Catholic Church pro UR???

[thinktank]

Just for the record, here is what pope John Paul II wrote about hell.

Here is a news story reporting on part of a sermon pope Benedict gave on hell.

So they belive that hell is eternal seperation from God and that the language used in the testament is not to be taken literally, but simply to convey that the soul will suffer without God. The problem I have with this idea of eternal sepearation from God, is this.

Where does their life come from?
For if God is the source of all life, then where does the power, the spark, the petrol, the generator, the sustenance come from if they are eternally seperated from God. One could argue, we are made in the image of God therefore have life within ourself, but this is an assumption, and Jesus said, as the father has life in himself so does the son, but he does not say that people have life, until they believe on him.

Another thing you need to bare in mind is that if we are created in the image of God and we become eternally seperated from,  doesn't that mean that we can create our own world, seperate from God?
For if we have creative potential and some kind of life force to keep us going then, why can't one create their own little world, maybe even generate love and create our own community of unbelivers in hell, seperate from God, but yet creating our own reality.

I suppose one can point to the demons and the devil, how do they continue to live without God, I guess my answer to that is they steal, thief, and destroy, pillaging the life force like leeches from people, maybe when the demons said to Jesus, art thou come to torment us before our time. Maybe that torment is starvation to death, for in time they will no longer be allowed to leach and harrass mankind. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Because not all Catholics believe exactly the same thing. Teachings also vary a little from place to place. So because the pope speaks to all Catholics he has to consider that not all Catholics believe exactly the same thing.

Do all UR proponents believe exactly the same things?  :JCThink: :OhNo:

You are right of course - being made up of humans, teachings, ideas and customs do vary.  However, "official" Catholic doctrine does not vary - they are the same for all of the church and if you want to know the official church teaching, the catechism of the Catholic church is where you will find it. 

I don't think the pope is concerned about tailoring his teaching to different beliefs though.

I see it this way. He beliefs 100% in wrath and 100% in love. He can write article solely about wrath or solely about love. This article is a mixture of it.
That way he pleases Catholics that believe in a 30-70 ratio and those believing in a 70-30 ratio. He didn't lie. He didn't change RCC teachings. He just mixed the teaching in a "pleases all" arcticle. :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

So they belive that hell is eternal seperation from God and that the language used in the testament is not to be taken literally, but simply to convey that the soul will suffer without God. The problem I have with this idea of eternal sepearation from God

IIRC John Paul II believed in what you just wrote.
I think Benedict has a more literal interpretation.

[thinktank]

Because not all Catholics believe exactly the same thing. Teachings also vary a little from place to place. So because the pope speaks to all Catholics he has to consider that not all Catholics believe exactly the same thing.

Do all UR proponents believe exactly the same things?  :JCThink: :OhNo:

You are right of course - being made up of humans, teachings, ideas and customs do vary.  However, "official" Catholic doctrine does not vary - they are the same for all of the church and if you want to know the official church teaching, the catechism of the Catholic church is where you will find it. 

I don't think the pope is concerned about tailoring his teaching to different beliefs though.

I see it this way. He beliefs 100% in wrath and 100% in love. He can write article solely about wrath or solely about love. This article is a mixture of it.
That way he pleases Catholics that believe in a 30-70 ratio and those believing in a 70-30 ratio. He didn't lie. He didn't change RCC teachings. He just mixed the teaching in a "pleases all" arcticle. :icon_jokercolor:

3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell'" (n. 1033).

John Paul 2
He says that's how the catechism defines the subject, it's close to what universalism belives, but that Universalism does not seperate belivers from God forever.

Your right about Benedict he simply said hell exists. I don't think he knows what it is or he avoids the subject.

[LS]

LS,
If I asked you to summarize the pope's speech in 1 or 2 sentences. What would you write.

Hi WhiteWings - I finally had time to re-read the links.  If I were to summarize John Paul II, I think I'd simply quote his own words:

"But man, called to respond to him freely,  can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him ... Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it."

Benedict is a little harder to summarize because I haven't found the entire speech, only blogs quoting different sections and offering their own commentaries.  It appears to me that he was simply re-stating church teaching; I don't know if it was responding to questions or why it was mentioned, and he doesn't go in-depth on his personal belief.  His words were simply that hell "really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more." 

I just wanted to get back to you on this because I told you I would. My opinion (and the popes') are really neither here nor there - but going back to the original post and the question of whether the Catholic Church is pro-UR or headed that direction, I think the answer is "no."

[WhiteWings]

http://tentmaker.org/articles/universal_salvation_roman_catholic.html