Do we only know "in part" ?

[Pierac]

1Co 13:8  Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Co 13:9  For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10  but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
1Co 13:12  For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1Co 13:13  But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Do we only know "in part"  as Paul said he does?  Seems so, does any one know of any other scripture on the topic?

Paul

[pickr]

Your post brought to mind Romans 11, where Paul talks about God's "unsearchable" ways. So how about that one...

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

and maybe...

Job 5:7-9  Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:  Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number

or

Psa 145:3 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

[Kept]

Joh 21:25  And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

just made me think of that as well

kept

[Taffy]

Isnt Paul speaking somewhat rhetorically?

Perfect for mine HAS come.

Blessings
Taffy

[pickr]

Hi Taffy,

I think Paul (Pierac) was asking about the seeing "only in part" part, and seeing through a mirror dimly.

I keep rubbin on my mirror, but it only seems to grow brighter now and again, and with no seeming correlation to my efforts to rub it clearer. ;)

[Taffy]

Maybe theres more behind to the scriptures Pauls quoted? for me hes speaking somewhat Rhetorically

15:09:572Cr 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

what Knowledge passes away?


2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the"" face ""of Jesus Christ. 

what PART do we KNOW IN ?


Blessings
Taffy

[Taffy]

lol Kim

the FORM of Godliness

speaks of the Pharisees\flesh denying the POWER of GOD= Christ.

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


2Ti 3:6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,


2Ti 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

sorta makes a lot of sense this end to....

that which passes is the KNOWLEDGE of the shadow...from GLORY to GLORY....?

Paul speaks of ..when I was a Child..i spoke as ONE?

well for mine sis..a Child is ONE under law( paul after all was a son of a Pharisee)..he PREACHED law...but was NOT yet a SON of promise...do we not move from age to age?

care to share some on face to face? :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

[Jaareshiah]

Jesus, on the night before his death, gave his disciples a command, that "you love one another; just as I have love you, that you also love one another."(John 13:34)  The apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 13, provides the splendor and everlastingness of love that is in imitation of Jesus as compared with the gifts of the spirit such as ' speaking in tongues of men and angels', prophesying, being aquainted with "all the sacred secrets and all knowledge", even having such strong faith so as to "transplant mountains".  After having laid out the deep meaning of genuine love in verses 4-7, he then says that "love never fails" (verse 8), contrasting it's eternalness with the limited use of prophesying, speaking in "tongues, and supernatural "knowledge". Love can no more end or fail than God can, for from him it came forth and is the very epitome of love,(1 John 4:8) governing all the universe with this indispensible quality.

However Paul says, though "love never fails", gifts of the spirit would come to an end. He said that "whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with."(1 Cor 13:8) These "gifts" ceased to operate once the apostles died, with the apostle John being the last one in about 100 C.E. Thus the power to transmit such gifts was unique with these apostles. Such miraculous gifts would therefore pass away with the death of these apostles and of those who had received these gifts through the apostles (1Co 13:2, 8-11), and hence we read that these powers were "missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past—in the apostolic age, in fact."—The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1, p. 79.

Performing apparently miraculous works would not in itself prove divine authorization, nor would the inability of God's servants to perform miracles with the help of God's spirit cast doubt on the fact that they were being used by him, for Jesus said that "many will say to me in that day (our time period), 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?', and yet he tells these one that he ' never knew them', calling them "workers of lawlessness". (Mt 7:21-23) Not every first-century Christian could perform powerful works, heal, speak in tongues, and translate. Paul, and doubtless some others, had by God's undeserved kindness been granted a number of these gifts of the spirit. However, these miraculous gifts marked the infancy of the Christian congregation and were foretold to cease. In fact, even Jesus says that his followers would be identified, not by their performance of powerful works, but by their love for one another.(1Co 12:29, 30; 13:2, 8-13; Joh 13:35)

How do we know this ? By the illustration that the apostle Paul uses, saying that "when I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe." Can an infant or baby take care of themselves ? No. These need loving assistance and care of a parent or adult to survive and thrive. Thus, after the Christian congregation was formed on Pentecost 33 C.E., it was like a new born baby, needing extraordinary help, in which God provides this by means of the "gifts of the spirit". How would the "good news of the kingdom" be preached earthwide in this early phase of it's existence if God did not lend a loving hand to accomplish this ? For example, on the day of Pentecost, God caused those upon which the holy spirit was poured out, to begin speaking in "tongues". Why ? To begin spreading the kingdom message right there in Jerusalem, for among the crowd were "Par´thi·ans and Medes and E´lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta´mi·a, and Ju·de´a and Cap·pa·do´ci·a, Pon´tus and the [district of] Asia, and Phryg´i·a and Pam·phyl´i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib´y·a, which is toward Cy·re´ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cre´tans and Arabians," and in which "we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God." (Acts 2:9-11)

God miraculously caused this, for who among the 120 in the upper room could speak all these languages and effectively give a witness about the Christ ? No one. Hence, God made this happen, so that those there in Jerusalem could hear the "good news of the kingdom", of which Jesus Christ is at the core. In addition, the other miracles of "prophesying" and supernatural "knowledge" were also provided by God to show his support for this "babe", the Christian congregation in it's infancy. But these too would "be done away with".(1 Cor 13:8)

In reading the history of the Acts of Apostles, it can be seen that God's spirit was working mightily, speedily, forming congregations, getting Christianity firmly established. (Ac 4:4; chaps 13, 14, 16-19) In the few short years between 33 and 70 C.E., thousands of believers were gathered in many congregations from Babylon to Rome, and perhaps even farther west. (1Pe 5:13; Ro 1:1, 7; 15:24) It is worthy of note that copies of the Scriptures then were few. Usually only the well-to-do possessed scrolls or books of any sort. In pagan lands there was no knowledge of the Bible or the God of the Bible, Jehovah. Virtually everything had to be done by word of mouth. There were no Bible commentaries, concordances, and encyclopedias readily at hand. So the miraculous gifts of special knowledge, wisdom, speaking in tongues, and discernment of inspired utterances were vital for the congregation then. (1Co 12:4-11, 27-31) But, as the apostle Paul wrote, when those things were no longer needed, they would pass away.

Paul now says that "at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known."(1 Cor 13:12) Hence, during the first century, the meaning of prophetic statements in the Bible would be not be clear, but "hazy". Only in our "day" has the "deep things of God"(1 Cor 2:10) become as "face to face", with these being unveiled or revealed, such as the book of Revelation, of Daniel, Ezekiel, the meaning of Genesis 3:15, what the kingdom is.

Though these "gifts of the spirit" did pass away with the death of the apostles, there "remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."(1 Cor 13:13) The Christian congregation would become known, not by miraculous works but by love. Who are the ones that have closely adhered to Jesus command to "love one another" and not be involved in the wars of the nations, but rather have beaten "their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears" ?(Isaiah 2:4)

[Loveroftruth]

Jaareshiah

Are you saying the gifts went away with the apostles  :dontknow:
If so, I really have to disagree...
Although I strongly sense that the 5 fold is gone.... WE HAVING HIM in US is FULLNESS

Jesus and the apostles were all teachers, healers, evangalists, prophets etc..... When we have HIM in us, and it is HIM flowing through us - we are ALL things..

But the spiritual gifts are alive and well, at least in Charlotte, NC :laughing7:

[SeekerSA]

I agree with Christine.  I have heard the argument posted by Jasperius by Orthodox when they are challenged on the power or effectiveness of the church.  If the gifts died with the Apostles then they were a sham to start with or God IS a respecter of persons.

Prophesies "I" have made came to pass.  Interpretations "I" have made have been confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses.  I use "I" as being under the gift and not of my own.  Word of knowledge, word of wisdom etc. the same.

Not something I learned as my baptism happened outside of the church.

The ceasing of gifts and prophesies is the moving off milk to meat.  Once you chew on Spiritual meat, the gifts are no longer absolutes but they never go away, they just get less and less.

Blessings

[Jaareshiah]

Hello Loveroftruth
Yes, the miraculous "gifts of the spirit" did pass away. Just as an infant needs it's parents to survive until it's able to care for itself, so likewise the first century Christian congregation. Later though, when grown, a child can now continue without the extraordinary aid of it's parents. That is why the apostle Paul wrote "now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe."(1 Cor 13:11) When an infant grows into a "man", he no longer needs the extraordinary assistance of his parents.

Since a babe acts on the basis of limited knowledge and physical development, it can be swayed to and fro, as though being rocked in a cradle. But a man is much more developed physically, has greater knowledge, and usually is not easily swayed. He has abolished childhood thoughts, attitudes, and methods. Similarly, after the Christian congregation grew out of its infancy, God judged that it did not need the spirit's gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Though present-day members of the congregation, now in its old age, also feel no need for such gifts, they are glad to serve God under the guidance of his spirit.

Jesus, when laying out how to identify the true religion, said that "not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."(Matt 7:21) He then says that, in contrasts to those who are doing the "will of (his) Father", that "many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?'" Are these that "prophesy" in Jesus' name, "expel demons" or that "perform many powerful works" evidence that this is pleasing to God ? Jesus said no, but rather those who are fulfilling the commission to preach earthwide the "good news of the kingdom" that he gave to his disiples three days before he died.(Matt 24:14)

Just before his ascension to heaven, Jesus told his apostles to "go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19,20) The miraculous "gifts of the spirit" are now no longer needed, for in our time period, for the Christian congregation is  a "man", being full grown.

Who are those "doing the will" of God these days ? Who are the ones that are willing to preach the "good news of the kingdom" from "house to house", after the example of Jesus ? Who are the ones that are ready and willing to teach individuals "to observe all the things" that Jesus commanded, going to person's homes to provide this vital instruction of how to become subjects of God's kingdom ?

To do this assigned work that Jesus personally gave before his death, in order for it to be accomplished to the ends of the earth, the Christian congregation is now a "man", able to handle these responsibilties under the guidance of God's spirit. This is doing God's will, just as Jesus set the pattern.(Matt 9:35-38; 10:27)

[Loveroftruth]

 :thumbdown:

[Loveroftruth]

Jesus said no, but rather those who are fulfilling the commission to preach earthwide the "good news of the kingdom" that he gave to his disiples three days before he died.(Matt 24:14)

Do you realize many scriptures say the ALL the world heard the gospel? So, we must then assume that too was accompished dear brother :laughing7:

I have more to say but I am at work  :sigh:

[Kept]

The Christian congregation would become known, not by miraculous works but by love. Who are the ones that have closely adhered to Jesus command to "love one another" and not be involved in the wars of the nations, but rather have beaten "their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears" ?(Isaiah 2:4)

Well we can agree on this part  :happygrin:

God bless
kept

[Loveroftruth]

Kim Wrote

In regards to coveting spiritual gifts and we look at what prophesying means, its to "edify the church". I cant say edifying the church has passed away grin Gees love itself "edifieth" so I hope not  grin (couldnt resist). Even knowledge in the sense that one knowledge (that which we add to our faith) and certain developments (that are to abound in us) appear to keep us from being barren or unfruitful in our knowledge of Him.

Maybe certain things "pass away" out of our own experience (which were helpful) to where we were at one time in relation to where we are going, like "onto perfection'. The building up of the body unto the fullness of Christ (till the day dawns and the light of our precious stone shines) maybe?

:iagree: :HeartThrob:

Maybe certain things "pass away" out of our own experience

My friend always says "we move from pentecost to tabernacles" and just as you wrote - there seems to be a place where we got "the gifts" it was exciting, it drew us to know more about God and the things of Him.... but then we come to a place where that is no longer our focus - its like WE BECOME ONE WITH HIM and the Gifts are just WHO WE ARE when HE IS FLOWING THROUGH US.

So could we say pentecost is sort of a "UPON US" and then we come to a place of "IN US"  :dontknow:

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

In Pentecost we PLAY like a child would with the GIFTS, but in Tabernacles WE BECOME THE GIFT :HeartThrob:

Thoughts :dontknow:

[SeekerSA]

:goodpost:

[Kept]

I second that  :goodpost: loveroftruth and add a  :Urock:

Its a necessary process to be able to lay those things down as they become our center instead of the Lord of the gifts

But when He is ready He takes them up within us

Im still waiting on much to be taken up again and manifested again, but, while I wait I just stay focused on Him as much as possible

I read most of Brother Lawrence's book 'Practicing the Presence of God' again last night. That book never grows old. It just reinforces where our focus is to be, the rest will follow.
And their works do follow them. Doesnt it say that somwhere?

kept

[Jaareshiah]

Jesus said no, but rather those who are fulfilling the commission to preach earthwide the "good news of the kingdom" that he gave to his disiples three days before he died.(Matt 24:14)

Do you realize many scriptures say the ALL the world heard the gospel? So, we must then assume that too was accompished dear brother :laughing7:

I have more to say but I am at work  :sigh:

Hi Loveroftruth,
Jesus, in answering his apostles question on how to identify the "sign of (his) presence ("coming", King James Bible) and of the conclusion of the system of things" at Matthew 24:3, gave features that would be recognizable to those who are like "eagles"(Matt 24:28) These features, such as "nation...against nation, and kingdom against kingdom....food shortages....earthquakes in one place after another" (Matt 24:7) were just the beginning of the "pangs of distress"(Matt 24:8) that began when Jesus received the "ruleship, and dignity and kingdom" in 1914. Jesus then further emphasized that before the 'end comes', that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached into all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations." This world wide educational work is being fulfilled just as Jesus commanded, in some 235 lands and islands of the sea, during the "conclusion of the system of things". Only when this assigned work has been accomplished to God's satisfaction, will he bring this "system" to an end. We are personally living during this time period.

At Matthew 13:3-9, Jesus gave an illustration on the "kingdom", whereby a "sower" had cast "seeds", some alongside the road, others in "rocky places", still others among the "thorns", and finally some fell on "fine soil". Jesus, in giving more information on the "kingdom" being sown, then gives another ilustration at Matthew 13:24-30. A "man" sows "fine seed", but this "fine seed" is intermingled with "weeds" by "an enemy". This "man" is Jesus Christ, started sowing "fine seeds" of the kingdom from 29 C.E. onward, following his baptism by John.(Mark 1:14,15)

Jesus then brings this illustration all the way down to our time period, for in the illustration, the owner of the field tells his slaves not to "collect the wheat" until the "harvest". Jesus explains the meaning of this illustration or parable, saying: "The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things."(Matt 13:37-40)

Jesus, just before his ascension to heaven, told the disciples: "You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de´a and Sa·mar´i·a and to the most distant part of the earth."(Acts 1:8)  Hence, the "good news of the kingdom" is presently being preached to all mankind, as the 'master's slaves' are following his command. We are now living during this "harvest" time, in which the "wheat" is being separated from the "weeds". Few, though, would be "fine soil".(Matt 13:8)

At Matthew 25, Jesus gave another illustration of a man who is about to "travel abroad" and before leaving, commits to his "slaves" some "talents".(In modern values a talent of silver would be reckoned at approximately $6,606.00 and a talent of gold at $385,350.00) These "talents" represent the commission to make disciples of Christ. The man who was about to "travel abroad" is Jesus, which pictures the time period following his death until he receives the kingdom.(Dan 7:3,14) Hence, following his enthronement as king in 1914, he proceeds to ensure that during the "harvest" time, the work of making known God's kingdom is accomplished to his Father's satisfaction and "then the end will come". In this illustration, there is one "slave" whom the "master" calls "sluggish", having buried the "talent" in the "ground".(Matt 25:26) This "slave" was unwilling to use the 'master's talent' so as to gain the "master" more. Thus the "master" now says: "Therefore take away the talent from him and give it to him that has the ten talents. For to everyone that has, more will be given and he will have abundance; but as for him that does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.'"(Matt 25:28-30)

Jesus further spoke of separating the "sheep and the goats" at Matthew 25:31-33. In order for that to be done, a person must go to the homes of people, or in the marketplace, or wherever people are, just as Jesus and the apostles did. The apostle Paul said that he "did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house."(Acts 20:20) This work has yet to be completed.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Jaareshiah; I commend you for your obvious dedication to study and your willingness to share. But I have to tell you most here have already experienced what you are telling us hasn't happened yet, or hasn't happened since the disciples or ended with the disciples, however you choose to phrase it. They told me that 21 years ago. But it was TOO LATE, I'd already experienced it! And so I tell you, He is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and that was written way before it "ended". Blessings to you in your search for Truth always.......

[Loveroftruth]

Jaareshiah

I lean torwards a preterist view, so most of what you wrote is not how I interpret the scriptures you posted :icon_queen:

Yes, I know - where is the darn can of worms smilie??
   

[Taffy]

HI LT


Indeed it was IS and WILL be......This is no lie.,,for mine  for some overlooked and NOT  understood.

t 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the """end """"come.

Blessings
Taffy

[Loveroftruth]

HI LT


Indeed it was IS and WILL be......This is no lie.,,for mine  for some overlooked and NOT  understood.

t 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the """end """"come.

Blessings
Taffy

Hey Brother,

What do you think the "end" looks like? :girlheart: :boyheart:

[Taffy]

LT

CHRIST is the END of our faith..the Beginning and the END,, THE ALPHA and OMEGA......but one has to HEAR of the good news to believe IT.

its a HE..not an event.....THESE are spirtual TRUTHS hidden from our eyes.


yo HAVE received the END of your FAITH being CHRIST in YOU....THE salvation of your SOUL

CHRIST is the END of this WORLD....BEING HIM in YOU

  Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 

AGaIN the END is HE....

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

ESTABLISHED in WHO?

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

WHO IS the END of the PROMISE?

Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

m 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

who IS THE end OF THE LAW?..ITS A HE.....

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

CHRIST...OUR HOPE of GLORY?


Hbr 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;   


1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:


1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. 

Christ again..our HOPE of Glory
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last

THATS who the END looks like for mine LT..shame on those who wait for the rapture...TIS a shame indeed.


AS for the GOSPEL be preached to THE WORLD..this for mine is what it means...


Rome was the Capital of the Anceint WORLD..its Hidden and overlooked, Red letter spoke in a POST a while back..we have to READ these things a THOUSAND times BEFORE we get it...never a more true word spoken for mine.,,the revelation always comes from WITHIN..piece by piece

ROME was the WORLD which is liked to the FLESH of EVERYMAN...paul was SENT TO preach there...

23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

The spiritual JEW has to come OUT of ROME( the world=flesh)..


.t 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

at one time we WERE all LOST in ROME....He FINDS us not US HIM

2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found [me].

every man has HIS appointed TIME

Act 28:11  And after three months we departed in a ship of Alexandria, which had wintered in the isle, whose sign was Castor and Pollux.


Act 28:12  And landing at Syracuse, we tarried [there] three days.


Act 28:13  And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli:

BE Blessed
Taffy

[Kratos]

I will just briefly say that many of us have looked into what is coming in Tabernacles. Like God, we speak by faith those things that are not as though they were. This is the way of God. However, as I understand it, only Jesus has experienced Tabernacles because this is the realm where no flesh can enter and reveals the transformation of our physical bodies into immortal ones like as He had after His resurrection.

The "gift ministries" were given to "some" for the edifying of the Body of Christ for the work of the ministry UNTIL we all come to the unity of the faith and into a perfect man and to the fulness of the stature of Christ.

I know that many trust their feelings more than the scriptures these days and this is a personal decision for all. But, for those who still hold the scriptures as the truth, we have not yet been changed and we have not all come to unity and we have not come to the fulness of the stature of Christ or to a perfect man. So, the ministry gifts have not passed away and they have not been given to all.

Paul taught in the context of I Cor. 12 that all are not Christ in themselves, but we are members in particular of His Body. The eye is not the hand and the ear is not the eye. In this same context, he asks "are all apostles" and "are all prophets". The assumed answer is "no" in the same way that all members of the human body are not all eyes or ears.

I look forward with great anticipation to the day when that which is perfect has come and these "pentecostal age" gifts will have passed away. But, scripturally, we are not there yet. But, I do think we are getting close.

I think we have all bee hurt when these gift ministries acted immaturely and abused the people by lording over and merchandizing what they had been given for the benefit of all. But, the "manchild" must come out of a mature church and the gift ministries are God's way to bringing about this maturity. We cannot throw out the ways of God for our own "better ideas", but we must learn to do what has been done in the flesh except in the spirit this time.

John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Word and the Spirit are one. Each reveal each other's nature, building that which is perfect inside us. The Word reveals the Spirit first, for without the foundation of the Word in us, the Spirit will not manifest itself very much, because the Spirit comes to perform the Word.

The order of that revealing is reversed at a certain point, according to the timing and will of the Workman. Then the Spirit, once it's nature is revealed thru the Word begins to reveal itself more, both as the hidden Word, and in manifestations in gifts, dreams and visions. 

One is not greater than another, and one cannot be had without the other. The problem arises because in any group, people are in one stage or the other. Both are right, according to where the Master Builder has them in their walk. Blessings to all......