South Africa And Hell

[DeeDee]

I have come to realise something over the last few weeks. It seems very few South Africans actually believe in hell. Most people I talk to here (in SA) give me the impression they have always seen God in an all loving light. It could be that I have just approached the right people at the right time (will let you all know in the future).

When I tell them what ET supporting churches teach all over the world they are stunned and tell me flat out they don't believe what the churches are teaching. Like yesterday I mentioned to a neighbour that some churches teach that babies go to hell and he was furious at such a lie. I really think that a few Universalist churches here locally will get hundreds of members.

It's funny but I haven't seen any Universalism books for sale in any shop I have walked into lately. Could be that I am not looking in the right places but somehow I wonder. Thats another thing I would like to see in the future (near future).

How many of you have found the same things I have? As in how many people do you come across that don't believe in ET? How many Universalist churches or preachers have you spotted in your area? How many books on Universalism are available to you all locally? When you post in reply please add your country and / or state as I am doing research into this (to see how widespread the Universalism belief already is and to see how easily people accept it).

[firstborn888]

I'm in part of the bible belt (Texas) and, shockingly - even my old friends who were raised in Christian homes but rebelled and are living the bar/drugs/sex life get freaked out when I assert that all will ultimately be saved. In this culture I guess the thinking is that no matter how 'bad' a individual is in there own minds there is ALWAYS someone worse - bad enough to deserve a one way ticket.

Of course many people around here who adhere to faith in God but are not indoctrinated in King James translation or are not routinely exposed Sunday morning pulpit pounding hell sermons instinctively know the idea is absurd and have the same reactions as your neighbor.   

[Sarah]

I am in the US in the state of Arizona. I do not know a universalist church other than one by Robert Ruthford in an eastern state. I do not know anyone personally who believes in UR, other than the few people who have recieved my testimony.

[DeeDee]

I am in the US in the state of Arizona. I do not know a universalist church other than one by Robert Ruthford in an eastern state. I do not know anyone personally who believes in UR, other than the few people who have recieved my testimony.

Good Job Sarah! Spread the good news to all  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

[martincisneros]

I am in the US in the state of Arizona. I do not know a universalist church other than one by Robert Ruthford in an eastern state. I do not know anyone personally who believes in UR, other than the few people who have recieved my testimony.

Hi Sarah,

Here's some information on UR fellowships in Arizona

http://www.christian-universalism.com/churches/usa/arizona

The Holy Spirit got into an odd series of thoughts with me this morning.  I was just rejoicing in the Lord as my provider and after I'd given thanks for a few minutes, suddenly this subject came up.  The Holy Spirit was talking to me this morning about why there aren't that many UR fellowships.  One of the main reasons is because people have come into this truth out of a desire for rebellion against other Christians that happen to believe in eternal torment rather than out of a genuine desire for what's the complete truth.  One of the ways that that clearly becomes evident is with people that absolutely refuse to go to any type of Church whatsoever.  Where there are UR fellowships, they ought to be a hundred times bigger than they are, minimally.  For people who honestly haven't had the option, or they were too far, that's another thing entirely.  But too many UR folks have a chip on their shoulders about any kind of fellowship anywhere.  Somehow the UR message has appealed to those that just hate Church in general and then they'll hide behind being Separatists for the truth.  In those cases, the ET dogma is an excuse rather than a reason for not going to Church. 

Other people have other reasons for not going and I'm not lumping all of those together in what I'm saying.  Some people are set aside by the Lord for a brief season for Him to do a deeper work in them.  For others, service and fellowship times conflict with their job schedules or other obligations, etc.  I'm genuinely not saying that anyone that's got half a dozen UR fellowships within a dozen miles of them and isn't going is automatically just blowing off time together and time in the Word with other believers.  But that is genuinely the situation with a whole lot of 'em.  A whole lot of 'em just honestly don't care.  They're relieved to know that it's fairly safe to say that no one is going to be being broiled alive hundreds of octillions of years from now, but that's the extent of their relief and the extent of their intent in relieving others if they can maneuver themselves into an argument about it.  But mention an organized effort to stay edified and growing in these truths while maintaining an organized effort to care for widows and orphans while maintaining an organized effort to stay unpolluted by the world -- and they'll laugh really hard in your face claiming that you're still a part of Babylon when nothing could be more Babylonian than their attitude about it.

[martincisneros]

an organized effort to stay edified and growing in these truths while maintaining an organized effort to care for widows and orphans while maintaining an organized effort to stay unpolluted by the world...

I think that one of the problems that we've had with getting UR fellowships going is a lack of definition on why you should come together, so that for too many it becomes a "to each his own" or "whatever floats your boat" rather than looking at New Testament and practical specifics about it.  Besides what I just said on the reason for organizing together, I think the point of carrying these truths to future generations gets lost in the equation with people that run screaming from what they don't perceive much of the Spirit working in.  A lot of that is often their lack of participation and lack of giving because where your treasure is, there's your heart as well.  A lot of people that claim that they don't believe in the rapture/Left Behind stuff still live like it with a "what's the point" attitude about anything related to making sure that this message has longevity beyond themselves and their immediate needs.  If we really believe in this, then it's the responsibility of each of us to look within and ask the Lord "what's my part in making sure that this message continues throughout the earth and into future generations?"  That's when the development of materials, fellowships, etc., starts making sense.

[DeeDee]

You know Martin, it is all so true and so sad. I was drawn to Universalism because I always knew it deep down inside and when I learnt just how much ET churches in America teach I was shocked and scared and knew it all could not be true. That made me have the desire to search until I find the truth. I am convinced that I have.

As for the problem of there not being enough Universalist churches in the world, that is something I think we as a group should try and do something about. To try costs us nothing and if we fail then at least we tried something. With that in mind tho I have to add that we should encourage Universalist churches that aren't 2 "meek" - in other words churches that preach that each person is going to be accountable for his or her wrong doings and that it won't be pleasant but it just won't be eternal. Universalism is not a free pass to sin all you want with no remorse and repocussions. I am seriously considering becoming a minister at some point (once I have learnt and grown enough in Universalism) - even if I can reach one child through preaching out of my garage (for instance) it would be worth while.

Blessings
DeeDee

Oh yes one more thing, I would love to try and set up a type of "charity library" here locally where people can check out used (donated) Universalism books and other Christian Universalism reading material. If anyone has any views on this, pls let me know.

[Sarah]

Thanks Martin,

I had actually seen that site before, but unfortunately I live 4 hours away from the closest one. I have a friend who lives in Safford, and I shared with her that church, it is actually a home fellowship.

I do long to attend a church/fellowship where people believe in the full operation of the body, not just a pastor preaching from a pulpit every Sunday. Although beggers can't be choosers I suppose. Our family hasn't gone to church for 3 years now, and we miss the people desparately. I just can't stomach sitting under the gospel of "spread the good news that Jesus died for people's sins so they don't have to go to hell by default."

[B_T]

Actually, a lot of people in my Country believe in literal hell - maybe most of my (former) churchy friends. Someone just asked me: "How is it possible for you to believe in such a false doctrine that there's no everlasting hell?" Well...

[WhiteWings]

I have come to realise something over the last few weeks. It seems very few South Africans actually believe in hell. Most people I talk to here (in SA) give me the impression they have always seen God in an all loving light. It could be that I have just approached the right people at the right time (will let you all know in the future).

DD,

Are that white or black South Africans?
I ask because the white ones are mainly have Dutch or English roots. So I would expect they have taken their religion with them. That means their roots aren't ET and the same for Europe back then, or they switched from ET to UR....?

[DeeDee]

I have come to realise something over the last few weeks. It seems very few South Africans actually believe in hell. Most people I talk to here (in SA) give me the impression they have always seen God in an all loving light. It could be that I have just approached the right people at the right time (will let you all know in the future).

DD,

Are that white or black South Africans?
I ask because the white ones are mainly have Dutch or English roots. So I would expect they have taken their religion with them. That means their roots aren't ET and the same for Europe back then, or they switched from ET to UR....?

Well the people I have spoken to so far are primarily white. I do know of many black south african christians too, but I am not yet sure if they are ET believers or not.

[sven]

as you mention south africa, i´ve told my parents to buy the book of the 7th Day Adventist Walther J. Veith "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error", to make at least them annihilationists, might this be the common belief in south africa?

here in germany also the belief in hell seems not so spread nowadays, at least in the mainstream, noone seems to belief in a literal hellfire but eternal seperation from god.
many seem to hold the opinion that good people might be saved anyway, so only the utterly wicked go to hell, or maybe a second chance. the modern theologists seem to favour annihilationism. but there a similar fundamentalists like in the US.
I respect the Jehova Withnesses very much to teach the people there is no hell.

its interesting, in Germany more and more seem to reject the doctrine of trinity, those wo reject trinity often also reject ET, while the trinitarians defend ET.