The Creation of the Waster

[Aerex]

Why do most Christians have a hard time believing that God created Satan and that God is responsible for evil? It seems I find a lot of time people blame Satan for all the bad things but really it is Gods doing. Its like God is good and Satan is evil.

[sheila]

only God is good.  while true that God made the TOKOGAE and placed in the garden..He also commanded not to eat of it lest on

the day ye eat of it you die. It seems I find a lot of times that people blame God for all bad things..but really it is satan's doings. [sorry]

  it is like God is evil and satan is good.

   our disobedience of His wise counsel cause us to 'know' or become one flesh with..both good and evil[confusion by mixing]

  originally man and the creation was 'good' not perfect.  that which is good is not deemed 'perfect' until it is tested/tried.

    the evil in the tree of good and evil tries us..being tempted of the evil[let no man say God tempts with evil] and disobeying

shows we are not perfected..but a mix of both good and evil. Resisting temptation..and obeying God and not leaning on your own

understanding...and suffering of evil in our flesh for doing right and obeying....tries us and proves us as true/perfect.

   He who has suffered in his flesh for  resisting evil is perfect.  Just as Jesus suffered in His flesh for being obedient unto the Father

and was perfected. Look,Peter,Satan has demanded to sift ye men like wheat! Consider Job, and satan approaching God to do this very

thing.

   There is a subtil serpent amongst the branches of the TOKOGAE.  and though man be 'marred' in the hands of the potter...

   He can of the same lump of clay make another vessel...that is of the TOL...and there is no death in it.

[Ross]

Satan poses as an angel of light. He is going to come to claim the temple and call himself god. To enter the temple he has to fool the Jews to think he is the Christ. Promoting self-righteousness  through dedication to the law.
Many churches are not talking about this info.
Not many churches refer to Isiah 45;7-12 Paul also refers to this in Romans 9;18--30
All this to teach us good from evil in a direct manner.
Plus we try to blame satan for all our mistakes. This would seem to be why the period where satan is locked away for 1000 years- this to highlight that we cannot blame anything or anyone for when we have erred.

We are to become like Christ in everything. So our lessons have to be intense.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Below is an article which does a good job in explaining how evil plays its part in God's purpose.

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/purpose-of-evil.htm

[Lazarus Short]

Sadly, most Christians do not read their Bibles and thus never get past the milk stage of their spiritual development.  They fall into the trap of viewing God as all good (like Santa Claus) and Satan as all bad (a free agent, not just the head of God's "evil division"). If you have read your Bible and have dealt with the strong meat to be found there, you know that God made both good and evil - He said as much.  Most folks never stopped to wonder, "Wait, a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - how did that get there?"

Happily, once we have been perfected by the tools of good and evil, the tool of evil will be discarded forever.  The cosmos will once again be very good.

[Ross]

 Most folks never stopped to wonder, "Wait, a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - how did that get there?"


Exactly. Basis for much of our experience is to teach us that very concept.

[joeteekay]

Most folks never stopped to wonder, "Wait, a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - how did that get there?"


Exactly. Basis for much of our experience is to teach us that very concept.

How true  :thumbsup:

[guest5685]

I have an idea to consider. I think that ability we have been given to question things is that reasoning power of the mind. I think that is what was made subject to vanity. We have the ability to question God--our father. Eve as the soul questioned as to why she should or should not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She the soul made a bad choice. That reasoning power I'll call Satan. Adam being the flesh man follows the soul Eve. It's still like that today for the most part. Man chases woman. Adam being the Body follows Eve the soul. Adam it says was not deceived says the bible. Why? Just the body!

Today our ADAM follows our EVE. The mind or soul EVE does the thinking or reasoning and our ADAM always agrees and follows. I think we are going to find that this so called Satan is simply that fallen mindset that questions God. We are being trained to understand FATHER KNOWS BEST without the questioning him as would a rebellious child. That's my view and that big bad Satan is just that whisperer of the reasoning mind or soul. Once I started to believe that way No More Devil. More peace and greater understanding of God's Love and Grace.

Feel free to disagree or think on this and see if it doesn't make more sense that the big spooky fairy tales.

[Horan]

Well, your reasoning power may be working a little over-time to rationalize Satan under the carpet. You won't convince me that our Lord was tempted in the wilderness by the human, all too human foibles of his own mind. I can appreciate that the Biblical story which describes how evil came into the world isn't very intellectually satisfying, but likely anything we invent to make the story more palatable to the modern, thinking mind only introduces error, tending to obscure rather than reveal. So I'll take Adam and Eve with a snake in the garden to the bank. It's been given that we'll understand everything in the fullness of time, so there may easily be some things that we simply need to accept on faith, as children do, the problem of evil being one of these.  Free will is another which to me seems impossible to approach rationally without getting into endless mental conundrums. But this illustrates nicely for me another great value in the historical approach to understanding Revelation, which shows that most of that document has already happened, in that it demonstrates so well a long-standing, consistently sustained, massively well integrated plot against our Lord, such that it's unimaginable that the human mind could imagine it.

[sheila]

I have a hard time believing that Jesus 'humoured' the people of His day...casting out evil spirit's and all..when it is just a fallen

  mindset.

[Horan]

I have a hard time believing that Jesus 'humoured' the people of His day...casting out evil spirit's and all..when it is just a fallen mindset.

Also a good point. Nor do I believe that God created evil. Our Bible has Lucifer rebelling of his own accord. There's a great mystery here, and I would suggest folks not strain too hard to solve it in such a way that the errant mind is satisfied. The problem of evil is inextricably bound up with the problem of free will, and nobody has ever resolved it successfully with rational argument, so far as I know. I doubt very much we have what it takes, and must therefore be content to patiently wait on our Lord to reveal these things to us in the fullness of time. 

[Horan]

Another thing I'll take to the bank is that, in the fullness of time, when everything is revealed, we'll understand very well that the way God has created an image of Himself in mankind is the exact, most merciful way it could be done.

[guest5685]

Sheila--I doubt that Jesus humored the people either. Now we know that thoughts have power and they are spirit. If a man thinks evil thoughts enough his mind becomes possessed by those thoughts and he does crazy things like shooting up lots of people in schools or movie theaters. Have you ever seen a devil?
My contention is that since the battle ground is the mind what do you really contend with? Thoughts-they eventually wind up as words and actions.

I realize not everyone will agree but it sure is strange that we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. I have had the opportunity to see someone tormented to tears and under the unction of the Holy Ghost could see it as a gang of thoughts. Just told it to cease and leave them alone and as fast as you could rebuke it watch them change to peaceful and happy. You can call them devils or evil spirits if you will but the Lord is also spirit. Evil thoughts have power and so do good thoughts both can manifest. Years ago God gave me a poem "Delivered One Thought At A Time".

They say Lucifer was an angel and he rebelled etc. etc. etc. and took a 1/3 of the angels with him etc. The bible says a THIRD PART of The ANGELS. I believe that THIRD PART being the soul or mind from a heavenly estate of fellowship to a fallen state of broken fellowship. If I am wrong I believe God can straighten me out but that eliminated that big bad devil concept. Jesus cast out devils with his word and his word is light or understanding just the opposite is darkness and ignorance.

I still love you all and believe all to be reconciled In Christ at some time.

[sheila]

 I think He created a negative contrast....artificial intelligence..to serve as a tool for teaching.I think He programmed everything that He is

not..into it.   Instinct is a pre-programmed 'intelligent' behaviour...that supercedes any 'reasoning' ability.


   satan first thought he was like God[=]..but just had a 'different' nature[nothing born of God sins] when he rebelled in the heavens

he became known as the great dragon...when he took the body of the serpent in the garden he became known as the original serpent,

when he began possessing the animals[and their nature became devouring and preying on other's]..he became known as the beast

[now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field]  and finally..when he began influencing men's flesh into rebellion and sin

he was named 'man of sin' 'man of lawlessness'" son of perdition"..until finally..we know he is but a robot type/tool/droid.


   God has been 'cutting him down to size.".little by little/step by step.

   in these times men can understand artificial intelligence/robotic/non-living entities.

...if your computor get's a 'virus' it will not obey your commands/instructions...people's flesh is 'sin sick'  corrupted ...

   our flesh reacts to both positive and negative influence..like a machine that can run on ac or dc current.

     my  :2c:

     ps...every thought that a man has..comes from one of two sources...God's spirit or the evil contrast's.  if a man keeps

entertaining the wicked contrasts input..and agree's with it[can two walk togather without agreeing?] it then is in the heart position

which leads to the 'acting' out of it.  Just as God causes us to will and do His good pleasure..the wicked contrast imitates.


     I know that spirit's have power to place thoughts in the mind/both good/evil..depending on the source.

....so...do you believe Jesus put the mind of the man with 'legion' into the heard of pigs?

   

[GodIsLove]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html

Some interesting articles at the above web site, with biblical evidence to support:
Satan was created by God to be the slanderer from the beginning. He did not "fall."
Satan tempts humans, sifts believers.
God created everything, and that must include evil.
God created evil so we could know what good is by contrast.
He also created evil so that he could show his love (Christ on the cross, forgiveness).
Evil is a teaching tool that will cease to exist  when God is all in all.

[Horan]

God created everything, and that must include evil.
God created evil so we could know what good is by contrast.
He also created evil so that he could show his love (Christ on the cross, forgiveness).
Evil is a teaching tool that will cease to exist when God is all in all.

I suggest that evil is not a thing and thus God, who created everything, needn't be said to have created evil. He created man and apparently endowed him with the power of choice and thus a capacity for disobedience. Does this mean that God created disobedience itself? Is disobedience a thing?  If a friend invites me down to New York, it's simply a practical necessity that I must leave Boston to go there, since I can't literally be in both places at once, which isn't any sort of "thing", but an unavoidable fact. This isn't such a good analogy except that it demonstrates that there are certain natural, logical consequences that ensue from doing anything, practical necessities involved with making choices and acting upon them. Perhaps there are natural consequences, practical necessities which ensue from God having created man in His own image, without having cloned Himself, which I presume is impossible, perhaps even for God. God knows! I doubt very much this explains why there is evil. How can we even presume to begin to understand such a thing when we don't even know what God is? God is a spirit? What is that? Is it conceivable that there may be limits to what we're capable of conceiving?

But there's clearly a great danger in claiming that God is the author of evil, since we are to abhor evil and cling to what's good, which is God. Making God evil's creator is simply man creating an excuse for allowing it to flourish, and who's idea might that be? Well, it's very much in step with the new age, where it's all good. Watch out! It's not our place to decide for ourselves what's good and what isn't, but to take our counsel from God, and think and act accordingly.

[Dandelion]

In my schemata, up to today, anyway, God did not create evil. I tend to agree with Horan, at least on most of the points.

God created choice, or free will, if you like, to make choices within the scope He has given us. There is God's will, and then there is everything else, which is not God's will. When Adam and Eve walked in the Garden, with God, before the fall, they spoke with God and knew very clearly His will, for them.  His will was all they did, or wanted to do. But, when they ate of the tree of Good and Evil, they knew of other possibilities. Goodness, is really just another name for His will, regarding humans and our behaviors. The fact that mankind chose to eat of this tree, was, of course, no surprise to God. It was the only thing that God wanted to protect us from and to warn us against, but, of course He knew what would happen. We are made in God's image, and our search for knowledge and our curiosity would bring us to the tree. And, He knew there would be temptation waiting for us there.

I believe He had to offer us the possibility of not obeying Him, or we would have been slaves; robots; creatures without the ability to choose Him, because we wanted to.

If we could never choose God, then we would never know we loved Him. So, I believe He allows evil to exist, but does not create it. It is the natural outcome of there being choice and of the need for this choice.  I believe if God could have avoided there being evil, He would have. He did not want to see His only son suffer and die; He did not want us to struggle as we do and have to go through such horrors here on earth, but He knew it was the only road to this:

It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'" Romans 14:11

He knew that one day, He would have all His children, all willfully His, all joyfully praising His Holy Name. No more doubts, no more apples we shouldn't eat, no more tears.

A beautiful story......isn't it?

D.             :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

It is milk to say that evil can not come from God.

It is strong meat to look up "evil" in a good concordance, and see all the times God did evil, or repented of the evil He had intended to do.  He even states plainly in the Scriptures that He made evil, but I can't find the book/chapter/verse.  Evil is a teaching tool, just like Paul wrote about - we are raised with admonitions and the rod of correction, and it is unpleasant at the time, but produces much fruit in us.

EDIT:  I was reading in Isaiah after posting the above, and there it was:  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (45:7)

[guest5685]

Sheila- I believe the thoughts cast out of Legion wanted to go to the swine (religious folks) not actual pigs. It was only there they could inflict torment as going to the un-religious would be a waste of time. The un-religious wouldn't be tormented by thoughts of legalism as was Legion. He dwelt among the TOMBS the dead churches of legalism. The un-religious cannot be bothered by religious bondages since they don't care. My opinion!

Thoughts like to seek their own kind.

Now I'll let it rest at that and if others choose to add to the conversation feel welcome but I can only walk by the understandings given to me. I'm not saying I know it all but I think the allegories in the bible are many times just that and not actual events. Legion I see as the many legalistic thoughts and the cutting himself with stones represents the legalistic teachings bringing the individual torment through condemnation of the law. I believe the reason he ended up in his right mind is because Jesus shared with him the message of God's love and grace and mercy.

[Horan]

Sheila- I believe the thoughts cast out of Legion wanted to go to the swine (religious folks) not actual pigs. It was only there they could inflict torment as going to the un-religious would be a waste of time. The un-religious wouldn't be tormented by thoughts of legalism as was Legion. He dwelt among the TOMBS the dead churches of legalism. The un-religious cannot be bothered by religious bondages since they don't care. My opinion!

Thoughts like to seek their own kind.

Now I'll let it rest at that and if others choose to add to the conversation feel welcome but I can only walk by the understandings given to me. I'm not saying I know it all but I think the allegories in the bible are many times just that and not actual events. Legion I see as the many legalistic thoughts and the cutting himself with stones represents the legalistic teachings bringing the individual torment through condemnation of the law. I believe the reason he ended up in his right mind is because Jesus shared with him the message of God's love and grace and mercy.

My God, the acts of the apostles certainly aren't allegories, much less those of Jesus. Must you invent your own Christianity? Jesus didn't share any message with those two possessed! Read it. He simply commanded the demons to leave!

[Horan]

It is milk to say that evil can not come from God.

It is strong meat to look up "evil" in a good concordance, and see all the times God did evil, or repented of the evil He had intended to do.  He even states plainly in the Scriptures that He made evil, but I can't find the book/chapter/verse.  Evil is a teaching tool, just like Paul wrote about - we are raised with admonitions and the rod of correction, and it is unpleasant at the time, but produces much fruit in us.

EDIT:  I was reading in Isaiah after posting the above, and there it was:  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (45:7)

Can't you see and understand the terrible danger, and tremendous harm in this doctrine you're promoting? It's a work of Satan to say that God in anywise approves of his activities. There are too many things much too hideous to speak of which must be granted legitimacy if one accepts that God is the author of evil. This simply cannot be a point of discussion, unless we have no shame. That quote from Isaiah has a particular context, where the Lord is speaking of Cyrus, the Persian king whom He has commissioned to conquer Babylon. The Hebrew word, rah, raw-aw, translated into English as 'evil' has a great number of nuances, so context is very important.  In this instance it's contrasted with peace, which the Lord is bringing to an end for the time being. For goodness sake, even today there are little children being stolen from their homes and sold into slavery as sex objects. We cannot say that God is the author of this, even if He has accepted ultimate responsibility, which He has certainly done through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ.

I didn't realize that this is a New Age, it's all good type of forum. I can't participate in such a thing.

[Dandelion]

I was reading some comments about that passage, Lazarus.

What I found seems to say that it means things like natural disasters, such as earthquakes, and the like. Calamities, one interpretation says. Maybe some other situations, but not evil in the context of making something that would likened to how we perceive the devil, and so on.

My  :2c:

D.

[jabcat]

It is milk to say that evil can not come from God.

It is strong meat to look up "evil" in a good concordance, and see all the times God did evil, or repented of the evil He had intended to do.  He even states plainly in the Scriptures that He made evil, but I can't find the book/chapter/verse.  Evil is a teaching tool, just like Paul wrote about - we are raised with admonitions and the rod of correction, and it is unpleasant at the time, but produces much fruit in us.

EDIT:  I was reading in Isaiah after posting the above, and there it was:  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (45:7)

Can't you see and understand the terrible danger, and tremendous harm in this doctrine you're promoting? It's a work of Satan to say that God in anywise approves of his activities. There are too many things much too hideous to speak of which must be granted legitimacy if one accepts that God is the author of evil. This simply cannot be a point of discussion, unless we have no shame. That quote from Isaiah has a particular context, where the Lord is speaking of Cyrus, the Persian king whom He has commissioned to conquer Babylon. The Hebrew word, rah, raw-aw, translated into English as 'evil' has a great number of nuances, so context is very important.  In this instance it's contrasted with peace, which the Lord is bringing to an end for the time being. For goodness sake, even today there are little children being stolen from their homes and sold into slavery as sex objects. We cannot say that God is the author of this, even if He has accepted ultimate responsibility, which He has certainly done through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ.

I didn't realize that this is a New Age, it's all good type of forum. I can't participate in such a thing.

This isn't a new age "it's all good type of forum".  This is actually a pretty conservative, and definitely scripturally-based forum.  It IS a discussion forum, and within proscribed boundaries, people have room to voice their own understandings of the scriptures.  Opportunity is provided to learn and grow together, as we attempt to show "better" understandings to each other - stated as "I believe", "as I understand", etc. 

Hello,

But I can't write my own Bible to suit myself, so I've wanted to find a forum where it's possible to explore matters of this nature in an open-minded way.
Best,
Mark

:thumbsup:

[sheila]

.....I suggest a reading of the book of Job..it depicts God's dealing with satan[epitomy of evil]   they comforted him and consoled

  him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him.

     The counselors[false-comfortors]  mouthed many correct and often beautiful creedal statements,but without living knowledge

  of the God they claimed to honour. Even worse,their spiritual arrogance caused them to claim knowledge they did not possess...

   THEY PRESUMED TO KNOW WHY JOB WAS SUFFERING.

   the cosmic contest with the accusor is now over and Job is restored[satan thrown out of heaven]  No longer is there a reason

for Job to expierence suffering.   God does not allow us to suffer for no reason...and even though the reason may be hidden

in the mystery of His divine purpose[Isaaih 55;8,9]-never for us to know in this life, we must trust in Him as the God

who does only what is right.

....and may I add...there was purpose in Jesus suffering.

  ..now..a lot of people are angry that God has allowed such suffering[evil]

[Horan]

It is milk to say that evil can not come from God.

It is strong meat to look up "evil" in a good concordance, and see all the times God did evil, or repented of the evil He had intended to do.  He even states plainly in the Scriptures that He made evil, but I can't find the book/chapter/verse.  Evil is a teaching tool, just like Paul wrote about - we are raised with admonitions and the rod of correction, and it is unpleasant at the time, but produces much fruit in us.

EDIT:  I was reading in Isaiah after posting the above, and there it was:  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (45:7)

Can't you see and understand the terrible danger, and tremendous harm in this doctrine you're promoting? It's a work of Satan to say that God in anywise approves of his activities. There are too many things much too hideous to speak of which must be granted legitimacy if one accepts that God is the author of evil. This simply cannot be a point of discussion, unless we have no shame. That quote from Isaiah has a particular context, where the Lord is speaking of Cyrus, the Persian king whom He has commissioned to conquer Babylon. The Hebrew word, rah, raw-aw, translated into English as 'evil' has a great number of nuances, so context is very important.  In this instance it's contrasted with peace, which the Lord is bringing to an end for the time being. For goodness sake, even today there are little children being stolen from their homes and sold into slavery as sex objects. We cannot say that God is the author of this, even if He has accepted ultimate responsibility, which He has certainly done through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ.

I didn't realize that this is a New Age, it's all good type of forum. I can't participate in such a thing.

This isn't a new age "it's all good type of forum".  This is actually a pretty conservative, and definitely scripturally-based forum.  It IS a discussion forum, and within proscribed boundaries, people have room to voice their own understandings of the scriptures.  Opportunity is provided to learn and grow together, as we attempt to show "better" understandings to each other - stated as "I believe", "as I understand", etc. 

Hello,

But I can't write my own Bible to suit myself, so I've wanted to find a forum where it's possible to explore matters of this nature in an open-minded way.
Best,
Mark

Jabcat, you've quoted me out of context. I had introduced myself as one interested in resolving, on a scriptural basis, the issue of damnation and eternal suffering vs universal reconciliation, which I had assumed this forum was largely about. And this is a complicated issue, with much tradition and history claiming veracity for the former, and little support for the latter.  And I have been quite prepared to bring an open mind to that discussion. I must even be prepared to accept, if necessary, that not all will be saved, since there's scriptural evidence that even that can be understood as merciful. even though I currently think there are problems with it. But I don't need to accept that God is the author of evil. That is definitely a New Age concept, and easily three people in this thread have expressed their support of it, even claiming that it's milk (weak) to claim He didn't create evil, and meat (strong) to accept that He did. If I seem harsh, I assure you it's because I had every intention of being perceived that way. There are some things with which I don't need to compromise, with which indeed I had better not. Now God bless you. I shall be on my way.