Healthcare

[Molly]

Obamacare Threatens U.S. Medical Education System

Sunday, November 1, 2009 6:18 PM

By: David A. Patten


The federal government will expand its role in training new doctors and nurses under the Democrats' healthcare reform proposals to the point that one prominent surgeon is warning of a federal "takeover" of medical education.

The HR 3962 reform bill that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi unveiled last week would provide billions in medical-education grants.

Some of those grants would help future doctors and nurses pay for their degrees in return for their participation in specific disciplines or programs.

Other grants would pay organizations to create educational and training programs under the auspices of the Department of Health and Human Services.

Democrats say the programs are a necessary aspect of bringing another 36 million individuals into the U.S. healthcare system.

The Association of American Medical Programs projects a shortage of between 124,000 and 159,000 physicians by 2025. Reform will aggravate that shortfall by an additional 25 percent, the association states.

"There is mounting evidence that a physician workforce shortage exists in primary care as well as in a number of other specialties," according to the association's report.

Opponents of healthcare reform warn that universal coverage under these circumstances can only lead to one thing: rationing of healthcare.

Fox News contributor and Newsmax pundit Dick Morris, for example, writes: "Because there will not be enough doctors, nurses, and medical equipment for the massive influx of patients under the Obama plan, there will be rationing, more draconian year after year."

Spending federal dollars to bolster training and education, and directing it toward fields in short supply, would seem one way to address that problem. But some medical experts see a darker intent behind the extensive, medical-education provisions in the reform bills that are now under consideration in the House and Senate.

Dr. Russell Blaylock, a board-certified neurosurgeon and author who is editor of the Blaylock Wellness Report published by Newsmax Media Inc., warns that reform proposals portend a "takeover of the entire medical-education system."

Blaylock told Newsmax he foresees the day when medical schools "will have to get federal approval, that they will appoint professors and set curriculum for the schools and they will direct residence and intern-training programs and set curriculum for these training programs."

He added, "Now, that means. . . federalization of medical education in the United States, which is the open door for federal medical license."

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/obama_healt_care_doctors/2009/11/01/280124.html


Increased federal involvement in medical education indicates that proponents of reform "are lying," and intend to socialize the healthcare sector, Blaylock told Newsmax. Healthcare accounts for approximately one-sixth of the nation's economy.

"If you look at the history of the socialization of medicine in every country in the world it all started the same way," he said. "It's piecemeal, where there's a group of people who are not covered, and all we are trying to do is cover them. Well, then there is another group that needs to be covered, so now we cover them. And then you say, 'Well, if those two groups are getting it, why should we do it for everybody else.'"

[Molly]

That said, it is possible to improve health care coverage without turning us into the USSR, as the current administration is want to do with this pending healthcare bill.  As for the rush rush rush--there is no rush because as I said, even if this passed tomorrow, there would be no relief for the uninsured until 2013, but medicare/medicaid would be slashed instantly to the tune of 500 billion dollars.

You see, they know we cannot afford what they are so glibly saying they are trying to do.

[WhiteWings]

That said, it is possible to improve health care coverage without turning us into the USSR, as the current administration is want to do with this pending healthcare bill.

I'm living in one of those USSR countries in your view I think.
For long healthcare was taken care of by .gov. Only those above middle class had to pay some extra. Since several year we started doing it USA style. Let the market do it's things. Costs rise about 10% each year...
I don't know about the USA but here the costs of health care can be greatly reduced by kicking half of the management.

[Molly]

That said, it is possible to improve health care coverage without turning us into the USSR, as the current administration is want to do with this pending healthcare bill.

I'm living in one of those USSR countries in your view I think.
For long healthcare was taken care of by .gov. Only those above middle class had to pay some extra. Since several year we started doing it USA style. Let the market do it's things. Costs rise about 10% each year...
I don't know about the USA but here the costs of health care can be greatly reduced by kicking half of the management.

Our nearest neighbor Canada has a socialist health care system.  They come here for health care if it is something serious and they can afford it.  There are plenty of news reports about rationing health care in socialist countries.

The biggest contributor to rising healthcare costs in this country are the lawyers and their lawsuits.  Doctors and hospitals have the burden of huge insurance policies which comes right off the bottom line before they are ever paid for their services.  If a doc has to pay 100,000 a year for insurance against lawsuits, what do you think he has to charge for his services?  But the democratic party is controlled by the legal lobby, so they won't even consider tort reform.  That alone would have an immediate effect on the price of healthcare and consequently on the price of healthcare premiums.

[WhiteWings]

That said, it is possible to improve health care coverage without turning us into the USSR, as the current administration is want to do with this pending healthcare bill.

I'm living in one of those USSR countries in your view I think.
For long healthcare was taken care of by .gov. Only those above middle class had to pay some extra. Since several year we started doing it USA style. Let the market do it's things. Costs rise about 10% each year...
I don't know about the USA but here the costs of health care can be greatly reduced by kicking half of the management.

Our nearest neighbor Canada has a socialist health care system.  They come here for health care if it is something serious and they can afford it.  There are plenty of news reports about rationing health care in socialist countries.

I can give you a 100% guarantee that when our healthcare was really socialist people never were turned away for anything. No matter the cost and/or duration of the treatment.
That was before the first steps to an open market were set.
Rationing and turning away people, for me, is the oposite of a socialist system. It's a sign of a market driven system.

The biggest contributor to rising healthcare costs in this country are the lawyers and their lawsuits.

Here that's as good as not existing.

[Molly]

I can give you a 100% guarantee that when our healthcare was really socialist people never were turned away for anything. No matter the cost and/or duration of the treatment.

Maybe you guys never get seriously ill because in other socialist countries it's a different story.  Now we are really into who lives and who dies.


Rationing care from limited funds

The NHS cannot, and never has been able to, offer every treatment to everyone who needs it.
The NHS is funded from taxes, and it spends more than £42bn every year - £779 for every person in the UK. But it is not a bottomless pit of funds and some treatments have to be restricted.

Raising taxes to pay for every possible need is politically unthinkable, as it would require a massive increase in income tax to raise enough revenue to make a significant difference to spending.

This means some treatments have to be restricted, or rationed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/251988.stm

[WhiteWings]

I can give you a 100% guarantee that when our healthcare was really socialist people never were turned away for anything. No matter the cost and/or duration of the treatment.

Maybe you guys never get seriously ill because in other socialist countries it's a different story.  Now we are really into who lives and who dies.

Yep, we a superhumans. Must be the cheese :laughing7:
And even the cheese eaters get decades of AIDs and cancer treatment to name just two. I think you are confusing socialist with communist.....

[Molly]

I can give you a 100% guarantee that when our healthcare was really socialist people never were turned away for anything. No matter the cost and/or duration of the treatment.

Maybe you guys never get seriously ill because in other socialist countries it's a different story.  Now we are really into who lives and who dies.

Yep, we a superhumans. Must be the cheese :laughing7:
And even the cheese eaters get decades of AIDs and cancer treatment to name just two. I think you are confusing socialist with communist.....

No I"m not confusing anything.  The same people who brought us Darwinian evolution as science now want to control our medical schools and who gets to be a doctor and who gets treatment and who doesn't.

I've talked to a lot of docs about this bill, and make no mistake, there will be a serious healthcare crisis in this country if it is passed because docs did not put 8 hard years into their education to have the govt tell them who they can treat and how.

[WhiteWings]

I've talked to a lot of docs about this bill, and make no mistake, there will be a serious healthcare crisis in this country if it is passed because docs did not put 8 hard years into their education to have the govt tell them who they can treat and how.

And because that's the state of things in the USA every other (socialist) .gov is doing the same? Is that what you are saying?

[Molly]

I've talked to a lot of docs about this bill, and make no mistake, there will be a serious healthcare crisis in this country if it is passed because docs did not put 8 hard years into their education to have the govt tell them who they can treat and how.

And because that's the state of things in the USA every other (socialist) .gov is doing the same? Is that what you are saying?

How clear can I make this to you? We are not a socialist country.  We are a constitutional Republic.  Even if we have not looked like that for years, that is what we are.  And, nowhere in my constitution does it say that Obama or his minions can decide who lives and who dies through rationed healthcare, or that the government has any business in healthcare to begin with.

Not that any of it matters, since they are making sure that we go broke first.

[WhiteWings]

I've talked to a lot of docs about this bill, and make no mistake, there will be a serious healthcare crisis in this country if it is passed because docs did not put 8 hard years into their education to have the govt tell them who they can treat and how.

And because that's the state of things in the USA every other (socialist) .gov is doing the same? Is that what you are saying?

How clear can I make this to you?

Perhaps by answering my questions. And then not assuming what Obama does or doesn't want to do means that's the standard for all other countries. Because that's a 100% false assumption.

[Molly]

I've talked to a lot of docs about this bill, and make no mistake, there will be a serious healthcare crisis in this country if it is passed because docs did not put 8 hard years into their education to have the govt tell them who they can treat and how.

And because that's the state of things in the USA every other (socialist) .gov is doing the same? Is that what you are saying?

How clear can I make this to you?

Perhaps by answering my questions. And then not assuming what Obama does or doesn't want to do means that's the standard for all other countries. Because that's a 100% false assumption.

I am not trying to make a standard for other countries.  I am trying to maintain the standard for my country which standard is the Constitution for the United States.

This standard is like Jesus is the standard for all Christians.  You compare everything to Jesus and then you know how much it is missing the mark.

This healthcare bill when compared to our Constitution misses the mark by a country mile.  We are talking here about putting 1/6th of our economy into the hands of the government.  This would make our founding fathers role over in their graves.  When has a government ever willfully given up its power once it has taken power to itself? Never.  The purpose of power is to perpetrate itself.

That is why our founders limited government on every side.

We are talking here about changing the very nature of our government.

[WhiteWings]

I've talked to a lot of docs about this bill, and make no mistake, there will be a serious healthcare crisis in this country if it is passed because docs did not put 8 hard years into their education to have the govt tell them who they can treat and how.

And because that's the state of things in the USA every other (socialist) .gov is doing the same? Is that what you are saying?

How clear can I make this to you?

Perhaps by answering my questions. And then not assuming what Obama does or doesn't want to do means that's the standard for all other countries. Because that's a 100% false assumption.

I am not trying to make a standard for other countries.  I am trying to maintain the standard for my country which standard is the Constitution for the United States.

And what was that standard say 10 years ago Molly? Did the homeless with a zero bankaccount got every possible treatment? In my country where at that time .gove controled close to 100% of healthcare everyone got the healthcare you they needed for as lonng as they needed. I'm speaking now for my own country. But know it is/was not dissimilar to other western European countries. Maybe Taffy and Sven can tell you about their country.
You know why we no longer have that type of healthcare? Because it was to good. The costs got out of control. Partly because socialism attrackts to much parasites.

[Molly]

Did the homeless with a zero bankaccount got every possible treatment? In my country where at that time .gove controled close to 100% of healthcare everyone got the healthcare you they needed for as lonng as they needed.

To the best of my knowledge, no homeless presenting themselves with a medical problem at an emergency room, has ever been turned away.  Our emergency rooms do not turn people away.

You know why we no longer have that type of healthcare? Because it was to good. The costs got out of control. Partly because socialism attrackts to much parasites.

Exactly.  So why even go there?

[WhiteWings]

Did the homeless with a zero bankaccount got every possible treatment? In my country where at that time .gove controled close to 100% of healthcare everyone got the healthcare you they needed for as lonng as they needed.

To the best of my knowledge, no homeless presenting themselves with a medical problem at an emergency room, has ever been turned away.  Our emergency rooms do not turn people away.

And when it not a emergency?
Headache. Sore tooth. Infected fingernail of that kind of minor stuff.

You know why we no longer have that type of healthcare? Because it was to good. The costs got out of control. Partly because socialism attrackts to much parasites.

Exactly.  So why even go there?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not a socialist. But it certainly has its good sides.
I can and do know. I don't have my info from a newspaper 2000 miles away. I have my info from living here all my life.

[Molly]

And when it not a emergency?
Headache. Sore tooth. Infected fingernail of that kind of minor stuff.

Headache could be signs of a serious medical problem.  Sore tooth could lead to a serious medical problem, as could infected fingernail.  Same answer as above.

We also have dental schools which offer free or inexpensive services.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not a socialist. But it certainly has its good sides.
I can and do know. I don't have my info from a newspaper 2000 miles away. I have my info from living here all my life.

You just told me socialism doesn't work--because of the parasites and because it costs too much money.  But, it's irrelevant.  I do not live in a socialist/communist country.  I live in a Constitutional Republic.  And, I'd like to keep it that way.

[WhiteWings]

You just told me socialism doesn't work--because of the parasites and because it costs too much money.

I'm not gonna bother answer that again. Sorry but you sounding like an ET with very narrow tunnel vision.
If you don't understand me just ask. If you have no clue what happens outside your borders. ask. But don't try to twist my words and use them against me. Won't work..

But, it's irrelevant.  I do not live in a socialist/communist country.  I live in a Constitutional Republic.  And, I'd like to keep it that way.

You genenalizing way and way to much Molly. Look at the map of Europe. Republics and kingdoms in various forms. Dunno how to say it buy inside a form of government other forms can fit.
A kingdom can be democatic or dictatorial. Far left or far right. When the US was founded there where 6 (?) diffrent parties. All their own idea's. And all part of America. So your constant mentioning "Constitutial Republic" doesn't really show your insight in the world goverments. I live in Constitutional Monarchy. The difference with the USA. Very very little.
Both our countries and leaders came into existance because of mass murder. You know. I never look at the label something has. I look what's under that label of nice words. And it's very very common to find slaves and slavedrivers under those label. Ofcourse you are free to totally disagree. :2c:

[Molly]

If you don't understand me just ask. If you have no clue what happens outside your borders. ask. But don't try to twist my words and use them against me. Won't work..

I thought I did understand your words.  Here are your words--


You know why we no longer have that type of healthcare? Because it was to good. The costs got out of control. Partly because socialism attrackts to much parasites.

You said that, not me, although I would agree that either it leads to rationing or it falls of its own weight [cost].  And, yes, socialism does attract parasites.

So your constant mentioning "Constitutial Republic" doesn't really show your insight in the world goverments. I live in Constitutional Monarchy. The difference with the USA. Very very little.

I am talking about a specific Constitution, our Constitution, not your Constitution.  And, besides that, we don't have a king, although not for lack of trying in recent times.

A Constitution can say anything, and I can guarantee you that your constitution does not look like ours.

[Raggedy Anne]

Just a reminder that their are more opinions as well as facts on the issue of Healthcare Reform than the talking points spouted by Miss Molly in her regular political rants.
There's links and more information laid out here for those who want to study the issue:

http://www.pleasecutthecrap.com/

[Molly]

Just a reminder that their are more opinions as well as facts on the issue of Healthcare Reform than the talking points spouted by Miss Molly in her regular political rants.
There's links and more information laid out here for those who want to study the issue:

http://www.pleasecutthecrap.com/

He's right about this much--

the fact is, more than 80% of the American people have health insurance.

As far as studying the issue, I thought we don't have time to study it.  Nancy Pelosi wants to pass a 2000 page bill [that changes daily] by Thanksgiving that no one will have even read completely through when/if it passes [including you, I might add].  And we can certainly expect them to dump an extra 500 pages on just hours before the vote because that has been their modus operandi.

Want to really in truth take time to study the problem?  I'm all for that.

[WhiteWings]

If you don't understand me just ask. If you have no clue what happens outside your borders. ask. But don't try to twist my words and use them against me. Won't work..

I thought I did understand your words.  Here are your words--


You know why we no longer have that type of healthcare? Because it was to good. The costs got out of control. Partly because socialism attrackts to much parasites.

I said that and I still see it that way. I'm not saying socialism is perfect. Or communism or kapitalism. Or..
You can't deny socialism sounds good: Help the weak. Or communism: All are equal.
But....! theory and reality are diffrent. Both systems possible work quite well. But they are driven to the extreme. Or get poluted by things that don't belong in that system.

You said that, not me, although I would agree that either it leads to rationing or it falls of its own weight [cost].  And, yes, socialism does attract parasites.

And in communism all are the same. As in equally poor. And that's exavtly the same as kapitalism driven to the extreme. You can work 15 hours a day for a slice of bread and the elite (the party in communism) downs in wealth.

So your constant mentioning "Constitutial Republic" doesn't really show your insight in the world goverments. I live in Constitutional Monarchy. The difference with the USA. Very very little.

I am talking about a specific Constitution, our Constitution, not your Constitution.  And, besides that, we don't have a king, although not for lack of trying in recent times.

I did mention your form of state didn't I?

A Constitution can say anything, and I can guarantee you that your constitution does not look like ours.

If that's true why is every socialism the same for you? Can't that exist in different forms.
And yes your worthless constitution of hollow words is different that our worthless constitution of hollow words.
I really don't understand why you even argue with me about this. You daily post something how stangled (almost) the whole world is by that Bilderberg clan. Do they live by the constitution? Think not. They bypass it whenever needed.
And that is why I say and keep saying 'hollow words'.
I don't mind if God Himself personally wrote the US constitution and triple checked it afterwards. Satan is running the show now. And case I've hurt your pride... satan runs the show on every part of the planet.
I think it was your quote: "The only time a politician doesn't lie is if he has to cover up a bigger lie"
And such people have to secure your constitution?
I think we both made our points.:Peace:

[Molly]

And yes your worthless constitution of hollow words is different that our worthless constitution of hollow words.

It's only worthless and hollow words if, as with the words of Jesus, men in their own minds make them of no effect with their worthless and hollow traditions.

But our Constitution is still the highest law in the land, no matter what men might try to do or say otherwise.  And, one day the people of this country are going to figure that out.

It's not pride you are seeing, it's hope.

[WhiteWings]

And yes your worthless constitution of hollow words is different that our worthless constitution of hollow words.

It's only worthless and hollow words if, as with the words of Jesus, men in their own minds make them of no effect with their worthless and hollow traditions.

Agreed. And sadly they did a very "good" job.

But our Constitution is still the highest law in the land, no matter what men might try to do or say otherwise.  And, one day the people of this country are going to figure that out.

And the constitution is never bypassed, twisted or plainly ignored. I think your answer is yes seeing your quote below.

It's not pride you are seeing, it's hope.

Then I hope you haven't put your hope on a politician.
You are meaning King of kings I assume.
Took only a dozen of messages and finally we (at least partly) agree :winkgrin:

[Taffy]

carry on guys..the second thread is intitled Healthcare :icon_flower:

[Seth]

This standard is like Jesus is the standard for all Christians.  You compare everything to Jesus and then you know how much it is missing the mark.

I am not making a case either way for socialized medicare or not.

However, if I compare a market driven healthcare system to Jesus, it looks very much unlike Christ. He didn't charge for healing. So when we get like THAT, where nobody pays, and everyone gives freely without expecting money in return because they don't need it, THEN it will look like Jesus. Sadly, that is not something either the market system or the single payer system can provide the people. It is only something that the Sons of God can provide.