated with this issue go far deeper than the right to marry if I'm even remotely correct about what the Bible has to say about it.

Because if marriage would have successfully resolved this issue, why is there nothing in the Bible prescribing it to preserve discipline, cultural order, universal happiness, etc. in a single instance of either Israelite history or as a prescription on the part of one of the prophets to the other nations of the world?  There's nothing to indicate that the ancient Rabbis particularly salivated at the idea of stoning someone over this particular sin more than any other sin.  Had they genuinely believed that God had said otherwise through Moses and the Prophets, they'd of gone with it.  It was the part about the Messiah and the coming Kingdom that they had all jacked up in their thinking and they got weird about the Sabbath, the washing of hands, the swearing of oaths, offerings, and praying to be seen.  But we must NOT presume that they had other areas all screwed up that neither Jesus nor the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament ever called them on the carpet on. 

The early Christian extra-Biblical writings reinterpret the food laws in terms of associations with people, or bring out more types and shadows from the Old Testament about Christ and the Church, or they got really weird about gnosticism, docetism, arianism, modalism, and amillenialism, but there's never this alternative development of alternative sexual views, although I am aware of the fragmentary document known as 2Clement that gets into the same male/female analogies that Andrew Jukes got into in some of his writings.  But it was never a lack of clarity on sexual issues from a Judeo-Christian standpoint.  The Bible said what it said on that.  UR, the animal gospel, postmillenialism, redemption from the curse through Christ, prosperity theology, justification by grace through faith, sanctification by the Spirit, how to cast out demons, a believer's supernatural identity in Christ, the mysteries of the laying on of hands to deliberately do this or that, the High Priestly ministry of Jesus and our rights to cause the will of God to come to pass through what we say, the operations and manifestations of the Holy Spirit through the believer's faith, and the other wonders of a believer's Spirit-filled life, particularly through the devotional and reconstructive prayer language, are pretty close to the extent of what got suppressed back then through a combination of the Church Fathers, Popes, and Emperors, but there was never confusion on the Bible's stand on homosexuality even if they got into some dark behaviour in some of the monastaries with people being there that really didn't have the calling/gifting to be there without a woman.


Accidentally wrote "disciple" instead of "discipline" when I first wrote this post and only caught it a few rereadings later.

[reFORMer]

Homosexuality and Christians


Men and women are profoundly different in psychological ways. Those who have spent time in homosexual relationships are with somone who is like themselves rather than very other. Love and special aspects of our nature are developed in loving another different from yourself more than in loving what is the same as yourself. Even if there was past involvement in homosexual activity, the longer a man and a woman live in love together the more that something special we're made for is brought forth and established. It's a different demand, often about relationship beyond understanding. Communication is across an impassable abyss or it is ineffable union. It's not the same for two girlfriends or a couple of guys who tend to understand each other. The more a gay couple are like a heterosexual couple the less they are alike.

When the two or more together in His name have the blessing of the Holy Spirit they walk connected to the agent of transcendant change. God brings us out of the human into the Divine which is out everything destroying man into victory even over death. Most marriages where one partner, specially if it's a man, has had these things in their past do not make it something public. They do not proclaim themselves "ex-gay." They just go about their lives, dealing with that along with whatever other difficulties are common to man while finding joy and comfort in God and each other. There are so many that the radical pro-gay loud mouths haven't calculated on how obvious their lies appear and are remarked on in society at large. Being against the changableness of man and reviling the love from those who, though they reject the gay lifestyle yet love those caught in it, are very apparently fraudulent and damaging deceptions. The media may promote another agenda; but, whatever is not of the truth ultimately fails.

Two really horrible lies seem to have taken over much of the modern media. Both lies are absolutely not the human experience. One is that to not approve of the gay lifestyle means you're bigotted with a mental illness called homophobia. What child has not tried this argument with it's parents? "If you don't give me what I want, you don't love me!" Myself, along with very many others know we love people who do not walk according to Godliness. It's alway been denied we loved those who approve of sin. The other lie is that people can't change (which includes God can't change people.) Once gay, always gay. Many people happily testify to the contrary. Who should be believed?

A lot of people enjoy their life: religion, sex, careers and such. They seem relatively unaware they're dead-heads, neither fulfilling the physical human role they were born to play nor realizing their greater gifts given to those pleasing God. If you want God and His truth, stay away from pseudo-christian pro-gay nonsense. They want to defend arguments made by any self respecting alcoholic.

Somebody who says they must be true to themselves rather than God lives in a self made realm, not in the Holy Spirit. How about a man who keeps fornicating with women who says he just can't help himself, he was born that way and must be true to himself? Is there supposed to be some new revelation, a new way to read the Bible and make it all OK? I was born dirtying my diapers but I didn't stay that way.  I didn't make a new religion so I can walk around approved for wearing dirty diapers as an adult.  Attempts to re-invent Christian truth will not succeed but only decieve yourself.  God will have a Royal Priesthood who will reign with Him.

Personal comfort has never been a deciding factor in serving God. Regardless of the lusts that rage in one's heart, Jesus says, "If you would be coming under My discipline to experience what learning of Me produces you must every day take up your cross, DENY YOURSELF, and follow me." Denying yourself is not compatible with self realization and self fulfillment. God realization, to fulfill His desire is another path. Any "carnal" identity if walked after produces death. Whether or not people find some higher pleasure in their bodies or go AWOL from some inner war are not criteria for Divine approval or spiritual development; but, rather quite the opposite. It's not how well I function, certainly not how well my sex works that's the question. It's how well does the Holy Spirit function in my life. Of course, these are matters for those who would be members of Christ, His flesh and bone in the earth. Those only concerned for the utmost of human fufillment have no interst in the kingdom of God.

There are many things that make people have sexual difficulties. These problems are part of marriage. No marriage has an assurance of tomorrow. As long as both give themselves to each other as completely as possible, respecting each other's personal pursuits while they whole heartedly follow Jesus they can expect success, even if it's with a limp.  How many perfect tens are out there? The simple solution to marriage problems is DENY YOURSELF. Sounds like Jesus' qualification for following Him.

As if it basic Christian faith and practice should be something else for a homosexual!  What happily married Christian man doesn't feel attraction to a pretty girl?  He denies himself to follow Jesus. But this should not apply to homosexual attraction?  Are we only Christians if we're not tempted? I feel bad that so many in any walk of life think the call to be turning from their own ways means we don't love them; that forsaking all would be damaging rather than incomparably rewarded by the Holy Spirit. If God didn't give me something so much better in giving me Himself, why would I suffer if need be to serve Him? You just need to get the Holy Spirit. That will spoil you for anything else. He'll discipline you 'til you'd do anything rather than offend or lose Him.


your brother, James Rohde

[martincisneros]

The New Testament condones slavery? :mshock:

No, it doesn't.  It's the only subject in the Bible with a whole epistle specifically written about it: Philemon.  Some would say, but what about 1John?  What about it?  it gets into the Blood, the Anointing, the Coming of Christ on the New Earth, our no longer needing teachers on the New Earth, walking in the light, distinguishing between light and darkness, etc.  But Philemon's Onesimus's ordination letter where St. Paul says things about him that he never says about Timothy's readiness for every good work.  It's the greatest declaration of independence from human slavery that's perhaps ever been written.  And Onesimus preserved it for our canon when he compiled copies of St. Paul's epistles together with his epistle to the Ephesians that we have in our New Testament.  St. Paul virtually renamed Onesimus with his own name, "Paul" in Philemon, but Philemon's a whole course in theology beyond the scope of this thread and this forum.  Onesimus, according to William Barclay, became Bishop of Ephesus later.  Because of the traditional confusion about the nature and contents of Philemon, it was preached from on both sides of the abolitionist issue in Britain leading up to the story that's presented in the Amazing Grace movie.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Dangerous lifestyle

The U.S. FDA defines the criteria for blood donation.6 Many forms of sexual behavior prevent blood from being accepted through the Red Cross and other agencies

ALL donations of blood are screened and only those admitting certain behavior would be refused in the first place.  If a person went and admitted they had heterosexual unprotected sex with multiple partners as often as they had the opportunity, would they take the blood?  You got that stat handy?


The case cannot be made for jailing gays because they are gay.  


In 2004 the known HIV count was spread among 31% of hetersexuals.  Worldwide more heterosexuals have it.  

The stats are skewed in this country because when aids was first recognized they discovered it in  homosexuals and deemed it a homosexual disease, so heterosexuals were not even included in the stats.  Once the stats became more balanced by 2004 31% of hiv cases were in heterosexuals.

When you can make the case for an openly monogomous gay couple deserving jail time and why they should not be allowed to marry, let me know, no one has.

[martincisneros]

If they don't separate themselves in their behaviour from who they are, then you can't arbitrarily do that for them for a philosophical debate.  A defense of homosexuals is a defense of homosexuality.  Paul, is there a particular reason why you're defending homosexuality?  Because that's what you're doing even if you're making a distinction in your mind that those very people don't make.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If they don't separate themselves in their behaviour from who they are, then you can't arbitrarily do that for them for a philosophical debate.  A defense of homosexuals is a defense of homosexuality.  Paul, is there a particular reason why you're defending homosexuality?  Because that's what you're doing even if you're making a distinction in your mind that those very people don't make.

Nope, your missing the point altogether.   Defending a homosexuals rights to liberty and the right to marry is condoning the principals this country was founded upon.

This country was not founded upon the demand that Gods law from the bible be enacted to the land, period. This country was founded on the right to believe what you want and that includes believing that the bible is not true or that any part of it must be followed by anyone who does not want to.

Risky behavior that endangers the public health is not exclusive to homosexuality and being homosexual is not cause for incarceration.  You have implied that you have no problem with a gay person being put into jail, in fact, if you had your way they would be put to death.

What you cannot justly do is take the principals of freedom and equality this country was founded upon and apply it to the justification of murdering gays for being gay without enacting the belief that your religious principals should be the law of the land.

You appear to be saying that you want biblical law to be the law of the land, but then quote scripture as if you would be exempt from being subject to the criteria of your own assertions which implies that you are without sin.   If your going to kill gays for breaking Gods law, you should not be exempt because you think somehow your faith excludes you from being subject to the law of the land.


It is from the perspective of that nonsense that I defend gays and if I step on the toes of someones self righteousness, I am proud to do so.

[martincisneros]

I welcome the death blow when I'm proven to be living in sin.  This country was founded on the New Testament.  Have you ever read the writings of the founding Fathers of this country?  Or have you watched selectively edited documentary material or writings about the Founding Fathers that were written after the Civil War, particularly from the 1920s onwards when the historical revisionists really took over in doing a hatchet job on the history of this country?  The phrase "separation of Church and state" came out of the Reformation as the Reformers were discussing the need to separate the state's ability to kill someone over their denomination, but it was never meant to indicate that the Scriptures would be separated from the government.  The founding Fathers were ABUNDANTLY CLEAR ABOUT THIS.  That phrase NEVER lost the meaning that it had in the Reformation until the 20th century when the Supreme Court started abusing the phrase roughly in the 1940s.

A 1913 court declared:  Marriage was not originated by human law. When God created Eve, she was a wife to Adam; they then and there occupied the status of husband to wife and wife to husband. . . . [Marriage] will produce a home and family that will contribute to good society, to free and just government, and to the support of Christianity. . . . It would be sacrilegious to apply the designation "a civil contract" to such a marriage. It is that and more; a status ordained by God." Grigsby v. Reib

Justice James Wilson-" an original Justice on the US Supreme Court and a signer of both the Declaration and the Constitution-" was the father of organized legal training in America. In the law book he authored for law students, sodomy was so disgusting-" was such an obvious violation of "the laws of nature and of nature's God" -  that when it came time to discuss that particular crime in the course of legal studies, Wilson simply declared:

"The crime not to be named [sodomy], I pass in a total silence."

Sodomy was a behavior so reprehensible to "the laws of nature and of nature's God"  that Wilson (along with many other Founders) was ashamed even to speak of it.

So, since you're pro homosexual marriage, Paul, does this mean that you're pro homosexual adoption?  If gay marriage is okay, are you ready to hand over the kids to them as well?  You're kidding yourself if you even remotely think that that wouldn't be indoctrination of children in it.

[reFORMer]

So a minister that divorces, remarries and preaches continues in sin as he and his wife are adulterers every time they have sex.  That is also for remarried divorcees according of course to Leviticus.

According to Moses the first divorce, he gives no reasons for or against, just the first divorce and 2nd marriage is OK.  Certainly Jesus discouraged it.  Moses goes on to allow a 2nd divorce but no marriage thereafter or it would be considered adultery.  Adultery carries a death sentence under Moses.

I relate to home fellowship/every member participation kind of churches.  Whatever sin, people are forgiven.  But if they continue in sin, even seemingly repentant, they're certainly not allowed to minister among us and very possibly a line may be drawn and they may be asked to leave.  Unrepentant, they are certainly not around for long.  This is simple Biblical church disipline.  I've personally been through this even for false accusations, incredibly several times.  Also for serving God I've been disfellowshipped.  I hurt, but I didn't die.  I went on somewhere else God prepared for me.

People don't have to be accepted by other Christians to go on with God.  Watchman Nee reports how sometimes a brother came in among them and gave some of the most impressive sermons they'd ever heard.  After several times they spoke to him about flowing with the brethren and "standing on Church ground" (that's how they translated it, on the foundation or basis of being the Church, wow!)  If he would not, then they suggested he go on somewhere else and do whatever it is he was doing or feels he should do to serve God.  They weren't there to become his work.  They were together building a house for the Lord, not becoming a house for his ministry.

It's a priveledge to be among the people of God.  I've gone through periods where there was not much fellowship.  Most churches don't allow it.  They're an audience for a few professionals.  Too bad the things I had from God were awesome and they never had opportunity to share with me due to traditional religious practices.  For various reasons we must find our identity, affirmation and fellowship with the Holy Ghost without other people.  But what a wonder to be included with the household of God, participating with other saints in the upbuilding of one another.

This fellowship cannot be forced to be with the unholy.  It cannot even be found unless God allows.

[martincisneros]

Paul, is there a particular reason why you're defending homosexuality?  Because that's what you're doing even if you're making a distinction in your mind that those very people don't make.

Wow Martin, you sure speak with a forked tongue, earlier you stated the gays riled you to come out the closet and here you are insinuating Paul is "a closet gay"

I never insinuated that Paul was a closeted homosexual.  Never even occured to me 'cause I've never had an accusatory spirit the whole time I've posted to this thread.  If I came across that way, I sincerely appologize.  But my thoughts were more along the line of friends or relatives having the issue when I asked the question.  If I'd honestly thought that about him for a second, I'd of PMed him about it with the question to see if that's where he was coming from, but it never occured to me.

[DeeDee]

I get where you are all coming from. I see everyones views on this. Yet my views stay the same for a few very simple biblical reasons. Fine lets say being Homosexual is wrong. We take it as the bible says, and we knight it as being wrong. Why is that not the end of it?

We are not meant to:

1. Judge others
2. Cast stones

We are supposed to love our neighbours as we do ourselves. Please don't get me wrong, as I said I get where everyone here is coming from. All I am saying is should'nt we leave the Judgements / Judging up to the only one who is permitted to Judge?

Blessings
Dee

[martincisneros]

I get where you are all coming from. I see everyones views on this. Yet my views stay the same for a few very simple biblical reasons. Fine lets say being Homosexual is wrong. We take it as the bible says, and we knight it as being wrong. Why is that not the end of it?

We are not meant to:

1. Judge others
2. Cast stones

We are supposed to love our neighbours as we do ourselves. Please don't get me wrong, as I said I get where everyone here is coming from. All I am saying is should'nt we leave the Judgements / Judging up to the only one who is permitted to Judge?

Blessings
Dee

Amen!

[reFORMer]

and dont forget suicides  ReFormer  , they are High in the gay and lesbian comunity , especially the youth , sad but true  reality

Rose, why are suicides higher?  And do not forget teen pregnancies stats either.  It is because the church discriminates against them and they are classed as rejects of society.

We do not have that problem here in SA anymore.

Even with increasing acceptance in the USA there has been no diminishing of gay suicide rates.  Why?  They cannot get the approval they need when they reject their own nature.  Everybody is born with certain assigned projects to deal with in this life.  One of them is a male or female body (mutations, ie., "exceptions" do not determine the rule) and sexual reproduction is based on subjecting yourself to your assigned sex to mate with the opposite sex.  To deny your assigned physical identity is a primary lie.  As a group, a homosexual characteristic is they are liars.  They are also unthankful and often proud.  Additionally, without going along with their Creator, they even more fundamentally cannot obtain the sense of acceptance they realize they lack.  No back slappin' from one another can fill that void.

Someone asked what causes people to be gay.  The answer is better known in Romans 1, but also in Ezekiel 16.49-51:  "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."  The culture in which it is "bred" has lots of food, abundance of liesure time, lack of personal involvement in helping the poor and needy, arrogance . . .

There's much more in that chapter.  One thing you might not notice is God saying (v.7) what the ornament of ornaments is: the beginning growth of hair and breasts on a young girl.

[martincisneros]

What makes you think that whites are still trying to leave?  In fact stats show many that left are returning in spite of the affirmative action which now is largely irrelevant except parastatals like energy, telecoms and water.

I never singled out whites in particular.  I vaguely know a little about the history, but next to nothing about demographics there.

How much of your constitution comes from the bible?  The laws governing stuff like speed on the highways? Stuff like environmental issues? Nothing?  I thought so.

Still over 90% of the U.S. constitution is from the Bible to the present day.  Perhaps 100% of it, but I haven't reread it in a while for any additional amendments.  We have the writings of the founding Fathers of the U.S. for the Scripture references on what things were based upon.  There's a difference between the federal constitution, state constitutions, and city constitutions.  State and city laws are more likely where highway speeds, environmental issues are handled, etc.

You are basing the entire premise of secular law should equal biblical law.  Not even beloved Israel is biblical and >90% of their citizens are atheist/secular.

And atheists are a great example because.....????

What you are proposing is OT law which boils down to a theocracy.  that would mean if successful, the gay would not be the only victims of your type of thinking but Muslims, Hindus, Native Indians, atheists, too.

The Bible forbids and condemns a theocracy.  Both Testaments come down to a Republican form of government based upon the Scriptures.  The Scriptures, prior to Plato, taught choosing out leaders of 10s, 50s, 100s, and 1000s, which is the local, county, state, and federal system, as interpreted by the founding Fathers of the U.S.  And they were to be men who feared God, hating coveteousness, according to the Bible, ruling based upon Biblical principles.  That's a Republic in the way that the founding Fathers of the U.S. understood it.  It's the furthest thing from what we've got right now, but Article 4, Section 4 forbids us from becoming either a theocracy or a democracy, although a democratic rule is what we've been growing towards since our Civil War, and particularly since historical revisionists began manipulating our history in the 1920s by their arbitrary decision that all people care about is the economic side of history.  When you look at why the U.S. separated from Great Britain, all most Americans can tell you is "taxation without representation," but the Declaration of Independence gives 27 reasons and "taxation without representation" was the least important one.  Religious liberty to have a New Testament Republic was a major reason as you read through the reasons and additionally through the writings of the Founding Fathers of the U.S. that they wrote during that time that it was being drafted.  The Motto of the American Revolution was "No King, but King Jesus!"  When you really really dig into U.S. history it gets really fun with all of the SPECTACULAR miracles that happened that were on par, and sometimes even bigger than the miracles that established Israel as a nation.  Today, we've got a spiritually bankrupt Supreme Court that's trying to rip every shred of our history from us, but the very first session of the U.S. Supreme Court was a 4 hour communion service.

[jabcat]

Martin quoted: "26 Therefore God gives them over to dishonorable passions. For their females, besides, alter the natural use into that which is beside nature.
27 Likewise also the males, besides, leaving the natural use of the female, were inflamed in their craving for one another, males with males effecting indecency, and getting back in themselves the retribution of their deception which must be."

Martin, it's obviously not only the OT Levitical laws that teach us that the failure to abstain from active homosexuality is a sin to avoid and will be dealt with in God's judgment.    As you quote, the New Testament is really clear on the matter.  Not just in this passage, but in at least another or two.  As believers aren't we supposed to honor scripture as best we know how and are empowered by God so to do?  IMO, many times we attempt to usurp scripture with our carnal minds, either by simply ignoring it, or casting doubt on its inspiration and trustworthiness.  The same Word that says don't judge and do love, also says to go and sin no more, confess your sins, turn from your wicked ways, etc., etc.  IMO, moral relativism and and adherence to spirit revealed scripture don't mix.  Admittedly we don't always measure up.  The Apostle Paul admitted he didn't either, in his own power.  However, IMO, if we seek obedience to the Father, the Spirit and the Word show us the way..either we believe and adhere to the Book, or we don't.  I'm not talking about legalism or judging.  I'm talking about the relevance and sanctity of scripture as opposed to making it up as we go based on our own deception and carnal minds.  

Thank you Martin, James, Craig, Nathan, DeeDee, Rosered and any others I may have missed that are taking a stand for the Word.  We can love and not judge, yet stand for scriptural truth all at the same time...because it's all in there.  Holding to God's precepts as revealed in and through scripture, and then brought to life in us by the Spirit, does not a Pharisee make.  It's the attitude and spirit, and the love in which its presented...not that it shouldn't be presented.     God's blessing, James.  

[Mickiel]

I think most people are Gay, because they are supposed to be Gay. Thats just the way God wanted it to unfold. People are of a certain race and culture, because they are supposed to be that way, through  no choice of their own. Many people are goodless in their belief, simply because they are supposed to be that way, God wanted a certain amount of Atheist to be in the population. And he wants that number maintained.

There are a certain amount of Gays, who are Gay by choice, they are far different than those who were born Gay. And I believe that many people are born Gay. In such cases, it is not by choice, but by nature. In such cases as being born Gay by nature, it simply cannot be helped, you are what you are. In these cases, I believe it to be by Gods actual will that this one was born Gay, and I think God wanted a certain number of them to be maintained in the population.

It is God that controls human population and nature, not human choice or sin.

Peace.