How do I deal with people who say there's no afterlife?

[Andromeda_Organa]

I've been reading comments on YouTube about people saying that there's no afterlife- that people experience nothing when they die. It really challenges my faith, and it makes everything I have, despite my talking to God and the promises of Scripture, fall apart :thumbdown: How do I push these thoughts away? Are these satanic attacks?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I've been reading comments on YouTube about people saying that there's no afterlife- that people experience nothing when they die. It really challenges my faith, and it makes everything I have, despite my talking to God and the promises of Scripture, fall apart :thumbdown: How do I push these thoughts away? Are these satanic attacks?

Maybe a question you should ask is what bothers you most about the religious structure your in?

I went through a similar process as you and the truth is that I started to see how little truth I was being taught within churches that I attended.  Perhaps it is not your own faith that your questioning,  but what you continually are told in churches and such.

[MacPherson]

I've been reading comments on YouTube about people saying that there's no afterlife- that people experience nothing when they die. It really challenges my faith, and it makes everything I have, despite my talking to God and the promises of Scripture, fall apart :thumbdown: How do I push these thoughts away? Are these satanic attacks?

Of course they're attacks. Or watching that sort of stuff can make you vulnerable to attacks. Discouragement is a great weapon. I know, I've ventured places I shouldn't have been in. One thing I know at this point. If I keep at building up my faith, eventually there is nothing, no clip, no article, no book that will have any effect on me. Right now, I'm still a little too vulnerable. This is geeky of me, but you'll like it since you're a writer. In J.R.R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion, the chief villain, Morgoth,  had a dragon that he bread. Well, the dragon went out to do battle before he was fully mature, before his scales had grown strong enough. It didn't go too well and Morgoth admonished the dragon for being too impatient and venturing out while still vulnerable. Once the dragon was fully mature he was virtually invincible.

I think spiritual armor is like that dragon's scales. It has to grow and develop with us as we mature until it becomes hard as steel. Right now you and I have too much of a plastic shell.
Stick with things thatwill build your faith. Watch those same clips a year from now, and I'll bet you see how hollow they are. That's what I'm counting on, regarding some of the areas I ventured into before I was ready.

[sparrow]

Great post, Brian.
I liked the dragon story... it was perfect.
Totally hit the nail on the head.

If a person's beliefs were "rock solid strong" from the very start, I would question the depth of their beliefs.
For your beliefs to be strong, for your faith to be real... you kind of have to be pulled this way and that and have your beliefs torn apart and put back together again, and torn apart and put back together again. How do muscles become strong?? Certainly by not just letting them sit there doing nothing. They have to be exercised. They have to be literally TORN, and rebuilt. Every time muscle tissue is torn and rebuilt, your muscle becomes stronger. Just like your beliefs. That's the way it should be, otherwise it wouldn't be real. After you've experienced getting STRONGER after being torn apart a few times... your faith grows. It's just the way it is. It's the way it works.
Expect to go through this many times.
No worries. Just keep searching for truth and keep asking God for help.

peace to ya,  :HeartThrob:

[MacPherson]

One more thing to take into consideration. My cousin Dave, who is 60 and has had a deep and abiding, yet simple faith in the Lord most of his life, says he would love and serve the Lord no less if there wasn't an afterlife. This is where we go from our natural instinct of "what's in it for me?", to a sanctification process in which serving the Lord out of love surpasses our personal interest, desires and needs. I look forward to getting closer and closer myself, one baby step at a time. BTW, Dave is more relaxed and fun to be with now, than he used to be (not that he wasn't a great guy in the past). It's that he's gotten more and more mellow with sanctification. We had a blast last weekend running around Los Angeles sightseeing (he wore me out, so use it or loose it folks). So sanctification does not lead to becoming stern and humorless.

[Nathan]

One more thing to take into consideration. My cousin Dave, who is 60 and has had a deep and abiding, yet simple faith in the Lord most of his life, says he would love and serve the Lord no less if there wasn't an afterlife. This is where we go from our natural instinct of "what's in it for me?", to a sanctification process in which serving the Lord out of love surpasses our personal interest, desires and needs. I look forward to getting closer and closer myself, one baby step at a time. BTW, Dave is more relaxed and fun to be with now, than he used to be (not that he wasn't a great guy in the past). It's that he's gotten more and more mellow with sanctification. We had a blast last weekend running around Los Angeles sightseeing (he wore me out, so use it or loose it folks). So sanctification does not lead to becoming stern and humorless.

Amen Brian . . . this relationship we have with Christ shouldn't be on a conditional basis . . .rewards or no rewards . . .

But even then . . . when it's Christ in you making the decisions, the end result won't matter . . .because "I'm" not the one calling the shots in my life anymore . . .Christ is. 

[MacPherson]

Amen Brian . . . this relationship we have with Christ shouldn't be on a conditional basis . . .rewards or no rewards . . .

But even then . . . when it's Christ in you making the decisions, the end result won't matter . . .because "I'm" not the one calling the shots in my life anymore . . .Christ is. 

Why is this something we have difficulty with?
Lets see, who is better at running my life, me, or the Creator of the universe? Himmm..... :Chinscratch:

[martincisneros]

How do I deal with people who say there's no afterlife?

Show them all that God in Christ has for them for this life: spirit, soul, body, financially, socially; peace, wisdom, protection, health, fitness, abundance of wealth, a new name, and His choice(s) of a new family!

[Nancy]

Hi ya AO,

I love reading about near death experiences because they are so full of hope.  But I don't read the hell ones though because I do not want to be depressed. I try to stick to the positive ones.  Even the hell ones are full of hope in that when the person has prayed to God, they suddenly emerge into the light. So there is always hope.  God said that he will not leave your soul in sheol (translated hell) and even if you go there He is also there!!
To me they are too convincing to be poo poohed away.  Things like the person could see the dust on the top of the lights as they floated to the top of the ceiling or could see objects outside their room window and it was confirmed later on!!!
And I certainly don't believe they are satanic. Not at all!
I believe that scripture saying that satan can appear as an angel of light is taken out of context.

Godbless
Nancy

[Molly]

Messengers from Heaven: Do you believe in angels?
As It Stands by Dave Stancliff/For the Times-Standard
Posted: 02/08/2009 01:27:34 AM PST



Hospital security cameras clearly showed a glowing light shaped like an angel (wings and all), standing by the dying teenage girl's bed. As I watched this supernatural event on television recently, I was struck by the fact that the commentator didn't sound skeptical.

Instead, he told us this teenager was given up for dead by her doctors and taken off a life-support system. Her mother, who never left her side, had pulled out her cell phone camera and taken pictures of the mysterious light.

Was it a miracle? After the angel disappeared, the girl showed rapid improvement and eventually, completely recovered from her illness, mystifying doctors, nurses, and her mother. There was no medical reason for her recovery. The only thing all viewers could agree on was the glowing light looked a lot like an angel.

http://www.times-standard.com/davestancliff/ci_11657447



14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

--Heb 1

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks Molly....I totally believe in angels and I love stories like this. Stands to reason, if the OT had them appear and we have a better covenant than them, then we must of a necessity have as much and more of the spiritual realities of God's kingdom.

When I was praying one time with a few friends, we were standing holding hands and I distinctly felt like a cool breeze come past me and the touch of a wing on my arm. I opened my eyes and looked for a source, it was spring but her doors and windows were not open. Just then one of the others said she saw angel walk around us. I had not told anyone what I felt.

I also had a friend who swears she had a man come up to her in a restaurant, who was walking with a cane, slowly. He spoke something to her she knew was from God, and when she turned her head for a second, he was gone. She searched the entire restaurant, the outside of the restaurant, and could not find him. He just seemed to disappear and no one else saw him. Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

Any pics of that angel?

(http://64.13.129.136/pics/up-G4NSALCS7BK6QEMA)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: If you're talking to me, no. But I did see a picture of one years ago. A woman brought it in to my friend's church. She and her family were camping and around the campfire at night, one of them took pictures. There was about a 7-8 foot angel that appeared behind the kids in the picture. Blessings....

[martincisneros]

I know someone in Christ that people report seeing his angel with him on a really regular basis to where it's intimidated some people from getting to know him.  I've teasingly thought that it was more likely his breath from the local Lebanese restaurants with all of that pesto, basil, oregano, etc.  But folks swear that it's for real that they see this really big dude from the Mr Clean Commercials around him all of the time.  I personally see angels all of the time, but I've never seen Mr Clean, except in commercials, various ads and coupons, and on google images.  A lot of people tend to report being intimidated by the angels they've seen because they've allegedly seen some massive ones that make us look like grasshoppers as the old saying goes.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I forgot about this true story until I read yours Martin. A friend of mine's son went to prison over drugs. While in there, he was "radically saved", and read his Bible constantly, was baptized in there in the HG, talked to God all the time. He told his mother that the inmates would firebomb anyone they had a problem with, when they were trapped in their cells. So this huge muscle-bound inmate had a problem with him because he prevented him from raping a new young inmate when he first arrived, by telling the young man right in front of him, why he was trying to "befriend" him.

One day the inmate threw a firebomb in his cell and it just went out on it's own. Another day out in the yard, the inmate was so angry with him when he started to tell him about Jesus (after the inmate had approached him telling him he was going to kill him), that when the inmate started to draw back his arm to hit him with his fist, he couldn't.

The inmate stood there, and kept trying to pull his bent arm forward, until it dawned on him when he looked around, and saw that no one visible was holding it, but for sure, it was being held. He turned white, and ran away. He never bothered him again. A year later her son was freed. Blessings....

[MacPherson]

Any pics of that angel?

(http://64.13.129.136/pics/up-G4NSALCS7BK6QEMA)

Is that a picture of two eagles kissing?

[MacPherson]

I know someone in Christ that people report seeing his angel with him on a really regular basis to where it's intimidated some people from getting to know him.  I've teasingly thought that it was more likely his breath from the local Lebanese restaurants with all of that pesto, basil, oregano, etc.  But folks swear that it's for real that they see this really big dude from the Mr Clean Commercials around him all of the time.  I personally see angels all of the time, but I've never seen Mr Clean, except in commercials, various ads and coupons, and on google images.  A lot of people tend to report being intimidated by the angels they've seen because they've allegedly seen some massive ones that make us look like grasshoppers as the old saying goes.

What an amazing coincidence. Mine looks like the White Knight from the Ajax commercials.

[martincisneros]

:cloud9: I forgot about this true story until I read yours Martin. A friend of mine's son went to prison over drugs. While in there, he was "radically saved", and read his Bible constantly, was baptized in there in the HG, talked to God all the time. He told his mother that the inmates would firebomb anyone they had a problem with, when they were trapped in their cells. So this huge muscle-bound inmate had a problem with him because he prevented him from raping a new young inmate when he first arrived, by telling the young man right in front of him, why he was trying to "befriend" him.

One day the inmate threw a firebomb in his cell and it just went out on it's own. Another day out in the yard, the inmate was so angry with him when he started to tell him about Jesus (after the inmate had approached him telling him he was going to kill him), that when the inmate started to draw back his arm to hit him with his fist, he couldn't.

The inmate stood there, and kept trying to pull his bent arm forward, until it dawned on him when he looked around, and saw that no one visible was holding it, but for sure, it was being held. He turned white, and ran away. He never bothered him again. A year later her son was freed. Blessings....

More Christians would walk in that if they'd keep the commandment of love as being a commandment instead of a suggestion.  But while they're insubordinate to their Commander and Chief, Christ Jesus, not a lot that He can do to protect them.  Keeping the commandment of love is how to get the most productivity out of the shield of faith.  Otherwise, is the shield of faith supposed to quench your firey darts or theirs?  Gets confusing in the spirit when you're behaving, speaking, and thinking like the Enemy.  What's sad are the number of people born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word that live as enemies of the Cross, children of disobedience, and children of darkness.  They have a Covenant with God in Christ that everything that Jesus is, they already are; everything Jesus has become, so will they -- and yet, when they open their mouths, it's nothing but the hissing of a serpent.  Total duplicity, which the book of James said can't happen.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow, Martin, God is just using you to bring things to my remembrance for sure. When I read your post He brought something else back. I was driving to Indy one day in my little Ford Escort on a State road, and there was a black new pick up in front of me. There was also a old man on a riding mower in front of us who came up on the bank of the road and the guy in the pick up hit the panic button and decided that the man on the mower was going to come into the road, and he slammed on his brakes.

Well, I had a stick shift, and in a split second, I hit the brake but not the clutch so the car died and spun a 180 out of control (a white car in the oncoming lane dodged my front grill as I spun around in their lane) and went flying backwards down the bank of the old man's yard, where I came to a stop.

Now the amazing thing is, the Lord had me to pray and thank Him for my angels, only 5 minutes before this happened, something He had never told me to do before that moment. Even more amazing, when I got out, I discovered I had gone flying backwards between a steel post and 4 foot-in-diameter tree, and there wasn't 3 inches of leeway space between the two, a fact that was proven to me as the old man had to help me  steer the car forward BACK thru the way I came into his yard, after I stopped shaking and praising God.

A few weeks later, when I was on this same road with my husband I showed him where I had gone flying thru backwards, and he swore up and down it couldn't have happened because it was so tight. Nevertheless, it did and neither I nor the car, had a scratch on us, glory be to God. Blessings....

[fire walker]

/quote]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I agree the commandment of Love is the shield and the truth is the double edged  sword that cuts clean in all directions.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Doc]

Well that's a tricky question, because we can't even seem to agree on what the afterlife looks like.

This is something I'm actually struggling with personally; not how to deal with those who don't believe in an "afterlife", but being settled in my heart about what that actually is. We seem to have two major camps on this; one group that says that upon death, we sleep (are unconscious) until the resurrection, and we don't know when this will be. The other group says that no, we are instantly transported into some sort of awareness immediately upon death (sometimes citing evidence from NDE's). This view is espoused by most of mainstream Christianity, including ET'ers.

Now, the trouble (for me) is, the first group seems to have the stronger biblical arguments; however, something still doesn't sit quite  right with me about that...  :sigh:

Particularly since I feel like the Lord is showing me that "heaven" is not a place you go when you die, but rather the kingdom of heaven is a state that you can enter into (however partially) even while still living in this body of flesh. (The kingdom of heaven does not come with observation, but is in our hearts.) There are many issues that touch on this, and perhaps this is a topic for another thread.

Any help, particularly from the scripture would be appreciated.

[Cardinal]

Particularly since I feel like the Lord is showing me that "heaven" is not a place you go when you die, but rather the kingdom of heaven is a state that you can enter into (however partially) even while still living in this body of flesh. (The kingdom of heaven does not come with observation, but is in our hearts.)

:cloud9: Amen... :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

I personally don't beleive we enter into a state of unconscious nothingness until a resurrection . . .that would mean "we're" to be resurrected twice . .once upon salvation now, and yet again on the other side of the veil of this life.  If I were to use Scripture . . . I really sort of came to an understanding when I saw Hebrews 11 and 12 after the transformation from religion into relationship . . .dealing with the cloud of witnesses. . . .

I'm throwing in the entire chapter of Hebrews 11 here . . .because it's all building up to Hebrews 12 . . .notice all the name dropping . . .

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  2For by it the elders obtained a good report.  3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.  5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.  8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.  9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.  14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.  15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.  16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,  18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:  19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.  20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.  21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.  24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;  26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.  27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.  28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.  29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.  30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.  32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.  34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.  35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:  36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:  37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;  38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:  40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Okay, there's a ton of stuff in there, but the over all message that the author is emphasizing is the power of faith . . .the ability to see the things that can't be seen. (verse 3).  That's why I also believe it's not about what you can prove in Scripture, but what God has revealed to your spirit "through" Scripture.  It's not about what can be seen in print, but what can be seen in the spirit beneath the surface of the print . . ."that" to me is what faith is .  . . seeing what can't be seen and calling it out as though it already is.  It's even one of the gifts of the spirit given to the church . .the gift of Faith.

I also liked the part where Abraham was searching for a city not made by human hands (verse 10). . .that's a pretty deep concept.  There's not any mention of this if you were to just read about Abraham in the Old Testament.

So as the author is building a platform of faith in using these patriarchs that went before us . . .seeing the fulfillment of the law, but not being able to be a part of that vision to manifest . . .where are all these saints of old now???

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,  2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We are enveloped by these guys . . .they're all around us . . .just as Elijah was enveloped by an invisible army . . .so are all of us . . .and when our loved ones pass on . . .I believe they join in with that army which can explain why often times people say when a loved one has passed on, they could swear that the person who crossed over is in the room . . .I believe now . . .that could very well be an accurate observation . .they "are" in the room . . .they're just in another dimension.  Where they are, spirit is dominant over flesh . . .flesh is invisible to them just as spirit is invisible to us . . .but again .  . . all of this is just personal convictions

[martincisneros]

I personally don't beleive we enter into a state of unconscious nothingness until a resurrection . . .that would mean "we're" to be resurrected twice . .once upon salvation now, and yet again on the other side of the veil of this life.

Exactly!  Jesus Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.  He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit, soul, and body with Him.  He went and prepared a place for us.  Stephen couldn't have seen what he saw, when he was being stoned, if he was about to turn into nothing more than stone until the resurrection.  Otherwise, he'd of been getting the same treatment as Lot's wife.  Our having a heavenly tabernacle at the moment of death, according to 2Corinthians 5 is a part of the ministry of reconcilation -- if we're walking by faith and not by sight.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I've shared this before, but here goes....(and I could share something else on this topic).....

When the sent me to OK for a month, He had me to go to a church initially, that had two brothers over it. The one was a pastor, the other a prophet. They were like night and day in personality. The pastor was reserved, the prophet was anything but. He had been a miracle of the Lord, because he was born blind, deaf and dumb and the Lord healed him over time. The night he spoke, he literally jumped on the backs of the pews and ran over them, and the anointing on him was more than tangible.

Anyway, they told this story. They had a made a bargain. The pastor would only speak to large groups, and if not many showed up, then the prophet was allowed to speak that night. One night they went to a church to minister and the pastor looked out thru the curtain, and seeing only 4 souls he let the prophet speak that night. The prophet went out, puzzled as to why his brother let him speak that night to a full house, but let the Lord have His way and cut loose. At the end, he was stunned to see their deceased father in the back row........and then all but the four his brother saw, disappeared as well. He had just preached to, so "great a cloud of witnesses." Blessings....