1Co 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1Co 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Do we only know "in part" as Paul said he does? Seems so, does any one know of any other scripture on the topic?
Paul
Your post brought to mind Romans 11, where Paul talks about God's "unsearchable" ways. So how about that one...
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
and maybe...
Job 5:7-9 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause: Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number
or
Psa 145:3 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
just made me think of that as well
kept
Isnt Paul speaking somewhat rhetorically?
Perfect for mine HAS come.
Blessings
Taffy
Hi Taffy,
I think Paul (Pierac) was asking about the seeing "only in part" part, and seeing through a mirror dimly.
I keep rubbin on my mirror, but it only seems to grow brighter now and again, and with no seeming correlation to my efforts to rub it clearer. ;)
Maybe theres more behind to the scriptures Pauls quoted? for me hes speaking somewhat Rhetorically
15:09:572Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
what Knowledge passes away?
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the"" face ""of Jesus Christ.
what PART do we KNOW IN ?
Blessings
Taffy
lol Kim
the FORM of Godliness
speaks of the Pharisees\flesh denying the POWER of GOD= Christ.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth
sorta makes a lot of sense this end to....
that which passes is the KNOWLEDGE of the shadow...from GLORY to GLORY....?
Paul speaks of ..when I was a Child..i spoke as ONE?
well for mine sis..a Child is ONE under law( paul after all was a son of a Pharisee)..he PREACHED law...but was NOT yet a SON of promise...do we not move from age to age?
care to share some on face to face? :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Jesus, on the night before his death, gave his disciples a command, that "you love one another; just as I have love you, that you also love one another."(John 13:34) The apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 13, provides the splendor and everlastingness of love that is in imitation of Jesus as compared with the gifts of the spirit such as ' speaking in tongues of men and angels', prophesying, being aquainted with "all the sacred secrets and all knowledge", even having such strong faith so as to "transplant mountains". After having laid out the deep meaning of genuine love in verses 4-7, he then says that "love never fails" (verse 8), contrasting it's eternalness with the limited use of prophesying, speaking in "tongues, and supernatural "knowledge". Love can no more end or fail than God can, for from him it came forth and is the very epitome of love,(1 John 4:8) governing all the universe with this indispensible quality.
However Paul says, though "love never fails", gifts of the spirit would come to an end. He said that "whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with."(1 Cor 13:8) These "gifts" ceased to operate once the apostles died, with the apostle John being the last one in about 100 C.E. Thus the power to transmit such gifts was unique with these apostles. Such miraculous gifts would therefore pass away with the death of these apostles and of those who had received these gifts through the apostles (1Co 13:2, 8-11), and hence we read that these powers were "missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past—in the apostolic age, in fact."—The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1, p. 79.
Performing apparently miraculous works would not in itself prove divine authorization, nor would the inability of God's servants to perform miracles with the help of God's spirit cast doubt on the fact that they were being used by him, for Jesus said that "many will say to me in that day (our time period), 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?', and yet he tells these one that he ' never knew them', calling them "workers of lawlessness". (Mt 7:21-23) Not every first-century Christian could perform powerful works, heal, speak in tongues, and translate. Paul, and doubtless some others, had by God's undeserved kindness been granted a number of these gifts of the spirit. However, these miraculous gifts marked the infancy of the Christian congregation and were foretold to cease. In fact, even Jesus says that his followers would be identified, not by their performance of powerful works, but by their love for one another.(1Co 12:29, 30; 13:2, 8-13; Joh 13:35)
How do we know this ? By the illustration that the apostle Paul uses, saying that "when I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe." Can an infant or baby take care of themselves ? No. These need loving assistance and care of a parent or adult to survive and thrive. Thus, after the Christian congregation was formed on Pentecost 33 C.E., it was like a new born baby, needing extraordinary help, in which God provides this by means of the "gifts of the spirit". How would the "good news of the kingdom" be preached earthwide in this early phase of it's existence if God did not lend a loving hand to accomplish this ? For example, on the day of Pentecost, God caused those upon which the holy spirit was poured out, to begin speaking in "tongues". Why ? To begin spreading the kingdom message right there in Jerusalem, for among the crowd were "Par´thi·ans and Medes and E´lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta´mi·a, and Ju·de´a and Cap·pa·do´ci·a, Pon´tus and the [district of] Asia, and Phryg´i·a and Pam·phyl´i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib´y·a, which is toward Cy·re´ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cre´tans and Arabians," and in which "we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God." (Acts 2:9-11)
God miraculously caused this, for who among the 120 in the upper room could speak all these languages and effectively give a witness about the Christ ? No one. Hence, God made this happen, so that those there in Jerusalem could hear the "good news of the kingdom", of which Jesus Christ is at the core. In addition, the other miracles of "prophesying" and supernatural "knowledge" were also provided by God to show his support for this "babe", the Christian congregation in it's infancy. But these too would "be done away with".(1 Cor 13:8)
In reading the history of the Acts of Apostles, it can be seen that God's spirit was working mightily, speedily, forming congregations, getting Christianity firmly established. (Ac 4:4; chaps 13, 14, 16-19) In the few short years between 33 and 70 C.E., thousands of believers were gathered in many congregations from Babylon to Rome, and perhaps even farther west. (1Pe 5:13; Ro 1:1, 7; 15:24) It is worthy of note that copies of the Scriptures then were few. Usually only the well-to-do possessed scrolls or books of any sort. In pagan lands there was no knowledge of the Bible or the God of the Bible, Jehovah. Virtually everything had to be done by word of mouth. There were no Bible commentaries, concordances, and encyclopedias readily at hand. So the miraculous gifts of special knowledge, wisdom, speaking in tongues, and discernment of inspired utterances were vital for the congregation then. (1Co 12:4-11, 27-31) But, as the apostle Paul wrote, when those things were no longer needed, they would pass away.
Paul now says that "at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known."(1 Cor 13:12) Hence, during the first century, the meaning of prophetic statements in the Bible would be not be clear, but "hazy". Only in our "day" has the "deep things of God"(1 Cor 2:10) become as "face to face", with these being unveiled or revealed, such as the book of Revelation, of Daniel, Ezekiel, the meaning of Genesis 3:15, what the kingdom is.
Though these "gifts of the spirit" did pass away with the death of the apostles, there "remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."(1 Cor 13:13) The Christian congregation would become known, not by miraculous works but by love. Who are the ones that have closely adhered to Jesus command to "love one another" and not be involved in the wars of the nations, but rather have beaten "their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears" ?(Isaiah 2:4)
Jaareshiah
Are you saying the gifts went away with the apostles :dontknow:
If so, I really have to disagree...
Although I strongly sense that the 5 fold is gone.... WE HAVING HIM in US is FULLNESS
Jesus and the apostles were all teachers, healers, evangalists, prophets etc..... When we have HIM in us, and it is HIM flowing through us - we are ALL things..
But the spiritual gifts are alive and well, at least in Charlotte, NC :laughing7:
I agree with Christine. I have heard the argument posted by Jasperius by Orthodox when they are challenged on the power or effectiveness of the church. If the gifts died with the Apostles then they were a sham to start with or God IS a respecter of persons.
Prophesies "I" have made came to pass. Interpretations "I" have made have been confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses. I use "I" as being under the gift and not of my own. Word of knowledge, word of wisdom etc. the same.
Not something I learned as my baptism happened outside of the church.
The ceasing of gifts and prophesies is the moving off milk to meat. Once you chew on Spiritual meat, the gifts are no longer absolutes but they never go away, they just get less and less.
Blessings
Hello Loveroftruth
Yes, the miraculous "gifts of the spirit" did pass away. Just as an infant needs it's parents to survive until it's able to care for itself, so likewise the first century Christian congregation. Later though, when grown, a child can now continue without the extraordinary aid of it's parents. That is why the apostle Paul wrote "now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe."(1 Cor 13:11) When an infant grows into a "man", he no longer needs the extraordinary assistance of his parents.
Since a babe acts on the basis of limited knowledge and physical development, it can be swayed to and fro, as though being rocked in a cradle. But a man is much more developed physically, has greater knowledge, and usually is not easily swayed. He has abolished childhood thoughts, attitudes, and methods. Similarly, after the Christian congregation grew out of its infancy, God judged that it did not need the spirit's gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Though present-day members of the congregation, now in its old age, also feel no need for such gifts, they are glad to serve God under the guidance of his spirit.
Jesus, when laying out how to identify the true religion, said that "not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."(Matt 7:21) He then says that, in contrasts to those who are doing the "will of (his) Father", that "many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?'" Are these that "prophesy" in Jesus' name, "expel demons" or that "perform many powerful works" evidence that this is pleasing to God ? Jesus said no, but rather those who are fulfilling the commission to preach earthwide the "good news of the kingdom" that he gave to his disiples three days before he died.(Matt 24:14)
Just before his ascension to heaven, Jesus told his apostles to "go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19,20) The miraculous "gifts of the spirit" are now no longer needed, for in our time period, for the Christian congregation is a "man", being full grown.
Who are those "doing the will" of God these days ? Who are the ones that are willing to preach the "good news of the kingdom" from "house to house", after the example of Jesus ? Who are the ones that are ready and willing to teach individuals "to observe all the things" that Jesus commanded, going to person's homes to provide this vital instruction of how to become subjects of God's kingdom ?
To do this assigned work that Jesus personally gave before his death, in order for it to be accomplished to the ends of the earth, the Christian congregation is now a "man", able to handle these responsibilties under the guidance of God's spirit. This is doing God's will, just as Jesus set the pattern.(Matt 9:35-38; 10:27)
:thumbdown:
QuoteJesus said no, but rather those who are fulfilling the commission to preach earthwide the "good news of the kingdom" that he gave to his disiples three days before he died.(Matt 24:14)
Do you realize many scriptures say the ALL the world heard the gospel? So, we must then assume that too was accompished dear brother :laughing7:
I have more to say but I am at work :sigh:
QuoteThe Christian congregation would become known, not by miraculous works but by love. Who are the ones that have closely adhered to Jesus command to "love one another" and not be involved in the wars of the nations, but rather have beaten "their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears" ?(Isaiah 2:4)
Well we can agree on this part :happygrin:
God bless
kept
Kim Wrote
QuoteIn regards to coveting spiritual gifts and we look at what prophesying means, its to "edify the church". I cant say edifying the church has passed away grin Gees love itself "edifieth" so I hope not grin (couldnt resist). Even knowledge in the sense that one knowledge (that which we add to our faith) and certain developments (that are to abound in us) appear to keep us from being barren or unfruitful in our knowledge of Him.
Maybe certain things "pass away" out of our own experience (which were helpful) to where we were at one time in relation to where we are going, like "onto perfection'. The building up of the body unto the fullness of Christ (till the day dawns and the light of our precious stone shines) maybe?
:iagree: :HeartThrob:
QuoteMaybe certain things "pass away" out of our own experience
My friend always says "we move from pentecost to tabernacles" and just as you wrote - there seems to be a place where we got "the gifts" it was exciting, it drew us to know more about God and the things of Him.... but then we come to a place where that is no longer our focus - its like WE BECOME ONE WITH HIM and the Gifts are just WHO WE ARE when HE IS FLOWING THROUGH US.
So could we say pentecost is sort of a "UPON US" and then we come to a place of "IN US" :dontknow:
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.In Pentecost we PLAY like a child would with the GIFTS, but in Tabernacles WE BECOME THE GIFT :HeartThrob:
Thoughts :dontknow:
:goodpost:
I second that :goodpost: loveroftruth and add a :Urock:
Its a necessary process to be able to lay those things down as they become our center instead of the Lord of the gifts
But when He is ready He takes them up within us
Im still waiting on much to be taken up again and manifested again, but, while I wait I just stay focused on Him as much as possible
I read most of Brother Lawrence's book 'Practicing the Presence of God' again last night. That book never grows old. It just reinforces where our focus is to be, the rest will follow.
And their works do follow them. Doesnt it say that somwhere?
kept
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 14, 2007, 11:42:29 PM
QuoteJesus said no, but rather those who are fulfilling the commission to preach earthwide the "good news of the kingdom" that he gave to his disiples three days before he died.(Matt 24:14)
Do you realize many scriptures say the ALL the world heard the gospel? So, we must then assume that too was accompished dear brother :laughing7:
I have more to say but I am at work :sigh:
Hi Loveroftruth,
Jesus, in answering his apostles question on how to identify the "sign of (his) presence ("coming",
King James Bible) and of the conclusion of the system of things" at Matthew 24:3, gave features that would be recognizable to those who are like "eagles"(Matt 24:28) These features, such as "nation...against nation, and kingdom against kingdom....food shortages....earthquakes in one place after another" (Matt 24:7) were just the beginning of the "pangs of distress"(Matt 24:8) that began when Jesus received the "ruleship, and dignity and kingdom" in 1914. Jesus then further emphasized that before the 'end comes', that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached into all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations." This world wide educational work is being fulfilled just as Jesus commanded, in some 235 lands and islands of the sea, during the "conclusion of the system of things". Only when this assigned work has been accomplished to God's satisfaction, will he bring this "system" to an end. We are personally living during this time period.
At Matthew 13:3-9, Jesus gave an illustration on the "kingdom", whereby a "sower" had cast "seeds", some alongside the road, others in "rocky places", still others among the "thorns", and finally some fell on "fine soil". Jesus, in giving more information on the "kingdom" being sown, then gives another ilustration at Matthew 13:24-30. A "man" sows "fine seed", but this "fine seed" is intermingled with "weeds" by "an enemy". This "man" is Jesus Christ, started sowing "fine seeds" of the kingdom from 29 C.E. onward, following his baptism by John.(Mark 1:14,15)
Jesus then brings this illustration all the way down to our time period, for in the illustration, the owner of the field tells his slaves not to "collect the wheat" until the "harvest". Jesus explains the meaning of this illustration or parable, saying: "The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things."(Matt 13:37-40)
Jesus, just before his ascension to heaven, told the disciples: "You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de´a and Sa·mar´i·a and to the most distant part of the earth."(Acts 1:8) Hence, the "good news of the kingdom" is presently being preached to all mankind, as the 'master's slaves' are following his command. We are now living during this "harvest" time, in which the "wheat" is being separated from the "weeds". Few, though, would be "fine soil".(Matt 13:8)
At Matthew 25, Jesus gave another illustration of a man who is about to "travel abroad" and before leaving, commits to his "slaves" some "talents".(In modern values a talent of silver would be reckoned at approximately $6,606.00 and a talent of gold at $385,350.00) These "talents" represent the commission to make disciples of Christ. The man who was about to "travel abroad" is Jesus, which pictures the time period following his death until he receives the kingdom.(Dan 7:3,14) Hence, following his enthronement as king in 1914, he proceeds to ensure that during the "harvest" time, the work of making known God's kingdom is accomplished to his Father's satisfaction and "then the end will come". In this illustration, there is one "slave" whom the "master" calls "sluggish", having buried the "talent" in the "ground".(Matt 25:26) This "slave" was unwilling to use the 'master's talent' so as to gain the "master" more. Thus the "master" now says: "Therefore take away the talent from him and give it to him that has the ten talents. For to everyone that has, more will be given and he will have abundance; but as for him that does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.'"(Matt 25:28-30)
Jesus further spoke of separating the "sheep and the goats" at Matthew 25:31-33. In order for that to be done, a person must go to the homes of people, or in the marketplace, or wherever people are, just as Jesus and the apostles did. The apostle Paul said that he "did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house."(Acts 20:20) This work has yet to be completed.
:cloud9: Jaareshiah; I commend you for your obvious dedication to study and your willingness to share. But I have to tell you most here have already experienced what you are telling us hasn't happened yet, or hasn't happened since the disciples or ended with the disciples, however you choose to phrase it. They told me that 21 years ago. But it was TOO LATE, I'd already experienced it! And so I tell you, He is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and that was written way before it "ended". Blessings to you in your search for Truth always.......
Jaareshiah
I lean torwards a preterist view, so most of what you wrote is not how I interpret the scriptures you posted :icon_queen:
Yes, I know - where is the darn can of worms smilie??
HI LT
Indeed it was IS and WILL be......This is no lie.,,for mine for some overlooked and NOT understood.
t 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the """end """"come.
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Taffy on November 15, 2007, 09:15:44 PM
HI LT
Indeed it was IS and WILL be......This is no lie.,,for mine for some overlooked and NOT understood.
t 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the """end """"come.
Blessings
Taffy
Hey Brother,
What do you think the "end" looks like? :girlheart: :boyheart:
LT
CHRIST is the END of our faith..the Beginning and the END,, THE ALPHA and OMEGA......but one has to HEAR of the good news to believe IT.
its a HE..not an event.....THESE are spirtual TRUTHS hidden from our eyes.
yo HAVE received the END of your FAITH being CHRIST in YOU....THE salvation of your SOUL
CHRIST is the END of this WORLD....BEING HIM in YOU
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
AGaIN the END is HE....
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
ESTABLISHED in WHO?
Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
WHO IS the END of the PROMISE?
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
m 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
who IS THE end OF THE LAW?..ITS A HE.....
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
CHRIST...OUR HOPE of GLORY?
Hbr 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.
Christ again..our HOPE of Glory
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last
THATS who the END looks like for mine LT..shame on those who wait for the rapture...TIS a shame indeed.
AS for the GOSPEL be preached to THE WORLD..this for mine is what it means...
Rome was the Capital of the Anceint WORLD..its Hidden and overlooked, Red letter spoke in a POST a while back..we have to READ these things a THOUSAND times BEFORE we get it...never a more true word spoken for mine.,,the revelation always comes from WITHIN..piece by piece
ROME was the WORLD which is liked to the FLESH of EVERYMAN...paul was SENT TO preach there...
23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
The spiritual JEW has to come OUT of ROME( the world=flesh)..
.t 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
at one time we WERE all LOST in ROME....He FINDS us not US HIM
2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found [me].
every man has HIS appointed TIME
Act 28:11 And after three months we departed in a ship of Alexandria, which had wintered in the isle, whose sign was Castor and Pollux.
Act 28:12 And landing at Syracuse, we tarried [there] three days.
Act 28:13 And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli:
BE Blessed
Taffy
I will just briefly say that many of us have looked into what is coming in Tabernacles. Like God, we speak by faith those things that are not as though they were. This is the way of God. However, as I understand it, only Jesus has experienced Tabernacles because this is the realm where no flesh can enter and reveals the transformation of our physical bodies into immortal ones like as He had after His resurrection.
The "gift ministries" were given to "some" for the edifying of the Body of Christ for the work of the ministry UNTIL we all come to the unity of the faith and into a perfect man and to the fulness of the stature of Christ.
I know that many trust their feelings more than the scriptures these days and this is a personal decision for all. But, for those who still hold the scriptures as the truth, we have not yet been changed and we have not all come to unity and we have not come to the fulness of the stature of Christ or to a perfect man. So, the ministry gifts have not passed away and they have not been given to all.
Paul taught in the context of I Cor. 12 that all are not Christ in themselves, but we are members in particular of His Body. The eye is not the hand and the ear is not the eye. In this same context, he asks "are all apostles" and "are all prophets". The assumed answer is "no" in the same way that all members of the human body are not all eyes or ears.
I look forward with great anticipation to the day when that which is perfect has come and these "pentecostal age" gifts will have passed away. But, scripturally, we are not there yet. But, I do think we are getting close.
I think we have all bee hurt when these gift ministries acted immaturely and abused the people by lording over and merchandizing what they had been given for the benefit of all. But, the "manchild" must come out of a mature church and the gift ministries are God's way to bringing about this maturity. We cannot throw out the ways of God for our own "better ideas", but we must learn to do what has been done in the flesh except in the spirit this time.
John
:cloud9: The Word and the Spirit are one. Each reveal each other's nature, building that which is perfect inside us. The Word reveals the Spirit first, for without the foundation of the Word in us, the Spirit will not manifest itself very much, because the Spirit comes to perform the Word.
The order of that revealing is reversed at a certain point, according to the timing and will of the Workman. Then the Spirit, once it's nature is revealed thru the Word begins to reveal itself more, both as the hidden Word, and in manifestations in gifts, dreams and visions.
One is not greater than another, and one cannot be had without the other. The problem arises because in any group, people are in one stage or the other. Both are right, according to where the Master Builder has them in their walk. Blessings to all......
These gifts are done away in the assembly...as that is the context of the Love chapter....when the assembly is a mature man, whole, healed, knowing; and therefore loving one another...isn't that the definition of being healed?
Why would I need to prophesy, if the Christ in you were a man already knowing all?
Why would I need to speak in tongues, if the Christ in you already knew the mystery?
Why administer the gift of healing, if you were healed.
Do we know all? Are we all healed? I'm not and if we are all honest, none of us are. I need the healing of the leaves, every joint of supply. I would be sorely dissappointed if their was no body to administer to me those things I can't administer to myself. And how inadiquate I would feel if the only medicine I had for someone was convincing them of the head knowledge of Jesus being the son of God.
I understand pre-terism, and agree with it, but it isn't the end of the story....it's the beginning.
:goodpost: Sarah nicely summarized
Blessings
QuoteThe Word reveals the Spirit first, for without the foundation of the Word in us, the Spirit will not manifest itself very much, because the Spirit comes to perform the Word.
The order of that revealing is reversed at a certain point, according to the timing and will of the Workman. Then the Spirit, once it's nature is revealed thru the Word begins to reveal itself more, both as the hidden Word, and in manifestations in gifts, dreams and visions.
Well that is the first time I have seen written what is happening............
QuoteThese gifts are done away in the assembly...as that is the context of the Love chapter....when the assembly is a mature man, whole, healed, knowing; and therefore loving one another...isn't that the definition of being healed?
Why would I need to prophesy, if the Christ in you were a man already knowing all?
Why would I need to speak in tongues, if the Christ in you already knew the mystery?
Why administer the gift of healing, if you were healed.
I agree with the premise, but do not agree we are there yet. Read it again:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
I think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm. But, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.
John
QuoteI think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm. But, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.
John
John,
Could it be that we have read this with the thought that it is a corporate thing that happens all at one time? Could it be possible that we get there individually one by one? i.e John comes to a season where he no longer needs a prophetic word becuase God wants to be your word, and you find you longer need a teacher, and you find when you are sick, it is God who has a different plan..... but Sally next door still needs all these things.....
I have to say in my walk I cant ignore how much it has changed for me...
I've thought about this too, Christine. Not a mass happening but one by one...
I don't know why but this song came up in my spirit
How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
Cool
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 18, 2007, 02:23:27 PM
QuoteI think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm. But, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.
John
John,
Could it be that we have read this with the thought that it is a corporate thing that happens all at one time? Could it be possible that we get there individually one by one? i.e John comes to a season where he no longer needs a prophetic word becuase God wants to be your word, and you find you longer need a teacher, and you find when you are sick, it is God who has a different plan..... but Sally next door still needs all these things.....
I have to say in my walk I cant ignore how much it has changed for me...
:cloud9: I think the thought of it being a corporate thing, sort of "grandfathered" itself in with the rapture false doctrine.......
QuoteI think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm.
If a group of believers grew through each joint of supply within the body, and came to the unity of faith...then they would no longer need the 'in part' in the assembly amongst themselves. Does Jesus need to be healed? Does He need a word of Knowledge? But still, those they minister to would need the 'in part'.
QuoteCould it be possible that we get there individually one by one?
Where 2 or 3 are gathered is where we see Christ in the mirror...it can't be a one-man show. It's in the design...we are not all an eye. :HeartThrob:
QuoteBut, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.
Jesus didn't flaunt himself, it seems He allowed people to recognize Him. Also note that the kingdom of God among them was not what the people of the time expected and therefore didn't see it. Perhaps you are expecting something visually?
I ask, "today, would you want your children to come under the typical fivefold ministry?"
My neighbor, invited me over for coffee yesterday. As we visited in the wonderful presence of God this young woman mentioned that another mother had invited their family to their ten year old son's baptism ceremony at the "First Baptist Church." Both families have sons the same age and these sons are best friends. Christie also mentioned that earlier in the day they had been to the Catholic church for a bazaar and her nine year old son said he thought the sanctuary quite beautiful and hinted that he would like to be able to pray there some day.
After coffee we prayed for Christie's children that they would learn God dwells within and He is with them always. We asked the Father that He might begin speaking to and nourishing a relationship with these precious little ones.
The Harlot tries to get her talons into our children early.
"So let us not talk falsely now/The hour is getting late."
from "All Along the Watchtower"
QuoteQuote
Where 2 or 3 are gathered is where we see Christ in the mirror...it can't be a one-man show. It's in the design...we are not all an eye. Heart
We cant deny that we are on an individual walk and when we are connected to Him we are then connected to others. I believe Organized Religion has taught us that its all about the corporate - well the corporate cant happen if each person individually isnt walking in obedience with God :2c:
It is what we nurture with HIM individually that then spills out to others.. But we have had it backwards for so long - we have told others that its all about corporate and so you have a bunch of people in a HORIZONTAL relationship instead of a vertical that leads to horizonal :girlheart:
QuoteIt is what we nurture with HIM individually that then spills out to others.. But we have had it backwards for so long - we have told others that its all about corporate and so you have a bunch of people in a HORIZONTAL relationship instead of a vertical that leads to horizonal
That's how I see it LT ............ "horizontal just happens"
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
The church was in its infancy at the time of this writing; it was a child. The child never grew up and became delinquent. However, there has always been a hidden remnant of mature sons through out each century
:cloud9: AMEN Christine! Preach it, girl! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Pierac on November 13, 2007, 04:37:42 PM
1Co 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1Co 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Do we only know "in part" as Paul said he does? Seems so, does any one know of any other scripture on the topic?
Paul
What does "now" and "then" mean, though?
1Co 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three;
but the greatest of these is charity.
Seems to me that the "difference" it between being
A CHILD and being
A SON.
Between being "yet carnal" having "the earnest of the spirit" and having "gone on unto perfection" having received "the adoption of sons". (Christ IN YOU, the Hope of Glory = "when that which is perfect is come"??)
Paul did not say that he HAD NOT "attained unto the resurrection of the dead"; he said he COUNTED IT NOT and told us to "be thus minded" and "walk by the same rule", right?
Why?
Job 9:20
If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.I think the problem lies in what we think being "perfect" means.
As I see it, we are "perfected" IN LOVE.
It is by our fruits that we shall be known (and those who are His are made manifest).
1Jo 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.Just my :2c:
I agree that it is an individual thing that we come to the place that we no longer need these men in our lives (at least to a lesser extent). I know men like Eby still speak to me so I am not there. However, I think that this verse speaks to where many have come:
Amo 6:1 Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!
Amo 6:2 Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border?
Amo 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Amo 6:4 That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;
Amo 6:5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
Amo 6:6 That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.
Please do not dismiss this out of hand as I know that this is the Lord at least for me. When Israel came to the promised land (Tabernacles), I believe that 2 1/2 tribes received their inheritance on the side of Jordan without enemies to defeat. But, they were told that they could not rest in their possession until all of their brethren were at rest, also. Many who are walking in the deeper truths of Sonship, seem to live their lives "individually" like those that Amos spoke of and have ceased to be grieved for their brethren that are still in bondage to the Harlot.
Many enjoy their rest on couches of ivory and spend their days passing the anointing back and forth among themselves. They invent poems and songs and share revelations as those who have already matured to the point that they no longer need ministers in their lives. But, they do not share the heart of God because they are not grieved enough for those still in Babylonian bondage enough to go fight for them until they come into Tabernacles, also.
It is easy to sit back fat and sassy pointing the finger at the old order 5-fold ministries and those who are under their spell. But, we will not step up and fulfill these roles as full grown Sons who will do so without fleecing the sheep or misreprestenting the Lord. Not everyone will find us on the internet folks.
God has struck the unrighteous shepherds to some extent, but there is much more to come. But, when the sheep are scattered into the hills, He still looks at them and weeps as sheep having no shepherd. The next step is for Him to gather them together again in flocks under shepherds after His own heart so that He can feed them and recover them. But, He will do this as the Son in the Sons and not independent of us.
Jesus is again telling me "If you love me, feed my sheep". I cannot sit back and enjoy my liberty while the rest of the creation suffers in futility. But, each must decide for themselves where they stand. I am not calling for the 5-fold as it has traditionally been done in the soul. But, for a 5-fold ministering out of the Most Holy Place without the flesh mixed in. The manifestation of the Sons of God is not all about the Sons. It is about a groaning creation waiting for these Sons to come back for them. I am so glad that men like Eby did not cease to be used as ministry gifts before I came along.
John
Good post Taffy :thumbsup: (didn't quote it since it was so long) :happygrin:
That is how I am seeing "come out OF HER my people" these days.
It's all about being BORN AGAIN, about being "delivered of the child" and Christ said that we would be "as A WOMAN whose hour has come to be delivered of the CHILD".
We have to come out of THE WOMAN (THE FLESH) so that we can be born OF THE SPIRIT.
We are "saved IN CHILDBEARING". :cheerleader:
John,
How do we "take it to them" though? Can we do so by going to church? Will they listen or even give us the opportunity to speak or share these things? In my experience, they do not. They will cut you off quicker that you can say "Hello".
Just wondering what you suggest?
Chris Wrote
Quote
What does "now" and "then" mean, though?
1Co 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Chris, I didnt totally understand what you were saying here but I sense it is really good :thumbsup: Any way to break it down a little more for us who have to get is simple :laughing7: :girlheart:
QuoteWe cant deny that we are on an individual walk and when we are connected to Him we are then connected to others. I believe Organized Religion has taught us that its all about the corporate - well the corporate cant happen if each person individually isnt walking in obedience with God
It is what we nurture with HIM individually that then spills out to others.. But we have had it backwards for so long - we have told others that its all about corporate and so you have a bunch of people in a HORIZONTAL relationship instead of a vertical that leads to horizonal
It is funny how we see 2 different things concerning what organized religion has taught us. I could be wrong but this is how I felt the mainstream taught....
seek, and pray, and built yourself up, and then when we come together it will awesome. I am now witnessing a second church split from the tiny church I went to over 2 years ago. I have sat under ministers frustrated and lashing out at the people because change isn't seen....the congregation must not be praying enough, fasting enough. I actually felt sorry for the minister because he was at the church every day, and night, fasting, tongue speaking, and yet frustration. We would have cycles of good times, but during the lows...others were looked on as not doing their part.
what if the building up and growth of the man isn't in individual efforts, but in the love we have for one another. The point of the love chapter isn't the body for the gifts...but the gifts for the body for love..for love..for love. It is
every joint that supplies.
It is a little ironic that I speak this way since I don't attend church...but then again that isn't the picture of the body growing up IMO
Sarah,
That is so interesting - you must have been at a unique church... I always heard the opposite or their actions did not match their words.
Someone once told me that I should be in church because God uses people rubbing on us to teach us to love :laughing7: :laughing7: My answer was that I get plenty opportunities and challenges in the world to work that love in :laughing7: :laughing7: :HeartThrob:
Glad to hear what you experienced :girlheart:
QuoteSomeone once told me that I should be in church because God uses people rubbing on us to teach us to love My answer was that I get plenty opportunities and challenges in the world to work that love in
:grin: I hear you there.
Yes, we all do come from unique experiences don't we? :HeartThrob:
I would love to fellowship with people face to face, and sometimes ache for it; but the thought of sitting in a pew listening to stuff that makes my stomach knot up is not appealing.
Iv'e spent years doing the individual thing, and it was wonderful...but it is different now and I can't shake it. It is as if He won't allow me to see Him as an island anymore, but to seek Him in others. I don't know...it's humbling for sure...especially when the majority of my contact with others is via internet.
Some people regard the mirror as the new covenant, or the law of grace, but I see it as the face of someone I can see Christ in. When the Christ in me sees the Christ in you, He's looking in a mirror. Iv'e had glimpses of this, and it is beautiful.
:cloud9: Amen Sarah, I witness that....... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Chris on November 18, 2007, 09:44:32 PM
Good post Taffy :thumbsup: (didn't quote it since it was so long) :happygrin:
That is how I am seeing "come out OF HER my people" these days.
It's all about being BORN AGAIN, about being "delivered of the child" and Christ said that we would be "as A WOMAN whose hour has come to be delivered of the CHILD".
We have to come out of THE WOMAN (THE FLESH) so that we can be born OF THE SPIRIT.
We are "saved IN CHILDBEARING". :cheerleader:
That is so cool. And, what is a child if not someone who is seeing the world for the first time?
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Quote from: hopeful :link=topic=1354.msg12368#msg12368 date=1195391635
I've thought about this too, Christine. Not a mass happening but one by one...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christine and Hopeful,
That has appeared to me as well, some time ago while praying and also in a dream
I had about every man in his own order, like standing in line at a market check out line, everytime I tried to move ahead the line just went slower and everytime I shied away and moved to the back the line just went faster so I saw this: that we can niether speed the process up or slow it down because it is in Gods good time and not ours
as to when and how far things go out and come back in like the ocean tides.
One by one has been how it has appeared to me for many years regardless of what the churches are saying about all this corporate hoopala, there have always been those who have went before us and those who come after us in an order, we can't change that, corporate or otherwise.
Besides how big is corporate when devided up into hundreds of denominations all with their own rules and doctrines, is 100, a thousand, two and a half million, how big is corporate? Besides that I can't see where it is physicaly possible to build a corporate church in this world large enough to hold all of the all in all's that shall be in God when God shall be all in all. We are told that where as little as even two or three gather there our Lord is also, I trust what the word has said above the doctrines of men.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Quote from: Chris on November 18, 2007, 09:48:35 PM
John,
How do we "take it to them" though? Can we do so by going to church? Will they listen or even give us the opportunity to speak or share these things? In my experience, they do not. They will cut you off quicker that you can say "Hello".
Just wondering what you suggest?
Chris,
I cannot answer your question because I do not think the way has been revealed yet. All I can do is answer according to how God deals with me. Remember the account of Abraham as revealed in Romans 4? Sarah was barren by the Lord and past the time of women to conceive when God initiated His miracle by speaking to Abraham and calling him the father of many nations. Abraham had no children, but God called those things that be not as though they were. Why did He do this? Because many are called but few are chosen. Abraham believed God and gave Him glory knowing that He who had promised was able to perform. Then, God caused Sarah to gain strength to conceive and to bring forth Isaac.
Notice that Abraham did not name and claim what He wanted and Abraham did not produce the child of promise by his faith. No, God was the Author and Finisher of the work, but Abraham believed in between these two works of God.
I used to be used during my Pentecostal days as an apostle in church planting, but about 3 years ago, God sent me to where I am now, but did not tell me to start a work. During this time of Heavenly silence or barreness, God has done a lot of work in me internally concerning Tabernacles and Sonship. I assumed like most on here that these gift ministries had passed away with Pentecost and gladly took my place at the Father's table with the other Sons. It really has been a wonderful time of an internal work as He quieted my ministry for this purpose.
But, a few weeks ago, God initiated a change. He bagan to speak to me about His apostolic calling in my life again. This was a total surprise and not what I was asking for or even desiring. He started by waking me in the night and saying "If you love me, then feed my sheep".
So, Chris, to answer your question, I am agreeing with God and again calling myself what He calls me. I am giving glory to God knowing that what He has promised, He alone is able to perform. I have repented of exalting my ideas about gift ministries over His Word by believing that these have passed away before we have all come to the unity of the faith and to the fulness of the stature of Christ. Finally, I am waiting with anticipation with a committment to God that when He opens an effectual door of ministry that I will walk through it boldly and not allow my pride or my false humility or my desire to remain at ease to keep me from doing what He has sent me here to do.
I can tell you one thing of a surety, Chris, that when it happens, it will look nothing like what we have seen before and all have rejected for its carnal mixture. In the same way that the ministers in the first century turned the world upside down under the Pentecostal anointing and were persecuted by the Passover ministers of Judaism, when the Sons of God begin to minister from the Tabernacles realm, it will be so far beyond what was done in Pentecost that it will turn this world upside down and cause a war between the ministers who are Sons and those who are not yet. Jesus alone will be seen and glorified in the Sons instead of men being seen and glorified as it has been in the age that is passing away.
Even so, Come, Lord Jesus.
John
I shared this well known vision with my neighbor yesterday. Joian and I have also discussed it of late. Could this be the coming ministry? This was written decades ago and I have read it a number of times.
http://www.lit4ever.org/tommyhicks.html
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2007, 04:43:31 AM
Quote from: Chris on November 18, 2007, 09:44:32 PM
Good post Taffy :thumbsup: (didn't quote it since it was so long) :happygrin:
That is how I am seeing "come out OF HER my people" these days.
It's all about being BORN AGAIN, about being "delivered of the child" and Christ said that we would be "as A WOMAN whose hour has come to be delivered of the CHILD".
We have to come out of THE WOMAN (THE FLESH) so that we can be born OF THE SPIRIT.
We are "saved IN CHILDBEARING". :cheerleader:
That is so cool. And, what is a child if not someone who is seeing the world for the first time?..
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Hi Molly..
Sorry me post was long...Indeed sis saved in Child bearing...happy you see it sis...
Very much as Paul when he says..
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. ...AS ONE BEING A CHILD\SLAVE AS ONE UNDER AND teaching law...
JOY for mine is NAME for Christ..He is OUR
JOY.Jhn 16:21 A
woman when she is in
travail hath sorrow, because
her hour is come: but as soon as she is
delivered of the child, she
remembereth no more the anguish, for
joy that a man is born into the world.
For mine ISS 65 & 66 peaks more of this....
Isa 65:19 And
I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and
joy in my people: and the
voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. speaks here of the Children of Promise..born again as the Children of faith aka Isaac
The DAYS of the Child shall
cease ....born AGAIN through the travail of childbirth unto a SON\HEIR of promise.
Isa 65:20 There
shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor
an old man that hath not filled his days: for the
child shall die an hundred years old ; but the
sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: fire walker on November 19, 2007, 08:40:39 AM
Quote from: hopeful :link=topic=1354.msg12368#msg12368 date=1195391635
I've thought about this too, Christine. Not a mass happening but one by one...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christine and Hopeful,
That has appeared to me as well, some time ago while praying and also in a dream
I had about every man in his own order, like standing in line at a market check out line, everytime I tried to move ahead the line just went slower and everytime I shied away and moved to the back the line just went faster so I saw this: that we can niether speed the process up or slow it down because it is in Gods good time and not ours
as to when and how far things go out and come back in like the ocean tides.
One by one has been how it has appeared to me for many years regardless of what the churches are saying about all this corporate hoopala, there have always been those who have went before us and those who come after us in an order, we can't change that, corporate or otherwise.
Besides how big is corporate when devided up into hundreds of denominations all with their own rules and doctrines, is 100, a thousand, two and a half million, how big is corporate? Besides that I can't see where it is physicaly possible to build a corporate church in this world large enough to hold all of the all in all's that shall be in God when God shall be all in all. We are told that where as little as even two or three gather there our Lord is also, I trust what the word has said above the doctrines of men.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Firewalker,
One day while I was reading the part in the Bible about the Tower of Babel, the Lord spoke to me that this is what religion is - and the corporate push for man to unite.. it is our efforts to build the tower up to heaven. He then went on to show me that it was HE that created the denominations, to protect man from themselves, for if one group would have the ability to have such power it would not be pretty... just imagine the roman catholic church if they became the "one religion"
So in essence he took us and and scattered us and gave us all a different language :mshock:
But we as man look at denominations and think it is terrible and we try so hard to take the walls down, for surely it could only be Gods will that we all unite in the flesh :dontknow:
I think our unity is in the Spirit and many times we get blessed to connect with others where we get to taste the natural unity... I believe their may be much more to come as we grow in Him :HeartThrob: I just know trying to make people unite and love each other has never worked :mshock:
Thanks for sharing what you did :girlheart:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 19, 2007, 12:44:44 PM
So in essence he took us and and scattered us and gave us all a different language :mshock:
Hi Christine! :HeartThrob:
This is what keeps me from getting so freaked out when I hear another "language" and don't understand it.
Quote from: hopeful on November 19, 2007, 01:03:57 PM
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 19, 2007, 12:44:44 PM
So in essence he took us and and scattered us and gave us all a different language :mshock:
Hi Christine! :HeartThrob:
This is what keeps me from getting so freaked out when I hear another "language" and don't understand it.
Ahhhh - Good for you! I still have a hard time with it :mshock: :msealed:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 19, 2007, 12:44:44 PM
Quote from: fire walker on November 19, 2007, 08:40:39 AM
Quote from: hopeful :link=topic=1354.msg12368#msg12368 date=1195391635
I've thought about this too, Christine. Not a mass happening but one by one...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christine and Hopeful,
That has appeared to me as well, some time ago while praying and also in a dream
I had about every man in his own order, like standing in line at a market check out line, everytime I tried to move ahead the line just went slower and everytime I shied away and moved to the back the line just went faster so I saw this: that we can niether speed the process up or slow it down because it is in Gods good time and not ours
as to when and how far things go out and come back in like the ocean tides.
One by one has been how it has appeared to me for many years regardless of what the churches are saying about all this corporate hoopala, there have always been those who have went before us and those who come after us in an order, we can't change that, corporate or otherwise.
Besides how big is corporate when devided up into hundreds of denominations all with their own rules and doctrines, is 100, a thousand, two and a half million, how big is corporate? Besides that I can't see where it is physicaly possible to build a corporate church in this world large enough to hold all of the all in all's that shall be in God when God shall be all in all. We are told that where as little as even two or three gather there our Lord is also, I trust what the word has said above the doctrines of men.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Firewalker,
One day while I was reading the part in the Bible about the Tower of Babel, the Lord spoke to me that this is what religion is - and the corporate push for man to unite.. it is our efforts to build the tower up to heaven. He then went on to show me that it was HE that created the denominations, to protect man from themselves, for if one group would have the ability to have such power it would not be pretty... just imagine the roman catholic church if they became the "one religion"
So in essence he took us and and scattered us and gave us all a different language :mshock:
But we as man look at denominations and think it is terrible and we try so hard to take the walls down, for surely it could only be Gods will that we all unite in the flesh :dontknow:
I think our unity is in the Spirit and many times we get blessed to connect with others where we get to taste the natural unity... I believe their may be much more to come as we grow in Him :HeartThrob: I just know trying to make people unite and love each other has never worked :mshock:
Thanks for sharing what you did :girlheart:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes Loveoftruth,
and your reply seems to bring an answer to the subject of this thread, each of these countless denominations have some truth in part no matter how small or large that church is even home gatherings formal or informal have the same, each member in particular sees in part in this life as we are drawn in the word to maturity, the women in labor longs to bear the spirit child that is within her.
While we are on this subject I remember a thread someone posted over at Gospel for today discussion forums before it was closed down there was a good article posted about how in spirit we are always assembled in Christ, I don't know if you ever participated on that forum or not, if you did you might remember that article yourself.
Not much else to share at this moment.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Nice avatar Fireinfolding..not seen that one sis.
Thanks for sharing
moving Glory unto Glory
lol The age of a Child\slave to the AGE of a SON\Heir.....
The Night Having PAST..... NOW in THE LIGHT of THE DAY.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.
been chatting of this some sis..in relation
Mat 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
A connection here maybe? :icon_flower:
Blesings
TTaffy
Hey Fireinfolding,
Great photo! I love to see who is behind the words :girlheart:
Taffy,
Have you read the forum rules?
Courtesy issues
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=54.0
Please refrain from quoting a long post merely to give it a thumbs up or I agree or make short spiritual comments, you can quote a portion of the poster's text and then say "I agree" or post a smiley or just say great post "Name-of-Poster".
This will be your last and final warning :mlaugh: :mlaugh: :mlaugh: :mlaugh: :mlaugh: :mlaugh: :mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo:
Wheres that That Chrissie.. :icon_flower:spending time with man No doubt :icon_flower:
Cant ya ask her to come join Tent...Gee we go back aways... :icon_flower:
Lol sis Ise what saying chains , slaves, Bound, I prison been saying it for some time... :icon_flower:
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are **expired**, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Yep see this...
could it be That wording catches US ?.....THE THOUSAND YRS being TWOFOLD..one as the NIGHT which PAST.The other those In the DAY who reign with HIM?
Rev 20:2 he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Can this NOT be the flesh which is BOUND (as one under LAW) in the GRAVE until NIGHT has PASSED..?##THEN when the Thousand years have Passed as a WATCH in the NIGHT ..the flesh is LOOSED from the BOTTOMLESS PIT?..that the rest of the dead never LIVED until the thousand YRS( watch of the night HAD fininished) ..
The AGE of the Child has to END before we DWELL in the First Resurection
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Im still looking meself at the Four watches ..cant help to see theres something there?...relating to that which has past in the NIGHT
ROME I relate to the Flesh sis...THE ANCIENT world capital....
being released FROM Rome,,,
Christ actually did release the JEWS from ROME..but not in the manner they THOUGHT :happygrin:
I recal taking to Rosey ages back about ROME...ALL THOSE in ROME called to BE SAINTS...dig it up and tell me what you think?
PREACH the GOSPEL unto all THE WORLD..then the END shall COME?
Just seeing FOUR in relation to ALL earthly matters....the Garment which cover the four CORNERS of the EARTH ...some things there concerning the FOUTH watch..just cant link it as I like..but you know how it goes... :icon_flower:
Talk later..
mes got to go Sleepies SOON.
Love ya
Taffy
mes BAD LT..my fault as always :icon_flower:
thanks for the reminder sis :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Taffy on November 20, 2007, 02:07:04 AM
Talk later..
mes got to go Sleepies SOON.
Love ya
Taffy
Yous funny Taffy. :happy3: Hope you got good sleepies.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on November 20, 2007, 02:41:58 AM
Taffy, Chrissie has been at TM under Chris (Hello??) LOL Shes responded to you a couple of times and you hadnt responded back. Shes e-mailed ya and hasnt heard back from ya :grin: I told her last night you lost your e-mail password.
Soooooo, She spends more time with me then "a man", give me a break... your going on OLD news bro, you need to catch up. Shes on this forum and the other I come from. But with me on IM most times :bigGrin:
Shes a Crafty one....I got to keep my eyes on you girlies....you go astray :icon_flower:
yeah Kimbo..mes way behind for sure in more ways than One..yehaaaa!
Blesings
Gramster
DRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
im Dull..
just been though :laughing7: Crafty Chrissies Posts.. :laughing7: HOW did I miss them.... :mblush:
I must admit i did miss a few.... :mblush:
sorry Chrissie...
..ya SNEAK....... :icon_flower:
ya both sneaks for not telling me..and ROSEY...you too.. :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
This poor Hamster........................
Blessings
Gramster
yeah i sneak on here Hammy ,
but havent anything to say ? :laughing7:
good stuff though thanks :happy3:
love rose
Hi Holly. :icon_flower:
.ive been going to Bed for the last hour..
but MY old Buddies are keeping me awake... :icon_flower:
Bless ya Girl
Taffy
Nice Psalm!
Having done a watch in the night at sea, I can testify that it can seem like the longest four hours of your life, even like a thousand years.
4 For a thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night. --Psalm 90
The psalmist is commenting on God's perception of time versus man's perception of time. A thousand years is long to man, but to God it is shorter than a day, in fact, shorter than a part of a day (a watch).
5 You sweep men away in the sleep of death;
they are like the new grass of the morning-
6 though in the morning it springs up new,
by evening it is dry and withered.
7 We are consumed by your anger
and terrified by your indignation.
8 You have set our iniquities before you,
our secret sins in the light of your presence. ---Psalm 90
To man, even though his life is transient in the sight of God, like the grass, yet for the man under God's wrath it seems to go on forever, like a watch in the night (which can be very scary).
13 Relent, O LORD! How long will it be?
Have compassion on your servants. --Psalm 90
A plea to God to shorten the time they must experience his wrath--
14 Satisfy us in the morning with your unfailing love,
that we may sing for joy and be glad all our days. ---Psalm 90
Now we see reference to the watch in the night again. The fourth watch is the watch just before the sun dawns. The psalmist asks for morning to come.
15 Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us,
for as many years as we have seen trouble. -Psalm 90
If it was a thousand years of separation and wrath from God, or felt like it, then he asks for that many days in God's grace and presence, from generation to generation.
17 May the favor of the Lord our God rest upon us;
establish the work of our hands for us—
yes, establish the work of our hands.--Psalm 90
But, look here--
4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
[yester]"day"
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, [/i]or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily,
and this:
watch
From H8104
shâmar
shaw-mar'
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).
Those thousand years were daylight hours for God during which, even though it did not seem like it to us, we were in His sight. He was watching us even during the night of our adversity, which also seemed to us to last forever,--he was hedging us about, guarding us, keeping us safe in his sight. The watch in the night, too, is His, not ours. We finally realize he watches over us by day and by night until we, too, can join him on the sea, fledgling water walkers, like chicks taking first flight just before the dawn.
Matthew 14:25
And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. --Matthew 14
Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2007, 03:04:29 AM
yeah i sneak on here Hammy ,
but havent anything to say ? :laughing7:
good stuff though thanks :happy3:
love rose
agh there ya are Rosey..ya old muskerteer :icon_flower:
you HAVENT got anything to SAY...NAH! :icon_flower:
ya Busting on me girl :icon_flower:
Love
Gramster
QuoteThose thousand days were daylight hours for God during which, even though it did not seem like it to us, we were in His sight. He was watching us even during the night of our adversity, which seemed to us to last forever,--he was hedging us about, guarding us, keeping us safe in his sight. The watch in the night, too, is His. We finally realize he watches over us by day and by night until we, too, can join him on the sea, fledgling water walkers, like chicks taking first flight just before the dawn.
Nice stuff Molly.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
The Law TUTORING us to the reality.... :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Taffy on November 20, 2007, 03:12:36 AM
QuoteThose thousand days were daylight hours for God during which, even though it did not seem like it to us, we were in His sight. He was watching us even during the night of our adversity, which seemed to us to last forever,--he was hedging us about, guarding us, keeping us safe in his sight. The watch in the night, too, is His. We finally realize he watches over us by day and by night until we, too, can join him on the sea, fledgling water walkers, like chicks taking first flight just before the dawn.
Nice stuff Molly.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
The Law TUTORING us to the reality.... :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
You mean I could have said all that in 7 words? :laughing7:
:bgdance:
The fourth watch is the worst watch of the day. It starts at 2am or 3am, depending, and it's dark and cold and you're tired and just want to sleep but it's too terrifying to sleep so no problem falling asleep on that watch. And, since you only got about 4 hours of sleep max before it started, you are groggy and out of it, a perception also heightened by terror. Not a pleasant memory. Also, it's the watch reserved for the lowest shipmate on the totem pole, while the captain sleeps.
But, you also get to see the sunrise. :Sparkletooth:
:cloud9: I don't have time to go into all of it right now, but the Lord gave me some things on the watches. Four watches = four parts of the soul, the mind, will, emotions and desires. He comes to us as Spirit walking above the law/waters below the firmament in desires. The desire of all nations shall come and is coming now, whether they be for the Spirit man or the flesh man. When He comes His reward is with Him. Having a rough week.....sigh......Blessings to all.........
Quote from: Molly on November 20, 2007, 03:49:54 AM
Also, it's the watch reserved for the lowest shipmate on the totem pole, while the captain sleeps.
But, you also get to see the sunrise. :Sparkletooth:
Amen, Molly!
Quote from: Chris on November 18, 2007, 09:44:32 PM
Good post Taffy :thumbsup: (didn't quote it since it was so long) :happygrin:
That is how I am seeing "come out OF HER my people" these days.
It's all about being BORN AGAIN, about being "delivered of the child" and Christ said that we would be "as A WOMAN whose hour has come to be delivered of the CHILD".
We have to come out of THE WOMAN (THE FLESH) so that we can be born OF THE SPIRIT.
We are "saved IN CHILDBEARING". :cheerleader:
your a SNEAK :icon_flower:..passing from age to age...Death Unto life. :icon_flower:
Gee..I should have KNOWN..Gee im slow..only three letters missing and i still didnt see you Chris-
sieThanks for the emails , only ive yet to open the mail box..you know me and PCs from old..totally useless.
Heres me thinking you found a man friend and were just very busy..and ya here all along.
I did here about Wilard..thats sad....
Good to see ya agin sis...pray dont be shy with ya posts :icon_flower:
Blessings
Gramster
Quote from: Cardinal on November 20, 2007, 05:06:54 AM
When He comes His reward is with Him. Having a rough week.....sigh......Blessings to all.........
May He come in a powerful way for you this week, Cardinal! :grouppray:
Quote from: mollyYou mean I could have said all that in 7 words?
I enjoyed you edition more Molly :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Taffy on November 20, 2007, 01:16:04 PM
your a SNEAK :icon_flower:..passing from age to age...Death Unto life. :icon_flower:
Blessings
Gramster
:ghaha: I am getting such a kick out of watching this, Taffy!
QuoteOk just kidding. I see the thousand years perfectly without the "watches" but according A "watch"
Yes I understand ...the watch concerning the Thousand days... :icon_flower:
its just those watches ..
lol..as Rosey shared...Can you NOT watch with me :icon_flower:
hour...QuoteDont get me on Rome I just came from a very ROMAN (type, sorta, kinda) site
I did think the watches changes from 3 to 4 was pretty kool as shown in that definition.
Been To Rome and Back aye sis... :icon_flower: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
yeah thanks for sharing that from THREE to
four...
MISSED that one.
hope you had at least 4hrs sleepies..... :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: hopeful on November 20, 2007, 01:20:36 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 20, 2007, 01:16:04 PM
your a SNEAK :icon_flower:..passing from age to age...Death Unto life. :icon_flower:
Blessings
Gramster
:ghaha: I am getting such a kick out of watching this, Taffy!
Hi Holly..
Them girlies are running me amock......mind you they always did...Three of them and just a lonely old Hamster... :Sparkletooth:
They dont change..they SNEAK up on ya Unwares...and I fall for it everytime :happy3:
Blessings
Taffy