Contradiction regarding the state of Paul's conscience before his conversion?

[Isidore]

This isn't directly related to UR (except in so far as Paul and the New Testament are), but does the New Testament contradict itself regarding the state of Paul's conscience before he was finally converted?

and we all having fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew dialect, Saul, Saul, why me dost thou persecute? hard for thee against pricks to kick! Acts 26:14

A goad was a stick with a pointed piece of iron fastened to the end of it. It was used to prod oxen on when they were plowing, and when a stubborn ox kicked back against the goads (pricks), he would actually wound himself.

This was a common proverb, and Jesus seems to imply here that Paul had been resisting God's call when he was persecuting the Church.

But when he was before the Sanhedrin, Paul said "Men, brethren, I in all good conscience have lived to God unto this day" (Acts 23:1, Young's Literal Translation.)

And writing to Timothy, he said "I am thankful to God, whom I serve from progenitors in a pure conscience" (2 Tim. 1:3, Young's Literal Translation.)

I've never understood this.

And if Paul really never violated his conscience, I don't understand why he would call himself the "chief" of sinners (when other sinners have surely violated their consciences at some time in their lives.)

Do any of you understand this?

This might answer part of my question.

But it doesn't explain why Paul seems to say he had never violated his conscience (in Acts 23:1, and 2 Tim. 1:3), after Jesus seems to have implied he had (in Acts 26:14.)

And Paul seems to include himself among those who must have their "hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience" in Hebrews 10:22.

(He says "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.")

So which is it?

Had he really never violated his conscience (from the day he was born to the day he appeared before the Sanhedrin, and the day he later wrote to Timothy), or was he kicking against the pricks of conscience when he was persecuting the Church, and did he (like other believers) need to have his heart sprinkled (cleansed) from an evil conscience?

Can anyone help?

[jabcat]

With NO specific research into this, my reaction is, the context would be that he was speaking about the time period since he had become a new creature in Christ at his conversion.    "..old things pass away, all things become new".

[eaglesway]

Paul also stated, when he made the comment that he was chief among sinners,

"But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience, as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life...."

'I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. 14And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus..."

It appears that Saul, within the bounds of what his conscience dictated previous to the revelation of Jesus Christ as Lord, considered that he was serving the God of his fathers, but having been shown the malignancy and error of his way, considered it to have been sin(missing the mark) and the whole context of his epistles makes it clear(to me) that he considered himself to have been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. In Romans 6 and 7 he shows the dilemma of the sinful man who thinks he is righteous and the righteous man who thins he is sinful- quite thoroughly, before opening into Romans 8 into the solution to that dilemma- faith in Jesus. He circles around back into the dilemma of the olive tree and the chosen people in Romans 9 -11, then resolving that also, in that eventually all will will be shown mercy- as he was, and as all Israel will...."For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things." (11:32-36)

In the context of his narrative before the Sanhedrin, I believe he was communicating this very thing, that as one, whom they all knew to have been a Hebrew of Hebrews and faithful to the law- he now believed Jesus to be the Messiah of the Jews and also of the whole world, time immemorial"- and was still serving the God of his fathers, following in the way of Messiah.

[Dandelion]

Paul also stated, when he made the comment that he was chief among sinners,

"But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience, as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life...."

'I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. 14And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus..."

It appears that Saul, within the bounds of what his conscience dictated previous to the revelation of Jesus Christ as Lord, considered that he was serving the God of his fathers, but having been shown the malignancy and error of his way, considered it to have been sin(missing the mark) and the whole context of his epistles makes it clear(to me) that he considered himself to have been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. In Romans 6 and 7 he shows the dilemma of the sinful man who thinks he is righteous and the righteous man who thins he is sinful- quite thoroughly, before opening into Romans 8 into the solution to that dilemma- faith in Jesus. He circles around back into the dilemma of the olive tree and the chosen people in Romans 9 -11, then resolving that also, in that eventually all will will be shown mercy- as he was, and as all Israel will...."For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things." (11:32-36)

In the context of his narrative before the Sanhedrin, I believe he was communicating this very thing, that as one, whom they all knew to have been a Hebrew of Hebrews and faithful to the law- he now believed Jesus to be the Messiah of the Jews and also of the whole world, time immemorial"- and was still serving the God of his fathers, following in the way of Messiah.

Agreed, and, just what I thought when I read this, hours before, and got detained from answering. I came back to address this question, and found the EW had said something similar to what I was thinking.

But, I think he said it better than I would have.           :Gclap:

:iagree:

D.

[marie glen]

I was thinking in context he meant he followed the law aw his forefathers did.. and followed it faithfully/blamelessly.. but he was the greatest of sinners and a blasphemer because he persecuted those following "the way".. But after reading the thread, with all Paul wrote comparing "the law" (which doesn't work/change the heart) and "Grace", God's Spirit and Presence working within one (which does work and changes the heart and life) that this was very likely included in his thoughts and expression that he was chief among sinners.. having followed the law of God all his life, he was still able to persecute and agree to the deaths of innocent folks (even if he didn't consider them innocent at the time, being "zealous for the law"). It surely would be a hard thing to remember doing and being responsible for such actions, such as taking lives of others..

Very interesting thread! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:

[rosered]

I was thinking in context he meant he followed the law aw his forefathers did.. and followed it faithfully/blamelessly.. but he was the greatest of sinners and a blasphemer because he persecuted those following "the way".. But after reading the thread, with all Paul wrote comparing "the law" (which doesn't work/change the heart) and "Grace", God's Spirit and Presence working within one (which does work and changes the heart and life) that this was very likely included in his thoughts and expression that he was chief among sinners.. having followed the law of God all his life, he was still able to persecute and agree to the deaths of innocent folks (even if he didn't consider them innocent at the time, being "zealous for the law"). It surely would be a hard thing to remember doing and being responsible for such actions, such as taking lives of others..

Very interesting thread! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:

:dsunny: :HeartThrob:

I so agree ,   :iagree:  Killing and hating and devouring one another is not of God  , but the very carnal nature   of the beast ,  serpent  in the beginning   ,  lying   saying you wont die ...    :sigh:


Paul become all about the saving grace and being the   poured out vessel  in which  the HOLY SPIRIT FILLED , maturing  in the LOVE OF GOD ,  to save and be saved ..

Being  a double blessing  from the LORD !
Hebrews  6   A Call to Maturity
...9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—of things that accompany salvation.

10God not is unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so. 11We want each of you to show the same diligence to the very end, so that your hope may be fully assured....