How do I deal with people who say there's no afterlife?

[Nathan]

Wow . . .how humbling is that.

[Doc]

Ok Nathan, Cardinal and Martin... Great stuff! Thanks for confirming those things for me. But I want to understand something. It seems (at least Martin) is saying that the way I feel about it is indeed the case for believers. But what happens to the non-believer? Do they not rise again until the 1000 years are ended? Is that what Revelation is talking about? If so, when does the "1000 years" begin?

What does Paul mean when he says he's trying to obtain a "better resurrection"? What is a resurrection of life and what is a resurrection of shame and contempt, and when?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: For me, a thousand years is as a day, and a day here is the day of the Lord which is a day of no part darkness, which is Christ Himself. What He gave me concerning days is this below, and it's quite long, but it takes it to make the point.

There are 4 parts to the soul of man, which correspond to the 4 rivers that came out of the garden, the four corners of our earth (man was taken from the dust/earth). The four parts are mind, will, emotions and desires. When He said He would call them out of the four corners of the earth, He also meant out of OUR ways to be centered into His ways, our new heart, the mind of Christ. These 4 become one AGAIN in Revelation, thru the processing of the walking out of the cross. The desire of all nations shall come, and is coming now.

There are four horns on the altar because of this, on which we are tied down with cords of love which cannot be broken. Horns mean power. These 4 horns, make up one of the crowns we must lay down (on the altar). The crowns had points or "horns"; each point or ray, (think of her crown in Rev.) meant that the one who wore it was given dominion over that kingdom, which is what the points stood for. This is also why there were 4 watches in night, which were composed of 3 hours each, so 3 times 4 = 12, the twelve hours of darkness. So there are 4 parts to the nighttime/darkness of our souls.

The name/natures/life experiences of 12 tribes are part of the Christ that is formed in us; so are the name/natures/life experiences of the 12 apostles. What John saw took place IN THE TEMPLE. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost?"

These 2 (two is the number of witness) twelves, are the 24 elders around the throne. Our heart becomes His throne, when He is ruling in it completely. Interestingly, when you look up the word for elder, it runs into a meaning of "rays", as in rays of light, and horns, as above.

Those under the old covenant represent the 12 hours of darkness, for their light (the Christ) had not yet come. They are the walls/gates of of the city = the depth and height. The priests ate the shewbread and bread speaks of the Word. We are a priestly nation, a peculiar or chosen people, who are called to eat the bread in the light of the candlestick (the Spirit of Christ). Each one of their names means something spiritually to us. For example, Judah means praise and it is in the inner court experience of the baptism in the Spirit, that we learn what it means to praise God thru our spirits. Simeon, means to hear, and it is also here that we learn to listen for the voice of our Father.

The 12 apostles represent the 12 hours of light, and are the foundation of the city = width and breadth. 12 times 12 =144,000 which is the government of God established in the earth (Adam was taken from the dust of the earth) with the Christ, which is the Chief cornerstone. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH, as it is in heaven. G-d changes the lump before He changes the whole; He doesn't change the world, then change the individuals. He changes the individuals from the inside out, THEN He will use them to change the world.

Together, with the light of the Christ, they make up the new DAY of the Lord (12 plus 12 = 24), when the day star arises in our hearts, to sit upon His throne in us. Another way to say it is, when He resurrects IN US, having put all powers and principalities IN US, under His feet (His foundation), IN US. This is the full measure and stature of Christ. This soulish body is the tomb He lays in and we want this millstone, the carnal mind that has bound us to the works of the flesh governed over by the yoke of the law, to give up the ghost, so that the hand of God can move it out of it's place, breaking this, the last seal on the tomb, so that He can resurrect up out of the flesh of us. The last enemy to be overcome is DEATH.

This is why John lost his head. The Lord told me that He has been forming these natures of the Christ of these 24, and that they have been entering the ark, by TWO'S, and that John comes to bring Benjamin, the son of my right hand, the finishing work. John is the friend of the bridegroom because he hears the voice of the bridegroom, and his voice comes to do just what John the beloved, the revelator/the unveiler, did.

Which is; pronounce the judgments upon the flesh/church/woman covering up the Christ/son, which is keeping the veil of this flesh from being rent, ie. the child from being born. Why is he the friend of the bridegroom? No greater LOVE than any man than this, that he lay down his life (the soulish life) for his friend. He said that he hears His voice and for this reasons his joy is full.

His joy is full because if the part of the Christ of John the beloved has been formed in us, then He can speak what needs to be spoken to RELEASE the Lord from our midst! Halleluah! The friend of the bridegroom comes to bring forth the bride, ie. the redeemed soul that He can come forth thru and in, the wheel within a wheel. Joy cometh in the morning, because the day star arises in the morning. It is righteousness (outer court), peace (inner court) and joy (Holy of Holies).

For our ashes, He gives us beauty. The altar had a grate (corresponds to the lattice in Song of Sol. = in-part), and this is why those souls were stated to be UNDER the altar in Rev., crying not for vengeance as the blood of Adam would dictate, but asking when the rest of their brethren (which is all humanity) would be killed as they were, ie. consumed by Him as by fire, His love. In the previous chapter, it states these are those that are REDEEMED from among men. These are those (us, God willing) that take place in the first resurrection, loving not our lives (soulish life, ie. the life the soul thinks it has, which is really death, for to be carnally minded is death) unto the death (of the cross = 4 horns of altar).

Everything He did we walk out spiritually; if it were not so, and we were there already by virtue of Him doing it all, then we would have to take out all the feasts that we have partaken of spiritually already, and a great many scriptures, such as work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. He is the forerunner beyond the veil, meaning first.

First means there must be more to FOLLOW, not more already there. This body is the means of getting there, for without it there is no flesh to lay down, which is why they (without bodies) cannot be made perfect or complete. Now I know that we are already one with Him in Spirit, but it's the rest of our triune being that must come into union with Him in reality = Truth. This is how He showed me we are to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, ie. we are by the power of His Spirit, making heaven and earth come into agreement/covenant/oneness.

Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, but it takes both the old covenant (12 tribe names/natures = sacrifice of flesh) and the new (12 apostles names/natures = obedience of Spirit) to produce the new DAY, the DAY OF THE LORD, the day of no part darkness. Halleluyah!

[Taffy]

:cloud9: For me, a thousand years is as a day, and a day here is the day of the Lord which is a day of no part darkness, which is Christ Himself. What He gave me concerning days is this below, and it's quite long, but it takes it to make the point.

There are 4 parts to the soul of man, which correspond to the 4 rivers that came out of the garden, the four corners of our earth (man was taken from the dust/earth). The four parts are mind, will, emotions and desires. When He said He would call them out of the four corners of the earth, He also meant out of OUR ways to be centered into His ways, our new heart, the mind of Christ. These 4 become one AGAIN in Revelation, thru the processing of the walking out of the cross. The desire of all nations shall come, and is coming now.

There are four horns on the altar because of this, on which we are tied down with cords of love which cannot be broken. Horns mean power. These 4 horns, make up one of the crowns we must lay down (on the altar). The crowns had points or "horns"; each point or ray, (think of her crown in Rev.) meant that the one who wore it was given dominion over that kingdom, which is what the points stood for. This is also why there were 4 watches in night, which were composed of 3 hours each, so 3 times 4 = 12, the twelve hours of darkness. So there are 4 parts to the nighttime/darkness of our souls.

The name/natures/life experiences of 12 tribes are part of the Christ that is formed in us; so are the name/natures/life experiences of the 12 apostles. What John saw took place IN THE TEMPLE. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost?"

These 2 (two is the number of witness) twelves, are the 24 elders around the throne. Our heart becomes His throne, when He is ruling in it completely. Interestingly, when you look up the word for elder, it runs into a meaning of "rays", as in rays of light, and horns, as above.

Those under the old covenant represent the 12 hours of darkness, for their light (the Christ) had not yet come. They are the walls/gates of of the city = the depth and height. The priests ate the shewbread and bread speaks of the Word. We are a priestly nation, a peculiar or chosen people, who are called to eat the bread in the light of the candlestick (the Spirit of Christ). Each one of their names means something spiritually to us. For example, Judah means praise and it is in the inner court experience of the baptism in the Spirit, that we learn what it means to praise God thru our spirits. Simeon, means to hear, and it is also hear that we learn to listen for the voice of our Father.

The 12 apostles represent the 12 hours of light, and are the foundation of the city = width and breadth. 12 times 12 =144,000 which is the government of God established in the earth (Adam was taken from the dust of the earth) with the Christ, which is the Chief cornerstone. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH, as it is in heaven. G-d changes the lump before He changes the whole; He doesn't change the world, then change the individuals. He changes the individuals from the inside out, THEN He will use them to change the world.

Together, with the light of the Christ, they make up the new DAY of the Lord (12 plus 12 = 24), when the day star arises in our hearts, to sit upon His throne in us. Another way to say it is, when He resurrects IN US, having put all powers and principalities IN US, under His feet (His foundation), IN US. This is the full measure and stature of Christ. This soulish body is the tomb He lays in and we want this millstone, the carnal mind that has bound us to the works of the flesh governed over by the yoke of the law, to give up the ghost, so that the hand of God can move it out of it's place, breaking this, the last seal on the tomb, so that He can resurrect up out of the flesh of us. The last enemy to be overcome is DEATH.

This is why John lost his head. The Lord told me that He has been forming these natures of the Christ of these 24, and that they have been entering the ark, by TWO'S, and that John comes to bring Benjamin, the son of my right hand, the finishing work. John is the friend of the bridegroom because he hears the voice of the bridegroom, and his voice comes to do just what John the beloved, the revelator/the unveiler, did.

Which is; pronounce the judgments upon the flesh/church/woman covering up the Christ/son, which is keeping the veil of this flesh from being rent, ie. the child from being born. Why is he the friend of the bridegroom? No greater LOVE than any man than this, that he lay down his life (the soulish life) for his friend. He said that he hears His voice and for this reasons his joy is full.

His joy is full because if the part of the Christ of John the beloved has been formed in us, then He can speak what needs to be spoken to RELEASE the Lord from our midst! Halleluah! The friend of the bridegroom comes to bring forth the bride, ie. the redeemed soul that He can come forth thru and in, the wheel within a wheel. Joy cometh in the morning, because the day star arises in the morning. It is righteous (outer court), peace (inner court) and joy (Holy of Holies).

For our ashes, He gives us beauty. The altar had a grate (corresponds to the lattice in Song of Sol. = in-part), and this is why those souls were stated to be UNDER the altar in Rev., crying not for vengeance as the blood of Adam would dictate, but asking when the rest of their brethren (which is all humanity) would be killed as they were, ie. consumed by Him as by fire, His love. In the previous chapter, it states these are those that are REDEEMED from among men. These are those (us, God willing) that take place in the first resurrection, loving not our lives (soulish life, ie. the life the soul thinks it has, which is really death, for to be carnally minded is death) unto the death (of the cross = 4 horns of altar).

Everything He did we walk out spiritually; if it were not so, and we were there already by virtue of Him doing it all, then we would have to take out all the feasts that we have partaken of spiritually already, and a great many scriptures, such as work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. He is the forerunner beyond the veil, meaning first.

First means there must be more to FOLLOW, not more already there. This body is the means of getting there, for without it there is no flesh to lay down, which is why they (without bodies) cannot be made perfect or complete. Now I know that we are already one with Him in Spirit, but it's the rest of our triune being that must come into union with Him in reality = Truth. This is how He showed me we are to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, ie. we are by the power of His Spirit, making heaven and earth come into agreement/covenant/oneness.

Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, but it takes both the old covenant (12 tribe names/natures = sacrifice of flesh) and the new (12 apostles names/natures = obedience of Spirit) to produce the new DAY, the DAY OF THE LORD, the day of no part darkness. Halleluyah!

AWESOME POST..... :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[Doc]

:cloud9: For me, a thousand years is as a day, and a day here is the day of the Lord which is a day of no part darkness, which is Christ Himself. What He gave me concerning days is this below, and it's quite long, but it takes it to make the point.

There are 4 parts to the soul of man, which correspond to the 4 rivers that came out of the garden, the four corners of our earth (man was taken from the dust/earth). The four parts are mind, will, emotions and desires. When He said He would call them out of the four corners of the earth, He also meant out of OUR ways to be centered into His ways, our new heart, the mind of Christ. These 4 become one AGAIN in Revelation, thru the processing of the walking out of the cross. The desire of all nations shall come, and is coming now.

There are four horns on the altar because of this, on which we are tied down with cords of love which cannot be broken. Horns mean power. These 4 horns, make up one of the crowns we must lay down (on the altar). The crowns had points or "horns"; each point or ray, (think of her crown in Rev.) meant that the one who wore it was given dominion over that kingdom, which is what the points stood for. This is also why there were 4 watches in night, which were composed of 3 hours each, so 3 times 4 = 12, the twelve hours of darkness. So there are 4 parts to the nighttime/darkness of our souls.

The name/natures/life experiences of 12 tribes are part of the Christ that is formed in us; so are the name/natures/life experiences of the 12 apostles. What John saw took place IN THE TEMPLE. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost?"

These 2 (two is the number of witness) twelves, are the 24 elders around the throne. Our heart becomes His throne, when He is ruling in it completely. Interestingly, when you look up the word for elder, it runs into a meaning of "rays", as in rays of light, and horns, as above.

Those under the old covenant represent the 12 hours of darkness, for their light (the Christ) had not yet come. They are the walls/gates of of the city = the depth and height. The priests ate the shewbread and bread speaks of the Word. We are a priestly nation, a peculiar or chosen people, who are called to eat the bread in the light of the candlestick (the Spirit of Christ). Each one of their names means something spiritually to us. For example, Judah means praise and it is in the inner court experience of the baptism in the Spirit, that we learn what it means to praise God thru our spirits. Simeon, means to hear, and it is also hear that we learn to listen for the voice of our Father.

The 12 apostles represent the 12 hours of light, and are the foundation of the city = width and breadth. 12 times 12 =144,000 which is the government of God established in the earth (Adam was taken from the dust of the earth) with the Christ, which is the Chief cornerstone. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH, as it is in heaven. G-d changes the lump before He changes the whole; He doesn't change the world, then change the individuals. He changes the individuals from the inside out, THEN He will use them to change the world.

Together, with the light of the Christ, they make up the new DAY of the Lord (12 plus 12 = 24), when the day star arises in our hearts, to sit upon His throne in us. Another way to say it is, when He resurrects IN US, having put all powers and principalities IN US, under His feet (His foundation), IN US. This is the full measure and stature of Christ. This soulish body is the tomb He lays in and we want this millstone, the carnal mind that has bound us to the works of the flesh governed over by the yoke of the law, to give up the ghost, so that the hand of God can move it out of it's place, breaking this, the last seal on the tomb, so that He can resurrect up out of the flesh of us. The last enemy to be overcome is DEATH.

This is why John lost his head. The Lord told me that He has been forming these natures of the Christ of these 24, and that they have been entering the ark, by TWO'S, and that John comes to bring Benjamin, the son of my right hand, the finishing work. John is the friend of the bridegroom because he hears the voice of the bridegroom, and his voice comes to do just what John the beloved, the revelator/the unveiler, did.

Which is; pronounce the judgments upon the flesh/church/woman covering up the Christ/son, which is keeping the veil of this flesh from being rent, ie. the child from being born. Why is he the friend of the bridegroom? No greater LOVE than any man than this, that he lay down his life (the soulish life) for his friend. He said that he hears His voice and for this reasons his joy is full.

His joy is full because if the part of the Christ of John the beloved has been formed in us, then He can speak what needs to be spoken to RELEASE the Lord from our midst! Halleluah! The friend of the bridegroom comes to bring forth the bride, ie. the redeemed soul that He can come forth thru and in, the wheel within a wheel. Joy cometh in the morning, because the day star arises in the morning. It is righteous (outer court), peace (inner court) and joy (Holy of Holies).

For our ashes, He gives us beauty. The altar had a grate (corresponds to the lattice in Song of Sol. = in-part), and this is why those souls were stated to be UNDER the altar in Rev., crying not for vengeance as the blood of Adam would dictate, but asking when the rest of their brethren (which is all humanity) would be killed as they were, ie. consumed by Him as by fire, His love. In the previous chapter, it states these are those that are REDEEMED from among men. These are those (us, God willing) that take place in the first resurrection, loving not our lives (soulish life, ie. the life the soul thinks it has, which is really death, for to be carnally minded is death) unto the death (of the cross = 4 horns of altar).

Everything He did we walk out spiritually; if it were not so, and we were there already by virtue of Him doing it all, then we would have to take out all the feasts that we have partaken of spiritually already, and a great many scriptures, such as work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. He is the forerunner beyond the veil, meaning first.

First means there must be more to FOLLOW, not more already there. This body is the means of getting there, for without it there is no flesh to lay down, which is why they (without bodies) cannot be made perfect or complete. Now I know that we are already one with Him in Spirit, but it's the rest of our triune being that must come into union with Him in reality = Truth. This is how He showed me we are to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, ie. we are by the power of His Spirit, making heaven and earth come into agreement/covenant/oneness.

Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, but it takes both the old covenant (12 tribe names/natures = sacrifice of flesh) and the new (12 apostles names/natures = obedience of Spirit) to produce the new DAY, the DAY OF THE LORD, the day of no part darkness. Halleluyah!

Wow, Card. I'm not sure that answers my question, but wow. When you say what John saw occurred in the temple, are you referring to Revelation there?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, Doc....and good to see those blue daisies rolling out again, Taffy...... :bigGrin:

[Doc]

:cloud9: Yes, Doc....and good to see those blue daisies rolling out again, Taffy...... :bigGrin:

So... does that mean that everything in Revelation occurs in the temple which temple you are?  :mshock:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The inward must be manifested before the outward can be changed. The first line of Revelation (not plural) is, the revelation of JESUS CHRIST. Where is He now? Is it not Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory? It is Babylon that had us looking outside ourselves for Christ to appear. Blessings....

[Doc]

:cloud9: The inward must be manifested before the outward can be changed. The first line of Revelation (not plural) is, the revelation of JESUS CHRIST. Where is He now? Is it not Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory? It is Babylon that had us looking outside ourselves for Christ to appear. Blessings....

Right... I think I'm understanding, and this is jiving with other stuff I've been being shown. Just hadn't made those connections yet. I'm going to copy and paste that long post of yours into a word document, print it out, try to find the scriptures that go along with it and just meditate on it for awhile. I want to see what else God shows me from that excellent post of yours!

Blessings  :cloud9:

[Taffy]

:cloud9: Yes, Doc....and good to see those blue daisies rolling out again, Taffy...... :bigGrin:

So... does that mean that everything in Revelation occurs in the temple which temple you are?  :mshock:

SPEAKS of the hidden ( inner) man Doc... :icon_flower:.
THE HIDDEN mystery :icon_flower:
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;


Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;


Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

:cloud9: The inward must be manifested before the outward can be changed. The first line of Revelation (not plural) is, the revelation of JESUS CHRIST. Where is He now? Is it not Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory? It is Babylon that had us looking outside ourselves for Christ to appear. Blessings....

Yes, but if Christ is manifesting in you, I can look outside myself and see him. :HeartThrob:

[Nathan]

Card, what a great foundational revelation you've just laid out there for us.  Beautifully written, wonderfully explained.  I'm going to do the same thing Doc mentioned . . .I'm going to paste this over to a word doc . . .but I'm  . .no offense Doc . . .but I'm not looking to "prove" it through Scripture . . .I'm looking to plant it in my church . .hand it out . . .let the word in them testify to it's truths that you've generously shared.

Thank you again for this Card.  It's a wonderful reality that God is bringing us into . .and it's an honor to be a part of this new body . . .regenerated in the newness of the Day of the Lord . . .

I think now, that this is very much the reason why before any revelating began with John, Jesus first ascended him into the temple . . .to show us that all of these things happening from that point on . . .are not things happening on the earth as much as they are things happening in us . . .even though things did happen on the earth pertaining to that which was revealed there . .but our emphasis is not on the natural but in the spiritual.

The natural reacts to the spiritual.  What happens in this realm is a result of what's finished in the Spirit realm.  At least that's the original order in us that I believe God originally intended. 

The thousand year issus is not a measurement of time, but it's a realm of God . . .it's the Holy of holies . . .it's the dimension of rest . .it's the revelation of the heart of God in man.  It's the Sabbath day . .it's Christ . . .always and forever . . .Christ and him alone.

[Doc]

Card, what a great foundational revelation you've just laid out there for us.  Beautifully written, wonderfully explained.  I'm going to do the same thing Doc mentioned . . .I'm going to paste this over to a word doc . . .but I'm  . .no offense Doc . . .but I'm not looking to "prove" it through Scripture . . .I'm looking to plant it in my church . .hand it out . . .let the word in them testify to it's truths that you've generously shared.

Thank you again for this Card.  It's a wonderful reality that God is bringing us into . .and it's an honor to be a part of this new body . . .regenerated in the newness of the Day of the Lord . . .

I think now, that this is very much the reason why before any revelating began with John, Jesus first ascended him into the temple . . .to show us that all of these things happening from that point on . . .are not things happening on the earth as much as they are things happening in us . . .even though things did happen on the earth pertaining to that which was revealed there . .but our emphasis is not on the natural but in the spiritual.

The natural reacts to the spiritual.  What happens in this realm is a result of what's finished in the Spirit realm.  At least that's the original order in us that I believe God originally intended. 

The thousand year issus is not a measurement of time, but it's a realm of God . . .it's the Holy of holies . . .it's the dimension of rest . .it's the revelation of the heart of God in man.  It's the Sabbath day . .it's Christ . . .always and forever . . .Christ and him alone.

No offense taken. I only mentioned it, not to attempt to "prove" it in scripture, but rather to help me see it in the context of the scriptural backdrop and interconnections. Sort of attempting to put all the pieces together in one big picture. Mostly an exercise for me, really. It made me realize just how shallow my scriptural knowledge still is. There's just so much in Cardinal's post, and I want to be able to see it through the lens of scripture as well as directly through the Spirit as shared here.  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: PTL Nathan.......and I knew what you meant, Doc. Blessings to ya guys.... :HeartThrob: