Galatians 4

[shawn]

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

I see much here to glean but what occured to me today is this...within each of us is a child of the flesh and a child of divine promise.  The child of the flesh persecutes and taunts the child of divine promise.  We are told to send the child of flesh packing because he has no inheritance in the Kingdom.  I see this parrallel wheat/chaff...goats/sheep.  I'm really coming around to the idea that it isn't us vs them...we are the sheep and they are the goats and more that we all have both of these within us.  That judgment is within, and the burning fire of God is burning away all that would keep us from seeing the Kingdom of God.

[JulieTang84]

Wonder observation Shawn  :HeartThrob:

You have found the truth behind Jesus's words here.....

Jhn 3:3       Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Speaking of myself only, I can truly say that I am not the same person I was. I look the same, sound the same, but I am very different. I realized that there is "another" me, just a little light so to speak that is just begging to be heard. This was such a revelation and so calming.

I agree totally, that it isn't us or them. Who is not of God at the deepest level. We are all stumbling along, some with more difficulty than others, but each is on a journey home to "themselves." Because, I believe even so we have been reborn, we are still but babies.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[lomarah]

Love this thread. Awesome stuff here guys.  :cloud9:
Amen!

[Ross]

 :thumbsup:
We are going to be ruling angels.[ 1 Cor 6;3 ]. So our lessons need to be pretty in depth.
From personal experience I.M.O we seek to blame satan for everything wrong we have done, when it seems that we are trying to cover up our sins/mistakes.
This could well be part of why satan is sent away for 1000 years, just to clarify that the flesh was to blame for so many mistakes and attempts at personal recognition.
That also then seems to be why Christ had to come in the flesh to pay our price in full so that in the ages to come we will be of greater power and authority than the angels just like our amazing brother Christ. The very things talked about in Hebrews where Christ was a little lower than angels, before being raised above them.
Esau seems to be a pretty strong example of this as a representative of the flesh before the spirit which was Jacob.
Rom 9;11 " So that God's purpose would stand according to His choice, not because of works."
Esau in all of his attempts could not gain acceptance. This seems to highlight why we are to get rid of the flesh and accept that Christ has paid in full. Probably why Paul says he puts himself to death 2 Cor 1;9 " Indeed we had the sentence of death in ourselves that we should no longer trust in ourselves but in the God Who raises the dead."

Eph 4;22-24 " Regarding your former way of life you were taught to put away your old self, which is being corrupted and deluded by it's desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds and to put on the new self, created in God's likeness, created in the righteousness and holiness that comes from the truth."

The truth sets us free.

[shawn]

Beautiful insights everyone.

[WhiteWings]

We are told to send the child of flesh packing because he has no inheritance in the Kingdom.  I see this parrallel wheat/chaff...goats/sheep.  I'm really coming around to the idea that it isn't us vs them...we are the sheep and they are the goats and more that we all have both of these within us.  That judgment is within, and the burning fire of God is burning away all that would keep us from seeing the Kingdom of God.

Could very well be so. The strongest support for your view is gold. Everything you mentioned above can be seen as 2 different groups of people but refined gold is about 1 person being purified. Same for the God is a fuller's soap. One garment being cleaned. (the soap contained sulfer/brimstone).

Like always the above view can be ETified by assuming the gold is humanity and the dross that's refined out of the gold are sinners that will burn forever. That said I think gold, silver and garments fit nicely in your list.

[shawn]

Sorry I missed your response WW.  Good to see you back BTW.  I think you are right about the purification of gold.

[marie glen]

Very nice thread! and :iagree:

...it's my belief the 2nd resurrection 'catches up to' the 1st one! In joy and blessedness and in all things..

that the 2nd resurrection will be just as much "the children of God" as the 1st (of course!).. after a long day of review for all of us "in heaven and in earth".. (review/judgment/DOA)

..imo, the possibly only reason for the difference, in resurrections, that is, is for drama's sake.. this unavoidable journey and lesson we are upon is for teaching us all.. indeed, for deeply engraving upon every heart, mind and psyche..
After all, what is the best teacher? :smile:  (Escecially if "even the Son :surrender: learned obedience..")

[Ross]

Probably,IMO that the second is so that those who haven't heard in the first will then hear and see first hand for themselves. Also seems to explain why Christ had chosen for this age for some to know, not for all to know.
As you say, we are ALL children of God because of Christ. His efforts/works cover us all.

[WhiteWings]

But who is part of the 3rd resurrection?
The first 2 parallel the 2 out of 3 harvests.

[eaglesway]

Some of these things are only spoken of in brief. We can get interpretive glimpse and maybe even prophetic insights through the study of shadows and types and the words of the prophets and apostles, but IMO if John says, "Brethren, we know not yet what we shall but we know that we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is" and Paul says, "Now we see thru a glass darkly but then we shall know as we are known"......I have my doubts about how completely we are going to see the ages to come.

I think the "child of the flesh"  concept you speak of Shawn, along with the wheat and the tares is like an onion- like so many parables and prophecies, it applies on several levels, including the one of which you spoke.....but

If there is no literal application to things like, "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" and " among them we all to once walked in hostility of mind" or "for those who are in the flesh cannot please God"- if there is no "us" and no "them" then(imo) in the apostles were in the dark and full of a sort of infantile misunderstanding of the work that God is doing in the earth and I find that a little hard to swallow- for me it would make the scriptures of little or no worth, written by spiritual neanderthal's not yet really enlightened compared to us.

I have a hard time with that as well......but I do think that in the inward life of the believer, the principles you speak are clearly applicable.

I just don't think it is an "either/or" situation, I think it is all inclusive of the literal and figurative truth- and we know that God loves everyone, that Christ died for all- even those who are "outside" the household of faith living as adversaries toward God- who they do not see because the god of this world has blinded their eyes.

[mplsfitter539]

But who is part of the 3rd resurrection?
The first 2 parallel the 2 out of 3 harvests.

The 3rd IMO will be the ones in need of a more intense learning process. It parallels the harvest of over ripe grapes that are thrown into the wine press. The intense pressure draws out the valuable wine contained in the grapes.  :2c:

[jabcat]

I have a hard time with that as well......but I do think that in the inward life of the believer, the principles you speak are clearly applicable.  [OTOH] (addition mine) If there is no literal application to things like, "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" and " among them we all to once walked in hostility of mind" or "for those who are in the flesh cannot please God"- if there is no "us" and no "them" then(imo) in the apostles were in the dark and full of a sort of infantile misunderstanding of the work that God is doing in the earth and I find that a little hard to swallow- for me it would make the scriptures of little or no worth, written by spiritual neanderthal's not yet really enlightened compared to us.

Christ died for all- even those who are "outside" the household of faith living as adversaries toward God- who they do not see because the god of this world has blinded their eyes.

Agreed.  I believe there are spiritual applications to each individual believer on some level, as we all have HIS good works in us, while at the same time our own works that need burned to purification.       However, re: the "literal";  some sayings are "hard", but often what I personally wish and what the scriptures say are two different things.  I bang my head on that one often.      I believe it's clearly scriptural that some individuals are now sons of God, ONLY BY GRACE and according to God's will and timing, while other individuals are [currently] vessels of dishonor - both according to God's purposes, and no one "deserves" it or can boast.  Yet Jesus will bring all in, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses.  In the meantime, Paul gave these admonitions - "love your  neighbor as your self".."do good to all men, especially those of the household of faith" [brothers and sisters, children of God].

I John 3:1  See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we [the spiritually reborn, not everyone] should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now..no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.  Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil... 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God,

-------------
For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves.  It is the gift of God.

[jabcat]

On further reflection - although I personally don't believe saved-by-grace saints [though all still flawed] are one with the world, if anyone really wants to consider Sadam Hussein, Bin Ladin, or Kim Jung Il et all their spiritual brother in this life (pending their spiritual rebirth and purification after the last trump) - as Briscoe T. Darling on the Andy Griffith Show used to put it - "more power to 'ya".    :laugh2:      :gimmefive:

:HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I have a hard time with that as well......but I do think that in the inward life of the believer, the principles you speak are clearly applicable.  [OTOH] (addition mine) If there is no literal application to things like, "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" and " among them we all to once walked in hostility of mind" or "for those who are in the flesh cannot please God"- if there is no "us" and no "them" then(imo) in the apostles were in the dark and full of a sort of infantile misunderstanding of the work that God is doing in the earth and I find that a little hard to swallow- for me it would make the scriptures of little or no worth, written by spiritual neanderthal's not yet really enlightened compared to us.

Christ died for all- even those who are "outside" the household of faith living as adversaries toward God- who they do not see because the god of this world has blinded their eyes.

Agreed.  I believe there are spiritual applications to each individual believer on some level, as we all have HIS good works in us, while at the same time our own works that need burned to purification.       However, re: the "literal";  some sayings are "hard", but often what I personally wish and what the scriptures say are two different things.  I bang my head on that one often.      I believe it's clearly scriptural that some individuals are now sons of God, ONLY BY GRACE and according to God's will and timing, while other individuals are [currently] vessels of dishonor - both according to God's purposes, and no one "deserves" it or can boast.  Yet Jesus will bring all in, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses.  In the meantime, Paul gave these admonitions - "love your  neighbor as your self".."do good to all men, especially those of the household of faith" [brothers and sisters, children of God].

I John 3:1  See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we [the spiritually reborn, not everyone] should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now..no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.  Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil... 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God,

-------------
For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves.  It is the gift of God.

I think it is interesting to notice that Paul says, "in a great house there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor" - and it appears to be in the context of speaking about believers. I would not say that I know  for certain that "the great house" is not "the whole creation" of Romans 8, but it appears to me, at least in this specific portion of scripture, that Paul is speaking of the "wood,hay, stubble, gold, silver, precious stone" within the household of faith, as he is addressing false teaching and worthless babble among believers.

[jabcat]

Yes, besides the scriptural differentiation of the spiritually reborn through the gift of faith and grace, and those as yet to be brought in, a really cool thing to me is this.  In the midst of Paul giving the church at Corinth the business about their sin, saying he'd heard sin existed among them that pagans do not tolerate/shouldn't even be mentioned among them;  going to turn the one over to satan, admonishing them to live worthy of the high calling ...in the midst of all that, he called them SAINTS.   Grace, God's choosing and timing - working all things together for good "to those that love Him and are called according to His purpose".  Amen.  Where would I be without His mercy...

[eaglesway]

Nowhere  :Pray:

[Eduard]

Wonderful thread here :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

But who is part of the 3rd resurrection?
The first 2 parallel the 2 out of 3 harvests.

The 3rd IMO will be the ones in need of a more intense learning process. It parallels the harvest of over ripe grapes that are thrown into the wine press. The intense pressure draws out the valuable wine contained in the grapes.  :2c:

True but they are not said to be resurrected.

[mplsfitter539]

But who is part of the 3rd resurrection?
The first 2 parallel the 2 out of 3 harvests.

The 3rd IMO will be the ones in need of a more intense learning process. It parallels the harvest of over ripe grapes that are thrown into the wine press. The intense pressure draws out the valuable wine contained in the grapes.  :2c:

True but they are not said to be resurrected.

Good point WW. I struggle a bit with that also. Another somewhat similar question are the ones who came out of their graves when Yahshua was resurrected. Were they resurrected ? I don't know maybe they fell back to sleep the same way Lazarus did. I have not found definitive answers to these questions.

[WhiteWings]

I have to dig into that. It was discussed before on TM.
The Greek has 2 types of "make alive".

[WhiteWings]

Good point WW.

Not as good as you might think.
Saints get resurrected and will rule with Jesus. Although it's not clearly stated I think it's fair to assume that the saints are still alive at Jesus' coming  will be made rulers too.
People are awarded because of what they did/are. Not because they happened to live in a certain age.

[anna274]

Re:  People are awarded because of what they did/are

Acts 1:2 (NLT)
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.  And you will be My witnesses, telling people about Me everywhere -- in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

did=tell people about Me everywhere    are=witnesses



Psalm 26:7
Publish with the voice of thanksgiving, and tell of all Thy wondrous works.


KEEP TELLING IT  by Marks, 1921

If there is abundance of joy in your heart,
Made bright by the light from above
If Jesus has bidden your sorrows depart,
Keep telling the story of love.   :HeartThrob:

Refrain
Keep telling, keep telling,
Of Jesus and heaven above;
Keep telling others you meet on the way,
The wonderful story of love.


Keep telling of Jesus, His cross and His grave,
Keep telling of eternity above;
Keep telling ---  CHRIST RISEN AND ABLE TO SAVE ALL,
The powerful story of God's love.

[Tom]

But who is part of the 3rd resurrection?
The first 2 parallel the 2 out of 3 harvests.

The 3rd IMO will be the ones in need of a more intense learning process. It parallels the harvest of over ripe grapes that are thrown into the wine press. The intense pressure draws out the valuable wine contained in the grapes.  :2c:

True but they are not said to be resurrected.

Good point WW. I struggle a bit with that also. Another somewhat similar question are the ones who came out of their graves when Yahshua was resurrected. Were they resurrected ? I don't know maybe they fell back to sleep the same way Lazarus did. I have not found definitive answers to these questions.

The following is my perspective.

I think this shows that there are three classes to be vivified meaning immortalized or made alive in the sense of being free from death.

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

Christ has already been vivified. We're next when Christ meets us in the air, and those who are condemned to the second death will be vivified at the consummation of the eons.

Some folks were resurrected as is known from scripture, but they weren't vivified or immortalized. So they died again. Only Christ has been immortalized so far.

"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)

Our loved ones who died are not alive in heaven or hell. They are reposing until they will be immortalized either in the second or third class to be vivified.

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

Those who died as unbelievers standing before the great white throne will be resurrected but not vivified because they will be condemned to the second death, but they too will be vivified at the consummation of the eons. Only those who die as believers will be saved for eonian life, but all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons.

"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)


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