Are All Universalists "Old Folk?"

[lomarah]

The commands have always been to protect life and foster well-being of the child..not to destroy the child.

  to foment a loving kind orderly peaceful home.

   Love never fails..but there re wicked about that have no love of God in them, that spitefully use and

abuse...and a loving Father will educate His children with a wisdom from above. 

   

Awesome.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[reFORMer]

Perhaps one reason the denominations are in decline is because they cannot accept any new ideas. After all if a group only accepts their own particular brand and slant on all things, won't that group become stale and stagnant? Well, maybe not if they have the free flowing stream of the Holy Spirit, that is! But it's the same Spirit which makes the bond of peace between those passionate about speaking to one another about the Lord and His Word.. :2c:

"...and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ..." (Ep 3⁹, KJV)  The newer versions tend to have, "The fellowship of the dispensation," based on other underlying texts.  "The administration of the secret" is the Concordant Literal rendering.  But I think "the fellowship of the mystery" says a lot.  When everything to be believed is already all marked out and what we do is well established territory of men's possession, to correct anything, open up fallow ground or uncharted territories we must have authorization from men who are over other men, with other men who in turn are over them.  It's mostly dead and functions in a lecture structure.  On the other hand, when we first know the Lord we gather together excited about what we've just found of the Spirit, or what new thing we're going to find as we share.  Our FELLOWSHIP (koinea) is of the mystery!

[firstborn888]

That's great, sound like nice people.  Unfortunately, good works and good character don't save us. 

A tree is known by it's fruit. I submit to you that Christ is manifesting Himself as much through some atheists as through some Christian". I don't know why that is hard for some to accept - I know it was very very hard for me. Why do you think that is?

I have seen this as well. In many cases some of the least loving people I have come across were Christian. It is not their "fault" - they truly don't know what they are doing. (I know from personal experience!) It is certainly not always the case and I know many loving people who call themselves christians, but I agree wholeheartedly that a tree is known by it's fruit. I think that often nonreligious people have an easier time just loving people because they aren't usually concerned with what everyone else believes. (Doctrine.) When a person is free to love regardless of what another person believes, amazing things happen.

I used to view anything which looked like good fruit but didn't have the big "J" stamped on it as false, counterfeit, self -glorifying etc etc. I even persecuted by own sweet mom for her inclusiveness and for saying things like "I am at church right now. Look down my street...now look up my street. Those people are the body of Christ, all of them. ".  :eek: Most of us know that if you are involved at all with any sort of traditional Christianity - that just doesn't fly. Basically on the religious side of Christianity loving God means adhering to certain doctrinal beliefs and saying certain words in the correct order. Of course - we don't SEE it that way at the time. The words represent something to us and we look for those same words to confirm for us that someone else is actually legitimately "okay with God".

All that said - there are a lot of really screwed up people out there and belief systems can be helpful for many. But there are a lot of people who believe all the right Christian stuff and are STILL screwed up! So - to the OP: exclusivity is a big part of the Christian world view. Only "few" be saved after all and if you don't gain something totally unique then why go through the "hardship" of living righteously and denying ourselves etc.  Young people especially have a rough time in this day and age and without the super high stakes of eternal salvation of damnation at stake - what sense does it make to not go with the flow? Why not if everyone will be okay in the end?

Of course - those of us who know the joy of real fellowship with God know that it is all the motivation necessary but to the average believer it doesn't make sense. In fact you wouldn't BELIEVE how many Christians have told me that if I was right about all ultimately being saved they would go out and start having immoral fun right now and cheat/steal etc if they thought they could get away with it. Sad - because it shows they do not value virtue on it's own merit - just to give their ego a message that they are okay with God.

So ESPECIALLY for an atheist to selflessly serve others and do no harm is as real as it gets in my opinion as they are not doing it to rack up points for the afterlife or to try and be saved from something bad happening to them. Fruit (AKA the way you actually treat people) is very very underrated in Christianity and proper belief very very overrated (in my opinion). I know a famous preacher who is heralded the world over for his mesmerizing bible speak but personally knowing his personal life (not gossip) I wouldn't give you 2 cents for his character. No - good character can't save you, but manifesting love to one another is the only true barometer there is of one's spiritual understanding. 

[mplsfitter539]

At this point I don't have much to add but I would like to point out that this is the first thread I have personally been involved in and it stayed on point and everyone has added something to it instead of taking something from it. It just confirms to me that we are together in this and we are going there together. We are part of something really big happening right now in the world. I got a good feeling!! :banana:

[jbertonbounds]

I'm at the half-century mark!
I have been enlightened to UR for a year, since I was at 49.  (7x7 for those of you who believe numbers have significance (I believe they do sometimes.))  :dsunny:

Anyway, as far as the younger generation goes, many of them from my point-of-view seem to be gravitating towards agnosticism and atheism.

This could be in large part a result of the ET "hellfire & brimstone," "turn-or-burn" gospel of fear. :eek:

I believe our world is getting ready for UR more every day!  It's so exciting!! :bgdance:

[lomarah]

Wonderful Firstborn 888!!  :thumbsup:

[BirdSong]

I'm at the half-century mark!
I have been enlightened to UR for a year, since I was at 49.  (7x7 for those of you who believe numbers have significance (I believe they do sometimes.))  :dsunny:

Anyway, as far as the younger generation goes, many of them from my point-of-view seem to be gravitating towards agnosticism and atheism.

This could be in large part a result of the ET "hellfire & brimstone," "turn-or-burn" gospel of fear. :eek:

I believe our world is getting ready for UR more every day!  It's so exciting!! :bgdance:

Happy Birthday J!   :icon_flower: :angelharp:

I also agree with what you say here. The primitive absurdity of the ET doctrine (and other mainstream doctrines) is definitely a big part of it. And as my hubby says, "If Christians don't start addressing the facts of the geological and paleontological sciences soon, the entire institutionalized system will go by the way of the baby boomers, and soon expire."

I must say that I agree with him. Most young people that are adequately educated in science want little to do with mainstream Christianity because, let's face it, their YEC claims are beyond ludicrous. Young people are sharp these days, and they don't easily fall for unscientific myths. Fortunately, God calls many of the younger people either "out of" the institutionalized system, or into His truth - bypassing the religious system altogether.

Not all who leave the church fall into atheism, even though the atheist community would like us to 'think' that is the case. They get a few ex-church members to speak for them so they can paint a picture that leads the public to believe that is what happens to ALL who leave the church. But it is only wishful thinking on their part.

I personally believe God's Spirit is currently being "poured out" significantly at this time, and I predict we will see many more younger people embracing God's love for ALL in the near future.  :declare:

[mplsfitter539]

I wish we could just hit reply instead of quote to speak more directly to someone on the same thread. Anyway I agree with so much of what is being said here. :banana:

[jbertonbounds]

...as my hubby says, "If Christians don't start addressing the facts of the geological and paleontological sciences soon, the entire institutionalized system will go by the way of the baby boomers, and soon expire."

I must say that I agree with him. Most young people that are adequately educated in science want little to do with mainstream Christianity because, let's face it, their YEC claims are beyond ludicrous. Young people are sharp these days, and they don't easily fall for unscientific myths. Fortunately, God calls many of the younger people either "out of" the institutionalized system, or into His truth - bypassing the religious system altogether.

You hit the nail right on the head! :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

I agree mps, there's been a lot of good stuff said here IMO.  I also believe we need to be aware that some things can have just enough truth in them, that if someone isn't truly grounded in sound doctrine, they might be fooled and blown around by "every wind".   IMO, all the scripture is true – but a scripture pulled out here or there, and a whole new belief system built upon it, can sometimes be missing other important things that should be factored in.

Jesus gave the commandment of love.  But He also said other things.  Paul said all things should be done "in love". 

I believe there are counterfeits.  A cubic zirconium can look just like a diamond to the naked or untrained eye.   Would you want to buy it from me at the cost of a diamond just because it looks like what you think a diamond should look like?   Test all things.  If anyone says Christ hasn't come in the flesh they are in the body anti-Christ and not of God.  I John 4:3.  I believe the scriptures teach God has reconciled Himself to man, but not all men are as yet reconciled to God.  Paul preached "be you reconciled to God!".

God said for lack of knowledge my people perish.  He also said .. I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.    I'm afraid much of our zeal sometimes is based on imagination, what we've evolved to believe – sometimes rightly, sometimes drifting away from sound doctrine IMO (I've certainly done some of it).    Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits".  I believe there's a larger context.  For instance, it also says "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart".   Which is it?  It's both.   So where's the balance, based on the whole context ?  I know this flies in the face of somes' beliefs, but I must say it.  The scriptures do say that to know Him, one must "hear of Him, be given the faith to believe on Him.  And how can they believe unless someone tells them?"  I'm not saying there's an exact man-made formula.  I believe God gives much "leeway" in terms of what we know/understand – but on the other hand, I don't believe it happens by osmosis, or just because someone appears to be a really nice person, that means they're of God.  Where's the balance here, the whole counsel?  I honestly don't have the perfect answer, other than "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". 

Pray that we all look to be solidly grounded, seek to build each other up "in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus".  Blessings.

[mplsfitter539]

Jabcat you are saying to use discernment when reading material here correct? I normally do anyway but especially in forums and the like. I agree everyone needs discernment.

[jabcat]

  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

 

:thumbsup:  if the heart is where the Lords kingdom is set up  and  you become His temple and dwells with us we  can count on His faithfulness  and will not fail

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
So many are growing in grace with a personal relationship  with the Lord though direct prayer I know of  a few very young in their  20's who have  a relationship with the Lord and have bypassed Babylon [the spiritual prison house ] Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


18:4 Then I heard another voice calling from heaven, "Come away from her, my people. Do not take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her. 

[jabcat]

 :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

rosie, some time i'd like to have a discussion about what those plagues might be - exactly what they might look like.  you know, what will people actually suffer?  let's say because someone maybe stayed totally involved in the baptist or methodist denomination, what will they miss and have the consequence of?

i felt God call me out of mainstream, and i've often thought of that verse.  but then i wonder what it's REALLY talking about, where the rubber hits the road..probably another thread...blessings

[rosered]

rosie, some time i'd like to have a discussion about what those plagues might be - exactly what they might look like.  you know, what will people actually suffer?  let's say because someone maybe stayed totally involved in the baptist or methodist denomination, what will they miss and have the consequence of?

i felt God call me out of mainstream, and i've often thought of that verse.  but then i wonder what it's REALLY talking about, where the rubber hits the road..probably another thread...blessings

  God bless your heart Bro J ,   
  Coming out of "Her "  to me is  having  faith in God completly [perfectly ]   
without faith its impossible to please God 

for me  bro , its always been the  mainstream teaches us to become   "holy before men 
not God " :(   there is a self righteouness  of perfecting the flesh , looking good  to others 
and not having the "right intent "  when doing those alms  [showing mercy and pity  charity]   
these things are supposed to be done in private and know one knows    , so many "churches "   show the very works  and  those  charities and org  like boy scouts etc and have you join in   with it , cancer  groups etc , if you really sit down and read  what Jesus says about it , its scary just how much charity is done openly without God  concidered  even in them :(

dont let your left hand know what your right hand is doing   
Matt 6 is a great start

Mat 6:1 "Watch out! Don't do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. 

[rosered]

  PS Bro J , 
I would love a good study on those plagues  :thumbsup:


Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who held the seven bowls containing the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come with me! I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 

we can see that  revealed  in Rev   15 and 16  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

interesting thoughts, thank you.  yeah, i'm curious.   :Chinscratch:

[rosered]

interesting thoughts, thank you.  yeah, i'm curious.   :Chinscratch:

ok , I started a thread on the  7 last plagues  Jab , something I never do is start threads  :dunno2: 

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[mplsfitter539]

checkin out that new thread right now

[BirdSong]

I agree mps, there's been a lot of good stuff said here IMO.  I also believe we need to be aware that some things can have just enough truth in them, that if someone isn't truly grounded in sound doctrine, they might be fooled and blown around by "every wind".   IMO, all the scripture is true – but a scripture pulled out here or there, and a whole new belief system built upon it, can sometimes be missing other important things that should be factored in.

Jesus gave the commandment of love.  But He also said other things.  Paul said all things should be done "in love". 

I believe there are counterfeits.  A cubic zirconium can look just like a diamond to the naked or untrained eye.   Would you want to buy it from me at the cost of a diamond just because it looks like what you think a diamond should look like?   Test all things.  If anyone says Christ hasn't come in the flesh they are in the body anti-Christ and not of God.  I John 4:3.  I believe the scriptures teach God has reconciled Himself to man, but not all men are as yet reconciled to God.  Paul preached "be you reconciled to God!".

God said for lack of knowledge my people perish.  He also said .. I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.    I'm afraid much of our zeal sometimes is based on imagination, what we've evolved to believe – sometimes rightly, sometimes drifting away from sound doctrine IMO (I've certainly done some of it).    Jesus said "you will know them by their fruits".  I believe there's a larger context.  For instance, it also says "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart".   Which is it?  It's both.   So where's the balance, based on the whole context ?  I know this flies in the face of somes' beliefs, but I must say it.  The scriptures do say that to know Him, one must "hear of Him, be given the faith to believe on Him.  And how can they believe unless someone tells them?"  I'm not saying there's an exact man-made formula.  I believe God gives much "leeway" in terms of what we know/understand – but on the other hand, I don't believe it happens by osmosis, or just because someone appears to be a really nice person, that means they're of God.  Where's the balance here, the whole counsel?  I honestly don't have the perfect answer, other than "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". 

Pray that we all look to be solidly grounded, seek to build each other up "in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus".  Blessings.

I have to disagree with you here my friend. God is Love. One can worry about the things "in-between" - but if one is acting "in love" all of those 'other things in-between' are covered "by default." Nit picking about "doctrines" - and whether certain doctrines are "right" or "wrong" have been stumbling blocks, and they have divided Christians for almost 2,000 years. Love (real, genuine love) IS the only doctrine. Intellectual acceptance or rejection of beliefs "about" God is not what it's all about... IMO  :2c:

1 John 4:7-9

7 "Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God;
8 he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son -- the only begotten -- hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him"



1 Corinthians 13:4-13

4 "Love is patient, love is kind. Love does not envy, love does not boast, love is not proud.
5 Love does not dishonor others, love is not self-seeking, love is not easily angered, love keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil, but love rejoices with the truth.
7 Love always protects, love always trusts, love always hopes, love always perseveres.
8 Love NEVER fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and LOVE. But the greatest of these is LOVE"



John 15:12-17

12 'This is my command, that ye love one another, according as I did love you;
13 greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;
14 ye are my friends, if ye may do whatever I command you;
15 no more do I call you servants, because the servant hath not known what his lord doth, and you I have called friends, because all things that I heard from my Father, I did make known to you.
16 Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another"

[jabcat]

What do you think about all the things Paul had to say to the church about doctrine, contending for sound doctrine, watching out for those who bring division, who teach and lead others astray, etc.?  Again - I seem to keep needing to say this  :laughing7: - I believe in love  -   but IMO, there's more in there than "love".   

[BirdSong]

What do you think about all the things Paul had to say to the church about doctrine, contending for sound doctrine, watching out for those who bring division, who teach and lead others astray, etc.?  Again - I seem to keep needing to say this  :laughing7: - I believe in love  -   but IMO, there's more in there than "love".

Jesus never expected any of His followers to be bible scholars, and intellectually understand what someone considers to be "sound doctrine." Jesus wanted His followers to understand His principles of "love each other as I have loved you" - period. Most people were illiterate anyway at that time.  Jesus came to reveal the unambiguous true nature of God - which is love. And His life, death and resurrection demonstrated that love perfectly. We are to demonstrate that same love for each other. That IS the Gospel.

[jabcat]

I believe the scriptures say the gospel is Jesus, crucified and risen again.  (I can get the reference, but to save time...)

I'm not arguing love, the commandment to love.  I "give" that to you.  Never questioned.  What I question is, that's not all there is.  Where does it say "love is all there is, throw out everything else".."period"?