Question from an ET defender.

[fullarmor2]

   And I thought I would post it here.  Someone asked me  " What will your response be,  if after you die you find out that ET is a reality"?    Your saved in spite of being a universalist because you still had Jesus.  Will you accept God's will regarding ET?

[Gab]

If I die and am offered heaven, but find out that even one person is not going to get there, then neither am I.

Many will say that this proves that I only love God for what he does.  I say that I love God for what he is, and that what he is is borne out through his actions.  A god who tortures his creation endlessly is not a god who is love, and is, therefore, not the god whom we ought to worship.  Such a god makes the two most important commandments mutually exclusive, as how can we love our neighbors yet also love the god who will torture them forever?  Would it not break our heart to see one whom we love be tortured for all their days on Earth, if we truly loved them, and would we not curse their tormentor?  Then why does everything change when their tormentor is God?  Do those who believe in eternal torment truly not care about their plight, thereby forsaking the second most important commandment, or are they so scared of eternal torment themselves that they simply lie to themselves about what they truly think?

A god whose worship dirties one's conscience is a god whose worship should not occur at all.

[Beloved Servant]

Ephesians 4: (AMP)

12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints, His consecrated people, that they should do the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body; the church,

13 That it might develop until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God, that we might arrive at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.

14 So then, we may no longer be children, tossed like ships to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, the prey of the cunning and cleverness of unscrupulous men, in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.

[sparrow]

If I die and am offered heaven, but find out that even one person is not going to get there, then neither am I.

Many will say that this proves that I only love God for what he does.  I say that I love God for what he is, and that what he is is borne out through his actions.  A god who tortures his creation endlessly is not a god who is love, and is, therefore, not the god whom we ought to worship.  Such a god makes the two most important commandments mutually exclusive, as how can we love our neighbors yet also love the god who will torture them forever?  Would it not break our heart to see one whom we love be tortured for all their days on Earth, if we truly loved them, and would we not curse their tormentor?  Then why does everything change when their tormentor is God?  Do they truly not care about their plight, thereby forsaking the second most important commandment, or are they so scared of eternal torment themselves that they simply lie to themselves about what they truly think?

A god whose worship dirties one's conscience is a god whose worship should not occur at all.

You took everything that was in my brain and organized it and worded it far better than I could have. Thank you.

DITTO everything you said.

[fullarmor2]

    Yes,  I agree also.      And let me say I hated the question posed to me because it is so senseless!    You could say that it doesn't deserve a serious response.  So,  the next time I get it,  I think I'll  say that if that happens,  I will morph into Flash Gordon for the purpose of fighting against the  Ming the Merciless god  who is attempting to torture the people.  Even if that means my own destruction.  :laughing7:   

  No,  I'm kidding,    I would not say this.  I will do my best to answer by the Spirit.

[Gab]

    Yes,  I agree also.      And let me say I hated the question posed to me because it is so senseless!    You could say that it doesn't deserve a serious response.  So,  the next time I get it,  I think I'll  say that if that happens,  I will morph into Flash Gordon for the purpose of fighting against the  Ming the Merciless god  who is attempting to torture the people.  Even if that means my own destruction.  :laughing7:   

Personally, I think the question is really rather indicative of the state of those who adhere to eternal torment, actually.  It's all about "me" - the "must have" item is one's own salvation, and a distant "nice to have" is the salvation of others.  But how, then, can one love one's neighbor as oneself if one cares more about one's own salvation than of the salvation of others?  We would surely look very poorly upon one who assured only his own survival in life, while considering the survival of his loved ones a mere luxury, yet so many are utterly unfazed by those who take the same approach towards the eternal salvation of their loved ones.

The ultimate unanswerable question for all adherents of eternal torment, thus, is this: "If my mother or son died without attaining salvation through Jesus, then what possible reason can you provide for why I ought want to live in eternal separation from them?"

[Tim B]

If I die and am offered heaven, but find out that even one person is not going to get there, then neither am I.

Many will say that this proves that I only love God for what he does.  I say that I love God for what he is, and that what he is is borne out through his actions.  A god who tortures his creation endlessly is not a god who is love, and is, therefore, not the god whom we ought to worship.  Such a god makes the two most important commandments mutually exclusive, as how can we love our neighbors yet also love the god who will torture them forever?  Would it not break our heart to see one whom we love be tortured for all their days on Earth, if we truly loved them, and would we not curse their tormentor?  Then why does everything change when their tormentor is God?  Do those who believe in eternal torment truly not care about their plight, thereby forsaking the second most important commandment, or are they so scared of eternal torment themselves that they simply lie to themselves about what they truly think?

A god whose worship dirties one's conscience is a god whose worship should not occur at all.

That's what I'm thinking too! Personally, I don't think ET can hold a grains worth of salt, so I figure the only scriptural alternative to UR would be annihilation. But I'd definitely be annihilated if it meant taking the same fate as any of my family and friends rather than be with an omnipotent God who supposedly loved them but just wouldn't do enough work to save them. I mean, seriously! In such a case I'd be more loving than God is! Because if I could fix all of this world's mess, I certainly would, and I can only expect a God that is supposed to be all loving and all powerful to do the same!

[Pierac]

   And I thought I would post it here.  Someone asked me  " What will your response be,  if after you die you find out that ET is a reality"?    Your saved in spite of being a universalist because you still had Jesus.  Will you accept God's will regarding ET?

To suggest such a question, would assume I in the flesh would love better than my Creator.

Mat 5:44  "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ... 48  "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ...  :thumbsup:

Paul

[Shadow]

If I die and am offered heaven, but find out that even one person is not going to get there, then neither am I.

Many will say that this proves that I only love God for what he does.  I say that I love God for what he is, and that what he is is borne out through his actions.  A god who tortures his creation endlessly is not a god who is love, and is, therefore, not the god whom we ought to worship.  Such a god makes the two most important commandments mutually exclusive, as how can we love our neighbors yet also love the god who will torture them forever?  Would it not break our heart to see one whom we love be tortured for all their days on Earth, if we truly loved them, and would we not curse their tormentor?  Then why does everything change when their tormentor is God?  Do those who believe in eternal torment truly not care about their plight, thereby forsaking the second most important commandment, or are they so scared of eternal torment themselves that they simply lie to themselves about what they truly think?

A god whose worship dirties one's conscience is a god whose worship should not occur at all.

I too feel the same way, if I had a choice between eternal bliss for myself and eternal torment for just one person (even if it were someone as utterly detestable as Pol Pot or Hitler), or missing out on the eternal bliss myself which will wipe both myself and the one person in ET forever, then I'd definitely choose that we both don't exist

I posted this on a christian forum and extended an invitation to all those christians who wanted to mock and call me deceived for feeling that way to come and do so, surprisingly my post is still the last post in the thread, I wonder why they didn't want take me up on the challenge

If I could feel that way about someone I detest, just imagine how I feel towards someone I love

Taking a cue from the calvinists who believe things are predetermined, I'm just doing what God foreordained that I should do when I came into existence so there is nothing I can do about it anyway, I can't change the way I feel about this, in another thread where I stated something similar, I was accused of being "loosy goosy and liberal minded in my thinking" because the doctrine of ET doesn't bring unspeakable joy to my heart by a calvinist that joined here a few months ago and was eventually banned (in fact it invokes the total opposite, total revulsion and absolute horror)

[sven]

I would answer:

If hell were true, heaven would be hell alike. Only if I were a soulless egoist, the greatest one can imagine, I could accept that it is God's will that I live in bliss forevermore while the majority of mankind would live in agony forevermore.

[sparrow]

A few of those who readily accept ET, are those who have the roughest time loving their enemies. ET keeps them stagnant, keeps their heart small. Keeps their heart LAZY and couch potato-esque. These folks don't actually THINK about what it is that they believe. Their heart is hardened. When it starts to break down and when you actually break down the walls and start to REALLY look at what you believe or what you THINK is the truth... then the horror of it starts to sink in. If you are lucky, you WON'T build the wall back up against it... you'll let it all come tumbling down all around you. That is when you are broken. And THAT is when God can finally rebuild your heart.

When you start to understand that God is the saviour of ALL... even those you don't like, :Sparkletooth:,  then you start thinking about those people that you don't like in a new light. They are not going anywhere. They are your brother. They are your sister. You start to understand "love your enemies".

This is why a few of those who believe in ET so adamantly hang onto it. (not all Et'ers... just some.) Because they don't WANT to love their enemies. Their hearts are like spoiled rotten brats sticking their tongues out.

When they talk to UR folks, they start throwing tantrums.

AND START YELLING AND POUNDING THE TABLE WITH THEIR FISTS!!  :talkangry: :Shoot:

NO! NO! NO! I don't want that person to be saved!!!! (but again... they are not TRULY looking at what it is they believe in. Their shallow minds are just thinking, I don't want this person with me in eternity. I don't like this person. This person did this to me: (fill in the blank) I WILL NOT FORGIVE!!! I want JUSTICE!!!


It's true.

There are so many different things that are blocking a person's heart from accepting the truth of God's love for all. FEAR and ANGER are two of the biggest things.

Oh the many snares that are strewn about in the darkness of man's heart.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

A few of those who readily accept ET, are those who have the roughest time loving their enemies. ET keeps them stagnant, keeps their heart small. Keeps their heart LAZY and couch potato-esque. These folks don't actually THINK about what it is that they believe. Their heart is hardened. When it starts to break down and when you actually break down the walls and start to REALLY look at what you believe or what you THINK is the truth... then the horror of it starts to sink in. If you are lucky, you WON'T build the wall back up against it... you'll let it all come tumbling down all around you. That is when you are broken. And THAT is when God can finally rebuild your heart.

When you start to understand that God is the saviour of ALL... even those you don't like, :Sparkletooth:,  then you start thinking about those people that you don't like in a new light. They are not going anywhere. They are your brother. They are your sister. You start to understand "love your enemies".

This is why a few of those who believe in ET so adamantly hang onto it. (not all Et'ers... just some.) Because they don't WANT to love their enemies. Their hearts are like spoiled rotten brats sticking their tongues out.

When they talk to UR folks, they start throwing tantrums.

AND START YELLING AND POUNDING THE TABLE WITH THEIR FISTS!!  :talkangry: :Shoot:

NO! NO! NO! I don't want that person to be saved!!!! (but again... they are not TRULY looking at what it is they believe in. Their shallow minds are just thinking, I don't want this person with me in eternity. I don't like this person. This person did this to me: (fill in the blank) I WILL NOT FORGIVE!!! I want JUSTICE!!!


It's true.

There are so many different things that are blocking a person's heart from accepting the truth of God's love for all. FEAR and ANGER are two of the biggest things.

Oh the many snares that are strewn about in the darkness of man's heart.

Great post, i totally agree with this Sparrow and can't add to it.
I used to wonder why i couldn't seem to make any Christian friends (from the traditional church).  Well...Maybe it's because they didn't have love.  They are always arguing and falling out amongst themselves, each member of the church talking behind each other's backs.  Huge lengthy prayers but noone lifting a finger to help anyone.  Proud, arrogant, boastful, unlearned on the scriptures.  Stubborn, blah blah blah.  (You know the drill!).

Yet the believers in universal salvation have completely different personalities.  I find them more loving, more forgiving, less prone to fits of anger or quarrels....And all the while they are normally alone (they don't have the support of other believers in most cases), which is a great shame, but they STILL manage to show more fruits of the spirit.  Confirmation indeed that God is with them.

A great post sparrow, you should write a book sometime and post it online, every word you say on here cheers me up!