Starting Genesis 1:6, creation day 2, God creates several things. The word 'create' is translated from the Hebrew word "asah" which is usually understood as making something out of already existing materials.
The first day is about the creation of light. In this day the word 'create' isn't used. God just says there most be light and it becomes light.
It's very clear Gen 1:3-5 are part of the creation day one. But what about verses 1 and 2? Are they part of the first creation day? If they are there are 6 creation days.
But there is an another possible interpretation.
Verse 1 states God created something.
Verse 2 describes what it looks like.
Starting at verse 3 we ready about further creation activities.
Verse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.
So.....
There is nothing.
In verse 1 God creates a 'first version' of the universe out of nothing.
Verse 2 basically tells us earth created in verse 1 was unable to support life.
Verse 3 and onwards shows us the well know creation account.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2014, 12:54:59 PM
Starting Genesis 1:6, creation day 2, God creates several things. The word 'create' is translated from the Hebrew word "asah" which is usually understood as making something out of already existing materials.
The first day is about the creation of light. In this day the word 'create' isn't used. God just says there most be light and it becomes light.
It's very clear Gen 1:3-5 are part of the creation day one. But what about verses 1 and 2? Are they part of the first creation day? If they are there are 6 creation days.
But there is an another possible interpretation.
Verse 1 states God created something.
Verse 2 describes what it looks like.
Starting at verse 3 we ready about further creation activities.
Verse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.
So.....
There is nothing.
In verse 1 God creates a 'first version' of the universe out of nothing.
Verse 2 basically tells us earth created in verse 1 was unable to support life.
Verse 3 and onwards shows us the well know creation account.
Re: There is nothing
Currently I agree-- based on 3 Scriptures
Genesis 18:14 (AMP)
Is anything too hard or too wonderful for the Lord? At the appointed time, when the season [for her delivery] comes around, I will return to you and Sarah shall have borne a son.
Jeremiah 32:17, 27 (AMP)
v 17 Alas, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! There is nothing too hard or too wonderful for You--
v 27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is there anything too hard for Me?
Matt 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God.
Re: ..."first version"....
Currently, I do not see it as a "first version"... I see it more as establishing a pattern... first God tells us He created then He tells us "how" He created...
first He tells us that He created man in His image and likeness Gen 1 then in Gen 2 He tells us how He created/formed man... just thinking, praying, meditating, rejoicing in our great God Who so loved that He gave His only begotten Son...
Quote from: anna274 on March 16, 2014, 03:25:08 PMfirst God tells us He created then He tells us "how" He created...
Maybe so but take a close look at the Hebrew words used.
first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something
Purely looking at bara and asah verse 1 contradicts the rest of the creation account be cause verse 1 states God created out of nothing while the other verses state He created with existing materials. But there is no contradiction if we would call verse 1 "day 0"
HI WW ,
For me I have always considered Gen 1 as complete and entire /perfect and the basic ''book of Life ''' everything created by God was Called into existance though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [
all things come from and go back into HIM ]
Though His NAME yet it was not given till many ages later
nothing but LIFE IN GEN 1 no death there , it was very good
Jesus big clue was this to me '' Man shall not live by bread alone ''
But
every WORD that proceeds out of the Mouth of GOD when teaching and putting the adversaries in check
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Gen two is the other story where life and than death begins
Quotefirst God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something
all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with
the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and
increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the
inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
The Great Light rules :dsunny: who is His Son , we see & hear &
believe in Him
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2014, 05:36:55 PM
HI WW ,
For me I have always considered Gen 1 as complete and entire /perfect and the basic "book of Life "' everything created by God was Called into existance though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [all things come from and go back into HIM ]
Though His NAME yet it was not given till many ages later
nothing but LIFE IN GEN 1 no death there , it was very good
Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.
QuoteQuotefirst God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something
all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]
Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2014, 04:55:54 PM
Quote from: anna274 on March 16, 2014, 03:25:08 PMfirst God tells us He created then He tells us "how" He created...
Maybe so but take a close look at the Hebrew words used.
first God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something
Purely looking at bara and asah verse 1 contradicts the rest of the creation account be cause verse 1 states God created out of nothing while the other verses state He created with existing materials. But there is no contradiction if we would call verse 1 "day 0"
First, for me there is NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding of nothing, so when the Lord "bara"
everything He needed for that work was there.
I, me personally have no problem then with "asha"
Verse one of Genesis has absolutely nothing to do with the 6 days creation later mentioned.
Hebrews 11:3
CLV(i) 3 By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God,
so that what is being observed has not come out of what is appearing."
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2014, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2014, 05:36:55 PM
HI WW ,
For me I have always considered Gen 1 as complete and entire /perfect and the basic "book of Life "' everything created by God was Called into existance though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [all things come from and go back into HIM ]
Though His NAME yet it was not given till many ages later
nothing but LIFE IN GEN 1 no death there , it was very good
Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.
QuoteQuotefirst God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something
all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]
Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.
I believe I understand what you are saying Toney
6 days working and on the 7th day He rested and we know the 7 DAY [ FULL LIGHT] is the Sabbath rest being Jesus [Yeshua ] YAWH
Noted its days , not the nights /darkness ,ignorance blindness etc ..
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 16, 2014, 06:00:44 PM
First, for me there NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding, so when the Lord "bara" everything He needed for that work was there.
And He everything He needed is nothing.
Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe. God started doing His thing and that universe and things in it came into existance in verse 1.
I'm not entirely sure but I have the feeling you view connecting nothing to God's work is insulting or otherwise negative toward (the power of) God.
If so, I see it totally opposite. Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me...
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2014, 06:01:45 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2014, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2014, 05:36:55 PM
HI WW ,
For me I have always considered Gen 1 as complete and entire /perfect and the basic "book of Life "' everything created by God was Called into existance though JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD [all things come from and go back into HIM ]
Though His NAME yet it was not given till many ages later
nothing but LIFE IN GEN 1 no death there , it was very good
Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.
QuoteQuotefirst God tells us He created ==> Bara = out of nothing
then He tells us "how" He created... ==> Asah = out of something
all things created though that Light and knowledge of HIM [HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ]
Agreed, but none of that changes if the number of creation days isn't 6.
I believe I understand what you are saying Toney
6 days working and on the 7th day He rested and we know the 7 DAY [ FULL LIGHT] is the Sabbath rest being Jesus [Yeshua ] YAWH
Noted its days , not the nights /darkness ,ignorance blindness etc ..
It's not about the Sabbath day. Of course I fully agree God rested on that day. It's very cleary written.
I try to explain differently.
Step 1] God created the universe and everything in it out of nothing. One of those things is the formless and void earth.
Step 2] No activity from God for an unmentioned amount of time. Could be a second or billion years.
Step 3] God starts changing earth from void and formless to beautiful and full of life starting at verse 3.
Or explained it in yet another way.
In verse 1 the Potter created clay out of nothing.
Verse 3 and onward the Potter starts creating vessels. (day 1)
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2014, 06:23:28 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 16, 2014, 06:00:44 PM
First, for me there NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding, so when the Lord "bara" everything He needed for that work was there.
And He everything He needed is nothing.
Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe. God started doing His thing and that universe and things in it came into existance in verse 1.
I'm not entirely sure but I have the feeling connecting nothing to God's work is insulting or otherwise negative toward (the power of) God.
If so, I see it totally opposite. Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me...
"Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe."
How do you know this?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Just what beginning? The beginning He wanted us to know about or just one of many beginnings?
Psa 136:5 To him that by understanding made the heavens; For his lovingkindness endureth for ever:
Pro 3:19 Jehovah by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding he established the heavens.
Quote from: anna274 on March 16, 2014, 07:04:23 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2014, 06:23:28 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 16, 2014, 06:00:44 PM
First, for me there NO "nothing" in the work of the Lord, we-man have our understanding of nothing, but it is not the Lord's understanding, so when the Lord "bara" everything He needed for that work was there.
And He everything He needed is nothing.
Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe. God started doing His thing and that universe and things in it came into existance in verse 1.
I'm not entirely sure but I have the feeling connecting nothing to God's work is insulting or otherwise negative toward (the power of) God.
If so, I see it totally opposite. Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me...
Re: "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me."
I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power...
I'm still "working" on a book entitled "OUT OF LOVE, FOR HIS GLORY, GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS"
I have this somewhat crazy, out-of-the-box idea that God brought into existence His opposite (darkness, emptiness, chaos, hate, death etc. many) by creating a physical body- for His opposite (LIGHT, LIFE, LOVE etc.) man in His own image and likeness (spirit body) so man like God thinks, but we know that His thoughts are higher than man's thoughts.... it is not man thinks like God.... man is only capable of thinking in a physical way, loving in a physical way, etc.
AND THIS IS THE REALLY CRAZY PART... God is everything.... His opposite is nothing
God's glorious plan is to bring that "nothing" to be in Him... He sent His only begotten Son to reconcile the differences between Spirit and physical....the Word made flesh..... came in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL flesh.... suffered, was crucified, died .... shed physical blood so that man could receive spiritual blood (life is in the blood).... man needs a blood transfusion.... a new creation
LOVE IT !! REJOICING :dsunny: AMEN!!
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 16, 2014, 07:03:52 PM
"Just before verse 1 there was nothing. No universe. Not even an empty universe."
How do you know this?
If it already existed then there is no need to create it.
QuoteJust what beginning? The beginning He wanted us to know about or just one of many beginnings?
The beginning of the plan that involves mankind.
The beginning of of example angels was at a different time.
"Re: "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me." WW
I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power..." Anna
Nothing= 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.
I'm sorry but I find creating something out of nothing( 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.) is
ridiculous.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
WISDOM is certainly not nothing! :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 16, 2014, 07:27:39 PM
"Re: "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me." WW
I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power..." Anna
Nothing= 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.
I'm sorry but I find creating something out of nothing( 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.) is
ridiculous.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
WISDOM is certainly not nothing! :dsunny:
Thank you, Micah--for your many WOW's WOW=words of wisdom :)
Quote from: anna274 on March 16, 2014, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 16, 2014, 07:27:39 PM
"Re: "Creating something out of nothing is the ultimate display of power for me." WW
I agree...but I would add "...ultimate display of LOVE and power..." Anna
Nothing= 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.
I'm sorry but I find creating something out of nothing( 1a)no thing, not anything b) no part, element, trace. 2) nonexistence; nothingness. 3) a thing that does not exist.) is
ridiculous.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; rê'shı̂yth the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
WISDOM is certainly not nothing! :dsunny:
Thank you, Micah--for your many WOW's WOW=words of wisdom :)
Amen !!! wonderful TRUTH Micah !!
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Co 2:5 That
your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men,
but in the power of God.
Rev 7:12
Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
QuoteVerse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.
Shalom WW,
I know that is the traditional understanding of that word ברא, but may I suggest that it does not mean that.
Here is one use of this very word seen among men in its concrete context:
And Joshua said unto them, `If you [are] a numerous people, go up for you to the forest, then you have
prepared for you there, in the land of the Perizzite, and of the Rephaim, when mount Ephraim has been narrow for you..
(Jos 17:15 CLV)
The word 'prepared' is this word ברא, and provides a concrete example of the cutting down trees in a forest to prepare a place for habitation. This is not a creation out of nothing.
The two letter root בר, which conveys the action of cutting, is also used in the word ברית, the word most know as 'covenant'. This is an agreement, literally a joining together (ת) of two or more parties by means of cutting (בר), usually an animal, in half.
In looking at the meaning of the letters of the word to define it, I understand it to be saying 'to cut out of God', in other words, not literally of course, but as in Pauls words to the Romans 'out of him...are all things.'
I do keep in mind, as you pointed out in another of my posts, how defining the words in this way will not convince everyone, and that of course is fine with me. This is how I have been approaching every word in scripture, trying to understand them according to the letters given by YHWH himself, and letting those meanings define each word in context.
I would therefore see that verse two is speaking about the dark moon period of night, the first day of what is considered to be the 7th month in the Creator's calendar. Then, when verse three refers to the day and what transpired there, I would see it as referring to the 2nd day of the month, which would be the first day of the working week. That first day of the month, new moon day, would not be counted as part of the working week. Those 6 days he refers to as days in which he, not ברש, (bara) but that he עשה (asah) them, which is a word, as you mentioned, having to do with working on what is already there. It literally has the idea of shaping something, like clay.
If this post just confuses the issue more, please let me know so I can remove it.
Thanks,
Ronen
No confusion here and may I say to gregoryfi, well done and thank you. :dsunny:
(YLT) Gen 1:1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth--
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 16, 2014, 08:16:52 PM
QuoteVerse 1 uses the Hebrew word 'bara' which means create out out of nothing.
Shalom WW,
I know that is the traditional understanding of that word ברא, but may I suggest that it does not mean that.
Here is one use of this very word seen among men in its concrete context:
And Joshua said unto them, `If you [are] a numerous people, go up for you to the forest, then you have prepared for you there, in the land of the Perizzite, and of the Rephaim, when mount Ephraim has been narrow for you..
(Jos 17:15 CLV)
The word 'prepared' is this word ברא, and provides a concrete example of the cutting down trees in a forest to prepare a place for habitation. This is not a creation out of nothing.
The two letter root בר, which conveys the action of cutting,
So bara means cutting. That opens a whole new line of thought. Or more exactly reminds me of a pagan creation myth in which a god defeated another god (Levithan) by cutting him in 2 pieces and used one piece to create earth and the other the heavens. In other places in the Bible we see references to pagan myths (mocking and pointing out errors). Could it be that the opening verse is basically stating "I'm that supreme God that is in full control"
Quoteis also used in the word ברית, the word most know as 'covenant'. This is an agreement, literally a joining together (ת) of two or more parties by means of cutting (בר), usually an animal, in half.
That one I knew but I never noticed 'cut' being actual part of that word.
QuoteIn looking at the meaning of the letters of the word to define it, I understand it to be saying 'to cut out of God', in other words, not literally of course, but as in Pauls words to the Romans 'out of him...are all things.'
I do keep in mind, as you pointed out in another of my posts, how defining the words in this way will not convince everyone, and that of course is fine with me.
In English I can see the dangers of such an approach. I don't know enough about ancient Hebrew to judge it's wrong. It was a quite limited language but otoh seems to have lots of hidden things.
QuoteI would therefore see that verse two is speaking about the dark moon period of night, the first day of what is considered to be the 7th month in the Creator's calendar. Then, when verse three refers to the day and what transpired there, I would see it as referring to the 2nd day of the month, which would be the first day of the working week. That first day of the month, new moon day, would not be counted as part of the working week. Those 6 days he refers to as days in which he, not ברש, (bara) but that he עשה (asah) them, which is a word, as you mentioned, having to do with working on what is already there. It literally has the idea of shaping something, like clay.
So the first 2 verses are cutting the clay out of the ground so to speak and the rest about forming the clay.
The first 2 verses are not part of the creation week, but a separate/extra day. Is that what you mean?
QuoteIf this post just confuses the issue more, please let me know so I can remove it.
Not at all. You should post far more often.
I am not sure whether any of those pagan myths in any way borrowed from the concrete concept of ברא, but they are very different in form than what I understand to be the truth. All of his creation was in him, in his heart. At the speaking of his word, all of the raw material making up creation came to be out from him, not literally (since he exists everywhere and is in all things) but in the sense that he (as the sages of old teach) withdrew himself so that creation could be seen as that which is visible, coming from what is not seen. This is described by Elohim as ברא, as recorded in Genesis 1:1.
QuoteThe first 2 verses are not part of the creation week, but a separate/extra day. Is that what you mean?
Yes. The first two verses (in particular verse 2) I believe is referring to the first day of the month, new moon (dark moon) day. This was its own day, not counted as either a shabbat nor any of the 6 working days. Here is how it would appear in calendar form:
1st day of month (darkness over the face of the deep, what is called new moon day, marking the beginning of each month, neither a work day nor a shabbat)
2nd day of month, first day of work week (light)
3rd day of month, second day of work week (expanse)
4th day of month, third day of work week (land and plants)
5th day of month, fourth day of work week (lights appointed)
6th day of month, fifth day of work week (sea and air creatures)
7th day of month, sixth day of work week (land animals and man, completion of creation)
8th day of month, shabbat (God ceased from his creative work)
This is how I understand it.
Ronen
A side note:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
OR
Gen 1:1 In the beginning [time] God created [energy] the heavens [space] and the earth [matter].
I realized the association with cut/covenant..Abraham cutting in two and a smoking lamp passing between the peices.
Gen 15;10 and the correlation of circumcision[cut] with covenant...and a heart 'cut'=circumcize your hearts.
the sword that 'cuts' that comes from His mouth..that both seperates and realigns into wholeness.
a time and purpose for everything under heaven..a time to cast away..and a time to gather.
...a time to rend, and a time to sew.
:thumbsup: yeah! that's what I meant!
hi! I'm not seein' it :Peace2: My Strong's concordance says "bara" (#1254) is "to create, cut, select"
It's been my opinion He created all things not out of nothing (which yes would show extreme power) but all things out of Himself..
and Jesus as "firstborn of creation" and as"the onLy begotten" (straight out) of God.. Is the only one straight out from Him, thus shares His essence and substance, and thus is referred to as "God" though (not the Father, the Son, meaning 2)
And then all other things were created in Jesus..and are being gathered back into Jesus, after this proving of good from evil, which is also life from death, has run its course and been proven
I believe He created each day... an evening and a morning, as a day,
And, Genesis 2:2 - and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. [Young's Literal Translation (YLT)]
..and the 2nd account of creation as said also above, clarifies or goes into detail.. is an insert, like we might find in a magazine..or history book..
:girlheart:
perhaps He may 'cut' little portions of Himself..in order to create,since there is 'nothing' but Him.........
Adam-rib removed-woman formed...?
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 17, 2014, 12:02:29 PM
I am not sure whether any of those pagan myths in any way borrowed from the concrete concept of ברא, but they are very different in form than what I understand to be the truth.
Likely I'm was not clear enough. I'm not saying the pagan myths are true. Moses started writing quite late in history. Other civilizations already wrote down their myths and where very much accepted. So it looks like the Bible sometimes uses those myth to explain something. Levithan, Hades, Appolian etc are used in the Bible. All highly pagan concepts. But that does not mean the Bible says those stories are true. On the contrary they are even mocked. Satan tries to steal God's glory by retelling God's works and put himself in the center. As I wrote the first verse sounds very much like a pagan creating myth if I replace created by cutting as you suggested.
:2c:
That's all I was trying to say. I hope I'm a bit more clear now. I have lots of stuff on the subject, including advanced Hebrew analysis. (not by me). If you need more info PM or email me.
QuoteQuoteThe first 2 verses are not part of the creation week, but a separate/extra day. Is that what you mean?
Yes. The first two verses (in particular verse 2) I believe is referring to the first day of the month, new moon (dark moon) day. This was its own day, not counted as either a shabbat nor any of the 6 working days. Here is how it would appear in calendar form:
1st day of month (darkness over the face of the deep, what is called new moon day, marking the beginning of each month, neither a work day nor a shabbat)
2nd day of month, first day of work week (light)
3rd day of month, second day of work week (expanse)
4th day of month, third day of work week (land and plants)
5th day of month, fourth day of work week (lights appointed)
6th day of month, fifth day of work week (sea and air creatures)
7th day of month, sixth day of work week (land animals and man, completion of creation)
8th day of month, shabbat (God ceased from his creative work)
This is how I understand it.
So while I was wrong about "out of nothing" the creation week was 8 days (starting with day 0)
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 16, 2014, 08:16:52 PM
I would therefore see that verse two is speaking about the dark moon period of night, the first day of what is considered to be the 7th month in the Creator's calendar. Then, when verse three refers to the day and what transpired there, I would see it as referring to the 2nd day of the month, which would be the first day of the working week.
For ease of discussion let's call verse 1-2, Day-0.
If Day-0 is a Sabbath day God would have worked on Sabbath.
Is every dark moon day Sabbath day or was Day-0 a regular Sabbath day.
I've read a view that every full moon was a Sabbath day. Even if it was not on the weekly Sabbath.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 17, 2014, 02:41:23 PM
A side note:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
OR
Gen 1:1 In the beginning [time] God created [energy] the heavens [space] and the earth [matter].
LS, I was thinking exactly the same thing while writing my first post but didn't want to start a old vs young earth debate from 'the beginning'
A Christian joke about the Big Bang is: "There was nothing and it exploded."
But in a way it's exactly what God did if we assume bara means 'out of nothing. Just exploring all options Ronen :gimmefive:
God 'exploded' the universe into existence.
Scroll down and look at the picture. If you like it you likely like the whole site.
http://www.abarim-publications.com/GenesisStandardModel.html#.Uyc7IfldWUY
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2014, 06:00:49 PM
hi! I'm not seein' it :Peace2: My Strong's concordance says "bara" (#1254) is "to create, cut, select"
It's been my opinion He created all things not out of nothing (which yes would show extreme power)
One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.
The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"
But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."
The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"
:laugh:
Quote from: sheila on March 17, 2014, 06:39:04 PM
perhaps He may 'cut' little portions of Himself..in order to create,since there is 'nothing' but Him.........
Adam-rib removed-woman formed...?
The breath of life is a part of God too. Long, long ago God existed totally alone. There was nothing besides Him. So everything there is somehow traces back to God. Even the plastic of the keyboard I'm typing on right now.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 17, 2014, 07:47:58 PMLikely I'm was not clear enough. I'm not saying the pagan myths are true.
No, you were clear. I didn't think you believed those myths to be true. :) I was just adding to what you were sharing. I was just saying I did not know if the particular myth you were relating came out of the meaning of bara or not. :)
QuoteSo while I was wrong about "out of nothing" the creation week was 8 days (starting with day 0)
If, when one says, 'out of nothing', they mean, 'out of what is not seen', then I would agree. If they mean, 'not out of another thing' I would also agree, since God is not a 'thing'. If they mean nothing as in 'non existence', then I would have to disagree, since all things came out of God, by means of his word, and God and his Word do exist and in fact YHWH defines existence itself (this name containing the root word for 'exist').
I see 6 working days, wherein he shaped (asah) during days 1 through 6 what he originally created (bara) back in verse 1. I guess if you include the original matter created in verse 1 and seen in verse 2, then there would be 7 periods from the top (berashiyt) in which it all took place.
QuoteFor ease of discussion let's call verse 1-2, Day-0.
If Day-0 is a Sabbath day God would have worked on Sabbath.
Is every dark moon day Sabbath day or was Day-0 a regular Sabbath day.
I've read a view that every full moon was a Sabbath day. Even if it was not on the weekly Sabbath.
Perhaps there are those who believe that New Moon day is a Sabbath, but I believe the scriptures teach it to be a separate type of day...that there are 3 types of days in Scripture. Work day, New Moon day, and Shabbat day. Each month starts with New moon day, then 6 working days, then a shabbat, followed by another 6 working days and shabbat, until the end of the month. So your Day-0 would be, not a Shabbat, but a New Moon day, when God erected the physical creation, ready to shape it the following 6 working days, then to cease from it on the first shabbat, setting the pattern for man.
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: The gate of the inner court that looks toward the east shall be shut the
six working days; but on the
Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the
day of the new moon it shall be opened.
(Eze 46:1 WEB (R))
No creative work was to be on Shabbat, but the tabernacle was put up (creative work) on new moon day. By the way, the erecting of the tabernacle and the 7 day period leading to the 8th day of the month when the priesthood and services were inaugurated is related to Genesis 1 and 2.
Ronen
Quote from: sheila on March 17, 2014, 06:39:04 PM
perhaps He may 'cut' little portions of Himself..in order to create,since there is 'nothing' but Him.........
Adam-rib removed-woman formed...?
Yes Sheila :)
That is how I understand it from the word used, although the cutting would be just a descriptive term used to describe the process, something we can understand. I do not believe it was a literal cutting of himself, like there are bits of God out there everywhere. (I know you do not believe that also) God is in all things, but is not those things, just as Adam was in his woman (a part of him taken to form her) but he is not his woman.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 17, 2014, 08:50:31 PM
QuoteFor ease of discussion let's call verse 1-2, Day-0.
If Day-0 is a Sabbath day God would have worked on Sabbath.
Is every dark moon day Sabbath day or was Day-0 a regular Sabbath day.
I've read a view that every full moon was a Sabbath day. Even if it was not on the weekly Sabbath.
Perhaps there are those who believe that New Moon day is a Sabbath, but I believe the scriptures teach it to be a separate type of day...that there are 3 types of days in Scripture. Work day, New Moon day, and Shabbat day. Each month starts with New moon day, then 6 working days, then a shabbat, followed by another 6 working days and shabbat, until the end of the month.
If I understood you correctly I see some problems. Sometimes there are 14 days between Sabbaths because some weeks have no Sabbath. Making New moon day a Sabbath only solves the problem for 28 day months because it would cause 2 sabbath days in a row on 29 day months.
:dontknow:
01 New Moon Day
02 Sunday
03 Monday
04 Tuesday
05 Wednesday
06 Thursday
07 Friday
08 Saturday
09 Sunday
10 Monday
11 Tuesday
12 Wednesday
13 Thursday
14 Friday
15 Saturday
16 Sunday
17 Monday
18 Tuesday
19 Wednesday
20 Thursday
21 Friday
22 Saturday
23 Sunday - Day 1
24 Monday - Day 2
25 Tuesday - Day 3
26 Wednesday - Day 4
27 Thursday - Day 5
28 Friday - Day 6
Missing Sabbath day
01 New Moon Day - Day 7
02 Sunday - Day 8
03 Monday - Day 9
04 Tuesday - Day 10
05 Wednesday - Day 11
06 Thursday - Day 12
07 Friday - Day 13
08 Saturday - Day 14 --> Previous Sabbath was 14 days ago.
Just found this site: http://lunarsabbath.info/index.html
I had the same objection at one time. I will reply to your post WW if you would like, but I do not want to go off on another subject from your original post.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 17, 2014, 08:20:31 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 17, 2014, 06:00:49 PM
hi! I'm not seein' it :Peace2: My Strong's concordance says "bara" (#1254) is "to create, cut, select"
It's been my opinion He created all things not out of nothing (which yes would show extreme power)
One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.
The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"
But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."
The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"
:laugh:
That's cute! :laughing7: :laughing7: I like it! :smile:
Yes! That has been my completely favourite joke for years. It says so much.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 17, 2014, 07:47:58 PM
Likely I'm was not clear enough. I'm not saying the pagan myths are true. Moses started writing quite late in history. Other civilizations already wrote down their myths and where very much accepted. So it looks like the Bible sometimes uses those myth to explain something. Levithan, Hades, Appolian etc are used in the Bible. All highly pagan concepts. But that does not mean the Bible says those stories are true. On the contrary they are even mocked. Satan tries to steal God's glory by retelling God's works and put himself in the center. As I wrote the first verse sounds very much like a pagan creating myth if I replace created by cutting as you suggested.
:2c:
:Chinscratch: I've had the tendency to assume the pagan versions lend proof to them.. even with the outrageous parts, like cyclops or what not..
...after ppl spread away from Babel Tower, and their languages were divided, that they took history with them, so the handed down accounts of creation.. the flood.. came to be handed down in all the lands in the various languages..
Moses, however, when he wrote the account down.. the handed down memory in his tribes, that is, was "inspired by the HS" as to what to write.. whereas Gilgamesh, for instance in his version of the handed down fuzzy memory of the flood, wasn't inspired by the HS, but by the handed down versions, which we know how that pans out with exaggerations, and the like.. Two witnesses can give accounts, and if one testifies later than the other, it doesn't mean he copied the first.. but both were the witnesses memory.. "scoffers" like to make the plagiarism claim as one of their proofs against God.. (but all those are easily answered:)
Take Eve who Adam called "the mother of us all"... all lands have a myth/legend of a mother goddess.. and do you know the oldest artifacts found of these 'mother goddesses' are of a rather heavy lady? only later did they develop into versions like Diana, or Artemis (was that the name? been a while since I studied that) the one of Babylon.. not IsIs.. that's Egypt wasn't it?
So, in my own weird mind, i've wondered if perhaps Eve over her life span became a rather big lady, and if the 'mother goddess' wasn't fuzzy memories of Eve (also) taken into all lands from the dispersion from Tower Babel.. :smile: :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 17, 2014, 10:57:32 PM
I had the same objection at one time. I will reply to your post WW if you would like, but I do not want to go off on another subject from your original post.
Please share Ronen. It's not really off-topic because it relates to a (fresh) view what verse 1 is about.
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2014, 01:10:20 AM
:Chinscratch: I've had the tendency to assume the pagan versions lend proof to them.. even with the outrageous parts, like cyclops or what not..
Greek mythology has the titans. Titans are giants which are half man and half god. Nephlim where giants (I think Goliath was a Neplim) and half human half angel. So maybe that's the origin of the titans mythology?
Quote...after ppl spread away from Babel Tower, and their languages were divided, that they took history with them, so the handed down accounts of creation.. the flood.. came to be handed down in all the lands in the various languages..
It also seems a fact cultures just take gods from other cultures change a few names and a few other things. The Roman gods mostly are renamed Greek god. In fact some scholar claim that all religions, except the Christian/Jewish, traces back to the wife of Nimrod who created the first full blown anti God religion.
QuoteMoses, however, when he wrote the account down.. the handed down memory in his tribes, that is, was "inspired by the HS" as to what to write.. whereas Gilgamesh, for instance in his version of the handed down fuzzy memory of the flood, wasn't inspired by the HS, but by the handed down versions, which we know how that pans out with exaggerations, and the like..
I'm not trying to say Moses or any other Bible writer got things messed up. I'm saying two things:
a] Satan inspired pagan priests to write all sort of things that the true God did. Including creation stories. But obviously satan never gave credit to God and replaces some names and added some other twists. Because of that the stories have a lot of things in common. That doesn't make God less powerful. It merely shows satan is good at distorting facts.
b] Many people that came to God lived in pagan nations and knew a lot about pagan stuff.
But Abraham had grown up in a pagan land. Even his family were pagans, worshipers of many gods. ..... (Joshua 24:2).
So when inspiring Moses God had 2 options. Explain everything over again or once in a while use a pagan word/concept because all knew about it. Or even mock those myth. Gen 1:1 possibly is an example of that. A creation myth predating Moses by many centuries is about two gods fighting for control. The supreme god, which has a different name in every culture, won and cut the opposing god, Levithan (the voilent sea) in 2 parts and fashioned earg and heaven out of it. So verse 1 my say: I the God called Yaweh am the supreme God that cutted down all that opposed me. Job also mentions Levithan. Again not to declare the Levithan myth as a fact. Just that mentioning Hades in the NT isn't about giving glory to the Greek god Hades. Or mentioning Apployion isn't about giving glory to that Roman god.
QuoteTwo witnesses can give accounts, and if one testifies later than the other, it doesn't mean he copied the first..
That's almost teh opposite of what I tried to say in each and every post on this subject. Moses story, which was no story but a fact, was the very very first. It just got written down long after all those other false stories.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 17, 2014, 10:10:22 PMIf I understood you correctly I see some problems. Sometimes there are 14 days between Sabbaths because some weeks have no Sabbath. Making New moon day a Sabbath only solves the problem for 28 day months because it would cause 2 sabbath days in a row on 29 day months.
:dontknow:
01 New Moon Day
02 Sunday
03 Monday
04 Tuesday
05 Wednesday
06 Thursday
07 Friday
08 Saturday
09 Sunday
10 Monday
11 Tuesday
12 Wednesday
13 Thursday
14 Friday
15 Saturday
16 Sunday
17 Monday
18 Tuesday
19 Wednesday
20 Thursday
21 Friday
22 Saturday
23 Sunday - Day 1
24 Monday - Day 2
25 Tuesday - Day 3
26 Wednesday - Day 4
27 Thursday - Day 5
28 Friday - Day 6
Missing Sabbath day
01 New Moon Day - Day 7
02 Sunday - Day 8
03 Monday - Day 9
04 Tuesday - Day 10
05 Wednesday - Day 11
06 Thursday - Day 12
07 Friday - Day 13
08 Saturday - Day 14 --> Previous Sabbath was 14 days ago.
Ok, I will try to explain, since you asked. The first, and probably most difficult thing that needs to be done is to totally forget about the way our calendar works today. That is what causes so much of the problem. Man's calendar and the Creator's calendar operate totally different from each other. The celestial clock works the way the Creator intended it, and where man cannot touch it, to tell us when day is, when night is, and what kind of day it is. My 12 year old son has been taught to observe the heavens and has known since he was 10 how to tell what day it is according to the heavenly calendar. For us older folk it takes much more unlearning, since we tend to mix the way our calendar works with His.
Having said that, each month has either 29 or 30 days.
Of those days, 1 or 2 are New moon days (days in which there is no moon seen, and where the month is reset from the previous month). An important point to note here is that new moon days are not week days, like they are in our calendar. They are a separate category of day, designed to reset the month and tell us when that is.
Then you have 24 working days (each noted by the appearance of the moon, either waxing or waning). Those 24 days are divided up into 4 equal periods of 6 days each, each followed by a seventh day.
There are 4 seventh days following each 6 working day period, called shabbats (each noted by a half moon, full moon, half moon, then the last sliver of moon)
Those 6 working days followed by a shabbat is what makes up a scriptural week. Again, at the end of the month, when new moon happens, that is counted as a day of the month, not a day of the week. There is a difference in His calendar.
When you see the calendar put together, and separate it in your mind from the one you are used to using, you will see that every week has a shabbat at the end of it. The reason it appears that there are weeks without one is because people are erroneously counting new moon day as a day of the week. Here is a 30 day month that I will try to outline below to get a visual of this:
01 New Moon day (not a weekday, nor a shabbat)
02 03 04 05 06 07 08 Six working days ending in shabbat (first week)
09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Six working days ending in shabbat (second week)
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Six working days ending in shabbat (third week)
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 Six working days ending in shabbat (fourth week)
30 New moon day (not a weekday, nor a shabbat)
Most know of only one day called new moon, but in ancient times there were either 1 or 2 such days. An example of 2 days of new moon can be found in 1 Samuel 20, where King Saul held a special dinner for 2 days, where David (part of the family) was expected to be. Those special meals were done by custom on new moon days.
The reason for the 2 days of this festive meal is because the first day is called "ha'chodesh" (vs 24). This is the first day of new moon, ending the previous month.
Then on the morrow, the next day is called "ha'chodesh' ha'shni". This is the second day of new moon, beginning the new month.
David knew there would be two days of new moon, which is why he hid in the field for three days and not two.
On those months with only 29 days, there is only one day of new moon, which occurs right after the last shabbat.
Since the new moon period resets the month, on the creator's calendar, each shabbat occurs on the same day of each week...the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th. There is a continuous cycle, but it not the same as the continuous cycle that our calendar has.
Superimposing this calendar on the creation week of Genesis 1, I see that first new moon day as the day the creator put out all the prepared raw materials that he would use the next 6 days to work with to make everything just as he had in his heart. Just as with my current acceptance and understanding of universal restoration, it took me a good long time to work through my objections and come to see it as I currently do, which of course, in my mind makes beautiful sense. :)
Ronen
This is fascinating, Ronen. Post more and more, please, of these things you know.
Were those new moon days set aside in some way; treated as special?
Quote from: Tapioca on March 18, 2014, 01:53:59 PMWere those new moon days set aside in some way; treated as special?
In ancient times they were, yes. It was a day of feasting, a time of worship, and a general day of rest, although not quite to the extent of Shabbat, preparing for the upcoming 6 day workweek. According to history, in time, it gradually lost its specialness. To me, it pictures the time when the cornerstone was laid and the heavenly host trumpeted with joy.
Ronen
Ronen, what if the month is 29 days?
I have to search but I have an article from a Jewish encyclopedia about day-x being an additional Sabbath day.
I think day-x is a full moon day but I'm uncertain about it. But I'm certain about the extra Sabbath. I'll post when I find it.
BTW this would also solve the problem on how to count the omer and things. Ancient Jews didnt agree on it.
I "think' all of this is on a road of intelligence.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 19, 2014, 02:55:57 AM
Ronen, what if the month is 29 days?
If there are 29 days, then you have the 4 shabbats on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th, and the next day is the first of the next month, one new moon day. I have been observing this calendar for a about 4 years now and I have never had an extra shabbat in any month, just the 4 mentioned.
Thank you micah for that reminder. I do not want what I share to be just 'information' to stroke one's intelligence. I get much in a spiritual way out of these physical things, and believe that is what it is all designed to point to, our beloved Yeshua.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 19, 2014, 11:16:23 AM
Thank you micah for that reminder. I do not want what I share to be just 'information' to stroke one's intelligence. I get much in a spiritual way out of these physical things, and believe that is what it is all designed to point to, our beloved Yeshua.
Even if it was just information for intelligence it would be good because if we want to know how it points to Jesus we have to understand the intellectual part first. Otherwise it's almost guaranteed wrong doctrine is build upon it.
You use the term "dark moon". I assume that's the period without any visible moon. If so, how does your calendar compensate for the variable length of that dark period?
Plus in my personal understanding the 1st of the month started with the first sighted crescent.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 19, 2014, 12:27:12 PMYou use the term "dark moon". I assume that's the period without any visible moon. If so, how does your calendar compensate for the variable length of that dark period?
Plus in my personal understanding the 1st of the month started with the first sighted crescent.
I think most who go by the moon do the same, in looking for the first sighted crescent to tell them when the 1st day of the month is. As far as variable lengths, in the over 4 years I have been going out and observing the sky and learning as I go along, depending on the month, there are only 1 or 2 such days when the moon is not seen. Because I live in cloudy Florida, if the weather prevents me from seeing the sky clearly after that, I know that a month will never have more than 30 days so I start the month automatically then. Also, by the time I get to the 6th working day, the moon that night will tell me that the next day is shabbat, so it all works out.
In my personal understanding, the first sighted crescent signals the start of the 1st day of the workweek, the 2nd day of the month. So upon seeing the first crescent, I see it as the signal to get some good sleep and get ready to work the next day. :)
If one wished to see this pattern for themselves, the only thing I can encourage is to do what I do...go outside and get to know His heavenly timepiece firsthand :).
Ronen
:cloud9: How about God created out of Himself, which is literally creating out of NO THING.....ie. nothing that is material realm.
He is forever ascending and descending in and out of His creation, since. God breathes in = spirit leaves flesh = we die. God breathes out = spirit comes into flesh, we live. For in Him we live and breathe and have our BE-ING, no longer NO THING.
Faith IS, the EVIDENCE OR SUBSTANCE of things, NOT SEEN, ie. NO THING. Put another way, what you see is what you had the faith to pull out of being NO THING, and into being SOMETHING in the material creation realm.
For we don't know what we will be like, but we know that WHEN WE SEE HIM, we will be LIKE HIM. As was said to the men gazing up into the clouds that day, paraphrased for clarity, THE JESUS YOU SEE IS THE ONE THAT WILL RETURN TO YOU.
WHO do you see? Your faith reveals Him. Blessings....
[quote author=gregoryfl link=topic=12424.msg169828#msg169828
When you see the calendar put together, and separate it in your mind from the one you are used to using, you will see that every week has a shabbat at the end of it. The reason it appears that there are weeks without one is because people are erroneously counting new moon day as a day of the week. Here is a 30 day month that I will try to outline below to get a visual of this:
01 New Moon day (not a weekday, nor a shabbat)
02 03 04 05 06 07 08 Six working days ending in shabbat (first week)
09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Six working days ending in shabbat (second week)
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Six working days ending in shabbat (third week)
23 24 25 26 27 28 29 Six working days ending in shabbat (fourth week)
30 New moon day (not a weekday, nor a shabbat)
[/quote]
The most well know Hebrew date is Nisan 14th. The day Jesus was crucified. Endless debates on the exact day. Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. For starters, only the Sabbath day had a name, all other days just a number. Day 1...6
So while on our calendar Nisan 14 is on a different weekday every year for the ancient Jews it was always on the day they called "Day-6" the day before Sabbath day.
Correct Ronen?
Article about lunar Sabbath. http://www.hope-of-israel.org/lunarsab.html
Pentecost count of 7 perfect Sabbaths = 49 days. The next day (50th) is Pentecost.
When I insert New Moon days I'm unable to find a matching Pentecost count.
What's your solution to this problem Ronen?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 21, 2014, 11:55:16 AM
The most well know Hebrew date is Nisan 14th. The day Jesus was crucified. Endless debates on the exact day. Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. For starters, only the Sabbath day had a name, all other days just a number. Day 1...6
So while on our calendar Nisan 14 is on a different weekday every year for the ancient Jews it was always on the day they called "Day-6" the day before Sabbath day.
Correct Ronen?
Shalom achi :)
Yes, I would agree with that...Day 6 of the 2nd week, or Day 14 of the 1st month, either or :) And yes, days and months originally were just numbers, until the Babylonian exile where they adopted Babylonian names for the months, still in use today.
Ronen
Quote from: Cardinal on March 19, 2014, 05:52:06 PM
:cloud9: How about God created out of Himself, which is literally creating out of NO THING.....ie. nothing that is material realm.
Amein to that :iagree:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 21, 2014, 12:12:07 PM
Pentecost count of 7 perfect Sabbaths = 49 days. The next day (50th) is Pentecost.
When I insert New Moon days I'm unable to find a matching Pentecost count.
What's your solution to this problem Ronen?
Shavuot is arrived at by counting 7 complete shabbats. This is not a counting of days, but shabbats, so there will be more than 49 days in counting according to the Creator's calendar. Then, according to the Hebrew of Leviticus 23:16, ממחרת which means 'from morrow', not simply 'the morrow' as is commonly translated, due to the way Shavuot came to be counted. This same word is used in the previous verse where it says:
You will count off for yourselves
from the morrow after the first sabbath, from the day you bring the sheaf of the wave offering:there shall be seven flawless sabbaths.
(Lev 23:15 CLV)
Now compare this with the next verse:
Until
the morrow after the seventh sabbath you shall count off fifty days; then you will bring near an approach present of new grain to Yahweh.
(Lev 23:16 CLV)
The preposition 'from' is missing in this verse, and it ends up changing the meaning.
The 'from' in verse 15 instructs us to do something after that first shabbat. 'From' provides a starting point that instructs us to begin counting shabbats until you get to 7 complete ones. Then...
If the next verse was corrected to read like this:
Until
from the morrow after the seventh sabbath you shall count off fifty days; then you will bring near an approach present of new grain to Yahweh.
the 'from' in this verse would do the same thing it did in the previous verse, providing us a starting point which instructs us to do something after the seventh shabbat, which would be to count 50 straight days.
Shavuot is a summer feast, and the first one used the wheat planted in the spring by the Israelites, which would take about 4 months to come to harvest, in summer. This would also be the time when the new wine would be available. Neither would be available in the time period dictated by counting
7 shabbats=49 days, then one day= a total of 50 days.
The count, as I have come to understand it being done originally, was:
7 shabbats (not counting days but only shabbats), then after that counting 50 days.
You have shared much, Whitewings, concerning harvest and such. Take another look at it from the agricultural standpoint, and then the scriptures describing what wheat is to be used, and what wine was available, and that will help I think in seeing that it indeed was a summer festival, almost 4 months, after Pesach.
Ronen
(http://1888.org/images/2011/07/05/6493/pentecost-count-explained-smaller.png)
So the pentecost count is 50 days + whatever number of days contains 7 Sabbaths? That would make the count close to 100. That would be near the end of the wheat season? IIRC Pentecost is also nicknamed the second first fruits (first harvest of the wheat)
(http://www.gci.org/files/Harvest%20seasons%20in%20modern%20Israel.gif)
http://www.joybysurprise.com/Harvest_Times_In_Israel_.html
That chart shows winter wheat being harvested in May. The wheat planted in the spring is the wheat used for shavuot, which would be harvested in the summer.
Could be Ronen, the only farming I do is on the shelves of the local super market :icon_jokercolor:
I only know barley was planted 70 days before harvest.
Any farmers around?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 21, 2014, 03:04:00 PM
Could be Ronen, the only farming I do is on the shelves of the local super market :icon_jokercolor:
I only know barley was planted 70 days before harvest.
Any farmers around?
I too, am a marketeer. :laughing7: One (there is more than this though) proof of this harvest coming from the planting in the spring is it's link with the new wine from the grape harvest (you can reference Acts 2:13), which is definitely a summer harvest in Israel. There is simply no new wine in the third month.
Ronen
I am a believer in Jesus Christ my Savior and continue to be blessed by the spiritual workings of the Lord. Still I must say you two fellas are in a world of your own. Not that I doubt any of what you say and produce, but I, me, personally find what you offer....literal history of the Hebrew and Aramaic, and it may have a lot to do with the siftings of the Word as it is mined, but to me you fellas have got the whole thing pretty much laid out and all we/I have to do is await ya'alls next post. I might say I am very glad to be able to read what is offered, even though I am the lowest fella on the learning and getting it pole, that all your calculations are but your historical, literal, Hebrew, Aramaic contributions. I admire it all. I am just not going to the bank. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Shalom micah :)
I look at the perspective I bring, as well as yours, and other, as facets of a beautiful gem. Some may only admire and be interested in but one facet, and some may like to admire several. From the literal to the spiritual, the facets and layers of all that is of Yeshua are endless. I could be wrong, but although I may appear to be enamored with the physical, I think if we could see things completely from our Creator's view, we would in fact be looking very much at the same things, just from different perspectives, neither of which is right or wrong. I believe you have no need of going to the bank Micah, for the bank is in you. :)
:HeartThrob:
Ronen
I think only studying all the facets is the way to go.
I have a feeling we sometimes need several keys to open a door to a "higher level"
Or.
Several facets are witnesses to each other. Without going into way off-topic detail I can say I personally studied two facets that are supposed to lead to the same event. Both were solid studies. But they point to something different. Meaning at least one of my studies is flawed. Meaning in the two facets served as witnesses showing I need to iron out some bugs in my studies.
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 22, 2014, 03:15:00 AM
Shalom micah :)
I look at the perspective I bring, as well as yours, and other, as facets of a beautiful gem. Some may only admire and be interested in but one facet, and some may like to admire several. From the literal to the spiritual, the facets and layers of all that is of Yeshua are endless. I could be wrong, but although I may appear to be enamored with the physical, I think if we could see things completely from our Creator's view, we would in fact be looking very much at the same things, just from different perspectives, neither of which is right or wrong. I believe you have no need of going to the bank Micah, for the bank is in you. :)
:HeartThrob:
Ronen
:cloud9: EXACTLY :thumbsup: