6 or 7 creation "days"?

[WhiteWings]

Starting Genesis 1:6, creation day 2, God creates several things. The word 'create' is translated from the Hebrew word "asah" which is usually understood as making something out of already existing materials.


The first day is about the creation of light. In this day the word 'create' isn't used. God just says there most be light and it becomes light.

It's very clear Gen 1:3-5 are part of the creation day one. But what about verses 1 and 2? Are they part of the first creation day? If they are there are 6 creation days.

But there is an another possible interpretation.

Verse 1 states God created something.
Verse 2 describes what it looks like.
Starting at verse 3 we ready about further creation activities.

Verse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.

So.....
There is nothing.
In verse 1 God creates a 'first version' of the universe out of nothing.
Verse 2 basically tells us earth created in verse 1 was unable to support life.
Verse 3 and onwards shows us the well know creation account.

[anna274]

Starting Genesis 1:6, creation day 2, God creates several things. The word 'create' is translated from the Hebrew word "asah" which is usually understood as making something out of already existing materials.


The first day is about the creation of light. In this day the word 'create' isn't used. God just says there most be light and it becomes light.

It's very clear Gen 1:3-5 are part of the creation day one. But what about verses 1 and 2? Are they part of the first creation day? If they are there are 6 creation days.

But there is an another possible interpretation.

Verse 1 states God created something.
Verse 2 describes what it looks like.
Starting at verse 3 we ready about further creation activities.

Verse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.

So.....
There is nothing.
In verse 1 God creates a 'first version' of the universe out of nothing.
Verse 2 basically tells us earth created in verse 1 was unable to support life.
Verse 3 and onwards shows us the well know creation account.

Re:  There is nothing

Currently I agree-- based on 3 Scriptures

Genesis 18:14 (AMP)
Is anything too hard or too wonderful for the Lord?  At the appointed time, when the season [for her delivery] comes around, I will return to you and Sarah shall have borne a son.


Jeremiah 32:17, 27 (AMP)

v 17   Alas, Lord God!  Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm!  There is nothing too hard or too wonderful for You--
v 27   Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is there anything too hard for Me?


Matt 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God.





Re: ..."first version"....

Currently, I do not see it as a "first version"... I see it more as establishing a pattern... first God tells us He created then He tells us "how" He created...
first He tells us that He created man in His image and likeness Gen 1 then in Gen 2 He tells us how He created/formed man...  just thinking, praying, meditating, rejoicing in our great God Who so loved that He gave His only begotten Son...

[WhiteWings]

first God tells us He created then He tells us "how" He created...

Maybe so but take a close look at the Hebrew words used.

first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something

Purely looking at bara and asah verse 1 contradicts the rest of the creation account be cause verse 1 states God created out of nothing while the other verses state He created with existing materials. But there is no contradiction if we would call verse 1 "day 0"

[rosered]

HI  WW ,
     For me I have always considered   Gen 1 as complete  and entire /perfect    and    the basic ''book of Life '''      everything created  by God was   Called into existance  though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [all things    come from and go back into  HIM ]
  Though His NAME   yet it was not given till many ages later
  nothing but LIFE  IN GEN 1  no death there  , it was very good

Jesus big clue was  this to me  '' Man shall not live by bread alone ''
  But every WORD that proceeds out of the Mouth of GOD    when teaching and  putting the adversaries in check


Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 


Mat 4:2   And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 


Mat 4:3   And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 


Mat 4:4   But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 


Gen two  is the other story where   life and than death begins 

first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something

all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]


For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 


Col 1:10   That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 


Col 1:11   Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 


Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 


Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 
Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 


Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 


Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 


Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 

The Great Light rules  :dsunny:  who is His Son , we   see &  hear &  believe in Him

[WhiteWings]

HI  WW ,
     For me I have always considered   Gen 1 as complete  and entire /perfect    and    the basic "book of Life "'      everything created  by God was   Called into existance  though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [all things    come from and go back into  HIM ]
  Though His NAME   yet it was not given till many ages later
  nothing but LIFE  IN GEN 1  no death there  , it was very good

Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.

first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something

all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]

Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.

[micah7:9]

first God tells us He created then He tells us "how" He created...

Maybe so but take a close look at the Hebrew words used.

first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something

Purely looking at bara and asah verse 1 contradicts the rest of the creation account be cause verse 1 states God created out of nothing while the other verses state He created with existing materials. But there is no contradiction if we would call verse 1 "day 0"

First, for me there is NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding of nothing, so when the Lord "bara" everything He needed for that work was there.
I, me personally have no problem then with "asha"

Verse one of Genesis has absolutely nothing to do with the 6 days creation later mentioned.
Hebrews 11:3
CLV(i) 3 By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God, so that what is being observed has not come out of what is appearing."

[rosered]

HI  WW ,
     For me I have always considered   Gen 1 as complete  and entire /perfect    and    the basic "book of Life "'      everything created  by God was   Called into existance  though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [all things    come from and go back into  HIM ]
  Though His NAME   yet it was not given till many ages later
  nothing but LIFE  IN GEN 1  no death there  , it was very good

Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.

first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something

all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]

Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.

  I believe I understand what you are saying  Toney

  6 days working and on  the 7th day He rested   and we know the  7 DAY [ FULL LIGHT]  is the Sabbath  rest   being Jesus  [Yeshua ] YAWH
Noted   its days  , not the nights /darkness ,ignorance  blindness etc ..

[WhiteWings]

First, for me there NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding, so when the Lord "bara" everything He needed for that work was there.

And He everything He needed is nothing.
Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe. God started doing His thing and that universe and things in it came into existance in verse 1.

I'm not entirely sure but I have the feeling you view connecting nothing to God's work is insulting or otherwise negative toward (the power of) God.
If so, I see it totally opposite. Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me...

[WhiteWings]

HI  WW ,
     For me I have always considered   Gen 1 as complete  and entire /perfect    and    the basic "book of Life "'      everything created  by God was   Called into existance  though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [all things    come from and go back into  HIM ]
  Though His NAME   yet it was not given till many ages later
  nothing but LIFE  IN GEN 1  no death there  , it was very good

Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.

first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something

all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]

Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.

I believe I understand what you are saying  Toney

  6 days working and on  the 7th day He rested   and we know the  7 DAY [ FULL LIGHT]  is the Sabbath  rest   being Jesus  [Yeshua ] YAWH
Noted   its days  , not the nights /darkness ,ignorance  blindness etc ..

It's not about the Sabbath day. Of course I fully agree God rested on that day. It's very cleary written.
I try to explain differently.

Step 1] God created the universe and everything in it out of nothing. One of those things is the formless and void earth.
Step 2] No activity from God for an unmentioned amount of time. Could be a second or billion years.
Step 3] God starts changing earth from void and formless to beautiful and full of life starting at verse 3.


Or explained it in yet another way.
In verse 1 the Potter created clay out of nothing.
Verse 3 and onward the Potter starts creating vessels. (day 1)

[micah7:9]

First, for me there NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding, so when the Lord "bara" everything He needed for that work was there.

And He everything He needed is nothing.
Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe. God started doing His thing and that universe and things in it came into existance in verse 1.

I'm not entirely sure but I have the feeling connecting nothing to God's work is insulting or otherwise negative toward (the power of) God.
If so, I see it totally opposite. Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me...

"Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe."
How do you know this?
Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Just what beginning? The beginning He wanted us to know about or just one of many beginnings?
Psa 136:5  To him that by understanding made the heavens; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
Pro 3:19  Jehovah by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding he established the heavens.

[rosered]

First, for me there NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding, so when the Lord "bara" everything He needed for that work was there.

And He everything He needed is nothing.
Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe. God started doing His thing and that universe and things in it came into existance in verse 1.

I'm not entirely sure but I have the feeling connecting nothing to God's work is insulting or otherwise negative toward (the power of) God.
If so, I see it totally opposite. Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me...

Re:  "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me."

I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power...

I'm still "working" on a book entitled "OUT OF LOVE, FOR HIS GLORY, GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS"

I have this somewhat crazy, out-of-the-box idea that God brought into existence His opposite (darkness, emptiness, chaos, hate, death etc. many) by creating a physical body- for His opposite (LIGHT, LIFE, LOVE etc.)    man in His own image and likeness (spirit body)   so man like God thinks, but we know that His thoughts are higher than man's thoughts....   it is not man thinks like God.... man is only capable of thinking in a physical way, loving in a physical way, etc.

AND THIS IS THE REALLY CRAZY PART... God is everything.... His opposite is nothing
God's glorious plan is to bring that "nothing" to be in Him...  He sent His only begotten Son to reconcile the differences between Spirit and physical....the Word made flesh..... came in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL flesh.... suffered, was crucified, died  .... shed physical blood so that man could receive spiritual blood (life is in the blood).... man needs a blood transfusion....  a new creation

LOVE IT !! REJOICING    :dsunny:   AMEN!!

[WhiteWings]

"Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe."
How do you know this?

If it already existed then there is no need to create it.

Just what beginning? The beginning He wanted us to know about or just one of many beginnings?

The beginning of the plan that involves mankind.
The beginning of of example angels was at a different time.

[micah7:9]

"Re:  "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me." WW
I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power..." Anna

Nothing= 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.
I'm sorry but I find creating something out of nothing( 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.) is
ridiculous.
Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Gen 1:1  In the beginning H7225  rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.


WISDOM is certainly not nothing! :dsunny:

[anna274]

"Re:  "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me." WW
I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power..." Anna

Nothing= 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.
I'm sorry but I find creating something out of nothing( 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.) is
ridiculous.
Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Gen 1:1  In the beginning H7225  rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.


WISDOM is certainly not nothing! :dsunny:

Thank you, Micah--for your many WOW's   WOW=words of wisdom  :)

[rosered]

"Re:  "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me." WW
I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power..." Anna

Nothing= 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.
I'm sorry but I find creating something out of nothing( 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.) is
ridiculous.
Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Gen 1:1  In the beginning H7225  rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Pro 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.


WISDOM is certainly not nothing! :dsunny:

Thank you, Micah--for your many WOW's   WOW=words of wisdom  :)

Amen !!! wonderful TRUTH Micah !! 

  1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

[gregoryfl]

Verse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.

Shalom WW,

I know that is the traditional understanding of that word ברא, but may I suggest that it does not mean that.
Here is one use of this very word seen among men in its concrete context:

And Joshua said unto them, `If you [are] a numerous people, go up for you to the forest, then you have prepared for you there, in the land of the Perizzite, and of the Rephaim, when mount Ephraim has been narrow for you..
(Jos 17:15 CLV)

The word 'prepared' is this word ברא, and provides a concrete example of the cutting down trees in a forest to prepare a place for habitation. This is not a creation out of nothing.

The two letter root בר, which conveys the action of cutting, is also used in the word ברית, the word most know as 'covenant'. This is an agreement, literally a joining together (ת) of two or more parties by means of cutting (בר), usually an animal, in half.

In looking at the meaning of the letters of the word to define it, I understand it to be saying 'to cut out of God', in other words, not literally of course, but as in Pauls words to the Romans 'out of him...are all things.'

I do keep in mind, as you pointed out in another of my posts, how defining the words in this way will not convince everyone, and that of course is fine with me. This is how I have been approaching every word in scripture, trying to understand them according to the letters given by YHWH himself, and letting those meanings define each word in context.

I would therefore see that verse two is speaking about the dark moon period of night, the first day of what is considered to be the 7th month in the Creator's calendar. Then, when verse three refers to the day and what transpired there, I would see it as referring to the 2nd day of the month, which would be the first day of the working week. That first day of the month, new moon day, would not be counted as part of the working week. Those 6 days he refers to as days in which he, not ברש, (bara) but that he עשה (asah) them, which is a word, as you mentioned, having to do with working on what is already there. It literally has the idea of shaping something, like clay.

If this post just confuses the issue more, please let me know so I can remove it.

Thanks,

Ronen

[micah7:9]

No confusion here and may I say to gregoryfi, well done and thank you. :dsunny:

(YLT) Gen 1:1  In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth--

[WhiteWings]

Verse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.

Shalom WW,

I know that is the traditional understanding of that word ברא, but may I suggest that it does not mean that.
Here is one use of this very word seen among men in its concrete context:

And Joshua said unto them, `If you [are] a numerous people, go up for you to the forest, then you have prepared for you there, in the land of the Perizzite, and of the Rephaim, when mount Ephraim has been narrow for you..
(Jos 17:15 CLV)

The word 'prepared' is this word ברא, and provides a concrete example of the cutting down trees in a forest to prepare a place for habitation. This is not a creation out of nothing.
The two letter root בר, which conveys the action of cutting,

So bara means cutting. That opens a whole new line of thought. Or more exactly reminds me of a pagan creation myth in which a god defeated another god (Levithan) by cutting him in 2 pieces and used one piece to create earth and the other the heavens. In other places in the Bible we see references to pagan myths (mocking and pointing out errors). Could it be that the opening verse is basically stating "I'm that supreme God that is in full control"

is also used in the word ברית, the word most know as 'covenant'. This is an agreement, literally a joining together (ת) of two or more parties by means of cutting (בר), usually an animal, in half.

That one I knew but I never noticed 'cut' being actual part of that word.

In looking at the meaning of the letters of the word to define it, I understand it to be saying 'to cut out of God', in other words, not literally of course, but as in Pauls words to the Romans 'out of him...are all things.'

I do keep in mind, as you pointed out in another of my posts, how defining the words in this way will not convince everyone, and that of course is fine with me.

In English I can see the dangers of such an approach. I don't know enough about ancient Hebrew to judge it's wrong. It was a quite limited language but otoh seems to have lots of hidden things.

I would therefore see that verse two is speaking about the dark moon period of night, the first day of what is considered to be the 7th month in the Creator's calendar. Then, when verse three refers to the day and what transpired there, I would see it as referring to the 2nd day of the month, which would be the first day of the working week. That first day of the month, new moon day, would not be counted as part of the working week. Those 6 days he refers to as days in which he, not ברש, (bara) but that he עשה (asah) them, which is a word, as you mentioned, having to do with working on what is already there. It literally has the idea of shaping something, like clay.

So the first 2 verses are cutting the clay out of the ground so to speak and the rest about forming the clay.
The first 2 verses are not part of the creation week, but a separate/extra day. Is that what you mean?

If this post just confuses the issue more, please let me know so I can remove it.

Not at all. You should post far more often.

[gregoryfl]

I am not sure whether any of those pagan myths in any way borrowed from the concrete concept of ברא, but they are very different in form than what I understand to be the truth. All of his creation was in him, in his heart. At the speaking of his word, all of the raw material making up creation came to be out from him, not literally (since he exists everywhere and is in all things) but in the sense that he (as the sages of old teach) withdrew himself so that creation could be seen as that which is visible, coming from what is not seen. This is described by Elohim as ברא, as recorded in Genesis 1:1.

The first 2 verses are not part of the creation week, but a separate/extra day. Is that what you mean?

Yes. The first two verses (in particular verse 2) I believe is referring to the first day of the month, new moon (dark moon) day. This was its own day, not counted as either a shabbat nor any of the 6 working days. Here is how it would appear in calendar form:

1st day of month (darkness over the face of the deep, what is called new moon day, marking the beginning of each month, neither a work day nor a shabbat)
2nd day of month, first day of work week (light)
3rd day of month, second day of work week (expanse)
4th day of month, third day of work week (land and plants)
5th day of month, fourth day of work week (lights appointed)
6th day of month, fifth day of work week (sea and air creatures)
7th day of month, sixth day of work week (land animals and man, completion of creation)
8th day of month, shabbat (God ceased from his creative work)

This is how I understand it.

Ronen

[Lazarus Short]

A side note:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

OR

Gen 1:1  In the beginning [time] God created [energy] the heavens [space] and the earth [matter].

[sheila]

 I realized the association with cut/covenant..Abraham cutting in two and a smoking lamp passing between the peices.

   Gen 15;10  and the correlation of circumcision[cut] with covenant...and a heart 'cut'=circumcize your hearts.

   the sword that 'cuts' that comes from His mouth..that both seperates and realigns into wholeness.

  a time and purpose for everything under heaven..a time to cast away..and a time to gather.

[Lazarus Short]

...a time to rend, and a time to sew.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:    yeah!  that's what I meant!

[marie glen]

hi! I'm not seein' it  :Peace2: My Strong's concordance says "bara" (#1254) is "to create, cut, select"

It's been my opinion He created all things not out of nothing (which yes would show extreme power) but all things out of Himself..

and Jesus as "firstborn of creation" and as"the onLy begotten" (straight out) of God.. Is the only one straight out from Him, thus shares His essence and substance, and thus is referred to as "God" though (not the Father, the Son, meaning 2)

And then all other things were created in Jesus..and are being gathered back into Jesus, after this proving of good from evil, which is also life from death, has run its course and been proven

I believe He created each day... an evening and a morning, as a day,

And, Genesis 2:2 - and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. [Young's Literal Translation (YLT)]

..and the 2nd account of creation as said also above, clarifies or goes into detail.. is an insert, like we might find in a magazine..or history book..

     :girlheart:

[sheila]

 perhaps He may 'cut' little portions of Himself..in order to create,since there is 'nothing' but Him.........

     Adam-rib removed-woman formed...?