I have yet to meet (online or otherwise), a "younger" Universalist. Are they all "over the hill" like me (dialing in on the big 50). Does it take a minimum of "40 years" to understand the depth and magnitude of God's love and come out of religious Babylon? Maybe that is why God's testing period is always 40 days/years. Do you think these are perhaps the necessary steps we have to take before God will remove the blinders?
Silly question, I know. :blah: But I'm very curious. Does anyone know of any UR teens or twenty-somethings?
We are few and far between but we are out there hahaha! I just turned 29, I've been a believer in "UR" for about 4 or 5 years now. Misszoolander on here just turned 22. And as far as I can tell she lives more of a Christ like life than many of the "old folk" I know.
But in truth there is no age in the Spirit. :)
:HeartThrob:
My closest friends are in their 50's. I just laugh because it looks ridiculous to most people. My hubby even teases me hahaha.
I've noticed that. I'm 35 the next closest in age is 60 in our ecclesia. The only people I've met in person are older, but I know a few online who are under 40.
Quote from: lomarah on April 12, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
We are few and far between but we are out there hahaha! I just turned 29, I've been a believer in "UR" for about 4 or 5 years now. Misszoolander on here just turned 22. And as far as I can tell she lives more of a Christ like life than many of the "old folk" I know.
But in truth there is no age in the Spirit. :)
:HeartThrob:
Wow! God opened your eyes at 24. Amen! :dsunny: What led to your revelation at such a young age?
Quote from: lomarah on April 12, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
Misszoolander on here just turned 22. And as far as I can tell she lives more of a Christ like life than many of the "old folk" I know.
I have two young male friends
(23 and 27) that are atheists, who are so loving and genuine you would think they WERE Christ. One
(Josh), who is Pete's good friend, was brought up by rigid fundamentalist, turn-or-burn parents, and he
NEVER believed
AT ALL even in his
'forced' church going youth. Young people love my hubby for some reason and are drawn to him
(he doesn't understand why). Pete always says about Josh;
"If and when I become as 'Christ-like' as that atheist kid, it will be a time of great rejoicing in my heart."
That's great, sound like nice people. Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us. 2 things will happen, IMO; 1) they will one day be drawn by the Holy Spirit to the blood and cross of Christ, and they'll be spiritually reborn by being given the faith to believe on Jesus as their Savior. 2) all of us spiritually reborn folks who by grace and the free gift have already had our time of visitation by the Holy Spirit, our divine visitation as it were and , will someday finally grow up into the maturity of the new man, and act like the Christ that's within us through the new birth. I believe many of us will remain in varying levels of immaturity until mortality puts on immortality. :2c: By grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Amen.
Sorry, as far as your OP, I'm not sure - but it's a good question, and it does seem like most given the revelation of UR are "older" folks. Hmmm, that bears some investigation...should be some numbers/estimates out there somewhere. :thumbsup:
P.S. as far as misszoolander, I noticed her maturity right off - and then especially for a "youngster". It seems some are just given sort of "big jump" or "head start" and don't take so long to rot mature. :laugh: Reminds me of Timothy, and Paul telling him to not let others "despise" him for his youth. Told him to "declare and teach". :dsunny:
Jabcat you didn't say your age! :hiya: (You don't have to!) Such fun to read people's age! and hear a little about them.. I've been meaning to go around and visit everyone's profile but geesh, I just run out of time! I'll be 58 in a month or so.. and I feel kind of juvenile sometimes.. tho only in a good way! (not a delinquent, not yet anyway..)
I've only ever known one other UR person before coming to tentmaker.. his name was Paul (age 20's?) years ago.. we met in groups over web tv.. I remember him saying he liked Tentmaker! which for some reason I never forgot the website name (highly unusual!!)
35, 29, 50, 22, 60... i know a poster here who's 74.. i'm 58 but I think been believing UR since my 30's.. (never believed there was a 'hell')
:gsmile:
:thumbsup:
54 - old enough to know better - about a lot of things :punish:
Lol nice to see I get a mention guys :laughing7: :thumbsup:
I believe I could be one of the youngest on this forum? Not sure. I have to say I came into this forum spiritually immature, the more I read, discuss and talk about God with the good people here the more I'm grow. :dsunny:
We had a 17 or 18 year old. One of our ex-members who was about 60 and been "in UR" and on the boards for years started singing the praises of recreationally smoking marijuana, how good it was, and that he'd "written spiritual songs" while under the influence. The teenager got on board with that, thought it was pretty cool. When that thread and those beliefs got challenged and the thread finally shut down, soon after the teenager left. :bsad:
Just ONE of several/many reasons for the tighter moderation that some don't understand, but through history and experience, have become necessary - don't need harm to come to "the little ones" if possible - in any way.
Really??!
Wow. Obviously the fruits of that discussion were bad. I've heard many people try and justify smoking pot by saying that Jesus used cannabis oil to anoint people.
Crazy :wacko2:
Yeah, well, our carnal mind can try to justify just about anything and everything, can't it? To my shame, I know. Off topic, and very briefly; I believe substances that "take over" the body/mind in any way, should be used STRICTLY medicinally, in good conscience, and as placed before the Lord for approval or restriction. I think of the verse in the OT that says "strong drink for the dying (pain)".
My mother in law was dying of extremely painful cancer, and we all felt very good that as a strong Christian lady, it was very compassionate and called for to give her whatever it took to ease her discomfort. Very specific circumstance. :2c:
I looked for some age demographics re: UR, really found nothing.
Here's what I believe, and it may be wrong. I believe most who see UR are middle-age to older.
On the other hand, I believe many (most?) young people coming up don't really believe in eternal hell. However - I'm afraid they also don't really believe Jesus will save all - IMO, it's just more of an unbelief in general. However - maybe God will use this as part of His plan to teach us all? Maybe they won't have so much to "unlearn". :dunno2:
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2013, 12:13:39 AM
We had a 17 or 18 year old. One of our ex-members who was about 60 and been "in UR" and on the boards for years started singing the praises of recreationally smoking marijuana, how good it was, and that he'd "written spiritual songs" while under the influence. The teenager got on board with that, thought it was pretty cool. When that thread and those beliefs got challenged and the thread finally shut down, soon after the teenager left. :bsad:
Just ONE of several/many reasons for the tighter moderation that some don't understand, but through history and experience, have become necessary - don't need harm to come to "the little ones" if possible - in any way.
Wow!!! Jab, do I know this person who was 60? Seems like I kind of remember this discussion but not the people.
(2Tim. 1:7) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, AND OF A SOUND MIND. Peter also talks about STIRING UP OUR PURE MINDS.
When you are drunk, or on drugs, how can you have a sound mind or a pure mind? You don't even use your mind, at least the right way.
All I got to say is, you all are really OLD. :rolllol: :laughhand: :bowing:
Just kidding. Love you all though. :HeartThrob: I always figured being older makes one wiser and smarter.
Not going to tell my age but I am glad to know I am not the oldest on here. I guess you could say I am among the average age group on here.
CHB
I'm 39 and have believed UR for several years now.
Quote from: BirdSong on April 12, 2013, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: lomarah on April 12, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
We are few and far between but we are out there hahaha! I just turned 29, I've been a believer in "UR" for about 4 or 5 years now. Misszoolander on here just turned 22. And as far as I can tell she lives more of a Christ like life than many of the "old folk" I know.
But in truth there is no age in the Spirit. :)
:HeartThrob:
Wow! God opened your eyes at 24. Amen! :dsunny: What led to your revelation at such a young age?
I just could not wrap my mind around an eternal hell where people were abandoned forever. I knew my Father, I had met Him and it did not add up. After my daughter was born I knew there was no way I would ever abandon her, no matter what kinds of awful sins she might commit in her life. I prayed and asked God to show me if hell was real and if it was to show me how it was good because I just couldn't see it. He showed me! It started off with a link on the side of my email. It was a question, it asked "Is hell real?" I clicked on it and was completely blown away by what I found. A few days later I went to the library and picked up three books. None of them had any hint of teaching universal salvation on the covers but when I got them home and read them they all either hinted at or openly taught UR. I was like ok God I get it!! Lol. I did a lot of research and found tentmaker and the rest is history as they say. :)
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2013, 12:21:34 AM
Yeah, well, our carnal mind can try to justify just about anything and everything, can't it? To my shame, I know. Off topic, and very briefly; I believe substances that "take over" the body/mind in any way, should be used STRICTLY medicinally, in good conscience, and as placed before the Lord for approval or restriction. I think of the verse in the OT that says "strong drink for the dying (pain)".
My mother in law was dying of extremely painful cancer, and we all felt very good that as a strong Christian lady, it was very compassionate and called for to give her whatever it took to ease her discomfort. Very specific circumstance. :2c:
Yeah, other than justifiable circumstances
(as you mentioned), I think that it is very important to not have any external
'artificial' influence on the mind. Not because of judgmental reasons, but because if you are under the influence, you can't tell if the Holy Spirit is leading you, or if it is your own subconscious mind interfering with your consciousness and spiritual reality. But young people
(and old) have to discover this for themselves AFTER God calls them
(John 6:44). Unless God is involved, nothing you can say OR DO will change someone's mind if their mind is made up.
:thumbsup: Lamorah, what an awesome story :))
...All the stories! ...and Misszoolander so young! Some others too!
Jabcat, I think your right some/many nonbelievers don't have as much to relearn!!
I'm 63, became a Christian at about 27, got into UR in my mid-40's. I don't feel old yet, except that I tire more easily than when young.
Awesome thread :banana:
I just turned 50 and only came into UR about a year ago. I am finally experiencing true freedom from the lies of the world. I seek to become a Berean searching all of the scriptures all of the time, digging ever deeper into the Word. Proving the gospel of universal restoration daily.
I'll be celebrating 75 years of believing God's Glorious Plan to bring ALL to be with Him for all eternity. I'll be 79 on April 22 -- so it seems I am the oldest member of this forum and the youngest (4 1/2 years old) in terms of when God revealed Himself as a God of love.
when I read the title of this thread..the account of the woman caught in the act of adultery come to mind
..where He said...'whoever of you is without sin,cast the first stone" and they all..starting with the oldest
...one by one..left off...the judging of the woman...til finally no-one was left of her accusers
makes me thing of babylon/christendom..our exodus from her...the beast that turns on her.....
and the Christ-mind attitude we should possess to the people in her,still..
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 13, 2013, 07:31:32 AM
I'm 63, became a Christian at about 27, got into UR in my mid-40's. I don't feel old yet, except that I tire more easily than when young.
Quote from: Anna274
I'll be celebrating 75 years of believing God's Glorious Plan to bring ALL to be with Him for all eternity. I'll be 79 on April 22 -- so it seems I am the oldest member of this forum and the youngest (4 1/2 years old) in terms of when God revealed Himself as a God of love.
12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
13 Those that be planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish in the courts of our God.
14 They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing;
15 To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.
--Psalm 92
Quote from: lomarah on April 13, 2013, 05:23:07 AM
Quote from: BirdSong on April 12, 2013, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: lomarah on April 12, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
We are few and far between but we are out there hahaha! I just turned 29, I've been a believer in "UR" for about 4 or 5 years now. Misszoolander on here just turned 22. And as far as I can tell she lives more of a Christ like life than many of the "old folk" I know.
But in truth there is no age in the Spirit. :)
:HeartThrob:
Wow! God opened your eyes at 24. Amen! :dsunny: What led to your revelation at such a young age?
I just could not wrap my mind around an eternal hell where people were abandoned forever. I knew my Father, I had met Him and it did not add up. After my daughter was born I knew there was no way I would ever abandon her, no matter what kinds of awful sins she might commit in her life. I prayed and asked God to show me if hell was real and if it was to show me how it was good because I just couldn't see it. He showed me! It started off with a link on the side of my email. It was a question, it asked "Is hell real?" I clicked on it and was completely blown away by what I found. A few days later I went to the library and picked up three books. None of them had any hint of teaching universal salvation on the covers but when I got them home and read them they all either hinted at or openly taught UR. I was like ok God I get it!! Lol. I did a lot of research and found tentmaker and the rest is history as they say. :)
Great testimony L! Praise God! I am still amazed how young you were. I had a similar experience, but not until 8 or so years ago when I was much older. I avoided thinking about hell altogether, because I thought something was wrong with the way humans understood God's judgment, because deep down I knew God's justice was perfect and fair, even when my father, an agnostic, died when I was 12. My Mom was the religious (Southern Baptist) side of the family, even though my parents had a wonderful relationship. Pete was an atheist up until he was 24. He's an astrophysicist, and back in college his god was science, until God got his attention dramatically when he was studying for a physics exam one night. Has he told you yet? Incredible testimony.
He's an astrophysicist, and back in college his god was science, until God got his attention dramatically when he was studying for a physics exam one night. Has he told you yet?
No he has not told me yet..........but I am waiting.
Quote from: Molly on April 13, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 13, 2013, 07:31:32 AM
I'm 63, became a Christian at about 27, got into UR in my mid-40's. I don't feel old yet, except that I tire more easily than when young.
Quote from: Anna274
I'll be celebrating 75 years of believing God's Glorious Plan to bring ALL to be with Him for all eternity. I'll be 79 on April 22 -- so it seems I am the oldest member of this forum and the youngest (4 1/2 years old) in terms of when God revealed Himself as a God of love.
12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
13 Those that be planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish in the courts of our God.
14 They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing;
15 To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.
--Psalm 92
I am a hymnaholic and it's all your fault, Molly... well rather than blame you, I often ask God to BLESS you abundantly-- you mentioned in a much earlier post (months ago when I first started posting old hymns) that hymns were used to teach Scriptural truths to the people... and for me, hymns are such a delightful way to continue to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...
Many, many thanks Molly for the many scripture references you share. Yes, I have a hymn that speaks to the above Scripture
GOD OF MY CHILDHOOD AND MY YOUTH Watts, 1719
God of my childhood and my youth,
The guide of all my days,
I wish to declare Thy heavenly truth,
And tell of all Thy wondrous ways.
Wilt Thou forsake my hoary hairs,
And leave my fainting heart?
Who shall sustain my sinking years,
If God my strength depart?
Let me Thy power and truth proclaim
To the surviving age;
And leave a savor of Thy name
When I shall quit the stage.
The land of silence and of death
Attends my next remove;
O may these poor remains of breath
Teach the wide world Thy love!
Thy righteousness is deep and high,
Unsearchable Thy deeds;
Thy glory spreads beyond the sky,
And all my praise exceeds.
Oft have I heard the threatenings roar,
And oft endured the grief;
And when Thy hand has pressed me sore,
THY GRACE WAS MY RELIEF.
By long experience I have known
Thy sovereign power to save;
At Thy command I venture down
Securely to the grace.
When I lie buried deep in dust,
My flesh shall be Thy care;
These withering limbs with Thee I trust,
To raise them strong and fair.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on April 13, 2013, 08:23:35 PM
He's an astrophysicist, and back in college his god was science, until God got his attention dramatically when he was studying for a physics exam one night. Has he told you yet?
No he has not told me yet..........but I am waiting.
Well, I'll ask him. He's a bit disillusioned with communication through writing these days, unless it is strictly for information - "data" as he says. He likes
person to person because he believes writing paints a very inaccurate portrait of someone's "true" personality and "spirit", but I'll ask him. :Peace2:
I would love to hear his testimony as well!!
QuoteOne (Josh), who is Pete's good friend, was brought up by rigid fundamentalist, turn-or-burn parents, and he NEVER believed AT ALL even in his 'forced' church going youth.
I'm over 60. I was lucky like Pete to have never feared God or Hell. My Mom is kind of fundamentalist. Dad was just an obedient Catholic.
I always liked science and after my first year in college I became an atheist for a year, until I realized I didn't really know for certain any of the things science claimed, but came to see that consciousness is what is really known and the physical world must exist within it, rather than consciousness existing within the physical world. Then I was able to see that my limited consciousness must be part of a greater consciousness and that ultimately there must be infinite consciousness, as well as infinite power, which is God. It was only in more recent years, though, that I noticed that Caring, or Love, is really what gives consciousness and power any meaning. I believe that's what Jesus' message is, Caring for all, which he taught by his example of self-sacrifice.
Wow Lloyd that's awesome. :HeartThrob:
Those who understand the salvation of all as truth are more mature than those who consider it error and divisive; but, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth Who, by quickening our awareness with newness of life, restores our youth.
Quote from: Lloyd on April 15, 2013, 03:44:50 AM
It was only in more recent years, though, that I noticed that Caring, or Love, is really what gives consciousness and power any meaning. I believe that's what Jesus' message is, Caring for all, which he taught by his example of self-sacrifice.
I agree. As simple and cliche as it may sound, when I had..... later in life... the epiphany that God
IS LOVE, that is when I finally
"got it." Some may say,
"Of course God is love, that is the most obvious truth there is." Well, it wasn't to me. Sure, I read, and even taught others for decades, that God is love, but I never
"REALLY" thought deeply about it.
I never truly contemplated that
God is love with the mind of the Spirit. In the past, I used to see
'love' as simply being one of God's
attributes - one of His
characteristics, rather than being
God Himself. God is Spirit, and that Spirit is what human beings refer to as
"LOVE."I realized that when humans experience love, they are experiencing God, whether they are aware of it or not, or whether they are believers or not. People are raised and taught from a very young age to understand love as being
an emotion that we all experience as humans
(one of many human emotions). What we are not taught is that
LOVE IS GOD. That
so-called emotion.... that
feeling of
love we experience
IS GOD. Love is not just
WHAT God
"does," Love is
WHO God
IS.
I used to think love was simply what God
DOES....not Who God
IS. I saw love as a
'verb,' not a
'Proper Noun.' This revelation was the major turning point in my whole life.
Quote from: jabcat on April 12, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
That's great, sound like nice people. Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us.
A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very
very hard for me. Why do you think that is?
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 15, 2013, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 12, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
That's great, sound like nice people. Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us.
A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?
God can do anything that He sees fit to do that is why. Sorry but it is just that simple God is sovereign and does what ever He pleases of whatever pleases Him.
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 15, 2013, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 12, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
That's great, sound like nice people. Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us.
A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?
I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.
Quote from: lomarah on April 15, 2013, 04:25:05 PM
I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.
..
amen!! plus they don't worry about what the other person does or doesn't do.. Though I do find you have to either be non political or of a certain political party, or most folks, these days, will dismiss you as totally irrelevant. That is to say, I'm not feelin' the love from nonChristians either. I'm not saying we should conform, our opinions, heaven forbid, but am - just sayin' - as the expression goes. :gsmile: - "When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen." -- I totally agree!! :mthumbsup: :mthumbsup:
Quote from: BirdSong on April 15, 2013, 10:58:56 AM
Quote from: Lloyd on April 15, 2013, 03:44:50 AM
It was only in more recent years, though, that I noticed that Caring, or Love, is really what gives consciousness and power any meaning. I believe that's what Jesus' message is, Caring for all, which he taught by his example of self-sacrifice.
I realized that when humans experience love, they are experiencing God, whether they are aware of it or not, or whether they are believers or not. People are raised and taught from a very young age to understand love as being an emotion that we all experience as humans (one of many human emotions). What we are not taught is that LOVE IS GOD. That so-called emotion.... that feeling of love we experience IS GOD. Love is not just WHAT God "does," Love is WHO God IS.
I used to think love was simply what God DOES....not Who God IS. I saw love as a 'verb,' not a 'Proper Noun.' This revelation was the major turning point in my whole life.
Amen! Very well said!! :mthumbsup: :gsmile:
Quote from: lomarah on April 15, 2013, 04:25:05 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 15, 2013, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 12, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
That's great, sound like nice people. Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us.
A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?
I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.
Amen Lo! That's the key in a nutshell. Most Christians don't realize that God doesn't care one iota about what humans
"intellectually accept" about Him. If He did, He would have given us far more detailed, scientific information about Himself, and provided us with a far greater intellectual capacity - as opposed to our savage, animalistic, primitive, reptilian brains. But
intellectual acceptance and knowledge regarding
'this doctrine' or
'that doctrine' is irrelevant in God's eyes - and this misunderstanding has misled Christians for 1900+ years, and is responsible for the
'fear' gospels of eternal torment and annihilation. Most people think that claiming to believe
"IN" God, or claiming to believe some doctrine
"about" God is what saves them. They do not realize that intellectual knowledge
"about" God has nothing to do
"loving each other, as He loved us" (Jesus' only command - John 15:12,17 ) - and
"trusting" the
'Spirit of Truth' within us, and what He writes
"in our minds and on our hearts" (Hebrews 8:10-11).
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on April 15, 2013, 03:13:02 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 15, 2013, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 12, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
That's great, sound like nice people. Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us.
A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?
God can do anything that He sees fit to do that is why. Sorry but it is just that simple God is sovereign and does what ever He pleases of whatever pleases Him.
Blessings. Agreed. IMO, we can go too far either way i.e., "this is what it says" period, or, oh it's all about love. There's a view that attempts to take in the whole counsel. I'm lousy at it, but it's in there somewhere :). I.e., what's the truth -
including love, but not excluding other needful things. The Holy Spirit sure breathed a lot of things for us to know, learn, teach, share, in the scriptures. There's more there than love, and there's more there than Law.
Actually, the scriptures do teach having a proper knowledge of God/Christ, how to really know Him. I don't believe it's just through intellect, nor just through emotion. Jesus is the Savior, no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved. (We
can only come to Him unless the Spirit draw us - so yes, it's in God's hands.)
As indicated in the rest of the post from which the part was quoted, I'm not strictly talking about God
manifesting Himself. He used Pharaoh. He used a donkey. He can use the rocks and stones to cry out and praise Him. I don't believe there's any indication Pharaoh or the donkey or stones were spiritually reborn. :) I was talking more about the spiritual new birth, i.e., what it takes to be "saved"/born again/spiritually reborn.
"But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?" Romans 10:14.
re: There's a view that attempts to take in the whole counsel... it's in there somewhere. Agreed.
and re: Spirit of truth ...writes it in our minds and in our hearts... Agreed,
but I because I've belonged to several charismatic prayer groups years ago and often times I asked "What if what you say the Holy Spirit wrote in your mind and heart conflicts with what I say He has written in my mind and heart?
I became more and more convinced that the Holy Spirit uses the written word to write in my mind and in my heart (memory bank)...
speaking of lousy :)... I've learned that man cannot delouse man... only the Holy Spirit can and I continue to believe that He uses the written word--- physical written word to reveal spiritual truths...
Quote from: anna274 on April 15, 2013, 08:44:00 PM
but I because I've belonged to several charismatic prayer groups years ago and often times I asked "What if what you say the Holy Spirit wrote in your mind and heart conflicts with what I say He has written in my mind and heart?
Amen. There are a zillion views. God speaks to us. We also have our own filters, carnal minds at work that interfere, personalities with our own quirks - and active imaginations. Also, the deceiver is at work, whispering in our ear. So then your next point, IMO, right on! :)
Quote from: anna274 on April 15, 2013, 08:44:00 PM
I became more and more convinced that the Holy Spirit uses the written word to write in my mind and in my heart (memory bank)...
speaking of lousy :)... I've learned that man cannot delouse man... only the Holy Spirit can and I continue to believe that He uses the written word--- physical written word to reveal spiritual truths...
Amen. IMO, satan would like nothing better than the church toss the scriptures for pop psychology ("I'm OK, You're OK"), feelings/intuition ("all we need is love/Imagine"), or, for the church to ONLY go by what is written and dismiss the Spirit ("having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof"). We've done the latter for many years, God will help us to not all drift into the former. :2c:
little children may not understand much..but they know what love is..they expierence this love through
parents[some poor children never know love in this world] So, it is the foundation..that understanding
is built on.. Wisdom from Above...and the Jerualem Above..begets children of Love nd Understanding.
the very reason Jesus spoke of the phirisees nd sadducees making someone a proselyte and them
becoming twice the child of hell..is on the principle that pharisee's did not love[foundation] and did not
understand[forgive Faather they know Not!]Blind teachers.
my people perish through lack of knowledge. Knowing the one true God..and being taught of Him..protects
what parent..who dearly loves and cherishes their child..does not warn,educate the child of the
dangers in this world?Many a loving child has approached a vicious dog on a chain with arms open to
to embrace the creature in love..to be savagely mauled or killed.Taking candy from strangers is a real
danger. What parent hasn't instructed the child not to bop the sister or brother on their head,and to share?
The commands have always been to protect life and foster well-being of the child..not to destroy the child.
to foment a loving kind orderly peaceful home.
Love never fails..but there re wicked about that have no love of God in them, that spitefully use and
abuse...and a loving Father will educate His children with a wisdom from above.
:2thumbs: post sheila. one thumb for love, the other for speaking the truth. :laughing7: IMO, there's the balance, and the motive (out of love, to help).
(God's been dealing with me like this - I can share what I understand as the truth - even very clear, specific scrips. But I can either (carnally) slam them at someone in an attempt to control, be "right", and "win", or I can (with His help) share them gently, in love, hoping to reconcile/assist. As Lomarah shared from Card the other day - "the motive of the heart". :2c:) Create in me a clean heart.
It's a sticky wicket alright! One says these verses mean this, and another says, these verses mean that.
(Malachi 3:16) "Then those who revered the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord took note and listened, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who revered the Lord and thought on his name."
I'm thinking a key is to be able to disagree on these secondary matters and topics, and able to talk and discuss them peacefully even joyfully. I'm pretty sure when all is said and done, we'll find each one of us was 'right' about some things and wrong about some things.
Perhaps one reason the denominations are in decline is because they cannot accept any new ideas. After all if a group only accepts their own particular brand and slant on all things, won't that group become stale and stagnant? Well, maybe not if they have the free flowing stream of the Holy Spirit, that is! But it's the same Spirit which makes the bond of peace between those passionate about speaking to one another about the Lord and His Word.. :2c:
p.s ..all, i'm sure like to communicate their ideas.. perhaps if all in the body of Jesus could think of it as sharing ideas rather than debating ideas.. I think sometimes, even, ideas which seem unblendable, may indeed simply be different pieces of the puzzle/question.. :2c: :gsmile:
When you move from the outside of a circle to its core, the closer you get to center the more of the entire sphere becomes visible and integrated as one.
Jesus the Messiah is our core.
Christ in you the hope of glory.
The more our understanding is anchored in the very KNOWING OF JESUS< THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD> and being conformed/transformed into His likeness.....manifesting His nature and love and kindness and truth, the MORE OF THE SEEMINGLY UNNCONNECTED POINTS ON THE EDGE OF THE SPHERE COME TOGETHER INTO THE MIND OF CHRIST> which is rooted and grounded in love. From any point on the skin of the sphere, there is a line that will lead one to the center.
The law(surface of the sphere) is a tutor to lead us to Christ. The LETTER keeps killing us till we come to kno and be led by the Spirit.
Christ and Him crucified is the key to the flowing through the matrix/mystery.
I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified.
We donot come into the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the son of God, no longer tossed to and from by every wind of doctrine by swallowing the whole sphere like a snake opening its jaws to swallow a rabbit.
We grow into the mind of Christ by moving to the core, finding there a cross, embracing it, and then following the voice that speaks from within.
It is written, Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that COMES(not came) from the mouth of God.
Today, if you hear His voice.....harden not your heart
Amen,EW..the city of light with the 12 foundation stone jewels of light..can be likened to a
kaleidescope as the coloured lights are pulle d to center,eh? the city does not need the sun or the
moon to shine on it,for the glory of God gives it light and the Lamb is it's light.[source/core]
Oh Wheelwork!!! wheels within wheels!!! a rainbow resembling an emerald,encircled the throne
also before the throne there waswhat looked like a sea of glass..clear as crystal[no longer seeing
through a glass darkly]
Quote from: marie glen on April 15, 2013, 09:39:51 PM
p.s ..all, i'm sure like to communicate their ideas.. perhaps if all in the body of Jesus could think of it as sharing ideas rather than debating ideas.. I think sometimes, even, ideas which seem unblendable, may indeed simply be different pieces of the puzzle/question.. :2c: :gsmile:
Thank you Marie... sometimes, I am so focused on what I am learning, enjoying, pondering that I miss some very encouraging, comforting posts... today, the BIG issue for me was that God who sometimes seems quite fierce in the Old Testament is actually a Father who has always LOVED the world... (John 3:16) and I plan to find all the verses in the OT that speak to that everlasting love.
But I did read most of the posts... and I agree with you, at least in my case... many things that the body shares on this forum helps me connect some more dots... blessings on all
Quote from: sheila
The commands have always been to protect life and foster well-being of the child..not to destroy the child.
to foment a loving kind orderly peaceful home.
Love never fails..but there re wicked about that have no love of God in them, that spitefully use and
abuse...and a loving Father will educate His children with a wisdom from above.
Awesome. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on April 15, 2013, 09:33:43 PM
Perhaps one reason the denominations are in decline is because they cannot accept any new ideas. After all if a group only accepts their own particular brand and slant on all things, won't that group become stale and stagnant? Well, maybe not if they have the free flowing stream of the Holy Spirit, that is! But it's the same Spirit which makes the bond of peace between those passionate about speaking to one another about the Lord and His Word.. :2c:
"...and
to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ..." (Ep 3
9, KJV) The newer versions tend to have, "The fellowship of the dispensation," based on other underlying texts. "The administration of the secret" is the Concordant Literal rendering. But I think "the fellowship of the mystery" says a lot. When everything to be believed is already all marked out and what we do is well established territory of men's possession, to correct anything, open up fallow ground or uncharted territories we must have authorization from men who are over other men, with other men who in turn are over them. It's mostly dead and functions in a lecture structure. On the other hand, when we first know the Lord we gather together excited about what we've just found of the Spirit, or what new thing we're going to find as we share. Our FELLOWSHIP (koinea) is of the mystery!
Quote from: lomarah on April 15, 2013, 04:25:05 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 15, 2013, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 12, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
That's great, sound like nice people. Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us.
A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?
I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.
I used to view anything which looked like good fruit but didn't have the big "J" stamped on it as false, counterfeit, self -glorifying etc etc. I even persecuted by own sweet mom for her inclusiveness and for saying things like "I am at church right now. Look down my street...now look up my street. Those people are the body of Christ, all of them. ". :eek: Most of us know that if you are involved at all with any sort of traditional Christianity - that just doesn't fly. Basically on the religious side of Christianity loving God means adhering to certain doctrinal beliefs and saying certain words in the correct order. Of course - we don't SEE it that way at the time. The words represent something to us and we look for those same words to confirm for us that someone else is actually legitimately "okay with God".
All that said - there are a lot of really screwed up people out there and belief systems can be helpful for many. But there are a lot of people who believe all the right Christian stuff and are STILL screwed up! So - to the OP: exclusivity is a big part of the Christian world view. Only "few" be saved after all and if you don't gain something totally unique then why go through the "hardship" of living righteously and denying ourselves etc. Young people especially have a rough time in this day and age and without the super high stakes of eternal salvation of damnation at stake - what sense does it make to not go with the flow? Why not if everyone will be okay in the end?
Of course - those of us who know the joy of real fellowship with God know that it is all the motivation necessary but to the average believer it doesn't make sense. In fact you wouldn't BELIEVE how many Christians have told me that if I was right about all ultimately being saved they would go out and start having immoral fun right now and cheat/steal etc if they thought they could get away with it. Sad - because it shows they do not value virtue on it's own merit - just to give their ego a message that they are okay with God.
So ESPECIALLY for an atheist to selflessly serve others and do no harm is as real as it gets in my opinion as they are not doing it to rack up points for the afterlife or to try and be saved from something bad happening to them. Fruit (AKA the way you actually treat people) is very very underrated in Christianity and proper belief very very overrated (in my opinion). I know a famous preacher who is heralded the world over for his mesmerizing bible speak but personally knowing his personal life (not gossip) I wouldn't give you 2 cents for his character. No - good character can't save you, but manifesting love to one another is the only true barometer there is of one's spiritual understanding.
At this point I don't have much to add but I would like to point out that this is the first thread I have personally been involved in and it stayed on point and everyone has added something to it instead of taking something from it. It just confirms to me that we are together in this and we are going there together. We are part of something really big happening right now in the world. I got a good feeling!! :banana:
I'm at the half-century mark!
I have been enlightened to UR for a year, since I was at 49. (7x7 for those of you who believe numbers have significance (I believe they do sometimes.)) :dsunny:
Anyway, as far as the younger generation goes, many of them from my point-of-view seem to be gravitating towards agnosticism and atheism.
This could be in large part a result of the ET "hellfire & brimstone," "turn-or-burn" gospel of fear. :eek:
I believe our world is getting ready for UR more every day! It's so exciting!! :bgdance:
Wonderful Firstborn 888!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 16, 2013, 05:26:11 PM
I'm at the half-century mark!
I have been enlightened to UR for a year, since I was at 49. (7x7 for those of you who believe numbers have significance (I believe they do sometimes.)) :dsunny:
Anyway, as far as the younger generation goes, many of them from my point-of-view seem to be gravitating towards agnosticism and atheism.
This could be in large part a result of the ET "hellfire & brimstone," "turn-or-burn" gospel of fear. :eek:
I believe our world is getting ready for UR more every day! It's so exciting!! :bgdance:
Happy Birthday J! :icon_flower: :angelharp:
I also agree with what you say here. The primitive absurdity of the ET doctrine
(and other mainstream doctrines) is definitely a big part of it. And as my hubby says,
"If Christians don't start addressing the facts of the geological and paleontological sciences soon, the entire institutionalized system will go by the way of the baby boomers, and soon expire."
I must say that I agree with him. Most young people that are adequately educated in science want little to do with mainstream Christianity because, let's face it, their YEC claims are beyond ludicrous. Young people are sharp these days, and they don't easily fall for unscientific myths. Fortunately, God calls many of the younger people either
"out of" the institutionalized system, or into His truth - bypassing the religious system altogether.
Not all who leave the church fall into atheism, even though the atheist community would like us to
'think' that is the case. They get a few ex-church members to speak for them so they can paint a picture that leads the public to believe that is what happens to
ALL who leave the church. But it is only wishful thinking on their part.
I personally believe God's Spirit is currently being
"poured out" significantly at this time, and I predict we will see many more younger people embracing
God's love for ALL in the near future. :declare:
I wish we could just hit reply instead of quote to speak more directly to someone on the same thread. Anyway I agree with so much of what is being said here. :banana:
Quote from: BirdSong on April 16, 2013, 08:15:02 PM
...as my hubby says, "If Christians don't start addressing the facts of the geological and paleontological sciences soon, the entire institutionalized system will go by the way of the baby boomers, and soon expire."
I must say that I agree with him. Most young people that are adequately educated in science want little to do with mainstream Christianity because, let's face it, their YEC claims are beyond ludicrous. Young people are sharp these days, and they don't easily fall for unscientific myths. Fortunately, God calls many of the younger people either "out of" the institutionalized system, or into His truth - bypassing the religious system altogether.
You hit the nail right on the head! :thumbsup:
I agree mps, there's been a lot of good stuff said here IMO. I also believe we need to be aware that some things can have just enough truth in them, that if someone isn't truly grounded in sound doctrine, they might be fooled and blown around by "every wind". IMO, all the scripture is true – but a scripture pulled out here or there, and a whole new belief system built upon it, can sometimes be missing other important things that should be factored in.
Jesus gave the commandment of love. But He also said other things. Paul said all things should be done "in love".
I believe there are counterfeits. A cubic zirconium can look just like a diamond to the naked or untrained eye. Would you want to buy it from me at the cost of a diamond just because it looks like what you think a diamond should look like? Test all things. If anyone says Christ hasn't come in the flesh they are in the body anti-Christ and not of God. I John 4:3. I believe the scriptures teach God has reconciled Himself to man, but not all men are as yet reconciled to God. Paul preached "be you reconciled to God!".
God said for lack of knowledge my people perish. He also said .. I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. I'm afraid much of our zeal sometimes is based on imagination, what we've evolved to believe – sometimes rightly, sometimes drifting away from sound doctrine IMO (I've certainly done some of it). Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits". I believe there's a larger context. For instance, it also says "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart". Which is it? It's both. So where's the balance, based on the whole context ? I know this flies in the face of somes' beliefs, but I must say it. The scriptures do say that to know Him, one must "hear of Him, be given the faith to believe on Him. And how can they believe unless someone tells them?" I'm not saying there's an exact man-made formula. I believe God gives much "leeway" in terms of what we know/understand – but on the other hand, I don't believe it happens by osmosis, or just because someone appears to be a really nice person, that means they're of God. Where's the balance here, the whole counsel? I honestly don't have the perfect answer, other than "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".
Pray that we all look to be solidly grounded, seek to build each other up "in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus". Blessings.
Jabcat you are saying to use discernment when reading material here correct? I normally do anyway but especially in forums and the like. I agree everyone needs discernment.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup: if the heart is where the Lords kingdom is set up and you become His temple and dwells with us we can count on His faithfulness and will not fail
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
So many are growing in grace with a personal relationship with the Lord though direct prayer I know of a few very young in their 20's who have a relationship with the Lord and have bypassed Babylon [the spiritual prison house ] Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:4 Then I heard another voice calling from heaven, "Come away from her, my people. Do not take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her.
:HeartThrob:
rosie, some time i'd like to have a discussion about what those plagues might be - exactly what they might look like. you know, what will people actually suffer? let's say because someone maybe stayed totally involved in the baptist or methodist denomination, what will they miss and have the consequence of?
i felt God call me out of mainstream, and i've often thought of that verse. but then i wonder what it's REALLY talking about, where the rubber hits the road..probably another thread...blessings
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 01:13:21 AM
rosie, some time i'd like to have a discussion about what those plagues might be - exactly what they might look like. you know, what will people actually suffer? let's say because someone maybe stayed totally involved in the baptist or methodist denomination, what will they miss and have the consequence of?
i felt God call me out of mainstream, and i've often thought of that verse. but then i wonder what it's REALLY talking about, where the rubber hits the road..probably another thread...blessings
God bless your heart Bro J ,
Coming out of "Her " to me is having faith in God completly [perfectly ]
without faith its impossible to please God
for me bro , its always been the mainstream teaches us to become "holy before men
not God " :( there is a self righteouness of perfecting the flesh , looking good to others
and not having the "right intent " when doing those alms [showing mercy and pity charity]
these things are supposed to be done in private and know one knows , so many "churches " show the very works and those charities and org like boy scouts etc and have you join in with it , cancer groups etc , if you really sit down and read what Jesus says about it , its scary just how much charity is done openly without God concidered even in them :(
dont let your left hand know what your right hand is doing
Matt 6 is a great start
Mat 6:1 "Watch out! Don't do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven.
PS Bro J ,
I would love a good study on those plagues :thumbsup:
Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who held the seven bowls containing the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come with me! I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
we can see that revealed in Rev 15 and 16 :thumbsup:
interesting thoughts, thank you. yeah, i'm curious. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 01:29:26 AM
interesting thoughts, thank you. yeah, i'm curious. :Chinscratch:
ok , I started a thread on the 7 last plagues Jab , something I never do is start threads :dunno2:
:thumbsup:
checkin out that new thread right now
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 12:32:35 AM
I agree mps, there's been a lot of good stuff said here IMO. I also believe we need to be aware that some things can have just enough truth in them, that if someone isn't truly grounded in sound doctrine, they might be fooled and blown around by "every wind". IMO, all the scripture is true – but a scripture pulled out here or there, and a whole new belief system built upon it, can sometimes be missing other important things that should be factored in.
Jesus gave the commandment of love. But He also said other things. Paul said all things should be done "in love".
I believe there are counterfeits. A cubic zirconium can look just like a diamond to the naked or untrained eye. Would you want to buy it from me at the cost of a diamond just because it looks like what you think a diamond should look like? Test all things. If anyone says Christ hasn't come in the flesh they are in the body anti-Christ and not of God. I John 4:3. I believe the scriptures teach God has reconciled Himself to man, but not all men are as yet reconciled to God. Paul preached "be you reconciled to God!".
God said for lack of knowledge my people perish. He also said .. I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. I'm afraid much of our zeal sometimes is based on imagination, what we've evolved to believe – sometimes rightly, sometimes drifting away from sound doctrine IMO (I've certainly done some of it). Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits". I believe there's a larger context. For instance, it also says "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart". Which is it? It's both. So where's the balance, based on the whole context ? I know this flies in the face of somes' beliefs, but I must say it. The scriptures do say that to know Him, one must "hear of Him, be given the faith to believe on Him. And how can they believe unless someone tells them?" I'm not saying there's an exact man-made formula. I believe God gives much "leeway" in terms of what we know/understand – but on the other hand, I don't believe it happens by osmosis, or just because someone appears to be a really nice person, that means they're of God. Where's the balance here, the whole counsel? I honestly don't have the perfect answer, other than "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".
Pray that we all look to be solidly grounded, seek to build each other up "in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus". Blessings.
I have to disagree with you here my friend.
God is Love. One can worry about the things
"in-between" - but if one is acting
"in love" all of those
'other things in-between' are covered
"by default." Nit picking about
"doctrines" - and whether certain doctrines are
"right" or
"wrong" have been stumbling blocks, and they have divided Christians for almost 2,000 years. Love
(real, genuine love) IS the only doctrine. Intellectual acceptance or rejection of beliefs
"about" God is not what it's all about... IMO :2c:
1 John 4:7-9
7 "Beloved, may we
love one another, because
the love is of God, and
every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth
know God;
8
he who is not loving did not know God, because
God is love.
9 In this
was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son -- the only begotten -- hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him"
1 Corinthians 13:4-13
4 "
Love is patient,
love is kind.
Love does not envy,
love does not boast,
love is not proud.
5
Love does not dishonor others,
love is not self-seeking,
love is not easily angered,
love keeps no record of wrongs.
6
Love does not delight in evil, but
love rejoices with the truth.
7
Love always protects,
love always trusts,
love always hopes,
love always perseveres.
8
Love NEVER fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know
in part and we prophesy
in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know
in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain:
faith, hope and LOVE. But
the greatest of these is LOVE"
John 15:12-17
12 'This is
my command, that
ye love one another, according
as I did love you;
13 greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;
14 ye are my friends, if ye may do whatever I command you;
15 no more do I call you servants, because the servant hath not known what his lord doth, and you I have called friends, because all things that I heard from my Father, I did make known to you.
16 Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.
17
These things I command you,
that ye love one another"
What do you think about all the things Paul had to say to the church about doctrine, contending for sound doctrine, watching out for those who bring division, who teach and lead others astray, etc.? Again - I seem to keep needing to say this :laughing7: - I believe in love - but IMO, there's more in there than "love".
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 06:36:00 AM
What do you think about all the things Paul had to say to the church about doctrine, contending for sound doctrine, watching out for those who bring division, who teach and lead others astray, etc.? Again - I seem to keep needing to say this :laughing7: - I believe in love - but IMO, there's more in there than "love".
Jesus never expected any of His followers to be
bible scholars, and intellectually understand what someone considers to be
"sound doctrine." Jesus wanted His followers to understand His principles of
"love each other as I have loved you" - period. Most people were illiterate anyway at that time. Jesus came to reveal the unambiguous
true nature of God - which is love. And His life, death and resurrection demonstrated that love
perfectly. We are to demonstrate that same love for each other. That
IS the Gospel.
I believe the scriptures say the gospel is Jesus, crucified and risen again. (I can get the reference, but to save time...)
I'm not arguing love, the commandment to love. I "give" that to you. Never questioned. What I question is, that's not all there is. Where does it say "love is all there is, throw out everything else".."period"?
Quote from: BirdSong on April 17, 2013, 06:46:57 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 06:36:00 AM
What do you think about all the things Paul had to say to the church about doctrine, contending for sound doctrine, watching out for those who bring division, who teach and lead others astray, etc.? Again - I seem to keep needing to say this :laughing7: - I believe in love - but IMO, there's more in there than "love".
Jesus never expected any of His followers to be bible scholars, and intellectually understand what someone considers to be "sound doctrine." Jesus wanted His followers to understand His principles of "love each other as I have loved you" - period. Most people were illiterate anyway at that time. Jesus came to reveal the unambiguous true nature of God - which is love. And His life, death and resurrection demonstrated that love perfectly. We are to demonstrate that same love for each other. That IS the Gospel.
Dear Birdsong
I do believe we are living in a very hostile word and those chosen out of the world to follow Jesus are sheep to the slaughter
we have to believe Jesus , perfect example killed at the hands of sinners
all the TRUE prophets were as well as all the apostles
its seems murder is in the hearts of the wicked guised to be keeping Babylon safe for centuries
Matt 24 warns Jesus warns the love of many grow cold because sin abounds in the world , but Gods grace is our salvation , to die is gain as Paul says to elouquently :)
discerning evil and good is part of the glory of Gods plan
got hate the evil and its so well appearing ''outwardly ''
4 Jesus told them, "
Don't let anyone mislead you, 5 for many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah.'
They will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don't panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won't follow immediately.
7 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. 8
But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come. 9 "Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.[b]
10
And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11
And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14
And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations[c] will hear it; and then the end will come.15 "The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration[d] standing in the Holy Place." (Reader, pay attention!)
16 "Then those in Judea must flee to the hills.
17 A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack.
18 A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat.
19 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. 20 And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began.
And it will never be so great again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God's chosen ones.
23 "
Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here is the Messiah,' or 'There he is,' don't believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.26 "So if someone tells you, 'Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,' don't bother to go and look. Or, 'Look, he is hiding here,' don't believe it! 27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man[e] comes. 28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.[f]
29 "Immediately after the anguish of those days,
the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.[g]
30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[h] 31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world
—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
what end does salvation come but by death , it is the last enemy
we can take this spiritually as well as literally both are truthful sayings
Thanks for bringing Jesus' words into the discussion rosie, from that [balanced IMO, rightly dividing)] perspective. There are a lot of specifics to bring into it from Paul, who I believe was teaching us, the ekklesia after the cross in this "church" age - but again, I'm glad you mentioned those words of our Savior. I hadn't thought of those. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 07:09:32 AM
Thanks for bringing Jesus' words into the discussion rosie, from that [balanced IMO, rightly dividing)] perspective. There are a lot of specifics to bring into it from Paul, who I believe was teaching us, the ekklesia after the cross in this "church" age - but again, I'm glad you mentioned those words of our Savior. I hadn't thought of those. Thanks.
Well, as far as the false prophets rosie, I think everyone in this forum are definitely on the right track
(toward the Light). It's pretty obvious
(to me at least) that the false
"Christs" that come
"in His name" - and the false gospels of
hate (eternal torment, annihilation, etc.), rather than
love, coming from the majority of churches
"out in the desert" (earthly, carnal) - performing worldly
"signs and wonders" are exactly what Jesus was referring to.
The right track.......
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Mat 11:29-30)
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
(Luk 9:23)
MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
(Psa 119:97-101)
Quote from: eaglesway on April 17, 2013, 07:56:46 AM
The right track.......
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Mat 11:29-30)
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
(Luk 9:23)
MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
(Psa 119:97-101)
Lovely Bro John :thumbsup:
the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom , but by all means is not the end of it complete salvation is
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD
shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
Quote from: eaglesway on April 17, 2013, 07:56:46 AM
The right track.......
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Mat 11:29-30)
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
(Luk 9:23)
MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
(Psa 119:97-101)
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on April 17, 2013, 08:06:59 AM
...the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom , but by all means is not the end of it complete salvation is
The fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom; but, perfect love casts out all fear.
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 01:13:21 AM
i felt God call me out of mainstream, and i've often thought of that verse.
Hey Jabcat,
What was it like when you felt God call you out of the mainstream (I assume you mean organized religion)?
Quote from: reFORMer on April 17, 2013, 08:41:55 AM
Quote from: rosered on April 17, 2013, 08:06:59 AM
...the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom , but by all means is not the end of it complete salvation is
The fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom; but, perfect love casts out all fear.
I agree with you Bro James that perfect [complete] matured Love cast out fear
, But I believe we have come to this crude Human english languge that fails us at times to communicate as One
fear used here in this verse of Isaiah is a word with also meaning of Reverence definition, a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration
Regard or treat with deep respect. awesome or terrifying
I do believe we never loose that deep respect same as fear of the Lord described , ever in our relationship with Him , maybe it also grows also as eternal
I hope your feet are healing , and feeling much better Bro , you are in my thoughts often , and have always enjoyed your posts
Quote from: BirdSong on April 17, 2013, 06:46:57 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 06:36:00 AM
What do you think about all the things Paul had to say to the church about doctrine, contending for sound doctrine, watching out for those who bring division, who teach and lead others astray, etc.? Again - I seem to keep needing to say this :laughing7: - I believe in love - but IMO, there's more in there than "love".
Jesus never expected any of His followers to be bible scholars, and intellectually understand what someone considers to be "sound doctrine." Jesus wanted His followers to understand His principles of "love each other as I have loved you" - period. Most people were illiterate anyway at that time. Jesus came to reveal the unambiguous true nature of God - which is love. And His life, death and resurrection demonstrated that love perfectly. We are to demonstrate that same love for each other. That IS the Gospel.
I see both arguments as valid points, and I'm not sure you aren't both actually making the same point. There are many illiterate people in the world today. How can they study the scriptures? They are mostly too busy just trying to get enough to eat each day to even learn to read. They depend on others for what spiritual teaching they can get.
God is love. Love
is an integral part of the Gospel. There
is a need to keep out the contamination of heresy. God's Love
does cover all the bases. It
is an act of love on behalf of other believers to strive to keep the gospel message pure. It
is an act of love to take care of other's needs. If we are truly living in the light of the Love of God, we will be doing all these things for the benefit of others. IMO, as for the illiterate and those who never heard,
Romans 2 says:
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
In Revelations we are told that we will all be judged by our deeds, whether good or bad. God sees what is in the intentions of your heart and what you do with those intentions. If your life is all about God's love, you will be doing all these things and more! :HeartThrob:
In Revelations we are told that we will all be judged by our deeds, whether good or bad. God sees what is in the intentions of your heart and what you do with those intentions. If your life is all about God's love, you will be doing all these things and more!Well said brother jbertonbounds. Sort of like saying climb on board the ark now cause its gonna start raining soon. The later rain is just on the horizon. I am a 50 year old surfer and I can tell you that the wave you want to be on has to be the one you see on the horizon. I really need to go back to Costa Rica and spend some time again. Spent 3 years of my life there surfing and really getting into God.
QuoteRomans 2 says:
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
In Revelations we are told that we will all be judged by our deeds, whether good or bad. God sees what is in the intentions of your heart and what you do with those intentions. If your life is all about God's love, you will be doing all these things and more!
Yes Bro Jberton !
I agree with you
How blessed we are though to be able to read His word ? and better yet to be given understanding !
God is awesome and love and so good to all ,
I have struggled with hate my whole life , how can hate be so cruel and ignorant
all the needless suffering on the poor and innocent folk and for what gain ?
for me being ignorant and innocent have almost the same meaning , but the difference for me is the ''intent of the heart '' not knowing the ways of God and not wanting to know the ways of God when given opportunity
the first encounter Abram has was sheer terror of the Lord in a dark and thick place of no understanding what was happening to him , but the Lord in His mercy over time changed Abram and even changed his name meaning to Abraham , the father of many nations by these two sons of his loins [within him waiting to be born ] seeds of faith
one is blessed and has the light as the stars of heaven Above in the darkness being the light in the darkness of night in them our Issacs and the ismaels whom are as the sands of the sea shore so tiny and seperate alwys stumbling on one another whom are tossed by winds and the raging seas
I LOVE HIS WORD and am so very thankful to be chosen out of the world to be taught of Him , and am forever thankul and humbled by His Love for us all , I totally give him the credit and glory , i was never expecting anything you see but living a simple and non meaningful life before He come
Quote from: rosered on April 17, 2013, 05:28:31 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on April 17, 2013, 08:41:55 AM
Quote from: rosered on April 17, 2013, 08:06:59 AM
...the fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom , but by all means is not the end of it complete salvation is
The fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom; but, perfect love casts out all fear.
I agree with you Bro James that perfect [complete] matured Love cast out fear
, But I believe we have come to this crude Human english languge that fails us at times to communicate as One
fear used here in this verse of Isaiah is a word with also meaning of Reverence definition, a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration
Regard or treat with deep respect. awesome or terrifying
I do believe we never loose that deep respect same as fear of the Lord described , ever in our relationship with Him , maybe it also grows also as eternal
I hope your feet are healing , and feeling much better Bro , you are in my thoughts often , and have always enjoyed your posts
Re: feet healing, feeling better, in my thoughts often, enjoyed your posts... me, too!!!!
re: fear-- Thanks Rosie for sharing a more inclusive definition... I often think about my parents, who were devout Catholics, but loved/ reverenced God more than they loved their church's teachings...during the time of Vatican II with all the changes going on within the RCC, my father would often remind us that the church will change its teachings again and again, but God doesn't change His, so we to follow God's teachings (I think he meant very specifically to love God with whole heart, mind, and love neighbor as oneself)
So much more could be shared ... it seems to me that man very frequently "changes" the meaning of words or perhaps just uses the word in a more negative sense... I considered starting a new thread in Word Studies "fear of the Lord" for more discussion on how man has "changed" the meaning of words...
Rosie, I so enjoy your enthusiasm (somewhere I read that enthusiasm --> en=in thus=god)
Your posts are always filled with great reverence for God's Word (Word made flesh=living word Jesus; and the written word (the scriptures)
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on April 17, 2013, 06:13:54 PM
In Revelations we are told that we will all be judged by our deeds, whether good or bad. God sees what is in the intentions of your heart and what you do with those intentions. If your life is all about God's love, you will be doing all these things and more!Well said brother jbertonbounds. Sort of like saying climb on board the ark now cause its gonna start raining soon. The later rain is just on the horizon. I am a 50 year old surfer and I can tell you that the wave you want to be on has to be the one you see on the horizon. I really need to go back to Costa Rica and spend some time again. Spent 3 years of my life there surfing and really getting into God.
wow bro Mpl ,
Thanks for your post , its all so connected in ways only God can do !! you had posted first before while I was typing and am amazed at how God shows us all His ways
yes the intent of the heart must be known to us , so many times I have thought , why Lord did I do that ? and question my own intent of the heart , it is about seeking good , only God is good Jesus said in scriptures once , when they tried to call him good master
I always consider the Lord Jesus and His life giving words
Quote
Re: feet healing, feeling better, in my thoughts often, enjoyed your posts... me, too!!!!
re: fear-- Thanks Rosie for sharing a more inclusive definition... I often think about my parents, who were devout Catholics, but loved/ reverenced God more than they loved their church's teachings...during the time of Vatican II with all the changes going on within the RCC, my father would often remind us that the church will change its teachings again and again, but God doesn't change His, so we to follow God's teachings (I think he meant very specifically to love God with whole heart, mind, and love neighbor as oneself)
So much more could be shared ... it seems to me that man very frequently "changes" the meaning of words or perhaps just uses the word in a more negative sense... I considered starting a new thread in Word Studies "fear of the Lord" for more discussion on how man has "changed" the meaning of words...
Rosie, I so enjoy your enthusiasm (somewhere I read that enthusiasm --> en=in thus=god)
Your posts are always filled with great reverence for God's Word (Word made flesh=living word Jesus; and the written word (the scriptures)
Sister Anna ,
I see also that in your posts ! its the Lord doing His moving , living works in us , we become His vessels for His use ! I so love your parents thoughts , they are pure towards the Lord and what a blessing they are ! even you are blessed to this day as we are also to understand them !
God does not change , but we do ! , some for the better some for the worse for wear
but we reverance Him ! because He Loves us so and being taght of Him has its chastings and scourgings when needed
Ah yes the chastising I know so well Rosered. I see that you also know the bitter sweet of chastising.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on April 17, 2013, 08:09:42 PM
Ah yes the chastising I know so well Rosered. I see that you also know the bitter sweet of chastising.
Yes Bro mlps ,
I do , it changes everything , does it not ? our perception of just how much we need to be obedient children , the Light being children of the day exposes everything within us
A wonderful Father
Deu 8:5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, [so] the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
Pro 13:24 He that spareth his
rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
chasten Strong's G3811 - paideuō
1) to train children
a) to be
instructed or taught or learnb) to cause one to learn
2) to chastise
a) to chastise or castigate with words,
to correct1) of those who are
moulding the character of others by reproof and admonitionb) of God
1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
c)
to chastise with blows, to scourge1) of a father punishing his son
2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged
I was so foolish to think that it was the devil giving me hard times and fiery trials when I was so young in my twenties , little did I know these things were very nessessary for the spiritual growth and education of learning to trust in the Lord and obey Him
humility is what keeps us in a place of reasoning with Him
I always think of Jesus , and what He endured in Hebrews He learned obedience though the things he suffered .
the day the scriptures opened up and Breathed on me was a blessed and thankful day I can remember
Pro 15:33 The fear of the LORD [is] the instruction of wisdom; and before honour [is] humility.
Pro 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour [is] humility.
Pro 22:4 By humility [and] the fear of the LORD [are] riches, and honour, and life.
Strong's H6038 - `anavah
1) humility, meekness
from the root word Strong's H6035 - `anav
) poor, humble, afflicted, meek
a) poor, needy
b) poor and weak
c) poor, weak and afflicted
d) humble, lowly, meek
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 17, 2013, 05:00:31 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 17, 2013, 01:13:21 AM
i felt God call me out of mainstream, and i've often thought of that verse.
Hey Jabcat,
What was it like when you felt God call you out of the mainstream (I assume you mean organized religion)?
Well, it was painful. Long story short, I ended up literally on my face before God, as He s/w "broke me", laying it heavy on my heart to surrender and be obedient to Him. I was "raised in church" my whole life, preacher's kid. Wife, children, myself all "on the roll". Leaving "broke something" between my wife and I - "it's something we share, do together - I knew this was going to happen" to quote her. I initially didn't handle it well at all times, at one point making a really unthinking (stupid) comment about it. I'd advise great care, running everything before the throne of grace before opening one's mouth, etc.
Several years down the road, I still wonder at times, especially when I experience some of the wide range of mixture of things people believe "out here" (not that any of us have all truth, but ....). Anyway, still "alone" out here, except for my brothers and sisters here - and now my wife and [adult] children are also both OK with it...I recently offered to attend with my wife again, "for her sake"...she was like "nah, I don't believe like them". Still, they don't have the fellowship I do, and often I'm concerned, and sometimes feel responsible and even guilty...
The denominations were Assembly of God, Church of God, then 15-20 years most recently in Southern Baptist prior to being pulled out about 5 years ago.
I'll come back in and share a few links as I find them that describe in more detail my experience. They may not be "in order" of sequence. Maybe something will be of use to you. Blessings, James.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/welcome-central/new-guy-new-into-ur-just-out-of-denomination-yikes!/msg17321/#msg17321
http://tentmaker.org/forum/testimonies-(testify-here!)/finally-leaving-church-after-8-months/msg58311/#msg58311
http://tentmaker.org/forum/testimonies-(testify-here!)/finally-leaving-church-after-8-months/msg58327/#msg58327
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/sharing-ur-with-the-pastor-(taking-the-plunge)/msg27564/#msg27564
James thank you for the link to your past here at Tentmaker. I can't stop reading your original posts. You really told the pastor some truths he had never heard before. :banana:
Thanks bro. I believe each of our experiences can be helpful in some way, to some one . :thumbsup:
Thanks, James! I am checking out those links.
By the way, my father was also a strick SB preacher. I know the fear of hell better than most!
Thank God, now I now the joy of the truth of universal reconciliation!
James,
Your membership here began in about 2008 correct? Did you hang out watching in the wings so to speak at first or jump right in with the usual introductions and start posting? From the things I have read if those were your first posts you probably had been sitting on the side lines for quite some time before uttering such profound statements of faith. :banana:
Wow, I went back to my original posts as well,its great to see how God brings you through!
James,
I found your posts very interesting. Your situation at that time was remarkably similar to mine. I was raised in a strict SB home, and my dad was my pastor. Now my wife is unsure of the things I am now sharing with her about UR, but in your words, "She seems to be very open to UR, but still has those life-long Baptist roots...she can go and not be real affected, just sort of like that, 'water off a duck's back.' " We raised our now teenage children ET, but now it seems awkward changing my tune. The Lord has chosen to reveal UR to me and as you said, "God's presence is becoming even more real, and He has lit a fire inside me that, even though I'm realizing even more His goodness and mercy, still compels me to seek Him and to walk in His presence." I also feel compelled to speak out. I know that won't last long before I get ousted. So either way, the end of Baptist church membership for me is coming. I am involved in our SB church organization helping with many things that would not otherwise get done, including playing the keyboard in our worship team. I am also a deacon and a member of the church counsel. If I leave them now, it will be a major blow to that church, who has already seen so much hardship and hurt with regards to a split caused by differing tastes in worship style, among other things. And I really love those people! I REALLY FEEL TRAPPED ! If I leave I will have nowhere to go! My worship will be me alone – which is fine, but I feel sort of downhearted at that prospect. But still I must question if I should be there. I have often wondered the same question you posed, "To what extent does 'come out of her My people' entail? Refusing to participate in certain things (denominationalism, hell teaching,etc.) or not darkening the doorway?"
I really appreciate your sharing that with me.
John
Hi all. Yeah Fred, it's interesting - and a little frightening - to go back and read some of those things. But God is faithful.
Thanks mp. What happened is, I went through a very trying personal/professional situation, that s/w "broke me". I still have some of the consequences years later. I thought God had placed me in a position that I had basically prepared my whole life for - it was a disaster, and I ended up having many problems and finally asked to resign. Also, I'd lived my whole life (almost) in either dedication, fear, or a mixture of both. So one day in my despair, for some reason, I typed "is hell eternal". I believe the first author I was led to was J. Preston Eby. Over the next few months I absorbed/devoured information, scriptures - I was basically a huge, dry sponge, conditioned by 40+ years of fear and feeling to never "measure up" or be at peace. So yes, I spent about a year or year and a half absorbing, seeking, thinking through what I was being shown, comparing it to what I'd "always believed", and God had just brought me to a place to where I was just "ready" - very needfully so - as I had prayed for God to just take me during the aforementioned life/vocational situation. So I needed just what He had for me. I wasn't just playing around, if you know what I mean. So about a year+ later, I decided to join the TM forum.
jberton, I know our situations are very similar. I recognized that right away, but never had really felt led to jump into all that in detail, until you asked. I believe God brings things up when they need to be. )Sometimes I miss it and jump right in and "get in His way" though.) :punish: :laughing7: It actually sounds like your situation is even more intense than mine, because I was in a huge congregation, and though very involved, not a deacon, not "the only one" who could do stuff. Also, my children are grown. We homeschooled them, so they were pretty independent thinkers anyway. My son had basically been questioning things anyway, and my daughter basically said "I thought if you went to hell that was it - but I like it".
If I could give any advice regarding your family, it would be, be gentle, take it slow. Be flexible - if your wife needs you to continue going with her for awhile, as long as God doesn't "forbid" it inside of you, go, smile, praise the Lord as much as you're able. Share your new revelations ONLY as God leads and opens a door. A couple of things I've done is just gently suggest things, ask questions, put out a solid "UR" scripture and say something like "there's a lot to think about here, maybe different than what we've always been taught" - and let the Holy Spirit work. On the other hand, that either may not be what God would have some do, and, it may even be me being a bit of a wimp/chicken, operating out of fear sometimes. For example - I was just thinking last night about posting (at least some of) the letter to the pastor on my facebook page. That might really stir some stuff up, and also, I may be too chicken and "worried about my "reputation" [stupid ego/pride] amongst friends I've known all my life and who knew me "one way" - AND NOW WHAT!!?? Mostly though, I'd suggest the gentleness and caution be with your family - IMO, other than God, they are your first priority and need your patience, nurturing, faithfullness, etc. (this coming from someone who's messed some of that up, and still questions some things, i.e., "how's my family really doing - they're not "going to church", I don't REALLY know what their spiritual life is like - when I see my son doing something I question, is it my fault because I....etc., etc." So pray, run everything by the throne of grace, look for the Spirit's leading. Open your mouth when it's time, bite your tongue when it's not. I know this is woefully inadequate - I'm still on my own journey - with few answers and still many questions. But 2 things that stick with me. Everyone's got to be better off if we're truly in god's will. Also, a couple have told me about God having to take us outside the camp/into the wilderness/desert to prepare us more for what He wants from us. We may perceive that as only, but Jesus did say we're never alone, never forsaken.
Blessings, James.
James
When I first began to believe in UR I found J. Preston Eby's writings and because I enjoyed reading him so much I compiled all of his material into one single file and made my own kindle book out of it. He had lots of small pieces and I gathered them all up and put them together. Made for some great reading I might add.
that sounds great :thumbsup:
Thanks James.
Oh, and I have done the FaceBook posts already. They were "liked" by some, and poo-pooed by some. Some sent me private messages, and some public. Some asked questions, and some told me I had been deceived. My brother was all upset when he saw it but when he called me to talk about it, the Spirit took over my tongue and I fully answered all his questions with joy, excitement, and without stammering! Wow!
awesome! :gimmefive:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on April 19, 2013, 12:02:03 AM
James
When I first began to believe in UR I found J. Preston Eby's writings and because I enjoyed reading him so much I compiled all of his material into one single file and made my own kindle book out of it. He had lots of small pieces and I gathered them all up and put them together. Made for some great reading I might add.
I'm trying to remember what of his I've read.. I know it's something.. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 19, 2013, 12:58:54 AM
Thanks James.
Oh, and I have done the FaceBook posts already. They were "liked" by some, and poo-pooed by some. Some sent me private messages, and some public. Some asked questions, and some told me I had been deceived. My brother was all upset when he saw it but when he called me to talk about it, the Spirit took over my tongue and I fully answered all his questions with joy, excitement, and without stammering! Wow!
Quote from: jabcat on April 19, 2013, 03:30:48 AM
awesome! :gimmefive:
Awesome is right! I'm someone who absolutely hates confrontation, so I find facebook and forums to be great tools for talking with folks.. "Bible based Universal Redemptionist" is on my timeline.. sort of an intro to get things going.. and it's low key to start out with.
great job, everybody! :gsmile: :gthumbsup:
P.S - great posts Jabcat.. you're a real good encourager.. (edifier) and I bet you plant many seeds..
while being a peacemaker.. :gsmile: (and humble! : )
You're very kind. We stumble along, He keeps us out of the pit. :)
Blessings friend.
marie, a couple of the really good ones of J. Preston Eby's I can think of are "The Law of Circularity", and "The Lake of Fire Series". Very good information there. :thumbsup:
I am scouring my hard drive trying to locate the files I use to create my kindle book. I still have the book but the files are the individual works of J. Preston Eby. I like how he titled each piece of his work so that one may be distinguished from the other. James this is the reason right here why you and I connect so well. James as a fellow disciple what other reading would you suggest? Which books of the bible do you read over and over? I am very interested in your pattern and I continue reading your old posts to really get a feel from your perspective. :banana:
Enjoyed your testimony Bro J ! :HeartThrob:
Hi Jab,
Thanks for sharing your experience with us. You have been an inspiration to me. I always read what you have to say, it blesses me so much in so many ways. Another thing, I see things pretty much the same way you do. :dsunny:
I do believe we as UR believers do not speak out enough, we don't share our beliefs enough. I think our hearts should be burning with a desire to help all who are in bondage to the ET belief. There are so many who are scared, frustrated, and need to hear the truth about hell. Just knowing the truth about the word "forever" would be a big improvement. Just understanding the truth about that one word might give some food for thought among the ET'rs. Wish I knew how to go about doing this in a big way? :dontknow:
I was talking to an ET preacher the other day and I ask him "if Jesus died for all sins past present and future, and if there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, what is hell for"? He said "that is easy, it's for unbelievers". I said, "is unbelief a sin"? he said "yes". I also ask him if he "believed that there are people burning in hell now"? He said "yes". I said, "do you believe God is a fair and just God"? He said, "Oh yes". I said "well, if people are burning in hell now and Satan is still running around decieving people then these people are suffering longer than Satan, who is the perpetrator, doesn't that seem unfair"? He said, "Satan is being tormented all the time because he knows where he will wind up". He told me he "would never believe anything different". I thought about Paul and wondered if he thought this also?
They have answers for everything, or at least they think they do. I feel sorry for those who think like that and also get a little bit frustrated at them, but I try to keep in mind that we can only believe what God has given us to believe. They just need educating and who is able to do that? Us. With God working in and through us we can educate these people. Only thing is, we need to be well versed and ready for the pursecution we will have to endure.
CHB
Hi mp, rosie, C - thanks and blessings all :)
mp, I like how Thomas J. Kissinger presents many things - straightforward, simple, not filled up with a lot of tangents. He wrote The Nobe Berean, and The Glory of God and Honor of Kings, and those can be accessed at his website, which I believe is www.hearingthetruthaboutgod.com. I'll double check, but you can also just do a search for him of course.
C, you're a blessing to me. We've seen many things the same way for a long time. And even when we don't, we can still remains friends and share with each other. We're not so far apart or so "out there" away from the scriptures that we have to take turns rebuking each other. :laughing7:
Blessings all. :HeartThrob:
James that link doesn't work for me. Thanks anyway though.
never can remember if it's 'about' or 'of'
it's www.hearingthetruthofgod.com :)
Quote from: jabcat on April 18, 2013, 05:54:46 AM
Several years down the road, I still wonder at times, especially when I experience some of the wide range of mixture of things people believe "out here" (not that any of us have all truth, but ....)
(Similar to Moslems' stress on outwardness,) the steeplehouses attendees personal expressions are suppressed. This gives the illusion of greater agreement among them than there is in reality.
We are, "...to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace" (vs 3) until "...we should all attain to the unity of the faith and of the realization of the son of God..." (vs 13, Ep 4)
http://www.billbrittonministries.com/site/789802/page/815337
Several of you would probably be very blessed by the following:
There are very few tracts I've found worth handing out over the years. Chapter 5 in Eagle Saints Arise! by Bill Britton I used to make copies of to give away. It is called "Jonathan and Zadock." As close as David and Jonathan were, Jonathan wasn't there when David came into the kingdom; but, Zadok was. Zadok went out and was identified with the malcontents, the ones who saw the apostasy around them and could not get along with it. Jonanthan stayed in his father Saul's house.
Have you seen the one Bill Britton wrote about Peter's shadow?
Quote from: reFORMer on April 21, 2013, 06:39:36 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 18, 2013, 05:54:46 AM
Several years down the road, I still wonder at times, especially when I experience some of the wide range of mixture of things people believe "out here" (not that any of us have all truth, but ....)
(Similar to Moslems' stress on outwardness,) the steeplehouses attendees personal expressions are suppressed. This gives the illusion of greater agreement among them than there is in reality.
I'm sure there's something to that. Too, witness all the thousands of sects/denominations, and I did feel a strong pull out of there. Still, I've seen some pretty bizarre things in the past 5 years. :mshock:
I've never personally seen so many professed believers disrespect the scriptures as in the past 5 years, even to the point of insisting sound doctrine isn't even important - despite what the scriptures say. I've got one person who tries to pull me into her network who screams, cusses people out, threatens them, says she's going to heal the universe and that she's the Oracle of Yahweh. Also describes herself as the Messiah, etc. Then there are tons of folks on facebook etc. who call themselves bishops and apostles who are teaching their own versions of the gospel. Much confusion, IMO.
Sure, I agree there's much confusion and division within denominations too. As Gary says, this is an age of [extreme] mixture of truth and error. IMO, we've got a long ways to go until there's true unity - and also IMO, that's not going to happen until Jesus steps in and straightens things out. He knows what He's doing! It's coming! :2c:
:gimmefive:
Awesome Bro J , Amen!!!!
I cannot tell you just how truthful that is ! for me the Lord is teaching me to wait on Him , over and over its the same message ''wait on the Lord '' Let the Lord Judge His people , , be patient , trust in the Lord with your whole heart . This is pretty much how the Lord is dealing with me personally right now , as many I know are understanding the same things right now , so your message confirms this more than you know !
Blessings :HeartThrob:
I'm glad rosie. I know within MYSELF there's plenty of unknown, things I change my views/understandings on - things I wish I understood or had the insight into. So I'm not saying "I've got it figured out" :laughing7:. We all need Him. So being as the Bereans, and yes, waiting on Him, hearts open, will surrendered, keeping our eyes on Him. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
I'm glad rosie. I know within MYSELF there's plenty of unknown, things I change my views/understandings on - things I wish I understood or had the insight into. So I'm not saying "I've got it figured out" :laughing7:. We all need Him. So being as the Bereans, and yes, waiting on Him, hearts open, will surrendered, keeping our eyes on Him. :thumbsup:
Agreed!
PS
Like you, I do have some things "figured out" and like you I am still learning, and very eager to do so. I have the time, the energy, and the freedom to really study in depth and so I am constantly searching for websites, people, books, etc., from whom I can learn = grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
I'm a realist=considers things as they are NOW, so I use Phil 2:10-11 ( every knee bow at the name of Jesus and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father) in testing the spirits whether they are of God 1 John 4:1
My one BIG question always is: to what name are they bowing and to what name are they confessing?
Does the person, the singer, the book, etc., lead me to bowing at the name of Jesus, or to idolizing a human being, a man-organized belief system, etc., etc.,
My one desire is to know Jesus, Him crucified and the power of His resurrection.
Quote from: anna274 on April 21, 2013, 10:18:06 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
I'm glad rosie. I know within MYSELF there's plenty of unknown, things I change my views/understandings on - things I wish I understood or had the insight into. So I'm not saying "I've got it figured out" :laughing7:. We all need Him. So being as the Bereans, and yes, waiting on Him, hearts open, will surrendered, keeping our eyes on Him. :thumbsup:
Agreed!
PS
Like you, I do have some things "figured out" and like you I am still learning, and very eager to do so. I have the time, the energy, and the freedom to really study in depth and so I am constantly searching for websites, people, books, etc., from whom I can learn = grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
I'm a realist=considers things as they are NOW, so I use Phil 2:10-11 ( every knee bow at the name of Jesus and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father) in testing the spirits whether they are of God 1 John 4:1
My one BIG question always is: to what name are they bowing and to what name are they confessing?
Does the person, the singer, the book, etc., lead me to bowing at the name of Jesus, or to idolizing a human being, a man-organized belief system, etc., etc.,
My one desire is to know Jesus, Him crucified and the power of His resurrection.
Hi Bro J and Sis Anna ,
Well as you know I have been in a quiet place , till just the past few days
and I never know if that silence [all mouths will be stopped] will come again and when it does , its scary
I wish I could explain it , not possible
I have to confess , I do have a fear of the Lord , but its a healthy one
alot of folks hate to hear that , but still , its the truth
I do repect His Word and judgments on me and so many times I go though the same lessons over and over again , hard lessons , mind you , but at the same time I do feel its the Lord dealing with me and am gratlful He is not given up on me yet ..
my biggest fear is the Lord would leave me in that stubborness , its unbearable
I fear the scriptures as true in the sense I am ever learning and never coming to the ''knowledge of the truth '' this is a scary thing to me
I know how badly I need the Lords help in every way and every day , life can seem so insignifigant without His presence , moving us , and thats where personally the struggles begin
for example a study on fasting and prayer , Jesus told His students [disciples under His teaching ] says this kind cannot come out by nothing but fasting and prayer
And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
sometimes we are left powerless over the evil , in others and ourselves , and Jesus tells us plain
how to do it , but to me the hard part is uderstand , what prayer and fasting is
I looked up fasting and its says''' in the sense of shutting the mouth ''fasting Strong's H6685 - tsowm fromm 6684
1) (Qal) to abstain from food, fast mouth being shut
for me that can mean many things , physically letting no food enter
but spiritually , it can mean not saying anything , just staying in quiet prayer to the Lord over the evil matters we find ourselves under , being in the world , but not of it
because Jesus WORD IS FOOD [bread of Heaven ] to the soul and Spirit
I do respect what Jesus says '''Every Word That proceeds out of the mouth of God ''
here
we see its those under the Law , we are under Grace , but there is a Law of Liberty[freedom] that is also not to be abused
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do,
as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
So I know in order for me not to be judged and cannot judge anyone , but myself only
even Paul under his vexationof spirit with alexender the coppersmith says ''let the Lord repay him for his evil deeds
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil:
the Lord reward him according to his works so is this how we deal with the evil works of mankind when we are being done wrong ?
Rosie, I have some idea of the consternation you seem to be experiencing re: fasting and prayer... and my questions arose from the same Scripture you mentioned... Jesus saying they
cannot come forth except by prayer and fasting... BECAUSE I had already determined that Anna would best express my favorite verse Psalm 27:4 and when I searched Luke to learn more about Anna... in Luke 2:37 ...served God with fastings and prayer night and day. Well, needless to say, I wanted to know exactly what was meant by "fastings" (prayer is one thing I've always more or less understood)... I won't have time today to share some of the things that brought peace to my mind and heart regarding fasting... in the meantime, you are in my prayers...May the God of peace, mercy, grace, love shine deeply in your heart.
Quote from: anna274 on April 21, 2013, 11:17:19 PM
Rosie, I have some idea of the consternation you seem to be experiencing re: fasting and prayer... and my questions arose from the same Scripture you mentioned... Jesus saying they
cannot come forth except by prayer and fasting... BECAUSE I had already determined that Anna would best express my favorite verse Psalm 27:4 and when I searched Luke to learn more about Anna... in Luke 2:37 ...served God with fastings and prayer night and day. Well, needless to say, I wanted to know exactly what was meant by "fastings" (prayer is one thing I've always more or less understood)... I won't have time today to share some of the things that brought peace to my mind and heart regarding fasting... in the meantime, you are in my prayers...May the God of peace, mercy, grace, love shine deeply in your heart.
THANKS God bless you sis! :HeartThrob:
Psalm 27; 4 One thing I have asked from the Lord, that I shall seek:
That I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life,
To behold the beauty of the Lord
And to meditate in His temple.
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2013, 09:22:17 AM
Then there are tons of folks on facebook etc. who call themselves bishops and apostles who are teaching their own versions of the gospel. Much confusion, IMO.
Sure, I agree there's much confusion and division within denominations too. As Gary says, this is an age of [extreme] mixture of truth and error. IMO, we've got a long ways to go until there's true unity - and also IMO, that's not going to happen until Jesus steps in and straightens things out. He knows what He's doing! It's coming!
Yes, there is such a mixture, that if we focus on the confusion of it all, we will become confused ourselves. We must always focus on God's word, and measure everything by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit's teaching. We must always be devoted to prayer, worship, and good works (which is worship). Then the Spirit will lead us in Truth.
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
I know within MYSELF there's plenty of unknown, things I change my views/understandings on - things I wish I understood or had the insight into. So I'm not saying "I've got it figured out" :laughing7:. We all need Him. So being as the Bereans, and yes, waiting on Him, hearts open, will surrendered, keeping our eyes on Him. :thumbsup:
That's good, because if we ever say "I've got it figured out," then we have become "wise and learned" (in the sense that the Pharisees were). I know people who "have all the answers" when it comes to religious teachings. They are often seminary graduates (no offense to any of you who may have gone to seminary - I know they are not all like that). They are usually those who have been taught the doctrines of their denomination, and if you differ in opinion on a matter, you are always
WRONG! Then they proceed to correct you by regurgitating the teachings they received while in school. Of course I'm not talking about all people educated in religious schools. Only the few I have encountered who, without saying so, I knew considered themselves a cut above me spiritually.
Quote from: anna274 on April 21, 2013, 10:18:06 PM
I'm a realist=considers things as they are NOW, so I use Phil 2:10-11 ( every knee bow at the name of Jesus and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father) in testing the spirits whether they are of God 1 John 4:1
My one BIG question always is: to what name are they bowing and to what name are they confessing?
Does the person, the singer, the book, etc., lead me to bowing at the name of Jesus, or to idolizing a human being, a man-organized belief system, etc., etc.,
My one desire is to know Jesus, Him crucified and the power of His resurrection.
Awesome, Anna!
This is a very interest perspective.
I'm going to try to remember this when I encounter teachings I question in the future.
Isn't there a scripture that says to question all things or test all things or something like that? (I searched but couldn't find it.)
re: testing the spirits
1 John 4:1 (KJV)
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
one of my favorite one liners:
1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
That may be the scripture I was thinking about. Thanks.
(1Thess. 5:21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
CHB
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 22, 2013, 05:09:41 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2013, 09:22:17 AM
Then there are tons of folks on facebook etc. who call themselves bishops and apostles who are teaching their own versions of the gospel. Much confusion, IMO.
Sure, I agree there's much confusion and division within denominations too. As Gary says, this is an age of [extreme] mixture of truth and error. IMO, we've got a long ways to go until there's true unity - and also IMO, that's not going to happen until Jesus steps in and straightens things out. He knows what He's doing! It's coming!
Yes, there is such a mixture, that if we focus on the confusion of it all, we will become confused ourselves. We must always focus on God's word, and measure everything by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit's teaching. We must always be devoted to prayer, worship, and good works (which is worship). Then the Spirit will lead us in Truth.
Amen. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on April 22, 2013, 09:13:10 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 22, 2013, 05:09:41 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2013, 09:22:17 AM
Then there are tons of folks on facebook etc. who call themselves bishops and apostles who are teaching their own versions of the gospel. Much confusion, IMO.
Sure, I agree there's much confusion and division within denominations too. As Gary says, this is an age of [extreme] mixture of truth and error. IMO, we've got a long ways to go until there's true unity - and also IMO, that's not going to happen until Jesus steps in and straightens things out. He knows what He's doing! It's coming!
Yes, there is such a mixture, that if we focus on the confusion of it all, we will become confused ourselves. We must always focus on God's word, and measure everything by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit's teaching. We must always be devoted to prayer, worship, and good works (which is worship). Then the Spirit will lead us in Truth.
Amen. :thumbsup:
I believe there will be a unified body rising up to meet the Lord when He comes. I am not saying I think all Christians will be unified, I don't. Only "the wise virgins" are hearing the call to "Come out" and go to the "wedding" of the Bride and the Lamb.
Only the overcomers are concerned with the unity of the body- they are not seeking to advance their own spiritual careers(sarcsm) or running from suffering or seeking to attai the complete mastery of some perspective sytematic theology or another.
Overcomers are mature, but they are not necessarily old. They may be new believers but they are "ripe" on the stalk- ready to fall into the ground and die in order to produce more fruit for the kingdom, such as Stephen the deacon/evangelist of Acts.
You know how lightning works?
Positive ions build up in the clouds and on the ground as negative ions build up in the air and at a certain point the collide and energy is released into the void between them.
This unified mature body is prophesied, imo, in Ephesians 1 and 4, Revelations10 and 12, and acts 2- among others, as a result of the Headship of Jesus functioning in members of the Body ad by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
IMO, It is simply unbelief in the fact that God will still operate supernaturally in the earth, and operate primarily THROUGH AND AMONG HIS PEOPLE, that causes us always to look for natural cause and geo-political developements to read the signs of the times. I read the signs of the times through the Body of Christ.
It shall come to pass in the last days says the Lord that I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh.
This age began with a tremendous outpouring, I believe it will go out the same way it came in- a manifestation of a holy, loving wonderful God dwelling in the midst of a remnant. Martyrs in whom the sufferings of Christ will be finished in the end of the age.
Rom 8:18,19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
2Ti 2:10-12 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (11) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: (12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:
Php 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; (11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead(IMO Paul is speaking of the first resurrection).
The Bride will begin to come down out of the heavens as more positive ions build up here on the ground(overcomers being "beautiful feet" in earth) and more positive ions build up in the heavens(overcomers/martyrs under the altar, before the throne) creating a conduit for energy to be released "in the air"- dethroning the "prince of the power of the air" and "manifesting Jesus Chist" as the "light of the world before men". This is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in His sight.
"For the coming of the son of man will be as the lightning shining from the east to the west"-(across every visible horizon spiritually and physically)
:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
Eaglesway,
This was awesome "This age began with a tremendous outpouring, I believe it will go out the same way it came in- a manifestation of a holy, loving wonderful God dwelling in the midst of a remnant. Martyrs in whom the sufferings of Christ will be finished in the end of the age."
This agrees with my own theology, thank you for the confirmation. :banana:
I liked Eaglesway's lightning metaphor, and have a bit to add. Modern satellite imaging has shown that a lightning bolt does not stop in the thundercloud - it reaches beyond, to the very edge of space. The electrical potential is truly between the earth and the heavens.
To add to the bolt of lightening image, the exchange of power is the hiding place of thunder. The sound of "His voice is upon the face of the waters." The Word daily coming upon us, the coming to identify us with the brightness of His glory results in great voices. Humanity's Savior says, "I answered you in the secret place of thunder." (Ps 817)
Luke 17, Concordant Literal
23 And they shall be declaring to you, 'Lo! there!' or 'Lo! here!' You may not come away, nor yet should you be pursuing.
24 For even as the lightning, flashing out from here under heaven to there under heaven, is shining, thus will be the Son of Mankind in His day.
25 Yet first He must be suffering many things and be rejected by this generation.
"Lightning" here Thayer's refers to as "the light of a lamp." I think I remember astrope is rather generic, including what we mean by "lightning," as an electrical discharge, a bolt of lightning, light cast by a lamp, or when dawn comes up.
The latter has meant a lot to me. Dawn is not sudden, but it is rather fast. When it comes it happens everywhere around us. "From here..to there..." the entire heaven is lightened. It's not something done in a corner. The birds, symbolic of spirits, skydwellers, greet the advent of light with high voices before the other lifeforms bear witness, they help awaken us in our resurrection out of sleep. The day starts with a fiery wound in the eastern sky.
By omission Luke notes how it is not so much a coming from somewhere else, but everywhere an inescapable light grows brighter, an identity becoming manifest in a new way. It is the LORD Himself in the midst of us. When Jesus says, "Thus will be the Son of Mankind in His day," it is larger than his Adamic identity. We also, as Sons of Humans made to drink of that One Spirit, are fulfillers of the Messianic position and function. Jesus says not only that, "They shall be one flock," but continues with, "[They shall be] one shepherd." We are in the day of the Lord, the day which has no genesis nor setting of its lamp. We are that day breaking upon the world.
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. (Rm 1312) Our, "...putting on the "implements of light" correspond with wearing Him, "The-Light-of-the-world."
"Arise, become light, for your light is coming and the glory of IEUE is rising upon you." (Is 601)
Psalms 29 the voice of the Lord strikes with flashes of lightening, the voice of the Lord shakes the desert of Kadesg
the voice of the Lord twists the oaks and strips the forests bare.And in His temple,all cry ,GLORY!
The Lord sit's enthroned over the flood,The Lord is enthroned as King forever.
The Lord gives strength to His people,The Lord Blesses His people with peace.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be sudden!
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be g r a d u a l.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be unnoticed by most of the world, just like his first coming.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be by appearances to different people at different times as they are ready.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus has already taken place centuries ago.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus has already taken place recently.
Hmmm. This might make a good topic to do a poll on. :Chinscratch:
But then again, it might open up a real can of worms! :eek:
:dunno2:
Quote from: anna274 on April 21, 2013, 10:18:06 PM
I'm a realist=considers things as they are NOW, so I use Phil 2:10-11 ( every knee bow at the name of Jesus and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father) in testing the spirits whether they are of God 1 John 4:1
My one BIG question always is: to what name are they bowing and to what name are they confessing?
Does the person, the singer, the book, etc., lead me to bowing at the name of Jesus, or to idolizing a human being, a man-organized belief system, etc., etc.,
My one desire is to know Jesus, Him crucified and the power of His resurrection.
Amen, Anna! :gsmile: :gthumbsup: I will remember that! What a very good "test" (who/what is glorified?).. as you said, in 1 John 4:1, Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 "Beloved, every spirit(pneuma/breath) believe not, but prove the spirits, if of God they are, because many false prophets have gone forth to the world;" (I daresay in this modern day there are so many teachings! A good measuring rod is a good thing to have! And very necessary.)
and, 1 Thess 5:21 "prove" (or test) "all things;hold fast what is good"
also, Romans 12:2, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your
proving what [is] the will of God -- the good, and acceptable, and perfect."
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 23, 2013, 04:58:08 PM
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be sudden!
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be g r a d u a l.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be unnoticed by most of the world, just like his first coming.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be by appearances to different people at different times as they are ready.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus has already taken place centuries ago.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus has already taken place recently.
Hmmm. This might make a good topic to do a poll on. :Chinscratch:
But then again, it might open up a real can of worms! :eek:
:dunno2:
Wow! very interesting! I surely have lived a sheltered adulthood as I've not come across these (being part hermit, or hermit wannabe) I do hope I don't open a can of worms tho! :dunno: :blush: i'm not usually much for causing trouble.. ...but concerning the teaching that Jesus has come the second time.. i have to wonder when, does every eye see Him as He returns(MT 24).. and how is it that Acts 1:11 says "...Why are you men from Galilee standing here and looking up into the sky? Jesus has been taken to heaven. But he will come back
in the same way that you
have seen him go."....?
I don't subscribe to any of those schools of doctrine on the second coming.
Actually, I have not studied the second coming and eschatology enough yet to really know what I believe about it.
The condition of the sky being ripped aside like an old rag when Jesus comes tells me that we can not miss it, except maybe troglodytes.
Troglowhats?
Quote from: marie glen on April 23, 2013, 06:15:05 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 23, 2013, 04:58:08 PM
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be sudden!
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be g r a d u a l.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be unnoticed by most of the world, just like his first coming.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus will be by appearances to different people at different times as they are ready.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus has already taken place centuries ago.
Some believe the second coming of Jesus has already taken place recently.
Hmmm. This might make a good topic to do a poll on. :Chinscratch:
But then again, it might open up a real can of worms! :eek:
:dunno2:
Wow! very interesting! I surely have lived a sheltered adulthood as I've not come across these (being part hermit, or hermit wannabe) I do hope I don't open a can of worms tho! :dunno: :blush: i'm not usually much for causing trouble.. ...but concerning the teaching that Jesus has come the second time.. i have to wonder when, does every eye see Him as He returns(MT 24).. and how is it that Acts 1:11 says "...Why are you men from Galilee standing here and looking up into the sky? Jesus has been taken to heaven. But he will come back in the same way that you have seen him go."....?
Great questions and wonderful insights ! Sista M and Bro Jb
I dont think its opening up a can of worms
but opening up the womb maybe ? more insights
womb Exd 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, [both] of man and of beast
: it [is] mine.
Strong's H7358 - rechem womb
matrix innermost parts From רָחַם (H7355) to love deeply ,compassion ,mercy
Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called
holy to the Lord;)Strong's G3388 - mētra
Strong's G3384 - mētēr womb from Strong's G3384 - mētēr
1) a mother
2) metaph. the source of something, the motherland
Jesus comes as a thief in the night
but to those whom are eagerly awaiting Him He comes a second time without sin Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time
without sin unto salvation.
Luk 1:78
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby
the dayspring from on high hath visited us,To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. God is good :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 23, 2013, 10:05:50 PM
Troglowhats?
It's a fancy word for cave-dweller. Like me - whenever I go down into the local Cavern, I feel like I'm home.
:laugh:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 22, 2013, 05:26:03 PM
That's good, because if we ever say "I've got it figured out," then we have become "wise and learned" (in the sense that the Pharisees were).
Yep. The most horrific things done throughout history were done by those who were totally convinced that they were 100% absolutely correct :thumbsup: