James 1:14-15 - P0rn0graphy

[WhiteWings]

I've found http://www.pc-shareware.com/biblesay.htm when searching for "The Word search Concordance" recommended in a Tentmaker article.
Take a look at it, if you wish, and you see you can find everyday words linked to Bible verses with it.
I browsed a bit and found pornography in the list.

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This verse seem to state that looking lustfully at a woman, porn in this example, simply means you have already sinned.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

That verse confuses me; because it seems to say there are 'steps' toward the actual sin.
a] Lust (no problem yet)
b] Lust brings sin (no problem yet)
c] The completed sin bring death.

The question is what the sin of looking actually is. Just looking? Or because of the looking for example committing adultery?
If just the looking alone was enough for being sinful then steps b and c didn't need to be mentioned.
The verse also speaks of being tempted. Tempted of what? Looking? Thinking? Fantasizing? Having real adultery?

Google is my friend so I found:

Paul in his teaching on marriage says that it is good for a man not to marry, but goes on to argue that because of the temptation to sexual immorality each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband (1 Cor 7:1-2). He goes on to say that this is a concession and not a command (v 6). In verse 7 he implies that there is a gift of singleness which is the ability to be content as single, clearly someone with a strong sexual desire does not have this gift and should marry (v 9), it is better to marry than to burn with passion. He also argues the case for remaining single in 1 Cor 7:25-38.

This seems to insinuate there can be certain trade-offs. The article happens to be about being single as you can read. I didn't quote the whole article but it als mentions reasons why some people are single. One of them is that they just didn't find the right partner.
That that 'concession part' and James 1:14-15 suggest it's 'good' to watch pornography because it avoids real problems. (adultery)
:bowing:

[Sarah]

The thing with sin is that it isn't simply a list of do's and don'ts that we follow to appease God, but it is a condition of our heart that is not beneficial to our body. Lust of the heart is not good for us mentally. It is dissatisfaction and seeking relief in a dead end street.

When a person who knows God is caught up in lust, it leads to death...a separation of relationship because you turn your heart from the only one that can satisfy to do those things which do not satisfy. The thing with pornography is that it isn't a desire that goes away when a person gets married, because it is lust. Some think that since you can have sex when you get married that the desire to look at porn will subside, but it doesn't, it gets worse. It is lust, and it can only lead to death.

This isn't to say that God did make man to desire a woman, in away he can't help it. I'm not sure how to explain the difference, as I am a female, but their is a difference between that 'hormonal desire' and 'the spirit of lust'. Perhaps the hormonal thing is a physical need whereas lust is a spiritual yearning.

[WhiteWings]

I understand all you wrote but it doesn't really answer my question.
James 1:14-15 possibly suggests it's not always wrong. Or a lesser evil.
Afterall it's better to watch porn 10 hours a day than becoming a rapist.
Isn't that what the verse is suggesting?

[reFORMer]

A wrong desire, lust, may arise from an outward incident not a product of our own will, a happenstance sight, or "hormonally," even, we know not how; but, if this desire is fed, invoked with more inward visits, it increases power which in a moment of opportunity may overpower us and we sin.  This is what I understand is referred to in James 1:14-15.  The old saying is, "you can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair."  If we keep dwelling on a lust, imagining it's fulfillment, it becomes an intention.  We may even plot it's consummation.  Desire to thoughts to acts, earliest intervention is the best policy.

Contrary to popular hearsay, all sin is not equal.  For instance, Paul made a point about all sin being outside the body; but, fornication was against one's own body.  (Not only pointing toward reaping in the resurrection; but, it is my opinion that what is meant by Scripture's ". . . one body, and one spirit" [Eph 4:4] is precisely that.  Not that there aren't more set apart specific bodies; but, the entire realm in which is our body is embodiment.  The revealing of the sons, the placing of their physical being into an immortal, born of God condition [Rom 8] affects all material reality, which is itself one single embodiment aspect.  All spirit is one at some level.  That all is from, through, and into God [Rom 11:36.] is directly stated by scripture.  Not only in some greater way in the future, [Eph 1:10; 1 Cor 15:28] it is even a present reality, ". . . Christ is all, and in all." [Col 3:11])  As I was saying, all sin is not equal.  Each act is unique and it's own seed.  There are classes of seeds.  There are degrees of sin.  Much has been made over "sin" as a nature and "sins" as acts.  According to Jesus, we are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect (Mat 5:48.)  That He is here described as "heavenly" opens another interrelatedness of our multidimensional beings.  Nevertheless, His command to perfection is in the context of loving even our enemies.  He is not holding any sin against us. We too must freely forgive all from the heart.  We are to be Christ conscious, not sin conscious.  Behavior is determined by whether we live disposed to the flesh or to the spirit.  Our perfect freedom is in being completely possessed by the Holy Spirit.

Another strange but unexamined idea is that any sin is infinite.  What is seemingly never considered is, if you commit a sin and pay for it, then that's the end of it.  As an example God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves.  They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned.  Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.)  If a man's means to make a living, the tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution.  That is God's sanctions for thieves.  In Numbers 5:6-8 for any sin, it is the principle plus a 5th that is payed to the one wronged besides the ram of atonement.  Jesus is the lamb of God.  Faith in Christ's sacrifice of Himself cleanses our conscience.  The popular teaching is any sin is unrepayable and infinite.  By that logic many support the false idea that unforgiven sin must be permanently ceaselessly punished.


---James Rohde

[martincisneros]

I understand all you wrote but it doesn't really answer my question.
James 1:14-15 possibly suggests it's not always wrong. Or a lesser evil.
Afterall it's better to watch porn 10 hours a day than becoming a rapist.
Isn't that what the verse is suggesting?

Actually, porn produces rapists because of what this passage is talking about with it getting "conceived" in the heart.  Every serial rapist that's ever been interviewed on "when it all began" always goes back to porn.  You can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair.  Temptation isn't the actual act of sin because Jesus was tempted in all ways like we are, but was without sin.  It's not what you're exposed to, but what you dwell on and yield to that's the point.  Just like holiness is both a disposition that you receive when you've embraced the Lordship of Jesus, but it's something that needs to be cultivated by what you dwell on and yield to.  Sin was a free gift courtesy of the first Adam.  Holiness is a free gift courtesy of the last Adam.  But neither do anything in our lives without being fed.  It really does come back to what's kept before your eyes, your ears, and your mouth that'll drop down into your heart and produce the direction that you're traveling in for better or for worse, for richer or poorer, until after the ages when God is all in all (Proverbs 2:20 - 5:2).

[Sarah]

That verse confuses me; because it seems to say there are 'steps' toward the actual sin.
a] Lust (no problem yet)
b] Lust brings sin (no problem yet)
c] The completed sin bring death.

The question is what the sin of looking actually is. Just looking? Or because of the looking for example committing adultery?
If just the looking alone was enough for being sinful then steps b and c didn't need to be mentioned.
The verse also speaks of being tempted. Tempted of what? Looking? Thinking? Fantasizing? Having real adultery?

It isn't as difficult as you are making it. As Jesus said earlier, the sin is in having adultry in your heart. You are tempted by pornography because of the lusts of the flesh. You are not condemned because you have this weakness. You are condemned when your lustful heart dwells with the temptation/the pornography and then finally your lust conceives and you sin because you have committed adultry in your heart. I believe the death can come in two ways. It comes through a guilty conscious that separates one from God in their mind, or as the nature of lust is, it is never satisfied and continues to the next best thing.

[joyful1]

This is a very interesting subject. I have a few questions:
1) what do you guys believe is the reason that bad thoughts are able to "conceive" in us?
2) what is the difference between the "uncircumcised heart" and the "carnal mind?"
Joyce :)

[reFORMer]

2) what is the difference between the "uncircumcised heart" and the "carnal mind?"
Joyce :)

The "carnal mind" is sometimes better translated "disposed to the flesh." (CLV)  The whole personality to be given over to the fleshy nature of the body and the influence of that nature in the world is to have a carnal mind.  To dwell on the impulses of the mortal body in our passions, making choices that accomodate the animal nature and returning to it in the mind, calculating how to serve it, is to be carnally minded, which is death.  The Spiritual mind is life and peace.  We keep giving ourselves over to love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.  This sows to the spirit, bringing forth a greater expression of the life of God.  We keep bringing our mind back to awareness of being in Him where He is over all at the right hand of God and follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit, persisting to keep coming after Him even when He chastens us.  So, over time, Christ is being formed in us.

The "circumcision of the heart" is primarily coming to a "cutting of covenant" with God in our heart.  We are irrevocably His and there is no taking back our motives or passions.  Though there may seem some evidence of straying, it is like a marriage.  We're committed to pleasing Him in all our heart.  It is His to test and break.  It is His.  Secondarily it implies the figure of the tough sack, the pericardium around the heart being cut around.  We become vulnerable, touched with others' infirmities, emotionally available and empathic.  As well, the presence of the Holy Spirit in our hearts is able to pour forth, illuminating the world around us with the multifaceted fire of the love of God.

Galatians 5:16-22 . . .

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

[joyful1]

Thanks, Molly!
I am trying to draw a picture, literally on paper to help me, of the process of a "messenger of satan"/message/ evil idea, coming into the believer with a "circumcised heart" and how that is rejected by the "mind of Christ" so that the thought does NOT take root and conceive sin. Your words have been helpful. I'm going to try to make this graphic available so that you can see what you think about it. Some people can "see" things in graphics that are difficult to grasp in text. Also; some people can "understand" the parables of Christ and "get the message" easier than going into a long drawn out "sermon" if you will, provided that Christ has given them ears to hear and eyes to see. If we are without excuse by looking at the creation, then God surely uses His "handiwork" to show us lessons, right?
Joyce :)

[joyful1]

WhiteWings--
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2986.0
Does anyone here discipline their body? [by yours truly]
In it, I asked what this passage meant?

I Cor 9:27
but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified

Taffy said;
"Paul an ex pharisee ALSO needed to subject his body( heart and mind)  to the TRUTH and not fall away to the TRUTH of the era ..."
So, I'm thinking that this is a good explanation as to how we keep from straying from the truth, and in fact is how we become overcomers....overcoming the temptations that enter into our hearts and minds. We "practice," if you will, rejecting thoughts....disciplining our bodies, (heart and mind).  Meditating in the Word prepares us for such discipline, a mental and spiritual exercise, if you will.......sometimes I think we need to simply eliminate the source until we are strong enough to "resist" its alluring pull..........but as we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds [done by the washing of the Word] ...we are able to resist better and better temptations that just "pop up" everywhere in the world around us without warning.

Do you see what I mean? Does this help? Comments anyone?
Joyce :)

[SeekerSA]

Renamed the thread as we were hit with a p0rN spam bot yesterday

[joian]

The "circumcision of the heart" is primarily coming to a "cutting of covenant" with God in our heart.  We are irrevocably His and there is no taking back our motives or passions.  Though there may seem some evidence of straying, it is like a marriage.  We're committed to pleasing Him in all our heart.  It is His to test and break.  It is His.  Secondarily it implies the figure of the tough sack, the pericardium around the heart being cut around.  We become vulnerable, touched with others' infirmities, emotionally available and empathic.  As well, the presence of the Holy Spirit in our hearts is able to pour forth, illuminating the world around us with the multifaceted fire of the love of God.

James,
This was one of the clearest word pictures I've read displaying something in the natural depicting a picture of the spiritual......

And the piercing of the pericardium was the proof that Jesus was really dead......... I just understood that the circumcision of the heart entails our death also, thank you my brother you are always a blessing as you carry such a burning torch shedding his light........

Your sister,
Joian