salvation of the devil

[Cristina100]

Must universalist believe that all creatures including the devil will be saved or only all humans will be saved.?

[marie glen]

Hmmm, that's a good question.. I wonder that too, though I'm thinking many/most believe "all" includes the rebellious angels? That's what i believe, that the lake of fire "was made for the devil and his angels". I used to think of the lake of fire as annihilation (and very few if any humans going there) so I suppose I thought the fallen angels would perish. But now I think of it as the purifying fire of God's love (and jealousy!) And it was before I really noticed Colossians 1:20 and Ephesians 1:10 which say all things in heaven and earth.. Not that I think the devil will get off easy! I for one don't think that!
Blessings! :Peace2:

[Shev]

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.  17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.  18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,  20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Colossians 1:15-20)

I think the above passage is pretty clear. All things were created by Him, and through Him, and for Him, and consist in Him. And all things are reconciled by Him, whether in earth or in heaven (the realm of spirit).

To say man cannot be reconciled is to see the disobedience of Adam as greater than the obedience of Jesus Christ. To say spirit beings cannot be reconciled is to make the evil of Satan more powerful than the Life of God.

[StevenL]

The adversary (satan) has never done one thing that he/it? wasn't created to do. He's just another servant of God,  like Pharaoh and the kings of Assyria and Babylon. He was created to destroy. He was a murderer and a liar from the beginning, by design. So, if he is a created thing, he will be reconciled in the end according to the Scriptures already posted. Seems kinda crazy after all we've been taught about 'Satan'. But most of what we were taught, about the Enemy and a myriad of other notions, were totally false. I think, may be wrong, but I think we're all going to witness the reconciling of these creatures with amazement, age-enduring! : )

Pro 16:4  Yahweh has made everything for its own pertinent end, Yea even the wicked for the day of evil."

But we know that there's something on the other side of the 'day of evil', don't we? Something to look forward to!

[StevenL]

Thankfully, we are not 'saved' by having to believe that the devil will be saved, or that others will be saved, or that (insert 843,767,421 other beliefs) ... but we are saved by turning to God and trusting in His Son for our righteousness. If we've been led to confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we're ok, and can just let God worry about what he's going to do with the devil. Yay!

[marie glen]

Amen!! :dsunny:  :iagree: :thumbsup:

P.S -

To say man cannot be reconciled is to see the disobedience of Adam as greater than the obedience of Jesus Christ. To say spirit beings cannot be reconciled is to make the evil of Satan more powerful than the Life of God.

  What a great line! Amen!

But we know that there's something on the other side of the 'day of evil', don't we? Something to look forward to!

Amen! It sure is!!

[Dandelion]

I don't know who 'has to believe' what, but I have come to believe that the devil, too, will be reconciled.

I guess it all evolves from 1Corinthians13:8:

"Love never fails".

I believe that God loves all His creations....if He can't love all of them, then He doesn't love any of us, because that would mean that His love is conditional, which I don't believe it is.

So, the devil was one of His most magnificant creations....an archangel, who 'ate of the tree' so to speak.

All creatures come to the end of the road at some point.....the place where no other choice but God makes any sense. Because, ultimately, God is the only being in the universe that can fulfill our needs, our hopes, and give us peace and joy.

He is the one who loves us, with an unfailing love.

D.

[sheila]

 :2c:  I don't believe satan is saved...I believe he is a negative tool 'AI" type thing/timbers hewn and stones[man's spirit as trees of righteousness

  and lively stones]  no sound of a tool in the final assembling..of the Father's house.

   Can Father fashion a tool to serve His purpose? I think so. Not many believe as I do,though.

[StevenL]

:2c:  I don't believe satan is saved...I believe he is a negative tool 'AI" type thing/timbers hewn and stones[man's spirit as trees of righteousness

  and lively stones]  no sound of a tool in the final assembling..of the Father's house.

   Can Father fashion a tool to serve His purpose? I think so. Not many believe as I do,though.

Hi Sheila! I may be somewhere within your line of thinking as I do believe the adversary was a tool created for a specific purpose ... for the destruction or devouring of flesh (dust). For evil. I don't believe he/she/it (does the enemy really have a gender?) was 'perfect' then 'fell'. Jesus said he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. But I guess 'the beginning' of what is up for debate, which we won't do here. : ) But I'm sure that he was created for his specific purpose and he has always carried out that purpose. Either that or he caught God by surprise and then God had to go to plan B and clean up the mess. If God is Almighty, he has no plan B. He's sticking to His original plan. He placed the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden and He placed the serpent there and He knew that the mankind was too weak and ignorant to NOT be deceived and to NOT eat the fruit (because He created them that way as well.) Thus, He provided the Lamb from the foundation of the world.  But if he? is a created being, I'm compelled by the Scriptures to think that he? will be reconciled along with all the rest of creation. Why torture a Tool forever for doing what it was intended to do? I can see just destroying it though, once it's no longer needed. Just some of my current thoughts on this subject. Subject to change.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "...negative tool 'AI" type thing/timbers hewn and stones..."? I think I get what you're referring to but not sure. Interesting. I don't have to believe as you do, nor do you have to believe what I do. But I'd love to hear your point. I've enjoyed some of your posts so far even though they're hard for my eyes to capture with the strange sentence and paragraph spacing. And I won't debate you.  : )

[sheila]

...AI..have you seen lately what scientist are doing in their artificial intelligence robots? God is a great scientist, more intelligent than us mere men.

   Hiram was hired to hew the timbers and stones for the building of the temple. Men are the trees of righteousness and lively stones of which Christ raises up.

  does the hammer or saw lift itself up against He who wields it?   The suffering of evil under this negative tool,I believe,is part of our first spiritual

    training. Pity,mercy and long-suffering had to be developed in our love nature[as a fruit of the spirit] the evil tool makes sure we suffer

and develop these fruits of love..and compassion.  :2c:

 

[StevenL]

Thanks Sheila. I see the satan as a tool also. Not sure about the AI thing though but it's close enough for government work.  God bless. Hope you have a great day!

[marie glen]

Hi Sheila! I may be somewhere within your line of thinking as I do believe the adversary was a tool created for a specific purpose ... for the destruction or devouring of flesh (dust). For evil. I don't believe he/she/it (does the enemy really have a gender?) was 'perfect' then 'fell'. Jesus said he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. But I guess 'the beginning' of what is up for debate, which we won't do here. : ) But I'm sure that he was created for his specific purpose and he has always carried out that purpose. Either that or he caught God by surprise and then God had to go to plan B and clean up the mess. If God is Almighty, he has no plan B. He's sticking to His original plan. He placed the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden and He placed the serpent there and He knew that the mankind was too weak and ignorant to NOT be deceived and to NOT eat the fruit (because He created them that way as well.) Thus, He provided the Lamb from the foundation of the world.  But if he? is a created being, I'm compelled by the Scriptures to think that he? will be reconciled along with all the rest of creation. Why torture a Tool forever for doing what it was intended to do? I can see just destroying it though, once it's no longer needed. Just some of my current thoughts on this subject. Subject to change.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "...negative tool 'AI" type thing/timbers hewn and stones..."? I think I get what you're referring to but not sure. Interesting. I don't have to believe as you do, nor do you have to believe what I do. But I'd love to hear your point. I've enjoyed some of your posts so far even though they're hard for my eyes to capture with the strange sentence and paragraph spacing. And I won't debate you.  : )

That's a great attitude.. to have perceptions subject to change.. if there's new info, etc.. I can see the whole "destroy the tool" afterwards.. not the ET, though, but I too lean toward believing even the adversary will be saved/reconciled.. but if there truly is no, absolutely no kernel or essence of anything what can be saved/reconciled? That's food for thought..

That He can make any sort of mistake or something take Him by surprise, I agree, is something that cannot happen! (Absolutely not!)

I think of it a bit different as to the cause, though. Some new insights (or so I believe) came to mind after my son about 19(?) years ago asked me two questions - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? and "isn't t great we get to be an ant farm?" I answered his questions but you, I wasn't too happy with my answers.. and I was a solid bible studying believer.. but I prayed for better answers and when I got them, they knocked my socks off! And it's not like I believed in hell or anything previous to that..

To keep it short (fingers crossed I hope) ...And these answers came rather quickly, kind of like bam! and bam! and another bam! :dontknow: that's the way I remember it. First thing, seemed to me that God (our Father) can only be perfect. And is also life. When He endowed thinking ability (to angel and man) a whole new world (tree) of possibilities came about. Because with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices. But once one chooses anything that differs from what He chooses, in any tiny way, thought, word, or deed, they become imperfect, the opposite of life. But think of this, because He is life, he suffers, lives through and experiences all sufferings and indignations that ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not making an nat farm, or robots, but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise/perfection. For what is said to be the best teacher? (After the HS.)

This whole answer thing ended with a question to me (with a question coming to my mind) - why did God wait so long and and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first bound to occur rebel thought (say? do we reaLLy have to do all things God's way..?) occurred, but after it had  matured into outright sedition and trickery? Why? so all would take this unavoidable journey and lesson all together at once.. else one wander away now.. another later.. and another.. later.. taking virtually 'for ever'..

Of course, God could see all possibilities from the beginning and has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the best of all possibilities.. And Perfect makes no mistakes, can lose nothing. It's in this way that I feel confident to tell say, and atheist, God is not the author of evil and the evil men do (and women) - thought of course, He is, albeit indirectly, by endowing rationality.. But what is His other choice? No rational creatures? ever?

..and I believe judgment 'day' will be a long 'day' of the review of all things.. all human history, etc.. upon which the truth will be doubly and deeply engraved upon every heart and mind.. a (the?) foundation lesson of good from evil (life from death/nonlife) - every one being fully convinced that to wander from Him can only, ever, end, in a self destructive wisp of smoke (apocalypse, the unveiling when untruth collapses). (Without God's intervention "from the foundation/beginning" all would naturally perish... But of course, that is not His plan.

:dontknow: It's my theory anyway... :Peace2: God bless!

[StevenL]

These are some of the reasons (not to be debated here) that I believe God created and uses evil:

Isa 45:7  Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things." (Same word 'rah'/evil as in tree of the knowledge of).

Rom 11:36  seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

Joh 1:3  all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
(CLV)  All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."

Pro 16:4  Jehovah has made all for His purpose, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Rom 8:20  For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
God did this. A thinking, intelligent, informed created being would not have done this to itself willingly. 'Vanity' includes evil. IMO.

Ecc 1:13  I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

.... many more.

Most of the reasonings I've been given that God is not responsible for Evil, and could not possibly have made an evil devil, have been just that, philosophies, rationales, scholarly assumptions, all based on what humans think God should be, humans trying to let God off the hook for messing all this up (or allowing it to be messed up, same thing if you're Almighty.) But if I rely on Scripture, I'm forced to admit that, of His own admission, He brought evil forth upon creation, introduced it into mankind through an act of His own will (in the garden), and will be responsible for ultimately eradicating it from the creation.

This is my theory. : )  It will change when I'm enlightened by other Scriptural evidence to the contrary or by a change in my perception of the Scriptural evidence that I've already gathered. I've already heard way too many seemingly wise 'words from God' given by people to be swayed by any doctrine or idea that doesn't agree with Scripture, or my perception of Scripture. Many times it is my perception that has to change though, and it has changed many times. But when I read the above-quoted, my 'reasoning' always reaches the same conclusion.

[Dandelion]

Lucifer, or the devil was not created evil.

He sinned because of pride; wanting to be like God and given the glory that God had.

I found this in Christianity.com.

http://www.christianity.com/theology/theological-faq/how-did-lucifer-fall-and-become-satan-11557519.html

It gives references to the Bible, regarding the fall of the devil, from an archangel.

D.

[StevenL]

Yes, Dandelion, that is the opinion of many distributors of theological answers to theological faqs.  : )

[ed]

This was always one of the most enligtening readings concerning the devil.

"In speaking of Satan, or the Slanderer, it will be of considerable advantage if we drop the common term "devil." Satan is the Hebrew word for an adversary, and has not been corrupted by misuse. "Devil" is derived from the Greek diabolos, but it has been incurably corrupted by being applied to demons. Diabolos means slanderer. It is a common noun, and is applied to others besides the one who has it for a title. It has a definite and instructive significance, but "devil" has acquired a very different, though indefinite, meaning. "

This link will get you to a good area of study concerning the whole affair.

http://concordant.org/expositions/spirit-world-satan-messengers-demons/the-fall-of-satan/

Romp around from there a little.  I have found the Concordant.org deals very well with the whole issue.

Here is the expanded reading list:
http://concordant.org/expositions/spirit-world-satan-messengers-demons/


.

[marie glen]

I believe pretty much both, as I think God did create evil, albeit, indirectly.. in a sense.. as everything He does is direct ( :laughing7: paradox?) - I figure what was His other option? ...create robots? no rational creatures? ..ever?
               :dontknow: it's what makes the most sense to me.. Completely done by Him.. In the way He did it.. by endowing thinking ability..
      :Peace2: :girlheart:

[micah7:9]

Yes, Dandelion, that is the opinion of many distributors of theological answers to theological faqs.  : )

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

There are many possible interpretations about the origin of evil. Interesting discussion but really, it is difficult to establish a clear cut doctrinal position on the details of how evil works because the scriptures are not linear on many subjects.

We know their are consequences and accountabilty for evil thoughts, words and deeds. We know Jesus has overturned the source of evil(Jesus said evil arises from the heart) and is recovering and restoring the whole creation from both the source and the consequences of evil.

Jesus said Satan was a murderer from the beginning. He called him the "father of lies" and "author of confusion", but we know that "all things were created by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made".

Some people interpet the prophesy concerning the King of Tyre as a prophetic glimpse into the pre-creation story of Satan.

It could be so, but there is no clear confirmation that anyone can use to prove that- or disprove it for that matter.

Some people believe God created beings with the ability to choose, and that is the beginning of evil, but Romans 8 says the creation was not subjected to futility of its own accord, but was subjected by the Creator in "hope" that it would be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Even tho "diablos" is applied to other things, there are many descriptions of the devll and his works by Jesus, Paul, Peter- so it is not out of place to use that word as a moniker for a distinctly evil being, or for demons.

"in whose case the god of this world(aionos-age) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Who is blinding them? Who created him?

Does God allow him to do so? Or does God do it through him?

All these things have shades of meaning and methods of operation that go far deeper than the eyes of man.

"WHo has known the mind fo the Lord and who has been His counselor?"

IMO when people try to establish black and white doctrine on things that are not fully revealed they are really just counseling the Lord and claiming to know things they dont. Then they put their "proofs" on others while ignoring the contradictory verses and get rude with those who disagree :o)

I know, I hav done it many times..... but as I grow in Christ I realize.

There are paradoxes in the kingdom. They will be resolved when we "know as we are known". The further I go the bigger the picture gets- and deeper. There are many things about which I think I have the core of it, but they are fuzzy around the edges, because the roots go deeper than the vision of man, who must leave his body before he can see clearly beyond the veil.

People try to use the scriptures to prove their "points" and even when they do so they often have their points of doctrine in the wrong order of priority. At what point does an opinion about doctrine become important enough to move from discussion to dispute?

I think, off the cuff, the priority begins with...

God is love.

Jesus, the only begotten Son, is the express image of God

Christ crucified is the proof of God's love for all.

Christ raised is the proof God will destroy death.

God will reconcile all through the blood of Christ's cross.

God will vivify all through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


I mean, thats just a short list of things I see as "roots" and "foundations". Things over which I will debate and take a firm stand. Things that are made clear in the scriptures.

As to figuring out where predestination ends and man's accountabiltiy begins, or whther God is behind evry evil work under the sun, how the devil became the devil and whether we ever choose to do anything or if God is in every choice and thought, etc, etc.  I have my opinions, but I will let the "experts" make their confident assertions, and do my best to poke holes in both sides , because many of these things just arent as simple or as clear as the "provers" try to prove. :laugh: Muahahaha.

I believe Satan will be restored into union with God, simply because God created him, and every adversary must be subjected before God can be "all in all".

"Behold, I am making all things new!" Is simple enough to convince me.

[marie glen]

Amen! God (surely?) is in full control of all things.. He has engineered every thing exactly as He has, because He is infinitely wise! :thumbsup: :banana:

[micah7:9]

Lucifer, or the devil was not created evil.

He sinned because of pride; wanting to be like God and given the glory that God had.

I found this in Christianity.com.

http://www.christianity.com/theology/theological-faq/how-did-lucifer-fall-and-become-satan-11557519.html

It gives references to the Bible, regarding the fall of the devil, from an archangel.

D.

Should you believe that, don't you think that such a happening would have some kind of record at the beginning? I mean some hint? In what book is there info that the devil ever was an archangel? And then of course we have the Latin word "lucifer" right smack in the middle of a Hebrew text. Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28 pretty well identify who is being spoke of...... 2 kings.

[Dandelion]

Click the website I posted and you will see where I got my information from.

Decide for yourself.

If God created a 'devil' to help His purpose, then He obviously considers the devil's life to be less than that of His other creations. If that is the case, then we all are at jeopardy. If one of us is less worthy from the time we are created, then God has a caste system, so to speak.

If He loves the sparrows, I believe He loves Lucifer.

His creations all reflect Him in some way. How can He not love them?

Lucifer waged war with God, in a way, but don't we, too, when we disobey Him?

Lucifer had greater powers than we do. What if Hitler or Stalin had Lucifer's powers?

Yet, we would say they will be saved.

My  :2c:

D.

[marie glen]

I think it's likely the "I saw the adversary fall like lightning.."

I decided to look it and others of this up.. might as well post it. I think it's interesting.

In context..

In Luke 10 -

17 And the seventy turned back with joy, saying, `Sir, and the demons are being subjected to us in thy name;'
18 and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen; -- {the adversary - #G4567 - Satanas, adversary, accuser.. and the word translated fall/fallen - http://studybible.info/strongs/G4098 }
19 lo, I give to you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the power of the enemy, and nothing by any means shall hurt you;
20 but, in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice rather that your names were written in the heavens.'

And also interesting is Revelation 12:9 -

9 and the great(megas) dragon (drakon) was cast forth -- the old(archaios) serpent (drakon), who is called `Devil,'(diabolos) and `the Adversary,'(Satanas) who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.


Which granted, a whole lot of folks believe occurs in the box they've put the Book of Revelation in called 7 years.

- drakōn #G1404 - dragon or huge / great / fascinate serpent
- diabolos #G1228 - slanderer, backbiter
- Satanas #G4567 adversary
- archaios #G744 original or primeval - usually translated ancient (10 times, if I counted right), former(1), early(1) - list here - http://studybible.info/strongs/G744

- Revelation 20:2 -

2and he laid hold on the dragon(#G1404 drakon), the old serpent(ophis #G3789), who is Devil(diabolos #G1228) and Adversary(satanas #G4567), and did bind him a thousand years,

- ophis - #G3789 - a snake, figuratively (as a type of sly cunning) an artful malicious person, snake, serpent

2 Peter 2:4 -

4 For if God messengers(aggelos #G32) who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom(zophos #G2217), having cast(tartaroō #G5020, thrust) [them] down to Tartarus(tartaroō #G5020), did deliver(paradidōmi #G3860, hand over) [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

- aggelos #G32 - a messenger, envoy, one who is sent [ G34; to bring tidings]
- zophos #G2217 - darkness, gloom (as shrouding like a cloud)
- tartaroō #G5020 - thrust down to tartarus
- paradidōmi #G3860 - hand over, to surrender, yield up, intrust, transmit

All very interesting..  :Peace2: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Click the website I posted and you will see where I got my information from.

Decide for yourself.

If God created a 'devil' to help His purpose, then He obviously considers the devil's life to be less than that of His other creations. If that is the case, then we all are at jeopardy. If one of us is less worthy from the time we are created, then God has a caste system, so to speak.

If He loves the sparrows, I believe He loves Lucifer.

His creations all reflect Him in some way. How can He not love them?

Lucifer waged war with God, in a way, but don't we, too, when we disobey Him?

Lucifer had greater powers than we do. What if Hitler or Stalin had Lucifer's powers?

Yet, we would say they will be saved.

My  :2c:

D.

There's a verse, I believe David talking about Jonathan (?) and it says something like.. "if you were my enemy.. but you were my close companion.. we broke (or dipped?) bread together.." which reminds me of Judas.. but also of Yahweh and 'Lucifer'/Heylel(?)

I found it! (Psalm 55:12-14)

12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:

13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.

14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.

:dontknow: I can't help it.. it always makes me think of Jesus and Judas, and God and 'Satan'/adversary..

[eaglesway]

"Makes me think of" means it is an interpretation. May be a correct one. May not. This is the point I was making in my post- not to be disagreeable, I think it could be a prophetic reference to Judas and Jesus- but it was also likely a reference to someone who betrayed David, in his time, like Joab for instance, or Absalom.