I'm frustrated.

[CHB]

I agree eaglesway, although I have read pretty much all of Dr. Martin's writings and agree with most of what he says, I don't think we should look to one man, or depend on one man for all of our knowledge. I have made this mistake before. When I hear, this is the only way, I back off, unless it is referring to Jesus.

CHB

[jbertonbounds]

Would someone please explain to me the difference between "ekklesia" and "church?"

[mplsfitter539]

Would someone please explain to me the difference between "ekklesia" and "church?"

The Greek word "ekklesia," is used 115 times in the New Testament, and in most bibles, it is always translated as "church" (except in Acts 19:32,39,41, where it is properly translated as "assembly"The "patristic writings" would be the Church fathers after the apostles and Christ. So that's where the word "church" popped up, and it's not in the Word of God, so obviously it's a creation of man.

[CHB]

The ekklesia is an assembly, group, or body but the Church is just a building.

CHB

[jbertonbounds]

So the word "church" did not occur in the original scripture texts?  It was "ekklesia" all the time?

[mplsfitter539]

So the word "church" did not occur in the original scripture texts?  It was "ekklesia" all the time?

Yes "church" is an English word that people who proclaim to be Christians use to describe all sorts of things other than "the called out ones".

[Ken]

Hello eaglesway,

Perhaps we are not talking about the same ekklesia? I am referring to an ekklesia as a designated group of like-minded people, as opposed to a church, which dominates its members through a heiarchy of "ministers". More information on this subject is available here:

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=ekklesia&sa=Google+Search

There are some groups that use the word ekklesia, but none seem to be online only. There are also churches that mistakenly use the word ekklesia. Either way, none seem to believe in universal reconciliation.

Now, if you do a Google search for "online ekklesias universal reconciliation", only one seems to come up:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ekklesias+universal+reconciliation+online&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#client=firefox-a&hs=iEJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=online+ekklesias+universal+reconciliation&oq=online+ekklesias+universal+reconciliation&gs_l=serp.12...8044.13037.1.14462.14.14.0.0.0.0.145.1834.0j14.14.0...0.0...1c.1.12.serp.qckGvWayPX0&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.aWM&fp=a53dde7358203403&biw=1920&bih=953

Now, you could argue that all of those who believe in universal reconciliation are an ekklesia. But I would counter that it is not stated anywhere on the Tentmaker website or any others that I am aware of (that this is a specific ekklesia). And, more significantly, while most of those who participate here believe in UR, there are many other doctrinal understandings that many would probably disagree with.

The ASSOCIATES ONLINE has a stated lists of beliefs, so there should be no confusion as to where it stands: http://ernestlmartin.com/ekklesia.htm Anyone is free to start their own particular ekklesia (or, for that matter, church). The book of Revelation list seven specific ekklesias in existence at that time.

Thanks for asking.

Ken

[Ken]

Hello CHB,

Out of curiosity, where did you hear "this is the only way"?

Ken

I agree eaglesway, although I have read pretty much all of Dr. Martin's writings and agree with most of what he says, I don't think we should look to one man, or depend on one man for all of our knowledge. I have made this mistake before. When I hear, this is the only way, I back off, unless it is referring to Jesus.

CHB

[jabcat]

So the word "church" did not occur in the original scripture texts?  It was "ekklesia" all the time?

Yes "church" is an English word that people who proclaim to be Christians use to describe all sorts of things other than "the called out ones".

ekklesia - called out ones.  set aside for a purpose.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew2/D2-CirceDaughterOfTheSun.html&sa=U&ei=F7-CUc7SNoTKqAGe1oCQCg&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNECSLTjid9Rs0Gd5QhLcaa5OxDnoA

[jabcat]

The ekklesia is an assembly, group, or body but the Church is just a building.

CHB

:thumbsup:

I know you've referenced Dr. Martin several times in the past C, sharing some good info from him.  It seems to me he has some helpful things to share, for sure.  I believe many have have bits and pieces of the truth, with some seeming to have been given a little extra by God to share.  Still, I believe as Gary says, we live in an age of a mixture of truth and error.  I've never known anyone I thought had all the answers, but maybe part of that is that I also see through a glass darkly and don't have or know all the answers either.    :Oops:   

Anyway, all parts of the body have things to contribute, but I believe with everything, we must use discernment.   :2c:  God will eventually completely clear our eyes. 

[jbertonbounds]

The ekklesia is an assembly, group, or body but the Church is just a building.

CHB

:thumbsup:

I know you've referenced Dr. Martin several times in the past C, sharing some good info from him.  It seems to me he has some helpful things to share, for sure.  I believe many have have bits and pieces of the truth, with some seeming to have been given a little extra by God to share.  Still, I believe as Gary says, we live in an age of a mixture of truth and error.  I've never known anyone I thought had all the answers, but maybe part of that is that I also see through a glass darkly and don't have or know all the answers either.    :Oops:   

Anyway, all parts of the body have things to contribute, but I believe with everything, we must use discernment.   :2c:  God will eventually completely clear our eyes.

Anyone who claims to have all the answers is a liar.
They have become "wise and learned" and are thus blinded and foolish.
I do know some who seem to think they have all the answers, but I cannot judge that.

[Molly]

So the word "church" did not occur in the original scripture texts?  It was "ekklesia" all the time?

Yes "church" is an English word that people who proclaim to be Christians use to describe all sorts of things other than "the called out ones".

ekklesia - called out ones.  set aside for a purpose.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew2/D2-CirceDaughterOfTheSun.html&sa=U&ei=F7-CUc7SNoTKqAGe1oCQCg&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNECSLTjid9Rs0Gd5QhLcaa5OxDnoA

The 12 tribes of Israel are also referred to as the ekklesia in the New Testament.


This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

--Acts 7:28

[CHB]

There is only one online ekklesia (not to be confused with the word "church", which has an entirely different meaning) that believes in UR:

Ken, sounded like you were saying ASK is the only ekklesia on the internet? I think the ekklesia is all over the place not just on ASK? There are those who are called out that probably don't even have a computer and have never heard of ASK.

CHB

[CHB]

The ekklesia is an assembly, group, or body but the Church is just a building.

CHB

:thumbsup:

I know you've referenced Dr. Martin several times in the past C, sharing some good info from him.  It seems to me he has some helpful things to share, for sure.  I believe many have have bits and pieces of the truth, with some seeming to have been given a little extra by God to share.  Still, I believe as Gary says, we live in an age of a mixture of truth and error.  I've never known anyone I thought had all the answers, but maybe part of that is that I also see through a glass darkly and don't have or know all the answers either.    :Oops:   

Anyway, all parts of the body have things to contribute, but I believe with everything, we must use discernment.   :2c:  God will eventually completely clear our eyes.

Amen, Jab. Dr. Martin has a lot of truth but he doesn't have it all, neither does anyone else.

CHB

[Ken]

Hello CHB,

I suppose we need to more clearly define just what kind of ekklesia we are talking about. The type of ekklesia I am talking about is one that is:

Specifically named.

Proclaimed to be an ekklesia.

Clearly defines what the beliefs of that ekklesia are.

For the record, ASK has never claimed to be an ekklesia. Not now or when Dr. Martin was alive.

The ASSOCIATES ONLINE (not connected with ASK), however, does make that proclamation.

Now, are there other ekklesias in existence? According to Google, there seem to be a few. None preach UR.

Are there any that are strictly online? According to Google, the ASSOCIATES ONLINE appears to be the only one. And, it believes in UR.

Ekklesias in the early times met in people's homes. Whether each one had a specific name for each home or not, I don't know. I would think they would have to have been named, but it could have been just a general geographic community name, too, as the ekklesias in Revelation are named.

In any event, we certainly don't claim to have all truth. We only claim to have an attitude of growing in grace and knowledge. We have over 17,000 links to prove that, not including the many links on the ASK site.

Thanks for your comment.

Ken

There is only one online ekklesia (not to be confused with the word "church", which has an entirely different meaning) that believes in UR:

Ken, sounded like you were saying ASK is the only ekklesia on the internet? I think the ekklesia is all over the place not just on ASK? There are those who are called out that probably don't even have a computer and have never heard of ASK.

CHB

[mplsfitter539]

Ken you listed : Specifically named.

Proclaimed to be an ekklesia.

Clearly defines what the beliefs of that ekklesia are.
Is this list exclusive? Where did you find this for being the criteria of an ekklesia? I was not aware that there was an excepted definition including certain criteria for an ekklesia. The Associates Online is the only ekklesia which exists online as far as you know but what about called out ones that are not organized or not belonging to a named group of like believers?
Do you believe that an ekklesia could or does exist that is not organized into a named group or that has not proclaimed to be an ekklesia and does not have a statement of faith to publish to the masses?

I know this is quite a list of questions but I would appreciate your answers to them nevertheless.

[Ken]

Hello mplsfitter539,

You are raising some good questions. As far as I know, there are no specific "rules" mentioned in the Bible as to what constitutes an "ekklesia" (other than, "when two or more are gathered in My name..."). The short list I presented is of our own making.

Perhaps to understand the subject better we can temporarily (for the purpose of this discussion) revert back to the word "church", since most of us are more familiar with that term.

Now, the word "church" (when used by itself) is often quoted in Christian articles as being the overall body of Christian believers ("the Church has long taught that..."), those called out to understand the message of Christ. The word "church" in that context is referring to Christian believers in general.

But, as we know, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of groups calling themselves, "The Church of...". They are usually defining either a geographical and/or doctrinal disposition.

Then, you have many thousands of Christians who do not identify with any physical churches (probably most on this forum do not),  but are still bound together in a particular, common doctrinal belief. Those who happen to believe in UR tend to congregate here on this forum (and that is a good thing). So, in a sense, you could say that this UR forum is, in effect, a church (or, ekklesia) of believers in UR. Probably there are many others who also believe in UR, too, who either do not know about this forum, or participate on another UR forum, or who participate in no forums. They also could be considered to be part of a greater, undefined, UR church or ekklesia.

While those who believe in UR (no matter where they are in the world) might be considered to be part of an undefined ekklesia, I would venture to say that all of their other doctrinal beliefs are probably all over the map. UR is the only doctrine that is in common to the group. And there is much more to learn than just UR (as we have listed on our statement of beliefs).

What we have done is named and defined a group of worldwide believers, based on decades of biblical research. And, so there should be no confusion or discord, we have stated our beliefs in no uncertain terms. Now, that is not to say that we have perfect doctrinal beliefs or have the only perfect "truth". As we say in our byline, we are "A Worldwide Ekklesia Dedicated to the Life Learning Process". This means we are always learning and are not afraid to change our beliefs as new truth comes our way.

What separates us from any other group is that we are constantly looking for new truth - in all areas of life. Hence, our site, which not only has articles of its own, but has over 17,000 links to other researched websites and their many dozens of articles. It is a group for those honestly searching for truth. Universal reconciliation is just a small (but important) part of that venture.

When you get a chance, check out our article on The Seven Levels of Spiritual Understanding:

http://ernestlmartin.com/index3.htm#religion

In the end, we are all saved. What makes a difference is not what group we choose to align ourselves with (if any), but our attitude. Because our attitude is what will determine whether we will be accepted into the Kingdom of God:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Thanks for asking.

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

Ken you listed : Specifically named.

Proclaimed to be an ekklesia.

Clearly defines what the beliefs of that ekklesia are.
Is this list exclusive? Where did you find this for being the criteria of an ekklesia? I was not aware that there was an excepted definition including certain criteria for an ekklesia. The Associates Online is the only ekklesia which exists online as far as you know but what about called out ones that are not organized or not belonging to a named group of like believers?
Do you believe that an ekklesia could or does exist that is not organized into a named group or that has not proclaimed to be an ekklesia and does not have a statement of faith to publish to the masses?

I know this is quite a list of questions but I would appreciate your answers to them nevertheless.

[eaglesway]

Hello eaglesway,

Perhaps we are not talking about the same ekklesia? I am referring to an ekklesia as a designated group of like-minded people, as opposed to a church, which dominates its members through a heiarchy of "ministers". More information on this subject is available here:

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=ekklesia&sa=Google+Search

There are some groups that use the word ekklesia, but none seem to be online only. There are also churches that mistakenly use the word ekklesia. Either way, none seem to believe in universal reconciliation.

Now, if you do a Google search for "online ekklesias universal reconciliation", only one seems to come up:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ekklesias+universal+reconciliation+online&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#client=firefox-a&hs=iEJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=online+ekklesias+universal+reconciliation&oq=online+ekklesias+universal+reconciliation&gs_l=serp.12...8044.13037.1.14462.14.14.0.0.0.0.145.1834.0j14.14.0...0.0...1c.1.12.serp.qckGvWayPX0&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.aWM&fp=a53dde7358203403&biw=1920&bih=953

Now, you could argue that all of those who believe in universal reconciliation are an ekklesia. But I would counter that it is not stated anywhere on the Tentmaker website or any others that I am aware of (that this is a specific ekklesia). And, more significantly, while most of those who participate here believe in UR, there are many other doctrinal understandings that many would probably disagree with.

The ASSOCIATES ONLINE has a stated lists of beliefs, so there should be no confusion as to where it stands: http://ernestlmartin.com/ekklesia.htm Anyone is free to start their own particular ekklesia (or, for that matter, church). The book of Revelation list seven specific ekklesias in existence at that time.

Thanks for asking.

Ken

Wherever two or more of you gather in my name(in me, in my presence) there I am in the midst of you.

IMO, This is the ekklesia. Whether it is online or in a home or in a high school gymansium or in a church building(being in a church building or synagogue does not exclude a group of people from being a part of the ekklesia of Christ or  from being a local expression of that ekklesia). Jesus wrote some letters through John to seven ekklesias in Revelations, expressing various degrees of approval and disaproval of them. Calling a group of people a "church" does not exclude them from being the ekklesia or a valid local expression of it.

Anywhere"members gather" and share the union and communion of Jesus the "ekklesia" is manifest.

I still get nervous when anyone says they are "the only ekklesia" of anykind, anywhere and I persoally consider it unwise, and usually not true.

Maybe, the only ekklesia "declaring itself as the only UR ekklessia" would be more accurate :o)

Or maybe, the only "officiously declared" online UR ekklesia would be more accurate.

[Ken]

Hello eaglesway,

Please feel free to call it anything you want. It makes no difference to us. The point is that is a place for UR people to fellowship and, more importantly, continue on with the life learning process in an educational environment unlike anything else on the Internet.

What level would you say you are at? http://ernestlmartin.com/index3.htm#religion

Like everything else, this is all a matter of attitude.  :thumbsup:

Ken

Hello eaglesway,

Perhaps we are not talking about the same ekklesia? I am referring to an ekklesia as a designated group of like-minded people, as opposed to a church, which dominates its members through a heiarchy of "ministers". More information on this subject is available here:

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ASK?sitesearch=askelm.com&q=ekklesia&sa=Google+Search

There are some groups that use the word ekklesia, but none seem to be online only. There are also churches that mistakenly use the word ekklesia. Either way, none seem to believe in universal reconciliation.

Now, if you do a Google search for "online ekklesias universal reconciliation", only one seems to come up:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ekklesias+universal+reconciliation+online&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#client=firefox-a&hs=iEJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=online+ekklesias+universal+reconciliation&oq=online+ekklesias+universal+reconciliation&gs_l=serp.12...8044.13037.1.14462.14.14.0.0.0.0.145.1834.0j14.14.0...0.0...1c.1.12.serp.qckGvWayPX0&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.aWM&fp=a53dde7358203403&biw=1920&bih=953

Now, you could argue that all of those who believe in universal reconciliation are an ekklesia. But I would counter that it is not stated anywhere on the Tentmaker website or any others that I am aware of (that this is a specific ekklesia). And, more significantly, while most of those who participate here believe in UR, there are many other doctrinal understandings that many would probably disagree with.

The ASSOCIATES ONLINE has a stated lists of beliefs, so there should be no confusion as to where it stands: http://ernestlmartin.com/ekklesia.htm Anyone is free to start their own particular ekklesia (or, for that matter, church). The book of Revelation list seven specific ekklesias in existence at that time.

Thanks for asking.

Ken

Wherever two or more of you gather in my name(in me, in my presence) there I am in the midst of you.

IMO, This is the ekklesia. Whether it is online or in a home or in a high school gymansium or in a church building(being in a church building or synagogue does not exclude a group of people from being a part of the ekklesia of Christ or  from being a local expression of that ekklesia). Jesus wrote some letters through John to seven ekklesias in Revelations, expressing various degrees of approval and disaproval of them. Calling a group of people a "church" does not exclude them from being the ekklesia or a valid local expression of it.

Anywhere"members gather" and share the union and communion of Jesus the "ekklesia" is manifest.

I still get nervous when anyone says they are "the only ekklesia" of anykind, anywhere and I persoally consider it unwise, and usually not true.

Maybe, the only ekklesia "declaring itself as the only UR ekklessia" would be more accurate :o)

Or maybe, the only "officiously declared" online UR ekklesia would be more accurate.

[eaglesway]

Terminology is useful as a means of expressing experience/reality. However, it is not reality itself. By the declaration (with which I find no fault except for the "only" part) with which you seem to define yourselves, the "us" you are in fellowship, I have experienced right here on Tentmaker- whether it has been declared, or defined, as such or not really makes no difference to me, because it is the true experience we are all seeking, I hope, over and above(but of course not to the exclusion of) the definition.

The essence of ekklesia is fellowship.

"If we walk i the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."(1 Jn)

And I do agree, it is all very much a matter of attitude. :o)


Phil 2:1 
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,  make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The verses in Phil 2:1-11, for me, define the essence of what we, the "ekklesia" are "called out" to experience together in Him. These verses incorporate the hope of the gospel,- fellowship with God, through fellowship among men, unto fellowship among every sentient being in the universe from the beginning to the end. Glory to God!

[jbertonbounds]

Call it church, call it ekklesia, this is a gathering place for those who are searching for the truth of UR and those who are praising our Father and the name of Jesus, worshiping together, praying together.  I have never been to a church where I felt more fellowship, kinsmanship.  This forum was literally a God-send to me, and I am thankful for all of you who have made such a difference in my life, at a time when things in my local church are not going so well.  You all have brought me joy and friendship from Yahweh, and my local church has brought me stress and hurt.  May God bless each of you abundantly. :gimmefive:

[eaglesway]

 :gimmefive:

[jedi1989]

Due to popular request, here is the link to a thought provoking book, "SO you don't want to go to church anymore"

http://www.jakecolsen.com/JakeStory.pdf

Beautiful book  :thumbsup:
Do you think that was really John the Apostle?

[rosered]

Call it church, call it ekklesia, this is a gathering place for those who are searching for the truth of UR and those who are praising our Father and the name of Jesus, worshiping together, praying together.  I have never been to a church where I felt more fellowship, kinsmanship.  This forum was literally a God-send to me, and I am thankful for all of you who have made such a difference in my life, at a time when things in my local church are not going so well.  You all have brought me joy and friendship from Yahweh, and my local church has brought me stress and hurt.  May God bless each of you abundantly. :gimmefive:

God bless  you Bro Jb :HeartThrob:   :iagree:  with you

for me the ''Body of Christ'' assembling , is the true Church , the Head and all authority is already in Place   Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Gods glory and work in progress concerning the gifts of Gods grace  to find your place and remain faithful in them , where two or three are  gathered in His name HE IS IN THE MIDST of them !!  :dsunny:

  Body is many members   as far as walking in Love its is what Christ is doing in the earth  His strength  legs  [the feet are those preaching the gospel of Peace with the Same Spirit  of ONE GOD one faith one baptism   etc .. 

Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
we are to Lift  HIM UP [Christ ] in one another  , buiding one another in His Love
just a few more thoughts  on the matter at hand [power,authority ]

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Strong's G1188 - dexios
1) the right, the right hand

2) metaph.

a) a place of honour or authority


also  just to me  Ephesians is all about the mystery of the true Church  [Body of Christ ] and  its is also  the first church mentioned as one of the 7 in Rev 2,3 Ephesus   same  meaning G2181 - Ephesos Ephesus = "permitted"

[lomarah]

Amen Rose. That was awesome.  :cloud9: