Do "eternal Hellers" *really* believe it themselves?

[beartheweak]

I have some logical problems about an eternal Hell. Even when I was a firm Calvinist or Reformed believer, I still didn't understand why believers didn't spend literally every waking second pursuing after converts to Christianity. Why wasn't I doing that? Why wasn't I leaving my job and making evangelism a full-time effort? The best answer I could come up with was that sin "prevented" that much devoutedness.

I also decided that having kids was so horrible that it should even be a sin in itself because it would be wrong for me to bring a new child into the world when they would be chosen by God to end up in either Heaven or Hell (Romans 9:18-21, for instance and from a Calvinist or Reformed perspective). It would be counterproductive for God to threaten us with eternal Hell because any person in their right mind that really believes in eternal Hell would never introduce a precious child into such a horrifying possibility. It's just not worth the risk when the majority of people will end up in Hell!

I felt sorrow for my existing two very young daughters. Not that I would have ever murdered my daughters, but allow me to make a compelling case out of that to show how little sense eternal damnation makes. The more I think about this, the more I realize how much of a disgusting thing it is when a theology makes it more logical to murder a child before they can grow to become mature enough for making an informed choice about whether to accept Jesus or not. The doctrine of Eternal Hell is so vulgar to me now that it makes more since to murder children before they get to a mature age so that they will not even have a chance to go to Hell, but will by default go to Heaven (when I was a Calvinist and then a Reformed Theology believer, I understood God to save the people that were mentally disadvantaged to make a choice at the time of their death, including infants and mentally insane). Surely God does not want us to have so much unwillingness to have a child to the point where it logically makes more since to murder a child than to allow him/her to grow up. A true Calvinist/Reformed believer would not want to even consider having another child. I have been so relieved that this doctrine of eternal Hell is more and more becoming a myth to me. Still, I feel reluctant to fully believe Universal Salvation due to the indoctrination I have received on this subject. I also still have a hard time with the verses that appear to favor eternal damnation (at least for some). It is my goal right now to see if I can become fully convinced.

[Captain.Theophilus]

I agree with you. Your argument alone should be enough to convince people of the ATROCITY that is ET. The real kicker is there's hundreds of other logical arguments that tear the doctrine to shreds as well, and yet the mainline church still believes this tripe? It makes me want to vomit when I think that I taught this to other people.

[Colleen]

Since becoming traumatized by the doctrine of ET and then delivered from it( the fear of my kids going to hell making me nearly insane), I've often wondered if that was Andrea Yates motivation for what she did.

[ded2daworld]

I don't know about Andrea Yates but Susan Smith many years back piled her kids (5?) into the car and drove it into a lake and watched them drown. She freely admitted it and explained she wanted to be assured her precious children would go to be with Jesus and was afraid if she let them grow up to the "age of accountability" , statistically, 4 would later reject Jesus. She said she couldn't bear the thought of even one of her precious children not being with the Lord.

I guess she figured she loved her kids more than God does.  :Chinscratch:

[VineBranch]

I don't know about Andrea Yates but Susan Smith many years back piled her kids (5?) into the car and drove it into a lake and watched them drown. She freely admitted it and explained she wanted to be assured her precious children would go to be with Jesus and was afraid if she let them grow up to the "age of accountability" , statistically, 4 would later reject Jesus. She said she couldn't bear the thought of even one of her precious children not being with the Lord.

I guess she figured she loved her kids more than God does.  :Chinscratch:

I thought Susan admitted it was because her kids were getting in the way of her having an affair with her boyfriend.  Boy did I read the wrong report.  I remember having such a visceral reaction to her.  How could you watch your children drown, probably crying out to you for help, and you just stand there?  I confess, and God forgive me, that was one of the few times I would voted for capital punishment.  I don't remember reading that she was saving her kids from hell.  Thanks for that ded.  At least I can get behind the notion of control freaks, wanting to protect the world from itself.

Coleen, after I read the Andrea Yates report, I saw some pictures of her.  I thought she was just an overwrought lady who could probably use a lot of sleep.  Maybe the lesson is that sometimes we just put too much on people, and they snap.

Perhaps there is a caveat here for Christianity. Maybe it helps with the UR message.  Careful, too much hell can actually cause insanity. People were not created to take this much abuse from your pulpit.  Just my   :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

VB, maybe that is why (IIRC) the Bible instructs us to not be overly righteous... :2c:

No, I don't know B/C/V on that... :dontknow:

[VineBranch]

VB, maybe that is why (IIRC) the Bible instructs us to not be overly righteous... :2c:

That could very well be, I wouldn't be surprised.  It might also be why UR seemed like such a sane thing when I first encountered it.

What does B/C/V mean?

[Lazarus Short]

Book/Chapter/Verse.

[VineBranch]

I have some logical problems about an eternal Hell. Even when I was a firm Calvinist or Reformed believer, I still didn't understand why believers didn't spend literally every waking second pursuing after converts to Christianity. Why wasn't I doing that? Why wasn't I leaving my job and making evangelism a full-time effort? The best answer I could come up with was that sin "prevented" that much devoutedness.

I also decided that having kids was so horrible that it should even be a sin in itself because it would be wrong for me to bring a new child into the world when they would be chosen by God to end up in either Heaven or Hell (Romans 9:18-21, for instance and from a Calvinist or Reformed perspective). It would be counterproductive for God to threaten us with eternal Hell because any person in their right mind that really believes in eternal Hell would never introduce a precious child into such a horrifying possibility. It's just not worth the risk when the majority of people will end up in Hell!

I felt sorrow for my existing two very young daughters. Not that I would have ever murdered my daughters, but allow me to make a compelling case out of that to show how little sense eternal damnation makes. The more I think about this, the more I realize how much of a disgusting thing it is when a theology makes it more logical to murder a child before they can grow to become mature enough for making an informed choice about whether to accept Jesus or not. The doctrine of Eternal Hell is so vulgar to me now that it makes more since to murder children before they get to a mature age so that they will not even have a chance to go to Hell, but will by default go to Heaven (when I was a Calvinist and then a Reformed Theology believer, I understood God to save the people that were mentally disadvantaged to make a choice at the time of their death, including infants and mentally insane). Surely God does not want us to have so much unwillingness to have a child to the point where it logically makes more since to murder a child than to allow him/her to grow up. A true Calvinist/Reformed believer would not want to even consider having another child. I have been so relieved that this doctrine of eternal Hell is more and more becoming a myth to me. Still, I feel reluctant to fully believe Universal Salvation due to the indoctrination I have received on this subject. I also still have a hard time with the verses that appear to favor eternal damnation (at least for some). It is my goal right now to see if I can become fully convinced.

Like we don't have enough mommy and daddy guilt already.  It's your fault your kids are in hell, if you didn't have kids, you won't have made them hell-fodder.  Your parents are horrible and reckless as well, how dare they have you so you could have kids which go to hell. 

[ded2daworld]

My wife and I have 2 grandsons -3 and 1/2 and 1. If anything is gonna bring my wife around to believing UR it'd her love for our grandkids and the fact that the son and daughter-in-law are agnostic so won't be raised to believe anything in the way of a supreme being. She still mentions our adult sons and mentions them for salvation but after years of nightly prayers to no avail - she may have to turn to UR for solace. After going to Episcobal church for about 40 years, my father astounded me. I never talked to him about UR except for casual remarks the last 10 years or so. He's 86 and went to church regularly. I asked him why he stpped going and he said, "I just cannot believe that, the God I know would torture most of the people I've known, for all eternity." Praise God!

[VineBranch]

 :2thumbs: ded's dad.  If that doesn't fill one with hope, I don't know what would.  God can show anybody, anything, anytime, anywhere!!

[misszoolander]

I have some logical problems about an eternal Hell. Even when I was a firm Calvinist or Reformed believer, I still didn't understand why believers didn't spend literally every waking second pursuing after converts to Christianity. Why wasn't I doing that? Why wasn't I leaving my job and making evangelism a full-time effort? The best answer I could come up with was that sin "prevented" that much devoutedness.

I also decided that having kids was so horrible that it should even be a sin in itself because it would be wrong for me to bring a new child into the world when they would be chosen by God to end up in either Heaven or Hell (Romans 9:18-21, for instance and from a Calvinist or Reformed perspective). It would be counterproductive for God to threaten us with eternal Hell because any person in their right mind that really believes in eternal Hell would never introduce a precious child into such a horrifying possibility. It's just not worth the risk when the majority of people will end up in Hell!

I felt sorrow for my existing two very young daughters. Not that I would have ever murdered my daughters, but allow me to make a compelling case out of that to show how little sense eternal damnation makes. The more I think about this, the more I realize how much of a disgusting thing it is when a theology makes it more logical to murder a child before they can grow to become mature enough for making an informed choice about whether to accept Jesus or not. The doctrine of Eternal Hell is so vulgar to me now that it makes more since to murder children before they get to a mature age so that they will not even have a chance to go to Hell, but will by default go to Heaven (when I was a Calvinist and then a Reformed Theology believer, I understood God to save the people that were mentally disadvantaged to make a choice at the time of their death, including infants and mentally insane). Surely God does not want us to have so much unwillingness to have a child to the point where it logically makes more since to murder a child than to allow him/her to grow up. A true Calvinist/Reformed believer would not want to even consider having another child. I have been so relieved that this doctrine of eternal Hell is more and more becoming a myth to me. Still, I feel reluctant to fully believe Universal Salvation due to the indoctrination I have received on this subject. I also still have a hard time with the verses that appear to favor eternal damnation (at least for some). It is my goal right now to see if I can become fully convinced.

If God confirmed to me that ET is real, I would pray that he would annihilate me, so I become non existence and blissfully unaware of the horror that other people (not necessarily myself) would go through.
With that being said, I would not have kids, to take the risk (they may grow to become unbelievers) would mean, by me bringing them into the world, I have a part to play in their eternal destination, If they end up in hell I could never forgive myself, and I find it hard to believe that God would erase my love for them.

[VineBranch]

I decided not to have kids because I didn't want to perpetuate the alcoholic gene.  Right now, I would say, if I had kids and they were going to be in hell, I think I might like them perpetually drunk.

[marie glen]

You know! I really don't think so! Otherwise, as you say 'they' would all be praching nonstop and storming 'heavens' gates with tears and agonizing prayers every moment, wouldn't they? Certainly not sure how it would be expected for one's "joy to be fuLL"...!?

[Song]

I still didn't understand why believers didn't spend literally every waking second pursuing after converts to Christianity.

I also decided that having kids was so horrible that it should even be a sin in itself because it would be wrong for me to bring a new child into the world when they would be chosen by God to end up in either Heaven or Hell

The evangelism you mention I relate to. I still evangelize now, but with much more gentleness and kindness. When I used to believe in ECT, I was desperately worried that my own family like my mom would be burning in hell forever, so I may have been a bit pushy with my evangelism back then, out of fear. That's why I feel sorry for a lot of people still stuck in fundamentalism, like I used to be, since you're afraid to change, since that change could mean eternal conscious torment.  :eek:

Also, the kids concept you mention reminds me of a verse some Christian Antinatalists use

Ecclesiastes 4:3
I congratulate the dead, who have already died, rather than the living, who still have to carry on. 3 But the person who hasn?t been born yet is better off than both of them. He hasn?t seen the evil that is done under the sun.

My personal take is this. God is good, and everything He does is good. So there has to be a good ending for all of us. Universal Salvation through Christ is that happy ending.  :dsunny: