Tentmaker Forum

This topic split from "Please Pray for President Obama" - James

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 22, 2009, 08:18:25 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 22, 2009, 08:13:09 PM
When the muslims see Jesus, they will fall in love, just like everybody else does who sees him.

When you see Christ in every person, then you will understand the love of God.  How can the Muslims see Jesus in you if you hate them?

Christ in you, your hope of glory.....

Anne

Who says I hate them?  I don't hate them.

And, the fact that I don't hate them is proof of the living God, since if anyone had a reason to hate them it would be me.

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 22, 2009, 08:22:45 PM
Rose,

I'm tired of excuses given by professing Christians for spreading hatred in the world.   
How can any person even be alive and breathing without the Holy Spirit?  They cannot. 
We were reconciled to God BEFORE WE KNEW OF HIS LOVE, so is everyone else. 
It is high time people believed that.  Salvation is by GRACE, not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Anne

Who is spreading hate?  You are seeing things that do not exist, like racism, hate, and fear around every corner.

I don't see anyone here spreading hate.

Quote from: natcat86 on November 22, 2009, 08:26:13 PM
I think Yoda said it best....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yY3m9RWMNA

Amen. It's so true.

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 22, 2009, 07:48:15 PM
Well, Cardinal,

If the Christians are going to demand that the Muslims convert, and the Muslims, who obviously believe there is only One Most High God are going to demand that the Christians convert, and the Jews believe that they are the chosen ones, then I guess we are all going to have to kill one another.  It sure looks like it.  Blessed are those who are not afraid of death.

I'm not saying we should press the red button and launch all ICBMs and nuke all islam countries.
But OTOH I also see God in the OT raise/support armies to slay enemies instead of hug them....

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2009, 08:55:07 PM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 22, 2009, 07:48:15 PM
Well, Cardinal,

If the Christians are going to demand that the Muslims convert, and the Muslims, who obviously believe there is only One Most High God are going to demand that the Christians convert, and the Jews believe that they are the chosen ones, then I guess we are all going to have to kill one another.  It sure looks like it.  Blessed are those who are not afraid of death.

I'm not saying we should press the red button and launch all ICBMs and nuke all islam countries.
But OTOH I also see God in the OT raise/support armies to slay enemies instead of hug them....

That was before Jesus came, though.
That was the OLD testament.

Evil isn't overcome with more evil.
Hey, I don't have all the answers, but to me, when we harm others, that only gives them MORE reason to CLING to hatred.
just my opinion.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2009, 07:34:35 PM
:cloud9: I have read some excerpts out of it, and it is definitely not holy, not HS inspired. Just it's inception, which I read about from a PRO Muslim source is enough to show it was not from God.

An angel appeared to him in a cave, with a banner, with the words on it and told him to write them down. Three times he failed to do this, and three times the angel hit him for his disobedience, before Muhammad mentioned to the "angel" he was illiterate. Seems to me an angel of God would have been instructed differently, assuming of course, there was an angel to begin with.

I also read that one of his underage forced child brides said something to the effect of, "I see you have found a religion to accommodate your sin," ie. child molestation and rape.

Muhammad was aware of Jesus being taken from them in a cloud, and therefore he too "ascended" into heaven from Jerusalem. Seems he forgot the part about flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That he and his doctrine of devils is a usurper and counterfeit, should be obvious.

And I don't hate them; if I hated them I would relegate them to remain in ignorance of the Word of the one true God and His Son who died for them as well. If I hated them, I could espouse a false love, ie. the "mantra chant" of the New Age, which is that all paths lead to God, sort of a "I'm Ok, you're Ok", type of doctrine that eliminates the need for the righteousness of the Son.

God is forgiving of our ignorance in trying other paths, but the baptism of John in water, was for REPENTANCE from dead works (other paths), which is why it came before the baptism in the Spirit (where the living HG does the works), and why Jesus told John that it was necessary to fulfill ALL righteousness.

As for laying my life down; anyone that continues in the Word and exchanges what THEY think, for what HE thinks, is laying down their soulish lives, little by little. What I hate about it, is that it takes so long. Many times I have asked Him to just "kill" me now, ie. deliver me of all the tares at once and get it over with, if it meant HE could come in full power and get things here straightened out.

One of the times I did that, He told me He couldn't do that, because if He took everything out of us that was not of Him (in all of us) all at once, we would DIE from the shock of it (don't remove the tares until it's time or you will hurt the wheat?). So plodding along here.........day by day...........Blessings.....

That's pretty much the way I see it too Card.  I just heard on the radio yesterday that a current big thrust in "missions" is to sort of assimilate Christianity with Islam, beginning to use some of the same jargon, calling God Allah, etc.
The heathen and God-haters aren't converted by patting them on the head and telling them they're OK.  IMO, the equation coming from us/THROUGH us from the Father is love AND truth - not compromise.
 
No man comes to the Father but through Yesu.  John 14:6.

Quote from: jabcat on November 22, 2009, 09:20:20 PMI just heard on the radio yesterday that a current big thrust in "missions" is to sort of assimilate Christianity with Islam, beginning to use some of the same jargon, calling God Allah, etc.

I heard that over 2-3 years ago from a retired cardinal or bishop.
If I had to assign a Christian name to allah it would start with "s" or "d".
The same jargon started centuries ago. Even before islam. But that's something for PM because I think it's a bit outside the forum guidelines...

do it, i'm curious.

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 22, 2009, 08:18:25 PM

When you see Christ in every person, then you will understand the love of God.  How can the Muslims see Jesus in you if you hate them?

Christ in you, your hope of glory.....

Anne

Dang, VERY well said, Anne - Sparrow too!  You guys are, indeed, my favorite Liberals!  I admit that I see dimly, but not dimly enough to ignore the obvious core message of Jesus - Understanding God's Love.  If our attitudes are not motivated by Love then they are not of God.

The problem boils down to each religion's version of Absolute Truth.  Orthodox Christianity is no worse (nor better) than the rest.  But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right? :thumbdown: :sigh:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion!"
Steven Weinberg (1933 - )

BTW, I still Pray FOR Obama and our Leaders as I have for all since I became a believer.  I ask that God's Spirit will guide them in all wisdom.  Frankly, I have not seen many obvious answers to my prayers in this regard yet I'm not clairvoyant enough to make these judgments as of now.  Time will tell, I suppose. :dontknow:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jfraysseThe problem boils down to each religion's version of Absolute Truth.  Orthodox Christianity is no worse (nor better) than the rest.  But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.

It doesn't have to be that way.  Where in the New Testament does Jesus say hate your enemies? Or kill your enemies?  Or kill your perceived enemies?

Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus even lift a finger against anyone [except in the Temple, and people could get out of his way there].

He stands there and lets the High Priest slap him across the face without retaliation.

If people would just read their Bibles, we wouldn't have these gross misperceptions, which are fed to us by wolves in sheep's clothing.

Yes, Miss Molly, I agree.  :thumbsup: Jesus never demonstrated retribution, in fact, quite the opposite, that is, unconditional forgiveness! Praying for the forgiveness of those who mocked Him, beat and whipped Him and nailed His feet and hands to the cross, if THIS is not Love, then I do not know what is.  Jesus shows us the true nature of our Heavenly Father.  The Life exemplified by Jesus and His Teachings are not the problem.  It's the others things that I listed in the context of Absolute Truth. :thumbdown: :sigh:

Quote from: jfraysse on November 22, 2009, 10:56:10 PM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 22, 2009, 08:18:25 PM

When you see Christ in every person, then you will understand the love of God.  How can the Muslims see Jesus in you if you hate them?

Christ in you, your hope of glory.....

Anne

Dang, VERY well said, Anne - Sparrow too!  You guys are, indeed, my favorite Liberals!  I admit that I see dimly, but not dimly enough to ignore the obvious core message of Jesus - Understanding God's Love.  If our attitudes are not motivated by Love then they are not of God.

The problem boils down to each religion's version of Absolute Truth.  Orthodox Christianity is no worse (nor better) than the rest.  But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right? :thumbdown: :sigh:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion!"
Steven Weinberg (1933 - )

BTW, I still Pray FOR Obama and our Leaders as I have for all since I became a believer.  I ask that God's Spirit will guide them in all wisdom.  Frankly, I have not seen many obvious answers to my prayers in this regard yet I'm not clairvoyant enough to make these judgments as of now.  Time will tell, I suppose. :dontknow:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Amen to the bolded John! As for the rest of your post, I agree with absolutely everything you just said 100%. :HeartThrob:


oh,  p.s. I'm not a liberal... :grin: I'm more of an "independent", if anything.

Quote from: sparrow on November 23, 2009, 12:15:23 AMoh,  p.s. I'm not a liberal... :grin: I'm more of an "independent", if anything.

Even if you use fine print I see you are telling lies mrs tweetie...
You are dependant on Father -> healthcare is eat something from the tree

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 23, 2009, 12:22:05 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 23, 2009, 12:15:23 AMoh,  p.s. I'm not a liberal... :grin: I'm more of an "independent", if anything.

Even if you use fine print I see you are telling lies mrs tweetie...
You are dependant on Father -> healthcare is eat something from the tree

:laughing7:   :icon_flower:

Quote from: jfraysse on November 22, 2009, 10:56:10 PM
But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right? :thumbdown:

:cloud9: Actually, that's exactly what He intended (minus the killing of course). The covenantal blessings we are supposed to be walking in, are to provoke those that are the still under the letter, ie. those WITHOUT the spiritual circumcision of the heart going on, to jealousy.


     Romans 10:19 KJV
     But I say , Did not Israel know ? First Moses saith , I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
   
     Romans 11:11 KJV
     I say then , Have they stumbled that they should fall ? God forbid : but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy .

Blessings....

   He rules with a rod of iron

  when the spirit speaks it breaks our flesh like pottery


  Ezekiel 20;37

   I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will

bring you into the bond of the covenant. I will purge you of

those who revolt and rebel against me

 . Although I will bring them out of the land they are living,yet,

they will not enter the land of Israel [those who revolt and

rebel against me; THAT wicked generation in all men]  


   Rev 2;27  He will rule them with an iron sceptor,he will dash

them to peices like pottery[clay vessels] just as I have

received authority from My Father


   Rev 11;1I was given a reed like a measuring ROD and was

told,'Go and measure the temple of God and the alter and

count the worshippers there.Do not measure the outer court,

Do not measure it because it has been given to the Gentiles,

they will trample on the Holy city for 42 months


  Rev 19;15  And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that

with it He should smite the nations; and He shall rule them

with a rod of Iron. And He threadeth the winepress of the

feirceness and wrath of Almighty God


   Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven...

 for this reason the outer court of the temple is not measured

[counts for nothing] Muslim flesh american flesh,etc is as

nothing[it is uncircumcized flesh due to be cut away from all

God's spiritual children.]


 Our clay vessel is our flesh and it is due to be broken by the

rod of iron,and broken it will be by the SPIRIT OF ALMIGHTY

GOD.

 When the spirit of God speaks to a man,He listens, when the

Glory of the Lord fills the temple no man can enter.

 He comes suddenly to His temple[your body]

  He is no respector of persons, national flesh means nothing

 to Him

  Jeremiah 19  This is what the Lord says;"Go and buy a clay

jar from a potter.Take along some of the elders of the people.

and of the preists,and go out to the valley of Ben Hinnom

 NEAR THE ENTRANCE OF THE POTSHERD GATE

  'Hear the word of the Lord O"kings of Judah and people of

Jerusalem. I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will

make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. For they have

forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods.......


verse10  THEN BREAK THE JAR WHILE THOSE WHO GO WITH

YOU ARE WATCHING,and say to them I WILL SMASH THIS

NATION AND THIS CITY JUST AS THIS POTTER'S JAR IS

SMASHED AND CAN NOT BE REPAIRED.


   Th above is an example of God's mind in regard to any

fleshly nation that rejects His SON. Your flesh,my flesh

 verse 7.....and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds

[dead flesh] of the air[ demonic prince of the air] AND THE

BEASTS OF THE EARTH......I will make them eat the flesh of

their sons and daughters and they will eat one anothers flesh

[devour one another over fleshly divisons] during the stress of

the seige imposed on them by the enemies,who SEEK THEIR

LIVES


 There is no Jew or GREEK in the SPIRIT


     

Quote from: Cardinal on November 23, 2009, 12:44:13 AM

Quote from: jfraysse on November 22, 2009, 10:56:10 PM
But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right? :thumbdown:

:cloud9: Actually, that's exactly what He intended (minus the killing of course). The covenantal blessings we are supposed to be walking in, are to provoke those that are the still under the letter, ie. those WITHOUT the spiritual circumcision of the heart going on, to jealousy.


     Romans 10:19 KJV
     But I say , Did not Israel know ? First Moses saith , I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
   
     Romans 11:11 KJV
     I say then , Have they stumbled that they should fall ? God forbid : but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy .

Blessings....

Not so sure I agree with that Cardinal. That doesn't sound real loving. You think our purpose is provoking others to sin?? Jealousy is an ugly, carnal thing. I don't get what you are saying.

dp.

 :thumbsup:

 Good posting Sis   Shelia , :HeartThrob:

 God is no respecter of person .......

I agree with different aspects of various people's posts.  I do believe Spirit revealed scriptures are important, and as I said earlier, I believe it's love AND truth.  Truth in love.  

I also believe the scripture Cardinal quoted is exactly right.  Jealousy in terms of "I want that too".  It's right there that it's God's plan, the whole cutting off Israel for a season, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."

International Standard Version (©2008)
Again I ask, "Did Israel not understand?" Moses was the first to say, "I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that doesn't understand."

James.

I'm sorry but I can't go along with a teaching that says to provoke others to jealousy.

Jealousy is a very ugly thing.

I think the picture this is painting is incorrect.

Provoking others to have a keen interest about WHERE your peace is coming from, (faith in God) but NOT provoking others to jealousy. Jealousy is wrong. I don't think it's the right teaching to say that we are to provoke others to do something wrong.

Perhaps the word "jealousy" needs to be defined here before we go further.

Thank you, Sheila.  Your posts always bless me.

:gangel:
Anne

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

--Rom 11

"provoke [them] to jealousy"

G3863
παραζηλόω
parazēloō
par-ad-zay-lo'-o
From G3844 and G2206; to stimulate alongside, that is, excite to rivalry: - provoke to emulation (jealousy).


12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Quote from: sparrow on November 23, 2009, 02:06:46 AM
I'm sorry but I can't go along with a teaching that says to provoke others to jealousy.

Jealousy is a very ugly thing.

I think the picture this is painting is incorrect.

Provoking others to have a keen interest about WHERE your peace is coming from, (faith in God) but NOT provoking others to jealousy. Jealousy is wrong. I don't think it's the right teaching to say that we are to provoke others to do something wrong.

Perhaps the word "jealousy" needs to be defined here before we go further.

that's why i gave a couple different translations.  Young's (literal) translates it as jealousy, as does the Christian Bible, perhaps the most literal.  The concorant version as well, all literal to the original greek.

Merriam Websters describes jealous as;
1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness
2 : hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage
3 : vigilant in guarding a possession <new colonies were jealous of their new independence

The "softest" interpretation (and maybe the correct one  :dontknow:) I guess would be what I bolded above.  I just know the scriptures say what they say, so I believe whatever I believe needs to check out with them, not me trying to make the scriptures say what I think.  Am I ever guilty of that?  Sure.  But to my own shame and regress.

I personally think sparrow, if what you're doing is trying to reconcile that verse with many others about not being jealous, envious, etc. then that's a good thing.  The scriptures agree, not contradict, and I believe the problem is usually my own level of understanding and acceptance, and whatever degree of blindness I'm experiencing at the time.  Also though, I think of how God does use temporary evil for His purposes of eventual outcome of good.  Don't mean to open up another whole discussion on that (the whole sovereignty thing) - there are plenty other threads on that one  :laughing7:.

Anyway, blessings to you, James.

Oh yeah, the OP.  Has anybody prayed today for our president?  I don't think I have.  :mblush:   I need to do that.

Hey jab, I just have an issue with the whole idea of provoking others to jealousy.
That is something that needs to be ERADICATED from us, not nurtured.
Despite what verses say, I just can't go along with it.
In my heart, it is wrong.
It is not love.

Let people wonder and be curious about the peace in my heart, and let people wonder how I may be making it through a hard time without getting angry or resentful or full of rage. Let people wonder about my PEACE and be drawn to God's love that is INSIDE of me. But I just cannot nurture the idea of "provoking others to jealousy". Maybe this is something for others. But not for me. Jealousy is ugly.
YEARNING to have peace. YEARNING to have love. I can understand.
Jealousy is ugly resentment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because apparently I feel very strongly.
Unless someone wants to try to explain it in another way that makes sense to my heart and my spirt.

peace.

 :cloud9: Here is how jealousy is defined in the Hebrew (again for fullness of thought)......

Strong's Number:   07068     
Original Word   Word Origin
hanq   from (07065)
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Qin'ah   TWOT - 2038a
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
kin-aw'      Noun Feminine
Definition

  1. ardour, zeal, jealousy
        1. ardour, jealousy, jealous disposition (of husband)
              1. sexual passion
        2. ardour of zeal (of religious zeal)
              1. of men for God
              2. of men for the house of God
              3. of God for his people
        3. ardour of anger
              1. of men against adversaries
              2. of God against men
        4. envy (of man)
        5. jealousy (resulting in the wrath of God)

Which comes from a root word meaning.........

Strong's Number:   07065     
Original Word   Word Origin
anq   a primitive root
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Qana'   TWOT - 2038
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
kaw-naw'      Verb
Definition

  1. to envy, be jealous, be envious, be zealous
        1. (Piel)
              1. to be jealous of
              2. to be envious of
              3. to be zealous for
              4. to excite to jealous anger
        2. (Hiphil) to provoke to jealous anger, cause jealousy

Psalm 69:9  For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up ; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

:cloud9: So what He's saying here in the other two scriptures I quoted in the last post, is that He wants to provoke them to be zealous for the things of God and His Son, as are the ones they are observing as being blessed of the Lord.

It's the jealousy of a "husband" who wants His "wife" to be faithful to Him, and so makes her  zealous/jealous when "she" sees Him bestowing attention on another "woman". This is the reason for Him giving the type and shadow in Numbers 5 pertaining to the "waters of jealousy" for a potentially unfaithful wife.

God knows how to get us "where we live", doesn't He, LOL? He probably allowed the root of jealousy to be placed in everyone, just so He could use it for His purposes, in the first place. And why not? He used Satan to "disrobe" His Son of His flesh body that the glory within might be revealed in the third day.

And so He's doing it again, ie. using something of Satan to bring forth the glory of the Son in each. Kinda funny if you consider it says that the sons of God came before God and Satan was among them, ie. the wheat and the tares raised up together.

Also interesting to me is the fact that in this word series, (important because of the shared "root" of consonants) the word Cana is next which is the place of His first miracle, A WEDDING IN THE THIRD DAY. Blessings.....

Oprah didn't like that our God says he is a jealous God.  She rejected that.  Who wants a jealous God? she said.

Personally, I like the fact he is 'jealous' over me. He even names himself for the emotion he feels over us.  :bigGrin:


Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:




"jealous"

H7067
קנּא
qannâ'
kan-naw'
From H7065; jealous: - jealous. Compare H7072.



H7065
קנא
qânâ'
kaw-naw'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) zealous, that is, (in a bad sense) jealous or envious: -  (be) envy (-ious), be (move to, provoke to) jealous (-y), X very, (be) zeal (-ous).

He is jealous for me!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk  <---watch!

Oh! How He loves us!

Quote from: CardinalAlso interesting to me is the fact that in this word series, (important because of the shared "root" of consonants) the word Cana is next which is the place of His first miracle, A WEDDING IN THE THIRD DAY. Blessings.....

wow Cana, where he did his first miracle, turning water to wine.  You could spend your whole life in these words.




"Cana"
G2580
Κανᾶ
Kana
kan-ah'
Of Hebrew origin (compare [H7071]); Cana, a place in Palestine: - Cana.


H7071
קנה
qânâh
kaw-naw'
Feminine of H7070; reediness; Kanah, the name of a stream and of a place in Palestine: - Kanah.


H7070
קנה
qâneh
kaw-neh'
From H7069; a reed (as erect); by resemblance a rod (especially for measuring), shaft, tube, stem, the radius (of the arm), beam (of a steelyard): - balance, bone, branch, calamus, cane, reed, X spearman, stalk.


H7069
קנה
qânâh
kaw-naw'
A primitive root; to erect, that is, create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: - attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

 :cloud9: Amen, Beloved Servant, yes He is........and He wants us to be the same way about Him. What we're really seeing and desiring in others that are manifesting some aspect of His gifts, IS HIM. And how can we be jealous OF Him? It's a no contest; cannot possibly measure up. But we can and are provoked to be jealous OVER Him and want all that He is, also.

Love that song, too........it's the like the "praisers" leading the way into "battle" with every inch of ground we cover thru the Lord, Amen? Good posts everybody........ :thumbsup: Blessings....

Do you think he's turning our water to wine?

I'm starting to feel a little giddy... :cloud9:

Quote from: sparrow on November 23, 2009, 03:11:15 AM
Hey jab, I just have an issue with the whole idea of provoking others to jealousy.
That is something that needs to be ERADICATED from us, not nurtured.
Despite what verses say, I just can't go along with it.
In my heart, it is wrong.
It is not love.

Let people wonder and be curious about the peace in my heart, and let people wonder how I may be making it through a hard time without getting angry or resentful or full of rage. Let people wonder about my PEACE and be drawn to God's love that is INSIDE of me. But I just cannot nurture the idea of "provoking others to jealousy". Maybe this is something for others. But not for me. Jealousy is ugly.
YEARNING to have peace. YEARNING to have love. I can understand.
Jealousy is ugly resentment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because apparently I feel very strongly.
Unless someone wants to try to explain it in another way that makes sense to my heart and my spirt.

peace.

Dear sparrow, I don't believe my feelings over-ride the scriptures.  (You probably have a kinder, gentler heart than I do -you often display it.)  

I know you're not claiming perfection, but I am a very imperfect individual.   If I went with my feelings first, I would be VERY far away from God's truth and will.  I resist, disbelieve, even become angry - but I believe those are MY problems, not the scriptures or God's revealing of them, and God chastens me over those, bringing my will more in line with His.  I am very far from being there.  That's why I said I'm to be changed, not the scriptures.  And again, I believe there are ALWAYS explanations, ways the scriptures all fit together.  IMO, if I believe the accurate things, I won't have to reject ANY scripture - in that case, I'm probably just not understanding or accepting something - not yet changed, able, or willing to receive.

God will show us all eventually what we need to know.  We are in unity on many other things.  

James.

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 04:29:47 AM
Do you think he's turning our water to wine?

I'm starting to feel a little giddy... :cloud9:

:cloud9: That's EXACTLY what He is doing..........the literal letter understanding is as water (waters below the firmament); but the Spirit revelation is as the wine (firmament/heaven/place of Spirit rule and authority).

The revelation is what is building the "Ark" that is what we "get into" to escape the waters of the judgment to the flesh of man (waters below the firmament = literal letter understanding), ie. what is within is going to cover without = immortality swallowing or covering up mortality. Blessings....

...and He has saved the best — for last!

The Romans 10 and 11 verses, if interpreted as intended to provoke a fleshly response, is evil in and of itself.  It violates the response of Love to such provocation as described in 1 Cor 13.  It also violates James 3:17 as it is not First Pure and it sure looks like the provokers are taking pleasure in unrighteousness which flies in the face of 2Th:2:12.

The Fruit of Righteousness is sown in Peace of them that make Peace (James:3:18). And Jesus said that Wisdom is justified of her children. (Matt 11:19).  

Tell me what Peace or Wisdom have we seen demonstrated by provoking others and/or Nations to Jealousy?  How has this idea advanced the ministry of Christ?

Bottomline, I don't see how this behavior is Christ-Like and if this is the way I must express "Truth" then I choose to live without it.  The "truth of my faith" is best expressed by my deeds motivated by Love, not my egoistical instance on my theological correctness.

In His Love, John  :HeartThrob:

The Gentiles are not the provokers.  They are just doing their thing in Christ.

God is the provoker.  He set it up that way.

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 05:06:26 AM
The Gentiles are not the provokers.  They are just doing their thing in Christ.

God is the provoker.

I think that may be exactly right Molly, and that's helpful to my understanding.  WE are to love, share the good news.  It's God's plan, He knows how to work it.

This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2009, 05:08:59 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 05:06:26 AM
The Gentiles are not the provokers.  They are just doing their thing in Christ.

God is the provoker.

I think that may be exactly right Molly, and that's helpful to my understanding.  WE are to love, share the good news.  It's God's plan, He knows how to work it.

This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:

Think about how they persecuted him and why.

I may need you to explain your thoughts on it for me to "get it".   :mblush:  I would probably be seeing something different than what you've seen.

P.S.  I'm thinking  :happygrin:.  No snarky comments about not hurting myself.

Let's see...first off, they were blind.  It had not been given them to understand the things of the Kingdom.

This is interesting.  I think I'll go back and look for a place to split this off from RA's OP.  We're moving on out there with this  :laughing7:.

You don't think it was jealousy in its worst form?  He could do things they couldn't dream of doing.

22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

--Mark 3

Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2009, 05:08:59 AM
This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Exactly Jab.........every time I thought something didn't line up in there, it turned out to be ME that didn't line up, LOL........Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 05:19:30 AM
You don't think it was jealousy in its worst form?  He could do things they couldn't dream of doing.

22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

--Mark 3

I don't know Molly, it may be, but I've never thought of it that way.  I figured (along with blindness) that their self-righteousness "got the best of them", i.e., in their perception He kept breaking their Laws.  Why, they even picked corn on the Sabbath!  You may be very right with the jealousy piece of that as well, I'm going to have to consider what you've said.  Do you know of any (other) scriptures that illustrate their jealousy?  I've just seen it in the Israel being brought back in as Paul describes the steps in Romans - cast off, Gentiles grafted in, Israel becomes jealous [setting the stage for?] God "salvaging the root", then becoming All in All.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 23, 2009, 05:29:53 AM

Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2009, 05:08:59 AM
This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:

:cloud9: Exactly Jab.........every time I thought something didn't line up in there, it turned out to be ME that didn't line up, LOL........Blessings....

You ever see one of those little bobble head dolls?   :yes:

Quote from: jfraysse on November 23, 2009, 04:51:30 AM
The Romans 10 and 11 verses, if interrupted as intended to provoke a fleshly response, is evil in and of itself.  It violates the response of Love to such provocation as described in 1 Cor 13.  It also violates James 3:17 as it is not First Pure and it sure looks like the provokers are taking pleasure in unrighteousness which flies in the face of 2Th:2:12.

The Fruit of Righteousness is sown in Peace of them that make Peace (James:3:18). And Jesus said that Wisdom is justified of her children. (Matt 11:19). 

Tell me what Peace or Wisdom have we seen demonstrated by provoking others and/or Nations to Jealousy?  How has this idea advanced the ministry of Christ?

Bottomline, I don't see how this behavior is Christ-Like and if this is way I must express "Truth" then I choose to live without it.  The "truth of my faith" is best expressed by my deeds motivated by Love, not my egoistical instance on my theological correctness.

In His Love, John  :HeartThrob:

Yes! This is what I see too, John. This is what I'm talking about!


"provoking to jealousy" seems an archaic thing that perhaps only applied to a person who knew very little of love. Talking about "jealousy" was a primal emotion. But we have moved past that. We now see jealously for WHAT IT IS. It is not a good thing. It's an ugly, resentful thing that dwells in the darkness of carnal man's heart. Jealousy is never a response to bring up in people's hearts.

Now, if GOD works through you and causes other to bring up feelings of longing (for peace,love, basically for God!) than that is God's working in another to draw them to HIM.


Provoking others to jealousy = being boastful.

Love is not boastful.


Perhaps I'll come back to this later. but for now, we'll just have to agree to disagree!  :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: To Jab........Yep........pretty much what my standard reaction has become to Him rocking my world over another one of my assumptions on what something meant........"smile and nod", LOL.....Blessings....

I think there's more agreement on this topic than may appear on the surface.  Looking at posts, there seems to be a consensus that WE are to express love (I've added sharing the truth in love).  I don't think anyone has said we should try to agitate people, or pridefully flaunt our salvation so they'll be jealous.  (I think that's part of the sticking point, and generally, I don't think it's really present.)

I think what's really being said is that it's God that will bring Israel to jealousy - as part of His overall plan.  

Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2009, 05:45:57 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 05:19:30 AM
You don't think it was jealousy in its worst form?  He could do things they couldn't dream of doing.

22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

--Mark 3

I don't know Molly, it may be, but I've never thought of it that way.  I figured (along with blindness) that their self-righteousness "got the best of them", i.e., in their perception He kept breaking their Laws.  Why, they even picked corn on the Sabbath!  You may be very right with the jealousy piece of that as well, I'm going to have to consider what you've said.  Do you know of any (other) scriptures that illustrate their jealousy?  I've just seen it in the Israel being brought back in as Paul describes the steps in Romans - cast off, Gentiles grafted in, Israel becomes jealous [setting the stage for?] God "salvaging the root", then becoming All in All.

They hated him, Jab, the way Cain hated Abel.  You like Abel's sacrifice better than mine!  Remember?  So Cain killed Abel out of sheer jealousy.

It's very sad when you look at it that way, really.

I'll look for more scriptures.  They were always trying to trip him up and catch him in a snare--so they would have an excuse to kill him.

Quote from: jfraysse on November 23, 2009, 04:51:30 AM

it sure looks like the provokers are taking pleasure in unrighteousness which flies in the face of 2Th:2:12.

Tell me what Peace or Wisdom have we seen demonstrated by provoking others and/or Nations to Jealousy?  How has this idea advanced the ministry of Christ?

Brother John, I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone's making this claim (if anyone is, please specify).  As in my post above, I personally see it as God using what He chooses to use, as we continue to live for Him in (His) righteousness, peace, joy, love, etc.

 :cloud9: And we are all spiritual Israel, which is why the types and shadows work so well for us, so not a big stretch really, to see that THAT type and shadow also applies. Blessings...

On this day, 46 years ago, when I was a mere 8 months old, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated, most likely by a combination of the MOB and the CIA.   I do pray that President Obama's enemies be scattered and be brought to nothing.

Anne

His [Jesus] very existence--who he is--provokes them.  It just sets their teeth on edge.

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 23, 2009, 06:15:05 AM
On this day, 46 years ago, when I was a mere 8 months old, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated, most likely by a combination of the MOB and the CIA.   I do pray that President Obama's enemies be scattered and be brought to nothing.

Anne

Why would anyone kill him?  He's going along with them.  JFK was not.

Hey you two, I split this thread so as not to keep sidetracking Anne's.  Get this back over there  :laughing7:. 

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 06:16:46 AM
His [Jesus] very existence--who he is--provokes them.  It just sets their teeth on edge.

Who are "them", exactly?

I have met many people who did not really seem to be terribly perturbed by Jesus' existence.

Quote from: Gab on November 23, 2009, 06:22:36 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 06:16:46 AM
His [Jesus] very existence--who he is--provokes them.  It just sets their teeth on edge.

Who are "them", exactly?

I have met many people who did not really seem to be terribly perturbed by Jesus' existence.

We were talking about the Pharisees, Saducees, Scribes, Jews being provoked to jealousy..

It's not the Gentiles provoking them, it's God, it's Christ.

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

provoked---> 65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
     "He is worthy of death," they answered.

67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"


--Mat 26

Really, I'm not trying to provoke you  :laughing7:  I'm with you, but I'm exploring the jealousy piece.  Do you think they were provoked to jealousy, or were their self-righteous toes stepped on?  Maybe both :dontknow:

Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2009, 06:55:20 AM
Really, I'm not trying to provoke you  :laughing7:  I'm with you, but I'm exploring the jealousy piece.  Do you think they were provoked to jealousy, or were their self-righteous toes stepped on?  Maybe both :dontknow:

I think they are out of their minds with jealousy lol.  Look how they are acting.  They have lost control.

That's why they persecute him, that's why they persecute us.

That's why Cain killed Abel--jealousy provoked to murder.

Not quite sure what God is accomplishing with this, though.

Maybe it's just --the murder of innocents convicts the world.

15All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

1Then the high priest asked him, "Are these charges true?"

,,,,,,,,,,

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."  provoked--->  54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

provoked---> 57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

--Acts 7




11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I always understood it to mean "somebody has something that you don't have and you want to have it for yourself very much."  The something that Israel would see is a people who are not a nation and who don't understand like they do, and yet, they have the manifest presence of the only God attesting to their Word with signs and wonders folllowing.  Walking in the miracle working anointing of the Holy Spirit is something that Israel wants very much and yet don't have.  They're being provoked to jealousy is that they know what they see on the Christian walking in the power and glory of God working with them in those things only He can do and they know what was theirs, what they lost and want back very much.  That the followers of Jesus have the real thing makes them want it very much, it makes them jealous.

There are things about God that are wrong in other ways.  Like being worshipped.  Only God is to be worshipped.  Or "vanity," something repulsive in people, in God is a right thing.  I mean His is very vain in the sense that He wants to be seen and admired...worshipped.  Like Jealousy, or envy...

James 4:4-6 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Are you not aware that the friendship of this world is enmity with God? Whosoever, then should intend to be a friend of the world is constituted an enemy of God.
5 Or are you supposing that the scripture is saying this for naught? Is the spirit which dwells in us longing to envy?
6 Yet greater is the grace He is giving. Wherefore He is saying, God "the proud is resisting, yet to the humble He is giving grace."

7And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.

provoked----> 8And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?

9And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.

10And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

11And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall with it. And David avoided out of his presence twice.

12And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul.

---1 Sam 18



[Saul was very] "wroth"

H2734
חרה
chârâh
khaw-raw'
A primitive root (compare H2787); to glow or grow warm; figuratively (usually) to blaze up, of anger, zeal, jealousy: - be angry, burn, be displeased, X earnestly, fret self, grieve, be (wax) hot, be incensed, kindle, X very, be wroth. See H8474.

sorry, I posted in the wrong thread :mshock:

I think that there can be different types of jealousy. I remember as a child my "mate" Steph was very jealous of my relationship with my father and did lots of nasty things to me as a result of that jealousy. That jealousy could have motivated her to try to seek that relationship with her own father, but instead of trying to bring herself up to the place I was at, she tried to bring me down to her level of misery.

In terms of our relationship with Father, if non believers see our blessings as children of God then we want them to be jealous enough to seek for that relationship themselves. Unfortunately most unbelievers just try to bring us down and make us as miserable as them. So I can maybe see how that jealousy is a righteous thing that has been corrupted like everything else.

:2c:

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

provoked---> 28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

30But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

31And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.




--Luke 4

I never realized before that Jesus was telling them so clearly that they were going to be thrown out of the kingdom--which for them was physical and a bloodline.

Man.

It's the difference between King Saul and King David.

They think if they can kill him and his followers--they can have the kingdom for themselves.

Man. :mshock:

 :cloud9:  You know, Molly, that's an interesting thought. I bet that's what Cain thought too........even farther "back" than that, no doubt the motive of Satan's heart in the killing of Adam and Eve. And he did in a sense get rule of the kingdom, but the lesser glory one, the corruptible one. Blessings....

Jealousy is resentment. As people following Christ, we should never desire to provoke anyone to jealousy. If this is your mindset, how can you possibly have the fruits of the spirit? How could you possibly be humble? If God, for some reason, wants to use your peace and your love that He has put in your heart, to move someone to wish they had your peace, that is God's job! And God will do this! Sure! But many will use this teaching, pervert it, and slowly become arrogant and boastful.


Y'know another problem with this whole thing is how easily people like prosperity preachers, etc. will use this teaching to further fleece their flock. I've seen it plenty of times before... anytime someone questions their finances, their extravagances, they talk to their flock about the "jealous spirit" that has those people who are questioning them. "well, little flock are we not to 'provoke others to jealousy'? Look! It says so right there!"  :msealed: How does their flock respond afterall, to their misuse of funds when the sentence starts out "God blessed me with.." Get out from under carnal man's authority. And submit yourself to the ONLY authority.


Have a mindset of being eager to show others the peace and love in your heart and what God has done for you so that they may be drawn to the Father. That is about as far as we should be going in "provoking others to jealousy". This phrase is really messed up, imo. I think perhaps if people get the right spirit of the message, it will be ok. Meaning, to share with people what God has done for you as far as peace/love in your heart in order to STIR IN THEM a longing for this. But there are many who will pervert it. And you see it everyday. And how easily it will be perverted! "provoke others to jealousy".
Just my :2c:

BUMP  From Jabcat :icon_flower:

Just In case certain folk missed this first time about...cos it seems some are going round in circles....

"I think there's more agreement on this topic than may appear on the surface.  Looking at posts, there seems to be a consensus that WE are to express love (I've added sharing the truth in love). I don't think anyone has said we should try to agitate people, or pridefully flaunt our salvation so they'll be jealous.  (I think that's part of the sticking point, and generally, I don't think it's really present.)
I think what's really being said is that it's God that will bring Israel to jealousy - as part of His overall plan."

Quote from: SparrowJealousy is resentment. As people following Christ, we should never desire to provoke anyone to jealousy. If this is your mindset, how can you possibly have the fruits of the spirit? How could you possibly be humble? If God, for some reason, wants to use your peace and your love that He has put in your heart, to move someone to wish they had your peace, that is God's job! And God will do this! Sure! But many will use this teaching, pervert it, and slowly become arrogant and boastful.

It's not a 'teaching,' Sparrow, it's a few lines in the Bible which we are trying to understand.  Nor does it say that we are to purposely provoke others to jealousy.  I think it is saying that just our presence does it because of Christ.  It is Christ that is provoking them, not us.

It's interesting where you used the words, 'stir up a longing.'   That reminded me of the healing waters at Bethel, where the angel would stir up the waters first, and then the sick would go in to be healed.  Maybe this is what this is doing in the best case, stirring up their waters so they will desire Him, too.  But, in the case of those outside the kingdom, there will be no healing, only weeping and gnashing of teeth, and a provocation to a murderous jealousy. To me, it explains a lot of behavior I see.  Clearly, this is something God is doing, not us.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Quote from: Taffy on November 23, 2009, 07:50:31 PM


BUMP from From Jabcat :icon_flower:

Just In case certain folk missed this first time about...cos it seems some are going round in circles....

I think there's more agreement on this topic than may appear on the surface.  Looking at posts, there seems to be a consensus that WE are to express love (I've added sharing the truth in love). I don't think anyone has said we should try to agitate people, or pridefully flaunt our salvation so they'll be jealous.  (I think that's part of the sticking point, and generally, I don't think it's really present.)I think what's really being said is that it's God that will bring Israel to jealousy - as part of His overall plan. 

Taffy, To the bold...perhaps you are right, bro.
Peace to ya.. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2009, 07:51:44 PM

Quote from: SparrowJealousy is resentment. As people following Christ, we should never desire to provoke anyone to jealousy. If this is your mindset, how can you possibly have the fruits of the spirit? How could you possibly be humble? If God, for some reason, wants to use your peace and your love that He has put in your heart, to move someone to wish they had your peace, that is God's job! And God will do this! Sure! But many will use this teaching, pervert it, and slowly become arrogant and boastful.

It's not a 'teaching,' Sparrow, it's a few lines in the Bible which we are trying to understand.  Nor does it say that we are to purposely provoke others to jealousy.  I think it is saying that just our presence does it because of Christ.  It is Christ that is provoking them, not us.

It's interesting where you used the words, 'stir up a longing.'   That reminded me of the healing waters at Bethel, where the angel would stir up the waters first, and then the sick would go in to be healed.  Maybe this is what this is doing in the best case, stirring up their waters so they will desire Him, too.  But, in the case of those outside the kingdom, there will be no healing, only weeping and gnashing of teeth, and a provacation to a murderous jealousy. To me, it explains a lot of behavior I see.  Clearly, this is something God is doing, not us.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

The bolded:
I don't know about that, Molly!


And I said "teaching" because it IS a teaching.
A teaching that you hear amongst certain circles.


But, like I said... I think that Taffy may be right.
Perhaps most here are perhaps in agreement possibly.
But molly... "provocation to murderous jeaousy"... sis, I don't think that is what this is about.
Is it?

Quote from: SparrowThe bolded:
I don't know about that, Molly!


And I said "teaching" because it IS a teaching.
A teaching that you hear amongst certain circles.


But, like I said... I think that Taffy may be right.
Perhaps most here are perhaps in agreement possibly.
But molly... "provocation to murderous jeaousy"... sis, I don't think that is what this is about.
Is it?

I am so lucky to never have been exposed to all these 'teachings' lol.  Yes, it is what it is about.  Did you read the scriptures I posted?  They are tearing their clothes, screaming, covering their ears, spitting on him, slapping him, trying to throw him off a cliff, stoning him, throwing spears at him while he is playing the harp.  What would you call that?  It certainly is murderous.  And, it certainly is a provocation of a  very strong emotion that they have no control over.



provoked--->5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

---Gen 4


All of these passages are very consistent.  Their behaviour is all the same.  And, this is so likely the case that Jesus even warns his disciples this will happen to them because of him.


11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

--Mat 5



Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

So you guys....
Is what molly is saying...Is that what you all are saying too?

I'm not quite so sure I understand what it is you all are sayingm now!
Provoking others to murderous jealousy..??

Guys? help me out here...

sparrow  :icon_flower:

The Spirit rules\is the head  of the Soul , as Man  rules\is the head of the wife, AS Christ is HEAD of the Church [woman].... the very thing Adam Failed to Do by submitting to the Soul [woman]EVE

Christ In us is the Spirit and the Flesh is the soul

WHEN the flesh\soul Rules the SPIRIT ,it Puts to death the SPIRIT within...its what the pharisees did with Christ , they persisted to sit in Moses seat and refused to relinquish their Being to be Ruled within..CLEAN the INSIDE of the CUP....


its This Flesh which is RAISED to Jealousy....

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

--Mat 23

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 03:23:57 AM
sparrow  :icon_flower:

The Spirit rules\is the head  of the Soul , as Man  rules\is the head of the wife, AS Christ is HEAD of the Church [woman].... the very thing Adam Failed to Do by submitting to the Soul [woman]EVE

Christ In us is the Spirit and the Flesh is the soul

WHEN the flesh\soul Rules the SPIRIT ,it Puts to death the SPIRIT within...its what the pharisees did with Christ , they persisted to sit in Moses seat and refused to relinquish their Being to be Ruled within..CLEAN the INSIDE of the CUP....


its This Flesh which is RAISED to Jealousy....

Taffy what does all of this have to do with provoking others to murderous jealousy?
This all sounds bizarre, no offense.  :dontknow:
I don't think it's people with the love in their hearts that are provoking others to murderous jealousy.

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 04:24:14 AM

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 03:23:57 AM
sparrow  :icon_flower:

The Spirit rules\is the head  of the Soul , as Man  rules\is the head of the wife, AS Christ is HEAD of the Church [woman].... the very thing Adam Failed to Do by submitting to the Soul [woman]EVE

Christ In us is the Spirit and the Flesh is the soul

WHEN the flesh\soul Rules the SPIRIT ,it Puts to death the SPIRIT within...its what the pharisees did with Christ , they persisted to sit in Moses seat and refused to relinquish their Being to be Ruled within..CLEAN the INSIDE of the CUP....


its This Flesh which is RAISED to Jealousy....

Taffy what does all of this have to do with provoking others to murderous jealousy?
This all sounds bizarre, no offense.  :dontknow:
I don't think it's people with the love in their hearts that are provoking others to murderous jealousy.

Sparrow  non taken  :icon_flower:

All I was doing was putting into context that which Molly mentioned in  her post and what has been mentioned previously..I really dont know a more simple way of putting it :mblush:

But Just Maybe ya missing the point Sparrow...NO ones suggesting provoking Folk to Jealousy.... :icon_flower:

Quote from: TaffyNO ones suggesting provoking Folk to Jealousy

LOL thanks.  I guess I need a translator for 'they are being provoked by God."


11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

--Rom 11

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 04:42:56 AM

provoked by God."

:thumbsup:

I really felt power coming from that post Taf.  Now, whether I understand it all or not is another question (hint-I don't  :laughing7:) but I'm gonna re-read it and think about it some more. 

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 04:31:00 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 04:24:14 AM

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 03:23:57 AM
sparrow  :icon_flower:

The Spirit rules\is the head  of the Soul , as Man  rules\is the head of the wife, AS Christ is HEAD of the Church [woman].... the very thing Adam Failed to Do by submitting to the Soul [woman]EVE

Christ In us is the Spirit and the Flesh is the soul

WHEN the flesh\soul Rules the SPIRIT ,it Puts to death the SPIRIT within...its what the pharisees did with Christ , they persisted to sit in Moses seat and refused to relinquish their Being to be Ruled within..CLEAN the INSIDE of the CUP....


its This Flesh which is RAISED to Jealousy....

Taffy what does all of this have to do with provoking others to murderous jealousy?
This all sounds bizarre, no offense.  :dontknow:
I don't think it's people with the love in their hearts that are provoking others to murderous jealousy.

Sparrow  non taken  :icon_flower:

All I was doing was putting into context that which Molly mentioned in  her post and what has been mentioned previously..I really dont know a more simple way of putting it :mblush:

But Just Maybe ya missing the point Sparrow...NO ones suggesting provoking Folk to Jealousy.... :icon_flower:

Yeah, but it SEEMS like you all are saying... that GOD will use US to provoke others to murderous jealousy. That is a pretty harsh statment.

Are you saying actual people will be so jealous of those that have love and peace in their heart (due to God) that people are actually going to become murderous? Literally?
Is this what you are saying? That God will use His children to provoke his other children (who are still in darkness) to murderous jealousy?

This is what I am trying to establish.

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 04:42:56 AM

I guess I need a translator for 'they are being provoked by God."

This makes it worse!  Now God is evil.

Here is the Fruit of Jealousy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTBx-hHf4BE&feature=related

The God that changed my life 34 years ago does NOT violate his own rules, no matter WHO says so and no matter WHERE it is written that He does.

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

First, it doesn't have to be literally murderous.  It just turns out that way a lot in the Bible.  For instance, Jesus on the cross--remember?  Also, Jesus tells us if you think it, it's as good as doing it.  So if you are thinking hateful, murderous thoughts about someone, it's as good as carrying out the act.

Secondly, this is happening as the result of who God is. And, who Christ is.  Christ in us is what is provoking those in darkness.  Just who he is.  Nothing more is needed.  The darkness hates the light.   As Taffy put it, the flesh wants to kill the spirit.  The first son wants to kll the second son.  These are themes all through the Bible.

But the second son [Spirit/Jesus] shall rule the first [flesh/Adam]--which evidently the first is not too happy about.

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 05:03:36 AM
First, it doesn't have to be literally murderous.  It just turns out that way a lot in the Bible.  For instance, Jesus on the cross--remember?  Also, Jesus tells us if you think it, it's as good as doing it.  So if you are thinking hateful, murderous thoughts about someone, it's as good as carrying out the act.

Secondly, this is happening as the result of who God is. And, who Christ is.  Christ in us is what is provoking those in darkness.  Just who he is.  Nothing more is needed.  The darkness hates the light.   As Taffy put it, the flesh wants to kill the spirit.  The first son wants to kll the second son.  These are themes all through the Bible.

But the second son [Spirit/Jesus] shall rule the first [flesh/Adam]--which evidently the first is not too happy about.

Good insight Molly.  Much to see there for sure.

Quote from: jfraysse on November 24, 2009, 04:56:45 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 04:42:56 AM

I guess I need a translator for 'they are being provoked by God."

This makes it worse!  Now God is evil.

Here is the Fruit of Jealousy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTBx-hHf4BE&feature=related

The God that changed my life 34 years ago does NOT violate his own rules, no matter WHO says so and no matter WHERE it is written that He does.

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

No John
The Flesh Is EVIL....that which profits NOTHING..when Christ tore at the Pharisees in Math 23...by the use of Sarcasm..which in the Greek means to Tear at the FLESH...  do we Now say Christ IS EVIL..God Forbid ... :thumbdown:

Until we realise the FLESH\soul  profits Nothing, we will continue to support it...

the Flesh is ENMITY to the SPIRIT....WE OVERCOME EVIL with GOOD ..Christ OVERCOMES the very Nature of our SOUL\flesh...through HIS enabling Grace through our obedience

So John GOD IS NOT EVIL..

So how exactly is all of this giving glory to God? By saying that the love and peace in our heart because of HIM will provoke others to murderous jealousy?
How is any of this "good news" that we are to be spreading..?

Just not following any of you guys.
I really don't think that I need an "interpretor"  :mblush:.
Just basic answers would be nice.

:dontknow:

Sparrow--

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

--John 3

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 04:50:43 AM


Yeah, but it SEEMS like you all are saying... that GOD will use US to provoke others to murderous jealousy. That is a pretty harsh statment.

Are you saying actual people will be so jealous of those that have love and peace in their heart (due to God) that people are actually going to become murderous? Literally?
Is this what you are saying? That God will use His children to provoke his other children (who are still in darkness) to murderous jealousy?

This is what I am trying to establish.

Sparrow,

in a different thread you were excited about Barry's post re: us being benefactors of the new covenant.  IMO, stick with that joy.  The transition of covenants imo is what the "provoke to jealousy is about"; which involved gentiles being grafted in, and Israel (old covenant) world being provoked to jealousy through this grafting.  It was a pride issue, and the prideful fall.  

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 05:10:53 AM
So how exactly is all of this giving glory to God? By saying that the love and peace in our heart because of HIM will provoke others to murderous jealousy?
How is any of this "good news" that we are to be spreading..?

Just not following any of you guys.
I really don't think that I need an "interpretor"  :mblush:.
Just basic answers would be nice.

:dontknow:

these are as Basic as they Come Sparrow..  :icon_flower:

haVE a great day  :icon_flower:

Perhaps you all are saying that some people who are in darkness are in SUCH darkness that seeing others with peace and love in their hearts will become jealous. And through that jealousy they will rage. But that it is their OWN carnality that is making them have these feelings, their own turning away from God that is causing the jealousy. God HIMSELF is not causing these people to do this, they are doing it TO THEIRSELVES. But it's the peace and love that people have that is provoking them. NOT GOD. NOT US.

Is THIS what you are saying?

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 05:18:17 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 05:10:53 AM
So how exactly is all of this giving glory to God? By saying that the love and peace in our heart because of HIM will provoke others to murderous jealousy?
How is any of this "good news" that we are to be spreading..?

Just not following any of you guys.
I really don't think that I need an "interpretor"  :mblush:.
Just basic answers would be nice.

:dontknow:

these are as Basic as they Come Sparrow..  :icon_flower:

haVE a great day  :icon_flower:

well gee thanks. :sigh:

Maybe some of us are just "basic", Taf.  Count me in  :laughing7:.

I've tried to address this in different ways.  I'll try to explain my understanding of it this way.

How God, in His sovereignty, chooses to do things is not up to me.  It's not about whether I understand it, agree with it, or like it.  He may choose to handle things in certain ways that I personally (my flesh, my carnal mind) cannot fathom, and from my perspective I might say "God's not playing nice".  I probably struggle with that EVERY single day, and sometimes MANY times throughout the day.  My flesh and mind sometimes "scream out" against the things of God.  It's the spiritual battle against the flesh.  But what God chooses to do and how He chooses to do them isn't up to me - and guess who needs to change?   :mblush:  

What's up to me is to bow my will before Him, take Him at His Word, believe everything He has to say to me, both in my heart and spirit and what is written in the scriptures, and let that change me - my feelings, my perspective, my view, my very being (Taf, is that what you were getting at about "clean the inside of the cup"?).

I'll be the first (or second, I imagine somebody already has  :bigGrin:) to say that I'm lousy at doing the above.  That's why I need His grace, his patience, his forgiveness, to slowly bring me along - because I am literally lost without Him.

So if God's Word says that God brings people to jealousy, then what does He mean?  Not "did He say it", because He obviously did.  But what does it mean, what does that look like, how am I supposed to live while God is working HIS plan?   The fruit of the Spirit is (not directly quoting) righteousness, peace, joy...and there remains faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.

:HeartThrob:  

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 05:09:37 AM
So John, GOD IS NOT EVIL..

I agree, Brother Taffy! Just in case you were wondering :thumbsup: :bigGrin:

Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Rom 11:9  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:

Rom 11:10  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Men want the lights turned off so they can continue on their merry, wicked ways.

Turn off the lights!!!

Rom 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 10:20  But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

One of my favorite passages, Mol (and Zekester).  Sooo much in there.  Quite a good summary of God's plan of ultimate reconciliation, actually.  :thumbsup:  Them's shoutin' scriptures!

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 05:32:33 AM
One of my favorite passages, Mol (and Zekester).  Sooo much in there.  Quite a good summary of God's plan of ultimate reconciliation, actually.  :thumbsup:  Them's shoutin' scriptures!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Hallelujah!  The whole creation groaning, then DELIVERANCE!  The whole earth will see the salvation of the Lord.  Lord hasten the day!

Ok, I'm just going to bring this down to a personal level. I can understand God wanting the love and peace in my heart that is there because of HIM and what He has done in my life, to cause others to wonder about it. To wonder where is this peace coming from? Where is this love coming from? How can she love this way? How can she possibly love that person when that person did THAT to her?? I can understand God using what He has done in me to be maybe a little stepping stone to help wrap yet another person in HIS love. Like a domino effect. We all have people whom we remember on our path that we knew God had something to do with the peace and love in their heart. I can understand perhaps a lonely, bitter heart in need of God's love being touched by one of us who have walked a lonely, bitter path and yet now have peace. I can understand the love of God in that. "provoked to wanting to know God" is what I'll call it. Not jealousy. Because jealousy is an ugly resentful thing.

NOW... what I'm thinking you all are saying is perhaps... jealous feelings are coming from those who are NOT wanting to know God. They are turning away from God. But they are jealous because they desire peace also, but they are not willing yet to have their carnal man start to die. So instead of "provoked to wanting to know God"... they are instead, (because of their not wanting their carnal man to start really dying yet) they are INSTEAD provoked to jealousy. (which as I said is bitter resentment.) Well now this is a FAR LONGER ROAD to travel to get to God. Because they are basically, turning BACK away from God and walking back down the road. They will eventually have to come to a point where they are "provoked to wanting to know God". But, we know that THEY EVENTUALLY WILL because God will be all in all.

This is how I see "provoke to jealousy" but I am not so sure that this is what you all are saying or what.

peace.

Edited to add: ok I just read the last 3 or 4 posts, maybe this IS What you all are saying.  :dontknow:

Well, I'm still on the ground pecking around in the dark with Sparrow on this one.  And I probably have already semi-violated the ground rules of this forum, so I will stop here. :mblush:

You guys are the best and in this time of Thanksgiving, "I thank my God upon every remembrance of you!"

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

--Mat 5



Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Quote from: jfraysse on November 24, 2009, 05:46:00 AM
Well, I'm still on the ground pecking around in the dark with Sparrow on this one.  And I probably have already semi-violated the ground rules of this forum, so I will stop here. :mblush:

You guys are the best and in this time of Thanksgiving, "I thank my God upon every remembrance of you!"

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

lol..


You too, John... :HeartThrob:

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

--Mat 10

Molly, are these verses in response to what I just posted? or no..?  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 06:07:49 AM
Molly, are these verses in response to what I just posted? or no..?  :HeartThrob:

They are in response to the thread.  Not to what you just posted lol.

Oh you mean your bigger post?  Let me go look.

ok, thanks.. :grin:

Quote from: SparrowOk, I'm just going to bring this down to a personal level. I can understand God wanting the love and peace in my heart that is there because of HIM and what He has done in my life, to cause others to wonder about it. To wonder where is this peace coming from? Where is this love coming from? How can she love this way? How can she possibly love that person when that person did THAT to her?? I can understand God using what He has done in me to be maybe a little stepping stone to help wrap yet another person in HIS love. Like a domino effect. We all have people whom we remember on our path that we knew God had something to do with the peace and love in their heart. I can understand perhaps a lonely, bitter heart in need of God's love being touched by one of us who have walked a lonely, bitter path and yet now have peace. I can understand the love of God in that. "provoked to wanting to know God" is what I'll call it. Not jealousy. Because jealousy is an ugly resentful thing.

Sparrow, have you never had the experience of being rejected, laughed at, humiliated, or hurt by people because of your love for Christ--whether directly [because you do or say something] or indirectly [because of who you are]?

Rom 3:1  What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Rom 3:2  Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


but,

Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

and

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.




then for me, the grafting in of gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy makes sense.  


and through this, mercy on all.  


to apply this to today, imo; is imaginative and likely to be interpreted differently by many believers. 

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 06:18:11 AM

Quote from: SparrowOk, I'm just going to bring this down to a personal level. I can understand God wanting the love and peace in my heart that is there because of HIM and what He has done in my life, to cause others to wonder about it. To wonder where is this peace coming from? Where is this love coming from? How can she love this way? How can she possibly love that person when that person did THAT to her?? I can understand God using what He has done in me to be maybe a little stepping stone to help wrap yet another person in HIS love. Like a domino effect. We all have people whom we remember on our path that we knew God had something to do with the peace and love in their heart. I can understand perhaps a lonely, bitter heart in need of God's love being touched by one of us who have walked a lonely, bitter path and yet now have peace. I can understand the love of God in that. "provoked to wanting to know God" is what I'll call it. Not jealousy. Because jealousy is an ugly resentful thing.

Sparrow, have you never had the experience of being rejected, laughed at, humiliated, or hurt by people because of your love for Christ--whether directly [because you do or say something] or indirectly [because of who you are]?

Molly, what makes you ask me that?

IF I say yes... what?
If I say no.... what?

QuoteMolly, what makes you ask me that?

IF I say yes... what?
If I say no.... what?

It's not a trick question.  I was just hoping to find something that you could relate to about what this passage is talking about.

It happens to me all the time.  But, then, I'm surrounded by atheists and only stupid, childish people even believe in God where I come from.

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 06:25:54 AM

QuoteMolly, what makes you ask me that?

IF I say yes... what?
If I say no.... what?

It's not a trick question.  I was just hoping to find something that you could relate to about what this passage is talking about.

It happens to me all the time.  But, then, I'm surrounded by atheists and only stupid, childish people even believe in God where I come from.

I didn't think it was a trick question, just can't figure out what made you ask it based on the portion of my post that you quoted?

Did my post, then not make sense?
Is this not how you see it?

Like I said, I'm just trying to understand what you folks are saying.

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 06:29:05 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 06:25:54 AM

QuoteMolly, what makes you ask me that?

IF I say yes... what?
If I say no.... what?

It's not a trick question.  I was just hoping to find something that you could relate to about what this passage is talking about.

It happens to me all the time.  But, then, I'm surrounded by atheists and only stupid, childish people even believe in God where I come from.

I didn't think it was a trick question, just can't figure out what made you ask it based on the portion of my post that you quoted?

Did my post, then not make sense?
Is this not how you see it?

Like I said, I'm just trying to understand what you folks are saying.

I'm just talking for myself, now. 

You said--

I can understand God wanting the love and peace in my heart that is there because of HIM and what He has done in my life, to cause others to wonder about it. To wonder where is this peace coming from? Where is this love coming from? How can she love this way? How can she possibly love that person when that person did THAT to her?? I can understand God using what He has done in me to be maybe a little stepping stone to help wrap yet another person in HIS love.


Can you also understand people who might want you dead because of all of the above?  People who gnash their teeth because you love Christ?  People who hate God, and so, whenever they get close to him, through you, they are thrown into uncontrollable, pathological envy?  People who so do not want to hear it, that they turn rude and tell you to shut up in midsentence even though you are responding to their question or statement?  Or people that go nuts because you say to them, that's not right, or we can't do that?

That has never happened to you?  You've never been persecuted for Christ's sake or for righteousness' sake?

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 06:38:28 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 06:29:05 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 06:25:54 AM

QuoteMolly, what makes you ask me that?

IF I say yes... what?
If I say no.... what?

It's not a trick question.  I was just hoping to find something that you could relate to about what this passage is talking about.

It happens to me all the time.  But, then, I'm surrounded by atheists and only stupid, childish people even believe in God where I come from.

I didn't think it was a trick question, just can't figure out what made you ask it based on the portion of my post that you quoted?

Did my post, then not make sense?
Is this not how you see it?

Like I said, I'm just trying to understand what you folks are saying.

I'm just talking for myself, now. 

You said--

I can understand God wanting the love and peace in my heart that is there because of HIM and what He has done in my life, to cause others to wonder about it. To wonder where is this peace coming from? Where is this love coming from? How can she love this way? How can she possibly love that person when that person did THAT to her?? I can understand God using what He has done in me to be maybe a little stepping stone to help wrap yet another person in HIS love.


Can you also understand people who might want you dead because of all of the above?  People who gnash their teeth because you love Christ?  People who hate God, and so, whenever they get close to him, through you, they are thrown into uncontrollable, pathological envy?  People who so do not want to hear it, that they turn rude and tell you to shut up in midsentence even though you are responding to their question or statement?  Or people that go nuts because you say to them, that's not right, or we can't do that?

That has never happened to you?  You've never been persecuted for Christ's sake or for righteousness' sake?

Let's start with this:
People who want you dead?
Pathological envy?
What is your proof of those two things in those people?

Secondly... people being rude to you is not something I would call being "persecuted".
(just my opinion, others may feel differently.)

Sure, I've talked to many an ET'er who, though I was being reasonable and loving, they went into fits of anger because what I was saying was against what they believed. This is do to a walled up heart. They haven't allowed their fear to be dealt with so their heart has been walled in brick by brick. This is a process... breaking down those walls. People do not believe int he goodness of God for MANY reasons. Fear being a main one. Most are too SCARED to look at what they actually say they believe. This can lead to a numb heart, a shriveled heart eventually. But anyway, this is a huge topic which I could talk for a long time on but it's getting off track. Basically, no... from the way that I share the good news with others, it usually does not have them wishing I was dead. Perhaps there is something forceful or "off" about the way that you are sharing with others to have them want you dead?? Because, this sounds a bit extreme to me.  Just trying to reason this out with you.

QuoteSure, I've talked to many an ET'er who, though I was being reasonable and loving, they went into fits of anger ...

Ok--call it fits of anger, then.  It's all the same thing.  In the Bible, the anger becomes physical--from Cain to Jesus.  Anger is a deadly emotion.

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 05:22:00 AM

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 05:18:17 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 24, 2009, 05:10:53 AM
So how exactly is all of this giving glory to God? By saying that the love and peace in our heart because of HIM will provoke others to murderous jealousy?
How is any of this "good news" that we are to be spreading..?

Just not following any of you guys.
I really don't think that I need an "interpretor"  :mblush:.
Just basic answers would be nice.

:dontknow:

these are as Basic as they Come Sparrow..  :icon_flower:

haVE a great day  :icon_flower:

well gee thanks. :sigh:

Sorry -Didnt means to sound Rude Sparrow..but it was getting on for 3am in the morning.... :icon_flower:

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 05:26:19 AM
Maybe some of us are just "basic", Taf.  Count me in  :laughing7:.

I've tried to address this in different ways.  I'll try to explain my understanding of it this way.

How God, in His sovereignty, chooses to do things is not up to me.  It's not about whether I understand it, agree with it, or like it.  He may choose to handle things in certain ways that I personally (my flesh, my carnal mind) cannot fathom, and from my perspective I might say "God's not playing nice".  I probably struggle with that EVERY single day, and sometimes MANY times throughout the day.  My flesh and mind sometimes "scream out" against the things of God.  It's the spiritual battle against the flesh.  But what God chooses to do and how He chooses to do them isn't up to me - and guess who needs to change?   :mblush:  

What's up to me is to bow my will before Him, take Him at His Word, believe everything He has to say to me, both in my heart and spirit and what is written in the scriptures, and let that change me - my feelings, my perspective, my view, my very being (Taf, is that what you were getting at about "clean the inside of the cup"?).

I'll be the first (or second, I imagine somebody already has  :bigGrin:) to say that I'm lousy at doing the above.  That's why I need His grace, his patience, his forgiveness, to slowly bring me along - because I am literally lost without Him.

So if God's Word says that God brings people to jealousy, then what does He mean?  Not "did He say it", because He obviously did.  But what does it mean, what does that look like, how am I supposed to live while God is working HIS plan?   The fruit of the Spirit is (not directly quoting) righteousness, peace, joy...and there remains faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.

:HeartThrob:  

Again James..didnt mean to sound condesending, twas gettin late and at the time it was the easiest way for me to word it...maybe This way?

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 

The soul\flesh is the will, desire, emotions Mind\heart , missing the mark is Not having the Mind of Christ, or His will, desire FOR us not aliegned to HIS..

The cleansing of the Cup is the renewing of this very Soul, its being renewed daily through HIS SPIRIT , or known as DYING to self ..we are a WORK being Created in Progress..being perfected through suffering

1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.  

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Its HIS LIFE in us which brings the HOPE of Glory to fruition , the full manifestation of Sons. ..US BEING ONE SPIRIT in HIM, HIM in US

Rom 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its Through Much tribulation[ pressing In] we enter the Kingdom ...which is the inner man being made complete...IN US.


Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

This Flesh Profits NOTHING..so, Its This Flesh which was alien To Christ as with Pharisees ,The Spirit is The head of the Soul ,But by their OWN [soul ]mind  will and Desire  was to remain where they were , The pride of the Flesh Refused The Life Saving Spirit in their midst...what was In their heart, manifested itself in deed.

[[[[[again it comes down to -are we FULL of His spirit[nature] Now , or do we have it only in part[nature]...]]]]


God uses The jealousy of the Flesh as with Israel , to stir Them, after all, It was Only the Kingdom at Stake.....

my TWO PENNIES, theres Brits here as well....Rofl  darn yanks.... :HeartThrob:... mind you, most of my friends be American thesedays, care to adopt me...lol

love you guys :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

 :goodpost: Taf.

Quote from: Molly
First, it doesn't have to be literally murderous.  It just turns out that way a lot in the Bible.  For instance, Jesus on the cross--remember?  Also, Jesus tells us if you think it, it's as good as doing it.  So if you are thinking hateful, murderous thoughts about someone, it's as good as carrying out the act.

Finally, something I agree on Molly with.   A good example of this is those who are seething with hatred for President Obama and are praying for God or man or anyone to literally kill him.   Such people are walking in darkness, whether or not they are using the name of Jesus at the very same time.  In fact, to be doing such things while naming the name of Christ makes it even worse.

I've never been seriously persecuted for being a Christian.   However, if I went around trying to poke my beliefs down others throats, they very well might get sick of me in a hurry and if I were to think of that as being persecuted, I'd just be being dishonest with myself.   No one has the right to try to force with a hateful spirit the teachings of Christ on others.   People should be drawn to you because of goodness, not because of your railing against their sin.   It is astonishing how many "Christians" do that and then cry that they are being persecuted.

My two cents......

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy AnnePeople should be drawn to you because of goodness, not because of your railing against their sin.  .

You mean like they were drawn to Jesus' goodness?  




67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

--Mat 26

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 02:16:00 PM

Quote from: Raggedy AnnePeople should be drawn to you because of goodness, not because of your railing against their sin.  .

You mean like they were drawn to Jesus' goodness?  




67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

--Mat 26

You seem to forget about the people who WERE drawn to Jesus, Molly - the throngs who followed him and all the good works he did going about healing the sick everywhere he went.  Just because there were thugs along the way doesn't mean that everyone rejected his goodness. 

However, I know Christians who act like the devil, then when people reject them they cry... "I'm being persecuted for Christ's sake".   There is a big difference.   So you believe people are rejecting you and persecuting you because of the goodness of Christ shining forth from you?   That seems to be what you are saying.   I wonder how many other people on here are having that same experience.

anne

Quote from: Raggedy AnneHowever, I know Christians who act like the devil, then when people reject them they cry... "I'm being persecuted for Christ's sake".   

But that is not what we are talking about on this thread.

What did Jesus do to warrant the treatment he received?  Even those yelling Hossanah when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey were shouting for his death a week later.

Not only is there no excuse for what they did to him, there is no explanation, other than the ones given here.




22Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

--Mat 27

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 24, 2009, 02:32:47 PM
You seem to forget about the people who WERE drawn to Jesus, Molly - the throngs who followed him and all the good works he did going about healing the sick everywhere he went.  Just because there were thugs along the way doesn't mean that everyone rejected his goodness. 

And, for that matter, the people who were drawn to Jesus were not exactly the sort one would expect.  Matthew was a tax collector; Paul was a Pharisee.  The ones with the most faith included in their ranks lepers and Roman soldiers.  Meanwhile, the ones receiving the lion's share of Jesus' criticism and rebukes, and the ones depicted as having the most evil hearts, were the most religious members of society.

I have often remarked about the striking similarities that I see between modern-day Christians and the Pharisees in Jesus' time.  The outcasts are now the "in" crowd.  If Jesus were here on Earth today, I do not believe that those he would rebuke are those who most think he would rebuke.

Those who persecuted Jesus the most were the "religious" ones. Maybe they weren't jealous, just worried they would be shown up by Jesus? Or maybe they were jealous but not of His relationship with Father but rather His relationship with people?

But in the end, they all turned on him--those he helped, the crowds who followed him through dusty streets hoping to see a miracle or hear a word, the high, the low, his friends, even Peter denied knowing him.


66And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:

67And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.

68But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.

--Mark 14

Quote from: Gab on November 24, 2009, 03:08:24 PM
I have often remarked about the striking similarities that I see between modern-day Christians and the Pharisees in Jesus' time.  The outcasts are now the "in" crowd.  If Jesus were here on Earth today, I do not believe that those he would rebuke are those who most think he would rebuke.

...and He would be a Palestinian from Gaza...

"Modern genetics testing has demonstrated that modern-day Palestinians have a direct genetic trail back to the biblical Israelites.

So here is the deal. Some of the people walking around Palestine, Gaza, and the West Bank are blood relatives of Jesus. Distant blood relatives, but still blood relatives. Given 2000 years, it is possible that the vast majority of present day Palestinians are remote relatives of Jesus."

full article here:
http://palestinian.ning.com/video/palestine-jesus-of-nazareth (http://palestinian.ning.com/video/palestine-jesus-of-nazareth)

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 03:18:43 PM
But in the end, they all turned on him--those he helped, the crowds who followed him through dusty streets hoping to see a miracle or hear a word, the high, the low, his friends, even Peter denied knowing him.


66And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:

67And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.

68But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.

--Mark 14

I'd always just assumed it was the mob mentality that they turned against him, with all the fear of the Roman occupation I imagine that it would be easy to turn Him into an enemy. The Romans didn't hate Him because of Him being the Christ, but becuase they were following orders. But I haven't really thought about it before in much detail so will look back over all the scripture you have posted Molly!  :happygrin:

Quote from: NatI'd always just assumed it was the mob mentality that they turned against him,..

But isn't the mob mentality the flesh in action?  Or at least, our basest qualities?

Quote from: natcat86 on November 24, 2009, 03:35:46 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 03:18:43 PM
But in the end, they all turned on him--those he helped, the crowds who followed him through dusty streets hoping to see a miracle or hear a word, the high, the low, his friends, even Peter denied knowing him.


66And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:

67And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.

68But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.

--Mark 14

I'd always just assumed it was the mob mentality that they turned against him, with all the fear of the Roman occupation I imagine that it would be easy to turn Him into an enemy. The Romans didn't hate Him because of Him being the Christ, but becuase they were following orders. But I haven't really thought about it before in much detail so will look back over all the scripture you have posted Molly!  :happygrin:

Hi Nat ..Im From Ross-On Wye In Gloucestershire..I dnt think we met :icon_flower:

These Scrips Testify , that Flesh is Willing BUT weak Indeed, For we are NOTHING, lest  we are Born of Him. :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy!

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 03:41:52 PM


Hi Nat ..Im From Ross-On Wye In Gloucestershire..I dnt think we met :icon_flower:

These Scrips Testify , that Flesh is Willing BUT weak Indeed, For we are NOTHING, lest  we are Born of Him. :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy! I'm from Coventry! Do you attend a UR church? I havent been able to find any!  :sigh:

Sorry thats off topic!

I was wondering if like anger and sexual desire, Jealousy is another emotion that can be righteous but can be mutated into a carnal emotion unless you are born of Him??

Quote from: natcat86 on November 24, 2009, 03:51:31 PM
Hi Taffy!

Quote from: Taffy on November 24, 2009, 03:41:52 PM


Hi Nat ..Im From Ross-On Wye In Gloucestershire..I dnt think we met :icon_flower:

These Scrips Testify , that Flesh is Willing BUT weak Indeed, For we are NOTHING, lest  we are Born of Him. :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy! I'm from Coventry! Do you attend a UR church? I havent been able to find any!  :sigh:

Sorry thats off topic!

I was wondering if like anger and sexual desire, Jealousy is another emotion that can be righteous but can be mutated into a carnal emotion unless you are born of Him??

Hi Nat

yeah saw you were from Coventry..not tooooooooo many miles away.

as for the later..we are given authority \ power to cast out Spirits[ those that Give Life too] such as envy, hatred, fear etc... and all those which dont align to HIS Will

A bird [spirit]may Nest in your Hair[thoughts] , but you dont have to keep it there :icon_flower:

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 24, 2009, 02:05:42 PM

Quote from: Molly
First, it doesn't have to be literally murderous.  It just turns out that way a lot in the Bible.  For instance, Jesus on the cross--remember?  Also, Jesus tells us if you think it, it's as good as doing it.  So if you are thinking hateful, murderous thoughts about someone, it's as good as carrying out the act.

Finally, something I agree on Molly with.   A good example of this is those who are seething with hatred for President Obama and are praying for God or man or anyone to literally kill him.   Such people are walking in darkness, whether or not they are using the name of Jesus at the very same time.  In fact, to be doing such things while naming the name of Christ makes it even worse.

I've never been seriously persecuted for being a Christian.   However, if I went around trying to poke my beliefs down others throats, they very well might get sick of me in a hurry and if I were to think of that as being persecuted, I'd just be being dishonest with myself.   No one has the right to try to force with a hateful spirit the teachings of Christ on others.   People should be drawn to you because of goodness, not because of your railing against their sin.   It is astonishing how many "Christians" do that and then cry that they are being persecuted.

My two cents......

Anne

AMEN!!

Quote from: Molly on November 24, 2009, 03:18:43 PM
But in the end, they all turned on him--those he helped, the crowds who followed him through dusty streets hoping to see a miracle or hear a word, the high, the low, his friends, even Peter denied knowing him.


66And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:

67And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.

68But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.

--Mark 14

And yet, even as he was dying on the cross at Calvary, a criminal sentenced to death for his crimes had faith in him to the end:

"'Don't you fear God,' he said, 'since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.'

"Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.'

"Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'" (Luke 23:40-43)

For as we are told, "the first will be last, and the last will be first."

Quote from: Gab on November 24, 2009, 03:08:24 PM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 24, 2009, 02:32:47 PM
You seem to forget about the people who WERE drawn to Jesus, Molly - the throngs who followed him and all the good works he did going about healing the sick everywhere he went.  Just because there were thugs along the way doesn't mean that everyone rejected his goodness.  

And, for that matter, the people who were drawn to Jesus were not exactly the sort one would expect.  Matthew was a tax collector; Paul was a Pharisee.  The ones with the most faith included in their ranks lepers and Roman soldiers.  Meanwhile, the ones receiving the lion's share of Jesus' criticism and rebukes, and the ones depicted as having the most evil hearts, were the most religious members of society.

I have often remarked about the striking similarities that I see between modern-day Christians and the Pharisees in Jesus' time.  The outcasts are now the "in" crowd.  If Jesus were here on Earth today, I do not believe that those he would rebuke are those who most think he would rebuke.

Exactly! I couldn't have said this better myself.

Speaking of rooster's crowing...
I read this quote not too long ago and it stuck with me:
"The nearer beings are to God, the more humble they are;the further from Him, the prouder." Well, just something to ponder.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sparrow on November 25, 2009, 03:59:50 AM
Speaking of rooster's crowing...

"The nearer beings are to God, the more humble they are; the further from Him, the prouder."

Self preservation leads to denial.

Quote from: sparrow on November 23, 2009, 03:11:15 AM
Hey jab, I just have an issue with the whole idea of provoking others to jealousy.
That is something that needs to be ERADICATED from us, not nurtured.
Despite what verses say, I just can't go along with it.
In my heart, it is wrong.
It is not love.

Let people wonder and be curious about the peace in my heart, and let people wonder how I may be making it through a hard time without getting angry or resentful or full of rage. Let people wonder about my PEACE and be drawn to God's love that is INSIDE of me. But I just cannot nurture the idea of "provoking others to jealousy". Maybe this is something for others. But not for me. Jealousy is ugly.
YEARNING to have peace. YEARNING to have love. I can understand.
Jealousy is ugly resentment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because apparently I feel very strongly.
Unless someone wants to try to explain it in another way that makes sense to my heart and my spirt.

peace.

Sparrow,
We need faith to follow the Lord wherever He leads, even up the mountainside to sacrifice our own child, through faith we please God.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 26, 2009, 05:55:34 PM

Quote from: sparrow on November 23, 2009, 03:11:15 AM
Hey jab, I just have an issue with the whole idea of provoking others to jealousy.
That is something that needs to be ERADICATED from us, not nurtured.
Despite what verses say, I just can't go along with it.
In my heart, it is wrong.
It is not love.

Let people wonder and be curious about the peace in my heart, and let people wonder how I may be making it through a hard time without getting angry or resentful or full of rage. Let people wonder about my PEACE and be drawn to God's love that is INSIDE of me. But I just cannot nurture the idea of "provoking others to jealousy". Maybe this is something for others. But not for me. Jealousy is ugly.
YEARNING to have peace. YEARNING to have love. I can understand.
Jealousy is ugly resentment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because apparently I feel very strongly.
Unless someone wants to try to explain it in another way that makes sense to my heart and my spirt.

peace.

Sparrow,
We need faith to follow the Lord wherever He leads, even up the mountainside to sacrifice our own child, through faith we please God.

I have faith. And I follow God wherever HE leads.
Does it occur to you that God has never, ever, not once LED me to provoke others to jealousy so this is why I have an issue with it...???

Think about that, beloved.
Blindly follow words in the bible, or follow HIS spirit.

I choose to read the words in the bible, but wait for HIM to move me.
I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a really long time for my Father to lead me to provoke others to murderous jealousy. I don't see where it would ever happen. Not from what I know of my beautiful Father.

Just my  :2c:

:HeartThrob:

peace.

Abraham probably thought the same thing.
Yet the beautiful Father did it, none the less.
I pray you do not be asked to follow Abraham in his faith.

I've been thinking for awhile about this aspect of this thread.  The gospel isn't necessarily pretty, or always warm and fuzzy to where people will be drawn by its surface attractiveness.

God does the drawing and choosing.

Jesus' crucifixion wasn't pretty;  "...the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring..."  Is 53:10

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. I  Cor. 1:18

 

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 27, 2009, 05:03:44 AM

Abraham probably thought the same thing.
Yet the beautiful Father did it, none the less.
I pray you do not be asked to follow Abraham in his faith.

Did God actually have Abraham murder his own son? No.
Perhaps his testing Abraham's faith isn't quite what you think.
There are other ways of looking at it.

I may see things in a different way, I suppose.
And that's fine.

But as far as questioning my faith, I answer to Him. Not mankind.

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 05:46:52 AM
I've been thinking for awhile about this aspect of this thread.  The gospel isn't necessarily pretty, or always warm and fuzzy to where people will be drawn by its surface attractiveness.

God does the drawing and choosing.

Jesus' crucifixion wasn't pretty;  "...the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring..."  Is 53:10

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. I  Cor. 1:18

:cloud9: For sure it's not pretty.....there is a "honeymoon" stage (which some never come out of) but there also comes a time where we are expected to lay down everything and get serious about the "family business". Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 27, 2009, 07:47:13 AM

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 05:46:52 AM
I've been thinking for awhile about this aspect of this thread.  The gospel isn't necessarily pretty, or always warm and fuzzy to where people will be drawn by its surface attractiveness.

God does the drawing and choosing.

Jesus' crucifixion wasn't pretty;  "...the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring..."  Is 53:10

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. I  Cor. 1:18

:cloud9: For sure it's not pretty.....there is a "honeymoon" stage (which some never come out of) but there also comes a time where we are expected to lay down everything and get serious about the "family business". Blessings....

Hmmm.  :thumbsup:

I like the way Cardinal puts that, 'the family business.'  lol