All Deserve Heaven

[claypot]

Just had a thought or two..................

I'm thinkin that just by being born people deserve Heaven. Think about it. No one comes into the world thinking.........."OK, good. Now here's what I am going to do. I'm going to choose to have nasty parents, a terrible childhood, which I then think I'll choose to take drugs and get thrown out of school and then I think I'll beat my spouse and go to jail. Yeah, that's the life I am going to choose for myself!"

No sane person chooses these things. Things happen. People get molded. People are born into situations that mold them and they are born with strengths and weaknesses that mold them.

Many teach people have free will but did Hitler really choose his life? Did he plan to kill millions of people to 'save Germany'. Did he choose to live this terrible life?

Yes, we choose but we choose from the vat we are given.

Ok, so now I'm thinking people deserve Heaven. This is not any easy undertaking, this life. It is thrust upon us. Did we ask to be born into this madness? I think people are survivors and do pretty darn well with what they are given, believing in God or not. For that matter will God really blame anyone for not believing in Him? It's a miracle anyone believes in Him! If I were God I wouldn't condemn anyone for not believing in me, I would be suspicious of and wonder why people did believe.

Oh well, just my thoughts.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have said it many times that we have inherant worth because we exist.  we get twisted into all kinds of contortions believing we must find our worth in something. 

When we come to spiritual enlightenment even then people think that must happen to find worth.  Well, maybe indirectly, but it is not the spiritual enlightenment that does it,  it is realizing that we inherently have worth and we do not have to come to accepted conclusions, do certain things, become some certain type of person in order to have worth.

I'm not talking about pride as if we have some kind of superiority over anything, it's as simple as  we have worth.

[martincisneros]

I wrestle with this concept of anyone "deserve heaven."  Some would try to lay the blame of that on my Charismatic theology, but I've never experienced the burn there.  Perhaps others have.  For me, it was the good ol' abusiveness of the Hellangelists that didn't know any better that would tell us that the only thing that we deserved was Hell.  Even now, I cringed when I saw the title of this thread a moment ago.  The Holy Spirit reminded me of someone that I'm head over heels in love with (totally bananas over!) and said "is there any good thing that she doesn't deserve in your eyes??" 

Love creates that worth, whether or not anyone could successfully argue the "inherent worth" of anyone.  Reconciliation creates that "deserving."  When Stanley was in Africa looking for David Livingston and got into covenant with those tribal kings in the process of trying to find him, suddenly in the eyes of those tribal leaders there wasn't anything too good for their blood covenant brother!  A few minutes before they entered into that covenant, they might have killed him over the slightest trespass.  The split second afterwards, they were ready to go to war over him over the slightest trespass against their new blood brother.  And Galatians says, if you can expect such radical change in perspective from a mere human covenant...

Now, the Blood was because God so loved the world that He gave.  I'm not disputing that.  But in this context where the body has been broken and the blood has been shed, we could really really really screw up the worst that anyone has ever screwed up since men, angels, and anybody else started screwing up, and the Bible says that we have an Advocate with the Father that'll argue our rights, that's faithful and just to cleanse us, and He ever-liveth to argue that we deserve all that heaven has, including the throne!  God's standing there in front of each of us saying, "Everything that I have and everything that I offer and promise is because I love you.  And no matter what anyone says or does, nothing can ever separate you from My love, and you deserve absolutely everything that I have!!"

[chuckt]

author=claypot link=topic=5769.msg58207#msg58207 date=1238162546]
Just had a thought or two..................

I'm thinkin that just by being born people deserve Heaven.

the very opposite of that which is taught.

i like it  :happy3:

peace
chuckt

[NinjaWizards777]

I can agree with this in part, we dont really "choose" to be born into this life and be set in the very circumstances that shape our values/choices for good or for bad. I think recognizing things like this has all been a process of God helping me love people better than before.

but unfortunitly we still got intrapped in sin...and though he didnt HAVE to, God paid for that through Christ so that we might be saved. I dont think God allowing us to fall into it was a mistake at all...I believe our fall and his salvation was all apart of his plan to show us how much he loves us even though we are imperfect and even though we dont always choose the things of HIM.

Without that darkness we could never see the light for what it is, God in his fullness which I believe one day everyone will see. And I believe this life up until that day that God overcomes Satan and this world and "hell" is what its all about.

[chuckt]

I think recognizing things like this has all been a process of God helping me love people better than before

ME TOO!!  :thumbsup:

[claypot]

It's just that we are created and put in a created situation and then basically we have to fend for ourselves in many ways at least. We struggle, we get curious about trees, we like to experiment so we taste this and that and we get into big trouble. God, through Jesus Christ, bails us out.

Think about the story of Adam and Eve. They are created by God!!!! They have intelligence which includes curiosity. Curiosity is a beautiful thing but it has led to the deaths of more than a few people. So God tells these very intelligent and curious people to not eat something. I know I couldn't go for long without wondering why I'm not suppose to eat it. Sure obedience is good but curiosity and the ability to justify my actions and the inate desire to learn is very powerful. What was God thinking here? Is He crazy? Of course not! I'm gonna eat. I got to know!

God is not cruel but making man like he is and putting a major temptation right in front of him and then going away while saying "Oh, by the way, that tree I see you salivating over? Don't touch it! See ya later."

Might as well put a very hungry lion in the same pen as a nice juicy lamb and say to the lion "Hey, don't eat the little guy. See ya later."

You'd have to be very naive not to think the person or the lion will not eat. God is not naive.

Man has a will but in and around him are so many things that he has no choice about. These things affect his choices. If even one thing affects my choice then it is no longer free, period. I have a will and I can exercise it but it is not free.

cp

[WhiteWings]

Claypot,

Isn't "All Deserve Heaven" totally against what the Bible teaches?

"No one deserves Heaven but grace gets us all into Heaven" seems what the Bible is about.
At least that's how I view it.

[claypot]

Claypot,

Isn't "All Deserve Heaven" totally against what the Bible teaches?

"No one deserves Heaven but grace gets us all into Heaven" seems what the Bible is about.
At least that's how I view it.

It's at least against all we are taught that the Bible is about. I'm wondering. Did God really create us such selfish, no good rotten people or are we just doing what we are able to do? God created people who can make choices of their own, even choices to disobey Him and when we exercise this God given ability to choose then He comes down on us like a ton of bricks and we are the bad guys. Doesn't make much sense. God seems bigger than that somehow.

I believe we need Jesus. It's like we come from the hand of God, Jesus and Dust. The Dust gets stirred up to the point where Jesus is all but obliterated, crucified. God resurrects this Divine element in us and it puts the Dust in its proper place and we are saved, praise be to God.

How did we get so bad? We are Gods creation for goodness sake. This 'we are just rotten, terrible sinners who's hearts are black as black can be' attitute we have makes me a bit suspicious. We are His creations. We should be more careful how we describe His art work.

WW, my point is that people seem to be getting a bad shake here. People function in accordance with how they are made and their surroundings.

Why don't people deserve Heaven? Because they do naughty things? Because they don't believe in God?

Do you think that when God created people, that He was creating them ultimately for Heaven? Do you think God kind of said "OK, Person, I have created you for my pleasure. I am going to 'play' with you and you are going to get very dirty but when I'm done I will clean you up and you will come to my house to stay forever."

People deserve Heaven after all the hell of living.

Again, I am just thinking here. All your responses are very good.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

God never set any conditions for our inherant worth.

Gn 1:31 . And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

[claypot]

Amen Paul.

cp

[Doc]

One thing I've thought about for the last couple of years, is that everything that God made, He called "very good", but He didn't say it was made "perfect". I think that's where part of our misconception of our worth, even post-fall comes from. We have this idea that we were created perfect and we somehow screwed that perfection up. But that isn't what the scripture says.

[WhiteWings]

Again, I am just thinking here. All your responses are very good.

None of the above and below is arguing with your view. I see contradictions in my own understanding.
I not hidding them; there are all in this post :winkgrin:
But there can't be contradictions so I would like a way to align them.

People function in accordance with how they are made and their surroundings.

Yes. And God is part of the surrounding. Especially in the OT He isn't passive. -> God plays (later quote)

Why don't people deserve Heaven? Because they do naughty things? Because they don't believe in God?

What's the use of grace if we have a right to be in Heaven? What about the gift of life if we have a right to it. Strange gift. For me grace and gift that are about recieving something you can't claim as rightfully yours.

Do you think that when God created people, that He was creating them ultimately for Heaven? Do you think God kind of said "OK, Person, I have created you for my pleasure. I am going to 'play' with you and you are going to get very dirty but when I'm done I will clean you up and you will come to my house to stay forever."

Yes, it seems like that. God created us with some (intended) design flaws. He knew things would get wrong and all would get dirty.


The Bible clearly states all will enter Heaven/eternal life (=created for Heaven).
But still it gives a lot of rules to play by to get to get into Heaven. It also states all fall short (=no one is fit for Heaven)
Then a solution is presented. -> Jesus -> Grace

[legoman]

What is the point of life?

The mainstream church teaches that this is the point of life - we deserve Hell, but God has given us a way to get to heaven.  Therefore make the best of this life and get the most souls to heaven as we can.

But that is not the point.  The universe is not just a giant soul factory so some (or all) can "get to heaven".

Life is about gaining experience, going through trials, and learning to be righteous.  Yes, we will eventually "get to heaven", but that is not the point right now.

Peace...

[reFORMer]

We're so taught to believe in death!!!  Any moment now and we'll be going "home!"  It's difficult and painful enough here for most of us and we don't enjoy anything but fleetingly so we accept that the answer is to leave.  How can we get enough of God's life to want to stay, to get so victorious that we cant be taken out?  That is what Scripture presents as God's intention for us, to reign with Him here.

For those that have been given the Holy Spirit it is for a purpose.  We are to be changed into the image and likeness of God.  We are to be so changed that we chose the right things without needing to be told.  It's written in our hearts and minds.  That is so we bring heaven into other people's lives right here on the earth, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done:  in earth as it is in heaven."  What Moses saw in the Mountain, Bezaleel was anointed to create and ultimately Aaron received for the rest of the people of God.

The popular idea of "heaven" is unchallenged bliss.  Nobody ever seems to mention doing anything worthwhile in connection with it.  Sure, worship is worthwhile, assuming it isn't just lip-service.  So, after you say or sing sincere words of praise, what are you going to do?  What happened to technology or the arts, for instance?  It seems that the development of a correspondence with God is a qualifying in order to be authorized to demonstrate by the power of the Holy Spirit what is the nature of God by enforcing His goodness here:  enlightening, liberating, healing, enriching, fulfilling the lives of those around us.

I guess "Paradise" isn't so bad as long as you're in the temporary detour called death; but, everybody is going to be resurrected out of it, so then what?  Are we back to qualifying? or meaningful work?  Maybe we could wake up out of our religious slumber now . . .

[sparrow]

I still kinda suspect we were with God before....

I kind of see the story of Adam and Eve as everyone's story, in a way.

What if.. (and I've talked about this before so I'm repeating myself here...) but anyway..
What IF..

We really are going BACK home. "Back" as in... we were there before? With God? What if all people were once with God in a "garden of eden" and the tree of knowledge of good and evil is there.. and eventually EVERY single person manages to one day, make it over to that tree and they eat the fruit? and then they are BORN on earth to EXPERIENCE the knowledge of good and evil. (that's what earth is...the knowledge of good and evil.)

We see through the glass dimly meaning that for a season (while on earth) we do not REMEMBER our TRUE homes. (God puts the veil over our eyes.)

When we are finished with this journey...we go BACK home and then and ONLY then are we truly suited for ETERNITY.

We're all learning something as separate individuals and as a collective whole. All lives, all lessons, the billions upon billions of unique lessons learned by each person, everyone will benefit from each life. The high, the low... it doesn't matter so much.... all will benefit from EVERY SINGLE LIFE LIVED. The drug addict and the wealthy King... ALL ONE. We each learn our own lessons and everyone else will learn what WE learned through OUR experience. So, collectively we will have learned everything we need to know about good and evil by all of these billions of life experiences. This is why I think reincarnation is a huge lie. To me, it's just unnecessary. God can weave the tapestry with individual threads (each thread is a person's life) and the end result, the HUGE TAPESTRY... we will ALL be able to GAZE UPON and see the big picture AND also at the same time be seeing EACH individual THREAD. We will see and UNDERSTAND it ALL!  We are all ONE in the sense that each life lived is important and a part of the tapestry of learning! The low, and the high.... all play a part.
Collectively, we will have learned what we need to learn and we will have once and for all EXHAUSTED Evil, EXHAUSTED IT! So that, it will never, ever for all eternity ever be an issue. It will be swallowed up forever. Because we will all see it for what it is and like I said, we will have EXHAUSTED it. The world is so horrible, we all say...it's so horrible. and it is... but, it HAS to be. So that we never have to drag it out and examine it ever again. Evil will be swallowed up once it's been exhausted and played out to the bitter end. It's just the way it is. It makes complete, perfect sense to me. Life MAKES PERFECT SENSE. How are we to truly KNOW what LOVE is... without exploring the opposite of love? Knowledge of good and evil. That's what this life is....

ALL "deserve" heaven because it's our TRUE HOME! It's what we were CREATED FOR!!!

Well, just some wacky thoughts from a little crazy bird.

:icon_flower:

[claypot]

Had some scary thoughts last night while at a Chris Tomlin concert. These thoughts were clear as a bell and overwhelming to say the least.

'We got God all wrong' came into my head. It didn't come in a negative, argumentative way nor a condemning way to anyone.

What I saw in my minds eye was this.................

I yelled to God that I did not ask to be born into this cesspool. I was also not consulted as to if I wanted to live a good godly life or a pagen nasty life. I don't remember making this choice.

Here is what else came to me and it seems unrelated but is not.

I saw all the people singing and thanking God for saving them. I yelled out again in spirit that God does not want us praising Him for salvation as we think of salvation. God is embarrassaed by such praise.

What I mean is, is that God put us in this mess intentionally. He will and must get us out. I likened it to me beating someone to a bloody pulp and then taking this person to a hospital and getting the best care. Then having this person thank me non stop for saving him. No no no no no.

I do believe we are to worship and praise God but we are to do these acts for other things like Him giving us life and yes for Him saving us. He does save us from our wrongful choices yet these wrongful choices are only possible because God put us in this cesspool totally without our consent as far as we know.

What I saw last night seemed pitiful to me, not worshipful. It seemed fearful, not praise. You know "God I am so rotten, thank you for saving me." I looked around and I did not see one 'rotten' person. I saw people made by God who did not ask to be put in the position they are in and who would have chosen a very different path if given the choice of life and death and were totally in their right mind.

I ended my thoughts with this......

We got God all wrong. We are not the sh-t that we are brainwashed to think we are!

So hard to write what I really felt and heard. I'll end here for now to see if I'm resonating with anyone.

PS: I thought too that God HAS to save everyone. He has to if He is God. You don't put people in a cesspool and start them out in a very negative way and then leave them to themselves and then let them condemn themselves forever. You just don't do this if you are God!

PSS: I thought this too.........They were singing about how God broke the chains that bound them, how God is so marvelously strong and wise as to beat all powers that held them in darkness and yet I know that behind their words they are also cowering in fear because they also believe that God cannot, or worse yet, will not do this for most people! What false humility and fear. They were not praising God, they were begging God and 'stroking' God and their own selves! It was pathetic! Yet I love those people in their fear. I wanted to hold them all and tell them about God and how much they are loved and not guilty.......NOT GUILTY!!!!!

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

cp,

Here is how I see it.  I am not against what you have said and there is more than what you think in what you wrote.

To me we are not to run into buildings isolating ourselves from the world,  raising our hands and heads and dancing to make ourselves feel better.

We are to raise our hands for someone else, we are to lift our heads up and grab someone else and help them lift their head,  we are to dance to enable someone who cannot dance to know we are there to help them lift their hands and head out of the muck.

Why we are here is less important than doing what we can with what we have and cannot do anything about.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I have to refer back to what God did with me in the dream/vision taking me up into the stars where I saw "bubbles with faces" that DID know what they were coming here to be and to do, and they had joy over it and the joy of the Lord hit me over that revelation.

So I sure didn't think anything like this beforehand, so it was not self fulfilled in any way. I know we were not willing (another dream/vision) to leave that place we were in before, so His joy had to come to them, being His strength, to get them to bear the prospect of it and be happy about it.

In the other dream/vision I was given, I was anything but happy about it. I was repulsed by the very idea of having dirt (our bodies now) put on ME, who was not dirt THERE, LOL. I was on silver tables with 2 others at my side, and I was awake and they were not and I was trying to wake them up to warn them what the 2 angels were there for, ie. to put dirt bodies on us. I ended up running from them and trying to hide, so severe was my revulsion of such an idea. Then I woke up. I remembered clearly the absolute revulsion I felt for this dirt body, and that seemed such a strange idea in a way.

Four months later, He gave me to understand that we were lowered into this bondage of corruption (a type of death) NOT WILLINGLY, but the purpose of being here was to learn to BE WILLING to die to self so that HE might live. No greater love has this than any man....Blessings....

[claypot]

Thanks Paul and Card, good words.

Card, you are something.....in a good way!

I too sense that we maybe were 'asked' if we wanted to do this earth, Adam and Eve thing but of course we needed to forget for what is dying but a forgetting?

God is..................well He is!!!!!

cp

[Molly]

I have to refer back to what God did with me in the dream/vision taking me up into the stars where I saw "bubbles with faces" that DID know what they were coming here to be and to do, and they had joy over it and the joy of the Lord hit me over that revelation.

Where wast thou...

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[Doc]

:cloud9: I have to refer back to what God did with me in the dream/vision taking me up into the stars where I saw "bubbles with faces" that DID know what they were coming here to be and to do, and they had joy over it and the joy of the Lord hit me over that revelation.

So I sure didn't think anything like this beforehand, so it was not self fulfilled in any way. I know we were not willing (another dream/vision) to leave that place we were in before, so His joy had to come to them, being His strength, to get them to bear the prospect of it and be happy about it.

In the other dream/vision I was given, I was anything but happy about it. I was repulsed by the very idea of having dirt (our bodies now) put on ME, who was not dirt THERE, LOL. I was on silver tables with 2 others at my side, and I was awake and they were not and I was trying to wake them up to warn them what the 2 angels were there for, ie. to put dirt bodies on us. I ended up running from them and trying to hide, so severe was my revulsion of such an idea. Then I woke up. I remembered clearly the absolute revulsion I felt for this dirt body, and that seemed such a strange idea in a way.

Four months later, He gave me to understand that we were lowered into this bondage of corruption (a type of death) NOT WILLINGLY, but the purpose of being here was to learn to BE WILLING to die to self so that HE might live. No greater love has this than any man....Blessings....

Rom 8:20 (CLV) "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation..."

That's what this post reminded me of.

You have a unique gifting, Cardinal.  :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

Just wanted to say that I have really enjoyed everyone's recent posts.  :thumbsup:
I think we're all on similar, if not the same, page.

:icon_flower:

Feels good when we connect like this, doesn't it..?
I think so!  :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thank you CP and Doc, for the kind words. Given the day I've had today, I guess God knew I needed them! Blessings... :HeartThrob: