The Apostle's Faith

[Aerex]

I apologize if this is not the correct place to put this thread but I have a question about the apostle's faith. Is it safe to assume that the disciples would still believe in Jesus if they saw no miracles including his resurrection? If not why does God expect us to have the same level of faith when we never seen Jesus.

Jesus said more blessed are those who have believed but have not seen. Do these words have any grounds on what I gave said?

[ed]

I apologize if this is not the correct place to put this thread but I have a question about the apostle's faith. Is it safe to assume that the disciples would still believe in Jesus if they saw no miracles including his resurrection?

I would say it is not safe to assume the apostle's would  have believed without seeing miracles. 

Could they have possibly not believed while seeing the miracles is maybe a better question.  Judas believed but fell short of obedience.

They had the same potential for following and deciding to not follow as we have.  They had the same potential for being in error as we have. 

If not why does God expect us to have the same level of faith when we never seen Jesus.

Because faith is what brings us to the point of seeing.  Faith is something that grows and changes.  Faith comes by hearing, and faith grows by proving what we have heard in daily practice.

Jesus said more blessed are those who have believed but have not seen. Do these words have any grounds on what I have said?

I think it does.  Without looking at the exact reference I would ask, who is Jesus talking to?  What is the purpose of the statement?  Jesus Christ is reported to us through them.
Their witness is where our faith in Jesus Christ begins.  What if there were no witnesses? 

The apostle Paul did not witness the miracles, but he heard the testimony of the apostles, and still did not believe, until one day Jesus dramatically made Himself known to Paul.  It took years after that for Paul to have the faith to do what Paul was reported as doing.

How does Jesus Christ make himself known to us now?  For most of us it is far less dramatic that Paul's conversion.  We hear and believe.  What happens after our first event of faith depends much on what we do with what we have heard.

Is your faith in men or in God?  Do you trust anyone to teach you, other then the working of Christ in you?  Experience has taught me to not trust the teachings of men, over the work of Christ inside, but I still need others.  We seem to need to depend on communion with other believers in order to not shipwreck our faith. 

Good question, it will be interesting to see where it goes.

:Peace2:

[Psalm91:4]

I guess I differ that they had the same potential to believe or not.....and one of Micah`s favorite words comes to mind ,  "remnant."

Also John 17...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=YLT

The Father specifically gave these men to Jesus out of the world and they believed He came out of God and was sent here.

Others who saw miracles too...same as they did, went so far as to blaspheme His holy Spirit doing the works. 
But the disciples had it revealed to them by the Father...Who Jesus was.  And they received Him.

Rather quick obedience to His call to "Come, follow Me"  which occurred at the start of His public ministry when He was putting together the team that Father had given Him.

[rosered]

  well said ed . and Psalms 91
 

   Giving up is not an option ,   once the Lord has taken ahold of you , but  no one can help you, " till you know you need Gods help" , and He will do it .

Here is the testimony of Paul towards the apostles   and their  faith  , I find this said much better than   I ever could .
I have not faced the same kind of death  , they were  facing  regularly in their mortal bodies    to get the WORD OF GOD out   to all the ends of the earth .


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians++4&version=EXB
peace

[Tom]

The Jewish people wanted to see signs, but we have faith without seeing signs.

"For since, in fact, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom knew not God, God delights, through the stupidity of the heralding, to save those who are believing, since, in fact, Jews signs are requesting, and Greeks wisdom are seeking, yet we are heralding Christ crucified, to Jews, indeed, a snare, yet to the nations stupidity, yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God, for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Corinthians 1:21-25)

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed." (Hebrews 11:1)

"Now Thomas, one of the twelve, termed Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples, then, said to him, "We have seen the Lord!" Yet he said to them, "Should I not perceive in His hands the print of the nails, and thrust my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will by no means be believing." And after eight days His disciples were again within, and Thomas was with them. The doors having been locked, Jesus is coming and stood in the midst and said, "Peace to you!" Thereafter He is saying to Thomas, "Bring your finger here and perceive My hands, and bring your hand and thrust it into My side, and do not become unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Now Jesus is saying to him, "Seeing that you have seen Me, you have believed. Happy are those who are not perceiving and believe."" (John 20:24-29)

[Psalm91:4]

That's why we've got to stick together and not be like Thomas who was out and about apart from the others when Jesus showed up!    :banana:

[Tom]

"by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7)

[Aerex]

How does Jesus Christ make himself known to us now?  For most of us it is far less dramatic that Paul's conversion.  We hear and believe.  What happens after our first event of faith depends much on what we do with what we have heard.

Is your faith in men or in God?  Do you trust anyone to teach you, other then the working of Christ in you?  Experience has taught me to not trust the teachings of men, over the work of Christ inside, but I still need others.  We seem to need to depend on communion with other believers in order to not shipwreck our faith. 

It sounds to me that faith depends on us. Unless I am hearing this wrong. If this is the case then how am I expected to trust God if God himself is trusting faith onto me. Isnt it a contradiction to say we should not have faith in men but depend on them? It is very hard to have faith in someone you cannot see but I guess you can have faith in someone's character. 

[Tom]

"In grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

[Dandelion]

I apologize if this is not the correct place to put this thread but I have a question about the apostle's faith. Is it safe to assume that the disciples would still believe in Jesus if they saw no miracles including his resurrection? If not why does God expect us to have the same level of faith when we never seen Jesus.

Jesus said more blessed are those who have believed but have not seen. Do these words have any grounds on what I gave said?

Just some verses to consider:

...16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."... Romans 10:16 -18

...7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." 9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.... Acts 1: 7 - 9

...25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14: 25 - 26

Romans 15:13Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

13 and the God of the hope shall fill you with all joy and peace in the believing, for your abounding in the hope in power of the Holy Spirit.


1 Thessalonians 1:5Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

5 because our good news did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance, even as ye have known of what sort we became among you because of you,

:2c:

[lastpost]

All is not revealed now because this is the time of faith.

Now is the time of faith and not the time of certainty,
For if now was the time of certainty instead of the time of faith,
Then, when the time for certainty comes,
The soul would grieve and feel robbed,
For it would see the blessings and power that faith could have brought it,
But which then are absent because certainty came before faith.

It is far better that the time for faith comes first,
Then it is faith that makes the certainty,
It is the light that rules darkness out of existence for ever more,
It is the joy which burns up sorrow,
Because it is the joy which is of God.

"...Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"  JESUS CHRIST

[micah7:9]

Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."

[eaglesway]

Justification is by grace through faith. Sanctification is by the obedience of faith, enabled by the Spirit of grace. Vivification is by the resurection power of Jesus Christ within us, regardless of whether it is in one as a seed, another as a sapling, another as an oak of righteousness- they will all be vivified because of the resurrection power that was planted in them by grace through faith.


2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.


Discipleship is by following, yielding, hearing with faith and being empowered by the Spirit

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

[micah7:9]

The faith of the Apostles, the faith of disciples, the faith of believers, and my faith is in the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. At least that is how I understand THE Faith. :2c: and happy to put it in my  :2c:. :dsunny: I rest.

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup:

Faith hope love is what matters.

1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Jesus or Lord Savour and Master of ALL  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

I agree. I also think faith and hope are the empowering agents of love.

[joeteekay]

and not only is it our faith in Him, but more importantly is His faith in our inner most being. Praise Him.  Mountains, heaven and Earth and all creation. Rejoice.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[eaglesway]

It seems to me that even the very mention of the word obdience throws many folks into a tizzy, but obedience and the law are not synonymous.

Love motivates an obedience centered in compassion. "I only do those things I hear from My Father"

Law motivates an obedience centered in fear.

The obedience of faith that Paul spoke of, is centered in the two great commandments, "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength- and love your neighbor as yourself."

Paul opens his epistle to the Romans with the obedience of faith....

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


and closes it with the same words....

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Paul is most certainly not talking about works salvation here. he is talking about the fruit the gospel produces in those who receive it......which is, most definitely, faith, hope and love.

[eaglesway]

Aerex, I believe the apostles began to follow Jesus before they saw any miracles. he was walking down the beach and said, "Come, follow me"- and they through down their nets and followed Him.

I look at the miracles of Christ as spontaneous manifestations of His love, and confirmation of His words.

"And the Lord worked with them, confirming the word with signs and wonders."

I think the reason we do not see more signs and wonders is because the word we speak has driftd so far from His. So He won't confirm it- but that is just one man's opinion.

The words they spoke were secondary to the love they had among themselves. That love they lived in was the real "word".

"And they were all as one soul and great grace was upon them all and no one among them had any need".....

[Dandelion]

Aerex, I believe the apostles began to follow Jesus before they saw any miracles. he was walking down the beach and said, "Come, follow me"- and they through down their nets and followed Him.

I look at the miracles of Christ as spontaneous manifestations of His love, and confirmation of His words.

"And the Lord worked with them, confirming the word with signs and wonders."

I think the reason we do not see more signs and wonders is because the word we speak has driftd so far from His. So He won't confirm it- but that is just one man's opinion.

The words they spoke were secondary to the love they had among themselves. That love they lived in was the real "word".

"And they were all as one soul and great grace was upon them all and no one among them had any need".....

Whow..... "That love they lived was the real 'word'." Very powerful.

...34"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."  John 13:34 -35     :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

Amen!  :banana:

[ed]

It sounds to me that faith depends on us.

At the end of the day it is you and what you believe(faith).

At the beginning of the day it is you and what you believe(faith).

For me faith is a choice every day, and the outcome is normally peace, that is the worth of faith. I go through the day knowing that God is with me, in my every action and interaction,  that is omnipresence.

If this is the case then how am I expected to trust God if God himself is trusting faith onto me.

How can you trust anyone?  How do you know that what you have been taught by your parents, schooling, society is true?  Why do you choose to believe that the things that you have been taught are true?

Isnt it a contradiction to say we should not have faith in men but depend on them?

Yes, I see the contradiction.  I test everything by a pretty simple standard that I have become comfortable with.  It is a simple basic verse in scripture, "Faith, hope, and love, these three, but the greatest of these is love".  Things that push me toward love are worthy of faith.

Another verse says "Faith works by love".

With love as the standard, you can not go wrong.  There are many, many doctrines that I table for future consideration because I just don't know.  I have many personal beliefs that would shock the congregation here, so I pretty much keep them to myself except for a select few, who can endure them.

It is very hard to have faith in someone you cannot see but I guess you can have faith in someone's character.

Faith is in you, do you have faith in yourself?  Can you see you?  Not the guy in the mirror, the inner you, the you of your mind.  You are making choices every day the character that you want to be.  Faith in God and Christ is a belief that we have a helper who resides in us to help us with our life, faith, and choices........again, omnipresence.

[rosered]

  The labour of love   in the apostles   was planting the  seeds of faith  in the hearts of mankind   ready to receive    Christ ,

  some water that is the  voices of many waters      and  God by His own Holy Spirit giving the increase  , more believers and more   understanding     

  the seed is Christ    Gal 3   

15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations:

even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.



16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.


He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.



17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later,


does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise....


  For me the  only seed   is Christ and it  means anointed     , Only God can anoint          smear the Holy Oil upon the  Holy seed     and keep the fire  and Light of

God shining in the darkest of places    , the human heart


  I believe the HOLY SPIRIT    gets stifled      by the human reasoning  and put out   , that is not a good thing

to much   ''thinking ''   does not allow the faith   to sprout  a new and tender  shoot of life srining up inside you

sometimes you just have to wait on the Lord   for results     

How many beautiful shoots have been crushed   by the hands and powers of brutish mankind ?

How we handle the word of Life has a lot   to do with your own very character    and nature  of what is operating inside of you 

If Love and that means caring and sharing   generosity from the very own treasures of  whats in your heart placed by God himself  as increased     faith  works  being  living works   from Gods own word  of truth and Spirit of Life  , poor in the world but rich in faith      them works

  we  really are  very much deceiving our own selves     
and   any   other   agenda is  considered        dead works       to be burned up   and useless   to anyone

How we handle the WORD OF LIFE     is proof of Love   for God and our fellow man  or the lack thereof ...

Love will be and always was the only thing that ever mattered     in this life or the one to come   

Its too simple for some to    understand,  wanting   badly to make it  complicated and with many  stipulations      and rules

But this is something between you and God alone     that you and your alone are   accountable   for   


and how you  and you alone handle the word of Life   as something precious   and beautiful   ,or  something you   use with no regard     as to whom you hurt with it   or injure     or offend   or turn away   and mostly considering the LORD   HIMSELF and how He  suffers for your sake and long patient and kind towards you    , abuse of the grace of God    bearing you up always ..

Sometimes you just have to stop and take assessment  of where you are at and what you are doing   and see if you are pleasing in Gods sight   

Our praises are of God and not in men     , men will  come to Christ if you   do  keep  the Lord in mind at all times  and ways and  the planted '' seed of Christ  '' the the ready  soil    , for me its the good earth ,  the meek inherit    waiting to receive Christ into themselves     Matt 5 



   

[Abigail]

Sometimes 'faith' can become a stressful word, that is, as I feel it's a condition or a work.
When I get tight about this, it helps me to bring it back to just trusting. There is in a sense no 'levels' in trusting. Trusting is not a work. Trusting cannot be forced on someone or required from someone. You just trust or you don't. When I distrust, I cry out to God to win my trust.
I found it also relieving to see a lot of scriptures that seem to be conditional (requiring our faith in Jesus) actually talk about the faith OF Jesus, as Micah has stated. The moment I see I don't have to bring up my own  :2c: it sets me free to become more childish and just trust. When I'm trying to 'have faith' I just get stuck.

[Dandelion]

Many beautiful and godly thoughts are coming through, here.

To me faith is letting go, and allowing God to come in. It is being willing to live life on the edge....knowing that God will always catch us. We live on the edge, not because we are reckless, but because we know that the cautious life is not the life the disciples lived.....when Peter stepped out of that boat, to walk on the water, he was letting go....of his fears; of his belief in what he saw and knew intellectually; even of valuing his own life more than he valued God's Word. And that, is where, I believe, we all need to be.

...28Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." 29And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!"... Matthew 14: 28 - 30

Let's not forget this parable, about faith:

The Parable of the Sower

1Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. 2He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3"Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times."

9Then Jesus said, "Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."

10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,

" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'a "
13Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown."

Mark 4: 1 - 20

We must hold on to our faith....because without faith, hope, and love, we are lost in this fallen world. 

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

:2c: