Once Saved Always Saved?

[Jason76]

Universalists claim a person can lose their first chance, and end up in a purgatory type lake of fire.  Is that correct?  So that pretty much does away with the "Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine" where believers are given free reign to do whatever they want, and still avoid a purgatory type Hell (which according to most Christians isn't purgatorial, but never-ending literal flames).

So again, there is a chance Christians, despite previous conversion, can end up in the purgatorial type hell.  They can do so by refusing to "walk in the light", which is doing certain sins unto death  (lying, sexual immorality, murder, etc..)

[Seth]

I believe in universal salvation, but I don't believe in an afterlife purgatory. I don't believe that believers were ever given free reign to do whatever they want.  Jesus came to save people from sin not in sin. I believe Christians can give up their salvation from sin by going back and serving it again and ending up worse than they were before they were saved from it. I don't believe in salvation from hell or purgatory but from sin itself.

[eaglesway]

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The fire of God, which we read in rev 1, is shining out of the eyes of Jesus who says, "I am He who tries the reins and the hearts", will try the works of every believer. This fire(as I see it) is not the "lake of fire" which is for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book, or who say, "Lord, Lord....." but their works were not sown out of the love of God into the needy- is not "purgatorial". it will simply consume the works that were wrought in the flesh, leaving the believer perhaps without certain "rewards"(in terms of the overcomers rewards of rev ch2 & 3 and 20). IMO the lake of fire is for the persistentl;y wicked and rebellious- being suspended in the light of God which is fire (consumes)to darkness, as in "evry hidden thing will be brought to light". Some UR believers feel that this fire is in this life only, the reaping of our works and attitudes. I believe it is both in this life and the the world to come, after the Great White Throne, where the devil and his angels(messengers) will be tormented.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented(tossed, tormented vexed) with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

I see this more as a cosmic family intervention("know ye not that ye shall judge angels?")

The word of the Lord is quick and active and sharper than any two-edged sword dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. For all things are open to the eyes of Him with which we have to do"(Hebrews 4:12)

Every hidden thing will be brought to light-

Romans 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

[jabcat]

Universalists claim a person can lose their first chance, and end up in a purgatory type lake of fire.  Is that correct?  So that pretty much does away with the "Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine" where believers are given free reign to do whatever they want, and still avoid a purgatory type Hell (which according to most Christians isn't purgatorial, but never-ending literal flames).

So again, there is a chance Christians, despite previous conversion, can end up in the purgatorial type hell.  They can do so by refusing to "walk in the light", which is doing certain sins unto death  (lying, sexual immorality, murder, etc..)

Hi Jason.  (I come from a varied background, including Pentecostal, Baptist (OSAS) and now UR.)    The Holy Spirit does not "give free reign" to believers to do whatever they want.  His love constrains/compels us (2 Cor 5:14).   But even the redeemed are in various stages of imperfection.      I believe the saved (those already having passed from death to life/unbelief to belief) can lose rewards and position of service (no purgatory - His blood is applied.  We are made saints through His grace [yes, there are carnal saints, whose works will be burned but they will be saved]).  The lost must be brought through correction by whatever it takes, to come to the place of confessing Jesus as Lord.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.  Romans 11:29

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.  Romans 8:30

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.  Phil. 1:6

Blessings.

[eaglesway]

Hi Jason.  (I come from a varied background, including Pentecostal, Baptist (OSAS) and now UR.)    The Holy Spirit does not "give free reign" to believers to do whatever they want.  His love constrains/compels us (2 Cor 5:14).   But even the redeemed are in various stages of imperfection.      I believe the saved (those already having passed from death to life/unbelief to belief) can lose rewards and position of service (no purgatory - His blood is applied.  We are made saints through His grace [yes, there are carnal saints, whose works will be burned but they will be saved]).  The lost must be brought through correction by whatever it takes, to come to the place of confessing Jesus as Lord.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.  Romans 11:29

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.  Romans 8:30

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.  Phil. 1:6

Blessings.

:iagree:

[lomarah]

I believe in universal salvation, but I don't believe in an afterlife purgatory. I don't believe that believers were ever given free reign to do whatever they want.  Jesus came to save people from sin not in sin. I believe Christians can give up their salvation from sin by going back and serving it again and ending up worse than they were before they were saved from it. I don't believe in salvation from hell or purgatory but from sin itself.

Thumbs up. (For some reason I can't do smilies from my phone anymore lol.)

We are saved from sin and death. Being a slave to these things is its own punishment. I don't have a clue what happens after death but I am positive that there are millions walking on this earth in "hell" right now. Is there an intensified version after death? Some people believe so. I don't have a clue. But I do know that the Saviour will not fail in His mission.

[WhiteWings]

Universalists claim a person can lose their first chance, and end up in a purgatory type lake of fire.  Is that correct?  So that pretty much does away with the "Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine" where believers are given free reign to do whatever they want, and still avoid a purgatory type Hell (which according to most Christians isn't purgatorial, but never-ending literal flames).

So again, there is a chance Christians, despite previous conversion, can end up in the purgatorial type hell.  They can do so by refusing to "walk in the light", which is doing certain sins unto death  (lying, sexual immorality, murder, etc..)

Jason, you can't compare OSAS with UR because ET and UR disagree on what saved means.

[micah7:9]

Universalists claim a person can lose their first chance, and end up in a purgatory type lake of fire.  Is that correct?  So that pretty much does away with the "Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine" where believers are given free reign to do whatever they want, and still avoid a purgatory type Hell (which according to most Christians isn't purgatorial, but never-ending literal flames).

So again, there is a chance Christians, despite previous conversion, can end up in the purgatorial type hell.  They can do so by refusing to "walk in the light", which is doing certain sins unto death  (lying, sexual immorality, murder, etc..)

Jason, you can't compare OSAS with UR because ET and UR disagree on what saved means.

:thumbsup:

[sheila]

His gifts and calling is irrevocable.....those He forekneww He called and designed to

be conformed into the image of His son.  All men shall bear the image of the incorruptible

  one...[let us make man in our image/the incorrupt]


   Now man may kick against the pricks...and it may also be impossible with men,but

   NOT WITH GOD TO DO THESE THINGS. THIS WORK OF HIS HANDS THIS

CONFORMING OF ALL MEN INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

[Lazarus Short]

Put away such questions.  Once Saved, Always Saved?  No:  SAVED!  As God asked Job, "Is anything too difficult for Me?"

[sheila]

DO I BRING TO BIRTH AND NOT DELIVER?

[FreeAtLast]

Hebrews 10:26-29

If WE Sin(transgress the law)after that WE have received the knowledge of the Truth,there remains no more sacrifice for sins.
Paul speaks over and over in his epistles about continuing and holding fast our faith--

There are those that knew the Father's Will and did it not---kinda what we just read in Hebrews--they are beaten with Many Stripes
There are those who knows not their Father's Will --and they are beaten with few Stripes

Its a terrible thing to fall back after knowing the Truth---fall back into tradition or what-ever--Greater Judgement on those who do so.

Doing despite the Spirit of Grace will land you many Stripes.

ET believes your saved from a eternal torment--so osas doesn't apply in UR--because in UR everyone has already been saved from DEATH in Yahshua
You can do despite unto the spirit of  Grace

Judgement is awaiting all of us now---will you follow truth or fall back into tradition and SIN (transgress the law) Willfully  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 o'yes! there remains no longer any sacrifice for sins  for those who fall back to the law

   for the sacrifices of the temple[sheeps..rams etc] were fulfilled in Christ and He is

  the perpetual sacrifice that takes away all the people's sins. so,if ye shrink back

  to judaism/ legalism and reject the Lamb of God to passover from death under the law

   unto the life of the Christ through grace......ye have no sacrifice at all. for he

  took away the first[covenant] to establish the secound.


   Paul found sin's law present with him in his flesh..the good that he desired to do,he

did not and that which he desired not to do..he did.

     if we do sin..we have an advocate in Jesus Christ..He will save us from sin's law

  in our flesh[this body undergoing this death]

    rejecting Jesus to shrink back to the law to establish your'e own righteousness

  under law..is a big sin deserving many stripes...better to believe Jesus..for if we

sin[fall short] we have Jesus as an advocate

[sheila]

for under the law,satan the accusor of the brethern,accuses them day and night

before God.....but in Christ'the Lamb that looked like it had been slaughtered

  standing in the midst of the throne", makes intercession. and I saw satan fall from

  heaven like lightening............so now all he can do is spew dragon-waters out of

his mouth to try and cause the woman to be washed away of the flood.......=persecutions

for faith in Jesus Christ vs their own righteousness through the old law covenant....

   O' that OLD SERPENT!!!

[eaglesway]

o'yes! there remains no longer any sacrifice for sins  for those who fall back to the law

   for the sacrifices of the temple[sheeps..rams etc] were fulfilled in Christ and He is

  the perpetual sacrifice that takes away all the people's sins. so,if ye shrink back

  to judaism/ legalism and reject the Lamb of God to passover from death under the law

   unto the life of the Christ through grace......ye have no sacrifice at all. for he

  took away the first[covenant] to establish the secound.


   Paul found sin's law present with him in his flesh..the good that he desired to do,he

did not and that which he desired not to do..he did.

     if we do sin..we have an advocate in Jesus Christ..He will save us from sin's law

  in our flesh[this body undergoing this death]

    rejecting Jesus to shrink back to the law to establish your'e own righteousness

  under law..is a big sin deserving many stripes...better to believe Jesus..for if we

sin[fall short] we have Jesus as an advocate

:dsunny:

[Seth]

I believe in universal salvation, but I don't believe in an afterlife purgatory. I don't believe that believers were ever given free reign to do whatever they want.  Jesus came to save people from sin not in sin. I believe Christians can give up their salvation from sin by going back and serving it again and ending up worse than they were before they were saved from it. I don't believe in salvation from hell or purgatory but from sin itself.

Thumbs up. (For some reason I can't do smilies from my phone anymore lol.)

We are saved from sin and death. Being a slave to these things is its own punishment. I don't have a clue what happens after death but I am positive that there are millions walking on this earth in "hell" right now. Is there an intensified version after death? Some people believe so. I don't have a clue. But I do know that the Saviour will not fail in His mission.

IF you have trouble with the icon you can type colon-iconName-colon but using the actual colons: : icon :

But, yes, sin IS the punishment. For the wrath of God is REVEALED from heaven. He turned them over to a perverse mind to receive in themselves the penalty for their error. I don't believe for a second that God is going to line everybody up and give everyone a beating for their sins. He reconciled with the world. He is at peace with us.

However, he will turn us over our own sins if we persist in stubbornness, and that's for our own good. To bring humility. That's his wrath. And I think it makes sense that this description of his wrath is written in Romans 1, and the solutions for being delivered form that wrath are provided in the ensuing chapters.

The picture of Nebuchadnezzar being turned into a beast is the picture of the wrath of God to me. I see that as a spiritual metaphor for the wrath of God that is revealed from heaven, turning men over to their own sin, their own beastly nature, to consume themselves and each other.

Like Eaglesway, I believe that there will be a future manifestation of that, because man remains dead until he is made alive, even if he is already resurrected, doesn't mean he has life unto God. That is why I believe Romans 8 speaks about how Creation will be delivered into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Freedom from what? From death of course. Being alive unto God requires more than resurrection. It requires repentance and receiving the water of life, which metaphorically resides in New Jerusalem, to hear the gospel and respond, is how man is given life.

[lomarah]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Such great stuff here.

[jabcat]

DO I BRING TO BIRTH AND NOT DELIVER?

Amen.  :thumbsup:

[FreeAtLast]

o'yes! there remains no longer any sacrifice for sins  for those who fall back to the law

   for the sacrifices of the temple[sheeps..rams etc] were fulfilled in Christ and He is

  the perpetual sacrifice that takes away all the people's sins. so,if ye shrink back

  to judaism/ legalism and reject the Lamb of God to passover from death under the law

   unto the life of the Christ through grace......ye have no sacrifice at all. for he

  took away the first[covenant] to establish the secound.


   Paul found sin's law present with him in his flesh..the good that he desired to do,he

did not and that which he desired not to do..he did.

     if we do sin..we have an advocate in Jesus Christ..He will save us from sin's law

  in our flesh[this body undergoing this death]

    rejecting Jesus to shrink back to the law to establish your'e own righteousness

  under law..is a big sin deserving many stripes...better to believe Jesus..for if we

sin[fall short] we have Jesus as an advocate

Notice in Hebrews that the writer says that if WE(meaning the Saints)Sin WILLFULLY9he didn't say just plain Sin as you quoted from John that we have an advocate for)but he said Willfully Sin.

Not knowing some things and sinning is completely different than knowing and still choosing to willfully Sin.

Having an advocate is meaning those who want help and want to stop sinning--they have an advocate.

those who willfully choose to remain in their Sin(what ever transgression of the law it may be)after them knowing truth--they don't want  help or an advocate--they want to remain in their Sin--therefore they don't have an advocate or have a sacrifice for their Sin.

this scripture along with others are warning to the believers---chapter 3 of Hebrews verse 1 tells you to whom the writer is addressing his teachings unto and it states that it is unto  the HOLY BRETHERN(partakers of the Heavenly Calling)  Saints--Believers

Yahshua stated that his very own would face these things IF

Those who know their master's will(Yahshua was their master)and does it not---beaten with many Stripes
Those who didn't know their master's Will(Yahshua was their master)Beaten with few Stripes

The servant(Servant of the Most High)with 1 talent was taken and cast into outer darkness(beaten with many stripes) because he knew and did not do

The other 2 servants with 2 and 5 talents knew and they were obedient--Well Done the Master shall say

And as far as going back under the law---it was them going back under the authority of the levitical prieshood and doing those things that were there in

the believers still practiced keeping the Sabbath Days(all of them) still didn't eat unclean things-- and so on

but what the believers did not practice anymore was those things under the levitical priesthood---Animal sacrifices---tithing and such things that were done there in

When you read Hebrews--the writer plainly teaches these things--that the levitical priesthood was done away(we have Yahshua as our High Priest)and also Yahshua is our one and only sacrifice for Sins--these things are what the jewish believers were warned against returning unto after they had repented and believed.

we are under the new covenant now(not the old)
Hebrews 8:10--he puts his LAWS(not them included in the levitical priesthood)in our MINDS and he writes them(his Laws)in our HEARTS(not on tablets anymore)

if you try and take away ALL of his laws--then you are free from ever sinning again--because SIN is the transgression of the law(not the set of laws under the levitical priesthood)

that's why John said if you keep not his commandments(laws)then you have not his love abiding in you-- :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

right! :thumbsup:  for the good that I desire to do[willfull] I do not do....but that

  which I do not desire[will] to do,I do[sin]...thus it is no longer I but the sin dwelling

  in me.....

[Seth]

These are the commandments John is referring to:

1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

These are his commands:

1) Believe in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ.
2) Love one another as he commanded us

In context, those are the commandments John is talking about. If you do both those things, you will automatically not covet, honor your mother and father etc, but not because you are under the Law of Moses. It will be because you love one another, without the Law.

Nobody is made righteous by following moral codes (commandments contained in ordinances) any more than they are made righteous by following ceremonial codes or keeping days, or diverse washings etc. One can made into the image of Christ without following codes. Follow the Spirit and all things will be added to you.

[Seth]

right! :thumbsup:  for the good that I desire to do[willfull] I do not do....but that

  which I do not desire[will] to do,I do[sin]...thus it is no longer I but the sin dwelling

  in me.....

That only applies if you attempt to follow the Law for righteousness. The Law can never impart righteousness. However...

Galatians 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

[sheila]

 hey Seth....I was just trying to show the other side of the sin willfully/willful sin

  issue...Paul was not claiming any righteousness through the law..but through Christ.

  sorry if that wasn't clear... :friendstu:

[Jason76]

What I mean is this:  Sometimes people do not walk in the light.  So in that case, will they go to the lake of fire (a type of purging fire according to universalists)?  Bible verses like the "branches being burned", "the watchman waiting for his master", seem to indicate this.

[Seth]

hey Seth....I was just trying to show the other side of the sin willfully/willful sin

  issue...Paul was not claiming any righteousness through the law..but through Christ.

  sorry if that wasn't clear... :friendstu:

Gotcha. And I agree, that Paul wasn't claiming righteousness under the Law. I was responding to this:

"Paul found sin's law present with him in his flesh..the good that he desired to do,he did not and that which he desired not to do..he did."

I agree with this up to a certain point. However, I believe that when Paul was adhering to Grace (which teaches us to abandon sin), he was indeed able to do the good he wanted to do. However, if Paul were to regress into the Law, he would not be able to grow in Grace. That is what I think he is describing in Romans 7, not that inability to do good is the ever-abiding condition of being Christians, but that if we attempt to grow by means of the Law, we will find sin warring with us, because we access grace by faith, and the Law is not of faith.