Free Will stumbling block

[Cristina100]

Many Christians say that not all will be saved because they don't want to be saved. How do you counter this arguments against UR.

[GodIsLove]

Free will was never mentioned in the Bible as far as I am aware.

Lots of verses that talk about God's will, not ours. Such as "who can resist his will?" Etc.

Think of all the aspects of our life we have no control over and then rethink our free will.

Did we will ourselves to be born?
Did we get to choose the family we were born into? The religion? The culture, the socioeconomic status?
Did we get to choose things like our appearance, disabilities, skin color, etc.
Then think of how all of these factors influence our will.
Then think of how God can and does influence our will based on scripture.

...Also, when Christians say people don't choose God, are they truly making an informed decision? Do we really think people choose to be tormented forever...or do we think when people choose to go against God they actually KNOW God? If they did know God, I believe no one would choose to go against Him. If this makes sense.

[Dandelion]

That is C.S. Lewis's take, and was mine up to the time I accepted UR.

In my very early twenties I was very influenced by C.S.Lewis, whom I still consider to be an incredible theologian.

However, as I just stated on another post....God made us into His image and likeness...He planted the seed of belonging to Him.

And, Love, at least God's perfect love.....never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8.

So, how could God leave us in 'Hell', if His love never fails. That would mean that He allowed us to come into being, knowing we would spend an eternity in dire suffering. A God who said that even if our parents abandon us, He will not....the God of the the Prodical son, who came running to meet his son, even before his son asked for forgiveness......the God who knit us in our mother's womb.......the God who has told us that if He takes care of the lilies of the field and the sparrows, how much more will he take care of us.....the God who counts every hair on our head.......HAS MADE US TO SUFFER AN ETERNITY IN HELL?! 

And, not even about the suffering and the torment.....what about God sticking to His Word.....His Word, which He has said that Heaven and Earth will pass away, but His Word will never pass away. So, all that talk of love and the parts of the Bible that say all will bow and give praise to God, and that just as one man's disobedience brought death to mankind, so Jesus brings salvation to all.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

The book, the Great Divorce, by C.S.Lewis, deals with this issue, from the view that 'free will' will prevail. Now, I do absolutely believe in free will....but that it is limited, in the sense that God created us, and He has arranged the scenarios of our life. We can choose, but within the confines of what we have been given. In that train of thought, I don't believe anyone is going to willingly choose Hell. Especially when they have seen the Almighty, face to face. And felt His great love for them, and finally, fully realize, how the Son of God lived and died for us.

I could say a bit more, but I think I made my point.

My  :2c:

D.

[Lazarus Short]

Those who believe in Free Will had no choice in the matter... :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[Lazarus Short]

Seriously, I have posted this elsewhere:

God is both willing AND able to save all.  If we keep in mind also His omnipotence, our salvation cannot be seen as anything other than inevitable. 
See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

Also look at Psalm 136, which contains the refrain, "...His mercy endures forever," repeated 26 times.  Hell and Psalm 136 cannot both be true, and Psalm 136 is true.  I have many other ways to show that Hell is a 404.

[RonnyTX]

Many Christians say that not all will be saved because they don't want to be saved. How do you counter this arguments against UR.

Well Cristina, I know it was not my will, that saved me. When I was 12 years old, I was made to feel very guilty by some of my church elders. I went up at church in tears, believed everything the preacher said to me-he thought I had been saved, so of course, I believed the same. Then a week later, I was baptized and became a church member. But four years later, God showed me, that I had merely been a wet Baptist. :-)

For it was 4 years later, that I went to Oregon, with an older brother. We ended up at a Baptist bible camp. The night before the last day of the camp, brother, some friends of his and I, we were just out driving around. And all out of the blue, God just let me know that I was not saved, not in a right relationship with God. Boy, did that ever shock me; but I knew it was the truth, because of who showed me such.  Then the next night. The last sermon had been preached and I had gone outside the chapel/church. I didn't know what to do? I was afraid if people back home found out I was lost, that they would think I had been lying to them, for the last 4 years. I needed help and the only place I could see to get it, was maybe back in that little chapel. So, I went back in. A guy at the door, he asked me if he could help me?  Not wanting to admit yet, that I was lost, so I simply told him, I didn't know if I was lost or saved. And he simply invited me to set down on the bench by him. he opened his bible and began to read a portion of it to me. And that's when I realized that God and God who was holy, was also there. And as scripture was read to me, God showed me my sinful selfrighteousnes and the goodness of God, led me to repentance. :-)  I simply agreed with God, about the sin God was showing me, in myself. And just as soon as I did, the love of God began to pour out upon me. :-)  And God put a picture in my mind, of three crosses and I knew on that center cross was Jesus Christ and he was there for me, taking all of my sins upon himself. :-)  The fellow who had been reading some scripture to me, he asked me if I wanted to pray? And I did. I simply said a prayer thanking God, for what God had just done for me. :-)  And I went out of the chapel and told my brother and many others as well. You couldn't shut me up. :-) So, I know how God saved me. And I know it had nothing to do with my will; but it was all of God and what God did for me, in God saving me. :-)  In saving me, God gave me a love for all people and a desire that all people, have the same type of relationship with God, as I then had. But then, it was back home, to my Calvinist teaching church. There, where I had been taught to believe, that God chose for a few to go to heaven and for most, to go to hell. And in this church, I was taught too, that the King James Version was the only true and perfect bible and it spoke or hell. So, I could not see then; but such had to be true. But 6 or 7 years ago now, God showed me better. :-)  God showed me that Jesus Christ is truly the Saviour and that of everyone, from Adam on down! :-)  So, we will all be spending eternity together. :-)  But there was nothing about my will, that saved me and or caused me to be saved. And there was nothing about my will, that taught me the truth of universal salvation, by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. No, God had to do/show those things to me and that both as God saved me and as God showed me the truth about UR. :-)   So, by my own experience, I know it is God who saves us and not us human beings, who save ourselves. And the love of God is so great, we will all be born of God, by way of Jesus Christ and the cross! :-)

[eaglesway]

The idea that God would allow people to choose eternal torment, and then, before He sends them into it force every one of to bow the knee and confess the Lordship of Jesus in some kind of cosmic "I told you so!"- is ridiculous, and paints God a petty tyrant.

[RonnyTX]

The idea that God would allow people to choose eternal torment, and then, before He sends them into it force every one of to bow the knee and confess the Lordship of Jesus in some kind of cosmic "I told you so!"- is ridiculous, and paints God a petty tyrant.

Ronny to Eaglesway:
So true.  And especially so, when the pure fact of the matter is, God is love! :-)

[eaglesway]

The free will/ sov debate is a general theological discussion involving a wide range of opinions on how God works with man. As are the terms "Arminian", "Calvainist" etc.

The truth is very few people(believers) are totally one way or the other, so the "free-will/sov" debate, to me, has little to do with the salvation of all. I believe God is bringing the whole Creation into "The glorious liberty of the son of God". "Jesus said, "If you continue in my word, you will be my disciples indeed, and you will know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

So in short, I believe the sovereign will of God is that everyone is learning to exercise a free will. A will set free to love by Jesus Christ.

As Paul said, "For freedom Christ has set you free"..... but freedom is love. Just because someone calls their rebellion/selfishness "freedom" doesnt mean they are free. They are lost(appolumi) in futility.

IMO the free will/sov positional argument isnt always an effective argument for UR. I believe in a measure of free will, because God teaches through stewardship, and I believe that measure actually grows into total freedom as we mature in Christ. When God is "all in all" there will no longer be ANY rule, power or authrity. It will no longer be necessary. All creation will hav been set free from futiltiy into perfect love.

At the same time I believe God created all things with an inclination to return to Him, as it is written in Acts 17 "He is not far from any of us for in Him we live and breathe and have our being", and His sovereign will exerts its influence untill all things return to Him, "For from Him and thru Him and to Him are all things" and that sovereign will is setting everything free in love. So(imo) a balanced presentation on UR

Includes 1)the love of God argument, 2)the plan of God argument, 3)the will of God argument and 4)the word of God argument.

1) To me, the love of God argument is the best. God is love and His love is so great that He gave His only begotten Son to show us the way to truly be free. "For freedom Christ has set you free"...."If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"

2)The scriptures show God had a plan from the beginning. God planned everything so that man would learn to love and be set free from the futility of selfishness.(Eph 1, Acts 3, Romans 8) His plan is way deeper and wider than we can  see, but the scriptures clearly say it includes the reconciliation and restoration of all things. Why would God actually PLAN a creation where most would be tormented forever. It makes absolutley no sense.

"Who has known the mind of the Lord and Who has been His counselor....For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"

3)God may or may not give a measured freedom over one's will within the context of their own life and existence, but the scriptures clearly say that God's will is that evrything in heaven and earth will be reconciled to Him and restored through Jesus Christ(1 Cor 15, Eph 1, Col 1, Acts

God causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will.( Eph 1) No will is greater than God's will. We can debate whether man has a measure of free will until our brains explode, but one thing is for certain- No One's Will Is Greater Than God's. Everything in the universe is working towards the salvation of all. He has set it all in motion. No one, even if they (theoretically) have a "free will", can outlast God, and deny the overwhelmng light of the love of God in the face of Jesus Christ. God is just too great. His love is too awesome, and eventually all creation will be set free. It is not really necessary to debate all the fine points. I just state that it is clear that God's will is that all men are saved... and all things work according to the counsel of His will... and He will accomplish all He has planned.

4) The word of God argument. There are just too many scriptures that say God will save all, to ignore them repudiates faith in the scriptures itself.

So if someone wants to believe that "Every knee shall bow.... and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" means God will shove every unbeliever down to their knees just before He throws them into hell- then they dont believe in free will no matter what theology they claim to hold. Such a God has no regard for the  will of man, or He would just judge them in their choice to rebel and toss em over the edge so to speak. So obviusly God's will is like a river, and man's will is like a trickle. Eventually every trickle will find its way to a stream, which will find its way to a creek which will find its way to a river and in the river it will be "free indeed".

God has so set the water cycle so that no water is lost. The system is fool proof.We cannot stop the rain, restrain the wind and the seas, unlatch gravity from its moors, create light or stop the heat or the cold :o)

It is inevitable, so I do believe God is sovereign. But I believe His sovereign will leaves a lot of room for freedomto LEARN WHAT LOVE IS and as all become reconciled to God the lives they have lived become the threshing floor of the lessons they have learned- "each in its own order". Within the river- every drop of water is free. It is just all caught up in the overwhelming rush of the love of God.

"And I heard the voice of God and it was like the rushing of many waters, the voices of thousands of thousands worshipping"

[WhiteWings]

Proverbs 16:9  In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.
I think that verse says a lot on the topic.

On a macro scale Israel is  good example. They used their free will to stray away from God. God lost His patience, exiled them, released them and they were back on His path.



Long ago someone built a huge maze for his sheep. The maze was really very huge. Millions of corridors. The maze had only one exit. Above the doorway was written "The fold". Anyway that man put his sheep in that maze. The sheep scattered and all took their own route. Left. Right. Dead end. Reverse. And finally... one by one they entered the fold. They freely chose their own route within the design limitations of the maze. But did they really chose the exit?

[eaglesway]

Yes, I agree with that entirely. And Paul uses that very example in 1 Cor 10:11


Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall. No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it....

There is a micro view and a macro view, and God is teaching us- individually and(I believe) corporately as mankind on the treshing floor of life experience.

[StevenL]

Removed per direction from moderator to debate free will on other sites.

[ed]

Many Christians say that not all will be saved because they don't want to be saved. How do you counter this arguments against UR.

Wants change.

[Seth]

Many Christians say that not all will be saved because they don't want to be saved. How do you counter this arguments against UR.

The free-will debate aside, I would counter that argument by this scripture:

Romans 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

If that's true, then how does anyone get saved? Because God is better than they are. So, even if they don't want to be saved, that doesn't determine what God wants to do for their good.

[eaglesway]

Free will/ sov...Trinity/anyty... all these topic that are debated on other sites, should be debated on other sites.

Ed, I think your answer was a great one.

Definitely, wants change.

Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Rev 3:19

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? Ro 2:4

[WhiteWings]

Many Christians say that not all will be saved because they don't want to be saved. How do you counter this arguments against UR.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/hebrews-927-after-death-comes-judgement/msg122137/#msg122137

[micah7:9]

Removed per direction from moderator to debate free will on other sites.

:sigh:

[bushy]

Many Christians say that not all will be saved because they don't want to be saved. How do you counter this arguments against UR.

I think they say this in total ignorance on what being saved means. What they don't want is to sit through boring church services and follow a list of things to do and not do.

There is so much confusion preached that nothing makes sense at first. And it only starts making sense when you leave behind a lot of what comes from christian teaching. When I first came to see that the Father of love will save everyone I was hit the deepest by Charles Slagle's writings about his journey through confusion.   http://www.sigler.org/slagle/The%20Gobbledygook%20Gospel.htm