Al Larson is a wonderful Christian man who has deeply searched the scriptures for life principles. He is a psychologist that has helped many people move closer to Jesus. He has helped many , for example, overcome debilitating irrational fears in one session with them.
Al teaches that most people fall into one of two catagories. Some fall in the middle, but not usually. They (we) are usually primarily "sort by same" or "sort by different". I will testify that my exposure to this principle has helped me in life and relationships.
People often pair up with opposites. Marriages often have a sort by same and a sort by different.
People who "sort by same" tend to see how beautifully everything fits together and works together and "everything is beautiful in its own way."
People who "sort by different" see what is "off, wrong, or missing".
These two can easily get on each other's nerves because they view almost everything in life from a different perspective. When one of your children is the opposite of you, it can be a hard life for both of you, but maybe more so for the child who's authority figure misunderstands him completely.
Being able to recognize these types on the people we love can be extremely helpful in maintaining balanced relationships.
So my question is, which one are you? I am wondering if UR attracts more of one than the other. I have a theory that it does. But I could be totally wrong.
Off the top of my head, the prophet Jeremiah and most Old Testament prophets are strongly sort by different. Not happy people when a society is about to collapse, because they see all the reasons why. Not sure, but I think Moses and Aaron both may have been sort by same. I think David was sort by same. I kind of think John was sort by same, and Peter sort by different. I hope this is not disrespectful, but I think the majority of what we see of The stories of Jesus would put him at "sort by different." Logic might say he would have been the perfect balance of both. But just going by most of the stories of him, seems like he is pointing out what is "off, wrong, or missing".
It is not bad or good, (although your opposite might like you to beleive your perspective is bad) it just is. Obviously the Holy Spirit uses either who is yielded.
Which are you? Do you see what is "off, wrong, or missing"? (Sort by different). Or are you irritated at those who do because it was a really nice parade, and they are raining on your parade? (Probably sort by same).
If you have other UR friends, which type are they?
Wadif, could you give some examples of which is which? Like, in ways that we can see ourselves through? This is new to me. :dontknow:
Hi W! and all
I was told of UR and at first did not believe ,nor convinced , still being very literal and carnal minded
Taking the scriptures to the very letter of the law that kills ...... The Holy Spirit interceded and Jesus Christ ''opened the seals '' and understanding for me over many years of hungering and thirsting for the TRUTH that set many of us free , It was ALL HIM and not me , I would have never pursued the depths and heights of Gods glory and marvelous plan on my own accord , HE IS THE ONE WHOM DESERVES ALL HONOR AND PRAISE AND GLORY
My hubby God love him , still is not convinced but is silent when I present things he just cannot answer ... :sigh:
Revelations has been the main stumbling block with the lake of fire that burns forever and ever , he just cannot seem to ''get past '' the literal interpretation
I asked him how did Jesus whom come to send fire upon the earth and divisions not peace but a SWORD to divide in Luke 12 48-52
and do you see the FIRE yet? and what of the burning bush in Moses time and the angel of the Lord spoke to him and yet the bush was not consumed ?
None of these things ''make sense to his carnal thinking '' and put him to silence , but the seed is planted in his heart to think on these things
Spirit and truth are able to endure all things and all time , these are eternal things that GOD IS , HE IS LOVE AND A CONSUMING FIRE AND SPIRIT
Those things are not easily understood in human terms and were never meant to be ..
Being born again of the incorruptible seed which is Christ is the only way GOD made for us to come to know HIM AND IT IS THOUGH JESUS CHRIST HIS ONE OF A KIND SON ... :HeartThrob: God made a way where there was no way ..... all glory is Gods , we can boast in the Lord and His goodness and His mercy endures forever and wrath is but for a moment !!!!
considering time is not an issue in God , it is only a human element that will also melt away in Christ !!! resolve :HeartThrob:
I think God created an interested dynamic by purposely turning these basic principles upsidedown. I believe in both.
Examples Christ death was wrong but at the same time it was beautiful.
The apostles had a hard time, especially Peter who insisted on not having Jesus to die, understanding that goodness can only be understood after experiencing the opposite.
The hell doctrine has nothing good in it but the proposes of correction has a purpose bringing out good from evil.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 13, 2015, 09:25:23 AM
Wadif, could you give some examples of which is which? Like, in ways that we can see ourselves through? This is new to me. :dontknow:
This has to do with an ongoing thread "why 'tent maker'". But I didn't want to cloud that thread with this concept. But I am struggling with why UR seems to be such a cohesive doctrine for so many people, when for me it is fragmented and has several problems that I am not sure I can overcome. I am thinking maybe it is because I am so strongly "sort by different". People don't like to be put in catagories, so I am avoiding that. But I can name you some on here that are strongly sort by same. So I am wondering if some one like me should even try.
I will pick a post from a good minded stong individual. I am not putting him in a catagory, but just telling you how my sort by different mind works:
Here is the quote from the other thread:
"I believe the following scriptures (and many others) convey the heart felt thinking of UR more than any other doctrine.[/b]
Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
[/quote]"
Ok, now please, I am not criticizing this person. It is a wonderful post that helps me understand, and resonated with other readers.
You all see how these scriptures fit together to explain UR.
I just see flashing lights like on top of a police car pulling me over. The very next verse Jesus says "but if you do not forgive men their trespases, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)
To me this pair of verses is perhaps the most difficult in all of scripture. You want to talk about an unforgivable sin. Here it is: Unforgiveness is an unforgivable sin. Right out of the mouth of my beautiful Savior.
What does it mean to a UR??
How do you deal with it. I get the feeling you don't even notice it. I am trying to read the bible and pray as a UR believer. For me the Bible is like a mine field for that system of thought.
I can give you examples like that in probably ten different scriptures used in the same thread "why tentmaker?"
I want to embrace your beliefs. I think they are beautiful. But I am starting to feel like the way God made me won't allow it. I see the things that are "off, wrong, or missing". I can't help seeing them.
I want to know how everyone else deals with the problems. But if everyone else is sort by same, they don't even see the problems. I think it is wonderful that God made some people like that. They are a joy to be around.
I am an engineer, very detailed and look for flaws in designs. I am a sort by different type.
I understand there are some "differences" that must be overcome to embrace UR. With me, it just clicked - it only became real to me when the Spirit overwhelmed me with His presence and showed me the Glorious Gospel. And - it happened in an instant.
Now, when I read scripture, instead of constantly seeing the tensions of the Calvinist/Arminian points of theology (ie free will and sovereignty), I see (under UR) how all things just fall into place.
Now I worship the God of the bible, not the bible. I hope this rambling makes sense to someone. lol :mock: :dunno2:
:cloud9: No, we do notice it. We notice other so-called contradictions on other subject matter, too. But one thing has remained constant for me in nearly 3 decades of study: if something appears to contradict, it's because I'm missing a "key" (or sometimes the man-made distortion either thru ignorance of the Spirit, or outright attempts at hiding the Truth). Once I discover the key, I'm amazed that there is agreement all thru it, even if on the surface it may not always appear to be so.
May I suggest you continue to ask Him to open your eyes to it? It's like salvation; once it happens no one on the face of the earth can tell you it didn't. Blessings...
I'm reading through the Bible, currently in Psalms, looking for scriptures giving a unified view of "no Hell." See my thread, "Heaven Yes, Hell, No." So I would ID myself as a sort by same type for the most part, though it began as a sort by different, by which I mean to say, hey, look at these scriptures which contradict eternal torture in Hell. :flamebreath: > :eek: > :dunno2: > :rolllol: > :cloud9:
As I like to say, it all makes sense together, or it makes no sense at all. :declare:
:iagree: with Cardinal.
Now:
"but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)
Concerning that Wadif, to me, I feel God will do corrective/restorative punishment UNTIL the creature realizes the transgression and repents - then the trespass IS forgiven on behalf of the tresspasser. Then, God can forgive the person.
I believe the big difference is we see punishment as restorative, not punishment for the sake of showing power and wrath to make people fearful. Just my :2c: :Peace2:
When the Lord revealed to me that the foundation, the Cornerstone of my learning must begin with the knowledge and understanding that HE IS LOVE (was, is, and will be.) To read, study, or pray without this Wisdom when one starts, leads to multitude speculations and interpretations. :2c: :dsunny:
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 13, 2015, 06:06:10 PM
:iagree: with Cardinal.
Now:
"but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)
Concerning that Wadif, to me, I feel God will do corrective/restorative punishment UNTIL the creature realizes the transgression and repents - then the trespass IS forgiven on behalf of the tresspasser. Then, God can forgive the person.
I believe the big difference is we see punishment as restorative, not punishment for the sake of showing power and wrath to make people fearful. Just my :2c: :Peace2:
Thank you. Now there is an example of seeing a problem and dealing with it. I think Gary has probably done this with all the problems, and I may need time to just work through them all. But I have problems with some of Gary's methods already. Not his fault. It is just me. But he lost me when he started using Origen as proof that the early believers all believed in UR.
So did all the early believers also beleive in reincarnation and transmigration of souls? Did their beliefs stand in direct contradiction to the teachings of Paul and John? Did they really beleive that the devil will experience reconciliation with God? All these are attributed to Origen.
I know Origen was a great man, and maybe a genius, and maybe even correct. It's great that he believed in UR. But that Gary would use him to prove that this was the belief of the early church is a problem for me. Could some one please try to understand how that might be a problem for me?
I do not worship the Bible. I do not even refer to it as the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. If you throw a Bible in the fire and it burns to ashes, you have done nothing to the Word of God.
But I am sorry, I can't buy the "burning in the bosom" thing as proof of the correctness of UR. It is the same thing Mormons will ask you to pray for. It is the same thing a group of Eastern Chanters (Budist, I think. I was very young) once asked me to pray for. So many founders of different sects and their prophetsgive testemony to the same thing including, but not limited to Seventh day Adventist, Mormon, and a long list of cults.
There is a phenomenon named by those who de-program those who have been brain washed such as in a cult. It is called "mind snapping". Our mind alerts us to things that are wrong. Mind snapping is when those warning are pushed away and ignored so long that the mind quits sending those warnings. I know you are not a cult, but please don't ask me to just ignore the flashing red lights.
Thank you again, Hunger, and others who are taking the time to explain how to deal with specific problems. I know it takes time. Time is a gift. Thank you for giving it to me.
:cloud9: Hi....if my comment is the one you're addressing with the flashing red lights comment, it wasn't meant to imply that. More like, if you ask your Father for a fish, He won't give you a serpent. I believe that what I ask for, I'll get, if it's done with a pure motive, because our Father desires to give good things to His children. Every time I've EVER asked Him to explain something to me in His Word, sooner or later, it's shown to me, either directly thru my study, or someone else's. Blessings...
Awesome that you are searching this all out Whadif.
hey - check this book out. It is called: "Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate".
"The volume opens with a rigorous three-part defense of Christian universalism by philosopher Thomas Talbott, who argues that Scripture teaches the ultimate salvation of all people, including those in hell. Gabriel Fackre in his foreword calls Talbott's work "the most thoughtfully wrought argument for universalism to date from within the contemporary evangelical community." The rest of the book gathers incisive responses to Talbott by Christian scholars from different disciplines, who evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of Talbott's arguments, take his thought in new directions, or explain why they think he is mistaken. Talbott then responds to his critics. The aim of this volume is not to persuade people that universalism is true but to open up a fairer debate on a controversial subject of continuing importance to theologians and nontheologians alike. By exploring universal salvation from biblical, philosophical, theological, and historical perspectives, the book helps readers think through the issues more carefully than has been possible with resources previously available."
This book really helped me.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802827640?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
I worked as a nurse for decades. When we recieved nursing training.....we were to always be alert to negative signs/symptoms
to manifest in our patients...so we could get right on it..and avoid further complications. I think that is what trained my mind
to hone in on the 'different'. It changed me..and the way I looked at life..that career.
confused immune system..is a lot like Babylon's confused religious systems/belief. The body attacks self..thinking it is foreign....
causing much damage. The real enemy[bacteria/virus/sin] overcomes weakened confused defense/protective system ............
hate the sin[virus/germ/parasite/corruption]..heal the sinner[body]
I have found that engineers have an aptitude for assembling many-fold pieces into a functional/working smooth design..
they were usually big into lincoln logs/puzzles legos as children. my grandson is like this..I started him on puzzles at one year old.
helped him with reading writing math;[after all their just like puzzle pieces, letters and numbers, that when assembled rightly form
words,sentences,paragraphs and stories.which paint a word picture.
the scriptures and word of God is that way...and His mind/spirit can assemble it for us.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 13, 2015, 05:21:22 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 13, 2015, 09:25:23 AM
Wadif, could you give some examples of which is which? Like, in ways that we can see ourselves through? This is new to me. :dontknow:
This has to do with an ongoing thread "why 'tent maker'". But I didn't want to cloud that thread with this concept. But I am struggling with why UR seems to be such a cohesive doctrine for so many people, when for me it is fragmented and has several problems that I am not sure I can overcome. I am thinking maybe it is because I am so strongly "sort by different". People don't like to be put in catagories, so I am avoiding that. But I can name you some on here that are strongly sort by same. So I am wondering if some one like me should even try.
I will pick a post from a good minded stong individual. I am not putting him in a catagory, but just telling you how my sort by different mind works:
Here is the quote from the other thread:
"I believe the following scriptures (and many others) convey the heart felt thinking of UR more than any other doctrine.[/b]
Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
"
Ok, now please, I am not criticizing this person. It is a wonderful post that helps me understand, and resonated with other readers.
You all see how these scriptures fit together to explain UR.
I just see flashing lights like on top of a police car pulling me over. The very next verse Jesus says "but if you do not forgive men their trespases, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)
To me this pair of verses is perhaps the most difficult in all of scripture. You want to talk about an unforgivable sin. Here it is: Unforgiveness is an unforgivable sin. Right out of the mouth of my beautiful Savior.
What does it mean to a UR??
How do you deal with it. I get the feeling you don't even notice it. I am trying to read the bible and pray as a UR believer. For me the Bible is like a mine field for that system of thought.
I can give you examples like that in probably ten different scriptures used in the same thread "why tentmaker?"
I want to embrace your beliefs. I think they are beautiful. But I am starting to feel like the way God made me won't allow it. I see the things that are "off, wrong, or missing". I can't help seeing them.
I want to know how everyone else deals with the problems. But if everyone else is sort by same, they don't even see the problems. I think it is wonderful that God made some people like that. They are a joy to be around.
[/quote]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CHB wrote:
Don't know why this didn't quote like it should
One thing I try to remember when reading these verses that was before the crucifixion is, there was no Savior for us until Christ died. Things changed a little after the death and resurrection of Christ. Everyone was still under the law, including Christ.
Some of the verses that seem to contridict UR usually have another verse that shows they don't. Take for instance where paul says to "work out our own salvation". Next verse says "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure". So, do we work out our own salvation or does God work it out through us? I could go on and on but if you play pro and con while reading you will work things out, or rather God will work them out for you. I guess I learned the most when I started reading many different views of what I had a problem with. Don't just read one mans view on something you have a problem with.
CHB
hmmmm :Chinscratch: I think I am both..? :laughing7:
..and I do see some problems with UR.. Not UR itself.. and I don't pay a lot of attention to Origen / early church fathers, though I am interested in their thoughts, but to me, it's the Word and the Spirit.. Origen, perfect example of what can be right belief and also what can be 'wrong' belief in the same vessel..
I don't want to offend any one.. but I think too much expounding on the spiritual, or what is thought of as hidden messages of things, can cloud the UR message, losing readers and listeners... maybe I'm just too much a hillbilly, or that is concrete, down to earth, get your teeth into kind of person.. so that would be the sort by different, right?
But I think all people, all groups, all sects, etc, etc (including myself, and including UR) have their right on, and their error.. making us all imperfect and "we all err in many ways" - is that sort by same?
I have found no group that I can march lock step with.. yet I can march with almost any group.. and find the common ground..
It's actually my belief that no humans will go to the LOF.. but I am willing to compromise and say perhaps some very stubborn hold outs will..
For instance Jesus said "it will be easier for Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for you"
"The queen of the south will rise up" and say "on Judgment Day.."
These sorts of verses support my belief that Judgement Day will be more, and longer, than a day. I believe an age lasting 500 years, the reason being the Fall Holy Days spacing and timing, if the Spring Holy Days were fulfilled by the 1st Advent of Jesus.. I believe the three prominent peaks of the 2nd advent will 'fulfill' the thre ancient Autumn Holy Days.. making the one in the middle - Day of Atonement (DOA) - to be fulfilled by Day of Judgment which occurs after (and largely involving) those of the 2nd resurrection who arrive on the scene (resurrected) DOA, or that is "still in their sins" having died "still in their sins".
It makes no sense to me of a resurrection (after the 1000 years, represented by the 10 days between Trumpets and DOA) that lasts a day.. people wake up and are tossed into the LOF for purification.. when the Day of Atonement is a perfect representation of repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation. And Jubilee.
It's my belief it's at the end of that long 'day' that those (still) not believing (still not having their names in the Book of LiFe/believing/reconciliation) will be cast into the LOF for purification.. but who after experiencing being resurrected, etc, isn't going to believe?
That, to me, also makes the Day of Judgment (DOJ) a veRy important day.. a great day of review, repentance, mourning, even gnashing of teeth, as all examine mankind and angelic history.. all the horrible, horribleness of it.. A time of the major portion of writing His law on every heart and mind.
Besides, if God is the one who chooses the elect "I chose you, you did not choose Me".. why would the reconciliation of the non-elect require such more stringent measures in order to bring about repentance and being touched by God's Glory..
It's my belief a little leaven, in this example, untruth, leavens the whole lump.. makes it unbelievable..
I could of course be wrong.. I do believe He is a consuming, better word purifying, fire, absolutely. But I think of the LOF as a last ditch effort "created for the devil and his angels" not man..
Also, I find UR in be in the scripture so much more than 'hell' - and all believed references to a 'hell' are easily explained..
Jesus descended to the lower part of the earth.. the dust of the grave.. angels who left their first place are in chains of darkness (tartarus) awaiting judgment.. once they became imperfect, the opposite of God/Life, they cannot reverse their course and make their selves perfect.. hence they are locked into their course, and locked into judgment..
Gehenna of course, was the town dump where even the bodies of criminals were burned and the fire was not allowed to go out, but was kept burning.. better to (allegorically) toss ones hand or eye of offense into it than ones whole body once they offended one of these little ones!
"..visited or that is preached via the Spirit to those who were awaiting perishing while the ark was being prepared" why would this be His visiting a 'hell' where folks went upon their death, before even 'judgment'? It's not logical. Including the idea of 'going to heaven or hell at death' making death not non-life (the opposite of God/Life/Perfection) but another type of "life"...
So I throw this out every so often, and I could go on further, but I have to run.. duty calls.. :Peace2:
p.s - and in that day, imo, "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations rejoice before Him"
I see it from the perspective of Babylonian exile. For 70 years no less, nobody could ask God to be freed, until the proper time, because he would not hear them. That doesn't mean that Israel was forever lost. It's just that when God, after patience and long suffering is ignored, decided to bring judgement, that judgement must be meted out on his timetable. It doesn't mean his judgement doesn't still work for the good. Everything God does is for good.
I think that sometimes the "informational processing" aspect to a truth can make the whole thing exhausting, and even obscure the reality. Doctrine is important, and knowledge is important, but the scriptures are so full of facts (so to speak) that sometimes trying to weigh them in order to analyze something can even lead to more confusion. If UR is a clear tree trunk running though scripture, there still appear to be leaves (verses, passages) that do not resemble the tree itself, so we have the potential for an endless game of "what about this verse?" from the naysayers.
To me, the proof of UR, and the starting point, center point and ending point for any truth, is Jesus Christ Himself. He fully expressed the Father - so where then was the tormenting of His enemies? He was God come in the flesh - so where then the anger and wrath towards His creation? He perfectly expressed the divine reality - so where then the excommunication of His foes? On the contrary - "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." He thus fulfilled His own sermon on perfection by showing that God indeed loves His enemies!
My wife and I have a little dog that we love. However, we are very much aware that though he loves us too, he is in a state of constant puzzlement as to our ways. He observes certain patterns, but is none the wiser as to what the human reality is. Therefore, we can forgive him all the more when he inevitably comes short of the fullness of human existence, because he "knows not what he does". Similarly, the spiritually dead man is in blindness and rebellion, like a baby in a womb, denying that such things as light and color exist, because they have not become apparent to him. But it is God who speaks to all darkness and says "Let there be light!"
I see the "information" of UR in the scriptures, and indeed by revelation, which is more than mere fact-farming. But I see the embodiment and fulfillment of UR in the person of Jesus Christ, and I have no need for further proof.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Shev on August 14, 2015, 05:11:01 AM
I think that sometimes the "informational processing" aspect to a truth can make the whole thing exhausting, and even obscure the reality. Doctrine is important, and knowledge is important, but the scriptures are so full of facts (so to speak) that sometimes trying to weigh them in order to analyze something can even lead to more confusion. If UR is a clear tree trunk running though scripture, there still appear to be leaves (verses, passages) that do not resemble the tree itself, so we have the potential for an endless game of "what about this verse?" from the naysayers.
To me, the proof of UR, and the starting point, center point and ending point for any truth, is Jesus Christ Himself. He fully expressed the Father - so where then was the tormenting of His enemies? He was God come in the flesh - so where then the anger and wrath towards His creation? He perfectly expressed the divine reality - so where then the excommunication of His foes? On the contrary - "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." He thus fulfilled His own sermon on perfection by showing that God indeed loves His enemies!
My wife and I have a little dog that we love. However, we are very much aware that though he loves us too, he is in a state of constant puzzlement as to our ways. He observes certain patterns, but is none the wiser as to what the human reality is. Therefore, we can forgive him all the more when he inevitably comes short of the fullness of human existence, because he "knows not what he does". Similarly, the spiritually dead man is in blindness and rebellion, like a baby in a womb, denying that such things as light and color exist, because they have not become apparent to him. But it is God who speaks to all darkness and says "Let there be light!"
I see the "information" of UR in the scriptures, and indeed by revelation, which is more than mere fact-farming. But I see the embodiment and fulfillment of UR in the person of Jesus Christ, and I have no need for further proof.
:HeartThrob:
Where is the like button?? :friendstu:
Hello Wadif,
I love your honest way of questioning. As you have described it, I'm definitely a 'sort by different' type of person. I recognize the processing of thoughts you describe. In the past, after I was born again (before I knew UR), I've forced myself to believe things I was supposed to believe and I've hated it. You get stuck. It's not, imo, only a brain-thing (mind snapping), but also at the same moment a heart/spirit thing. My spirit saying 'no' to something I was supposed to believe and I just pushed that gentle urging away, maybe even thinking I was resisting satan.
About UR. First I heard about it, my spirit said yes to it, yet I had only a handful of scripture and some philosophical reasons. I did not want to make my own God, so after a while I decided UR to be a heresy. Very soon after that decision, I heard a hell sermon. I plunged into a deep depression and fear. When I fully realized what we christians actually believe, I knew I could never come out of this depression. For a while I resisted the 'way out', namely UR, strongly, because I feared it was a temptation from satan.
One day I read a scripture which God used to reveal His really GOOD news to me. The immediate fruits were the disappearance of depression, and a great joy, peace and love to other people. In my heart was peace, but my brain said I was believing a heresy right now.
Since than I have read a lot on the Tentmaker. I do not agree with every detail or argument. Like you I have the tendency to notice an argument is not completely logical - and that often makes a statement less believable than when there had not been an argument at all. I also sometimes stumble on scriptures that make me afraid. Yet I fully agree with Cardinal: God explains what I don't understand at his time. That is not forcing myself to believe something, it's more like waiting and resting. Looking at Him, not trusting my own understanding (or other peoples' theories). I've often experienced I learn a scripture means something totally different than I could perceive. So when I stumble on another one, this experience helps me to see: probably I don't fully see what God meant here.
I think you don't want to live by what feels good and just fool yourself and I don't either.
Yet imo there is a difference between feel-good and the testimony of the Spirit inside our hearts and we must not ignore that. Though God's ways are higher than ours, and His Wisdom is often something we don't comprehend, I believe He will often teach us in a way that makes sense to our minds as well.
BTW ET now is absolutely illogical to me right now...
The writings of Charles Slagle helped me to see this (look for Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ)
Hope this helps somewhat
Unforgiveness is forgivable, but we must repent of unforgiveness and be healed of it in Christ before we are forgiven, yes we must forgive. We can't be whole with unforgiveness in our hearts. We can not be happy together forever with someone we hold something against. This is one reason, one of the many reasons I believe in UR. He taught us we must forgive everyone because we will ALL be together forever. Makes sense to me anyway, forgivness as well as all things of God are for our own good. He wants to be first in our lifes becuase He is all we really need.
You all have given me so much to think about and to read. I have the two books written down and will order them. people have sent me links privately as well. I wish I could respond to each post and each point made, because I have a response in me each time. I doubt if I can get that organized though. Some of them ticked me off (sort by same :eek: hahaha), and some I could really relate to (sort by different :Peace2:). (By the way, I love being around sort by same. God made us to need each other).
Sometimes I am feeling overwhelmed and maybe lost. Yours is not the only approach to scripture I am exploring. And each discipline is so convinced of it, and so convinced that others are incorrect. It is quite daunting and actually, makes me feel pretty sad sometimes. I wish I had more hope that something will make sense...that somewhere there is a discipline that can keep the whole bible as it is without having to twist so hard in places to make everything fit that particular conception of who Jesus was and is.
Then I read this and it rips my guts out:
John 17:20 ff. "I do not pray for these alone (those with him), but also for those who will believe in me through their word; that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."
Can't really see to type. Will try later.
22)"and the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23)"I in them and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as you have loved me."
"...one can study the Bible to accept or to reject it's truths. The difference largely lies in what one seeks to find in the Bible." Samuel Bacchiocchi, PHD
"...there is a different Jesus for each sect, estimated at 41,000 and increasing. Each sect takes a subset of the scriptures and creates their own image of God and Jesus And then worships it, all based on their own collective opinions as to which scriptures are invalid and which ones they think give eternal life." Hall V Worthington
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 15, 2015, 07:55:08 AM
"...there is a different Jesus for each sect, estimated at 41,000 and increasing. Each sect takes a subset of the scriptures and creates their own image of God and Jesus And then worships it, all based on their own collective opinions as to which scriptures are invalid and which ones they think give eternal life." Hall V Worthington
Continued from above quote:
"...but all the scriptures are valid; and if you have to ignore any that conflict with your understanding, you don't really understand the ones you think you do."
Hall V. W. Really had my attention. And of course, out of those 41,000 sects, which one do you suppose he thinks is right leaving 40,999 to be wrong? I won't even say it.
Then he quoted the two greatest commandments mentioning that they were in the Ten Commandments. (They are not). (Duet 6:5, Lev 19:18). And then I realized why he doesn't have to ignore any scriptures that conflict with his understanding. And I turn around, hang my head, and walk down the street alone.
Don't lose heart. God has a perfect "end-game". God's in control.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/what-a-mess/msg138864/#msg138864
may we always keep as a touchstone a basic simplicity of the Gospel (Good News);
"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."
:cloud9: Amen Jab....that is unequivocally the only foundation and capstone of the whole building. As long as we hang onto that, everything else is just details, so to speak. :winkgrin:
Do not worry brother Wadif I.M. Rong, HE WILL FIND YOU.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, and losing one of them, is not leaving the ninety-nine in the wilderness and is going after the lost one, till he may be finding it? :dsunny:
WhadIF - you are my new best friend on this board. You keep seeking Him and He will reveal himself.
As you know, I come from a reformed Calvanistic background. Having UR revealed to me gives me these thoughts: Dogmatic Theology divides the body of Christ. Christ draws us unto Himself. Only in Him will we find unity.
On of the pluses in the UR camp is - it is an inclusive doctrine that desires to draw ALL together. The other camps are exclusive. I believe that is why UR is so misunderstood and hated.
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 15, 2015, 10:59:29 PM
On of the pluses in the UR camp is - it is an inclusive doctrine that desires to draw ALL together. The other camps are exclusive. I believe that is why UR is so misunderstood and hated.
You are hated?!?! Really?
Wow. I might be able to join you after all.
I figured no one would hate people who tell them they have eternal life with Jesus no matter what they do.
One reason I am knowing my beliefs are not correct is that no one hates me or persecutes me or throws me out of the "synagogues". Everybody loves me. :cloud9:
("Off, wrong, or missing": the missing persecution).
If hate is happening to you, you gotta be closer to the truth than I am.
Now, I don't really think that any sort by same bretheren and sisteren are loosing any sleep over the fact that they are not being persecuted. But in case there is one, hopefully I have been able to bless you in that way. Mt 5:10-12. "...rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven"
(John 15:18f; 16:1-4; 17:14-18; 2tim 3:12)
Thank you guys for the kind and encouraging replys. They have meant more than you know.
I was driving along pondering what in the world people could possibly hate you for.
Then it hit me. It's the folks whose only comfort left in this world is the hope that their mother in law or ex-wife would eventually burn in hell.
Come to think of it. I hate you too. :LH:
You can thank me later. (Mt 5:10-12)
I think 9/10 people will hate you for believing in universal reconciliation because it puts everything they believe out of whack like the Pharisee felt about Jesus.
when the accusor of the brethern..who accuse them night and day before God..is thrown out of heaven=loses his position/Judas rep
of the jews that handed Jesus over to the romans to be put to death..also losing their position in the kingdom to the rightful heir.
finding themselves thrown to the earth...they began persecuting those who had the testimony of Jesus Christ.
it being no longer lawful to kill..since sabbath rest of man in Christ had come/being only lawful to heal....thus the lawless one
being revealed..as the great sabbath breaker. That man be able to rest,along with Christ and God..in the finished work.
Jesus kept them..through that day and hour[atonement=day and hour of praying and fasting/the fast of refraining from pointing the
the finger and striking with the fists..the approved fast...[judge not lest ye be judged] the Father and I judge no man
purge me with hyssop..blood on the doorpost....the betrayl with His sop
atonement day...sheep/goats..sort by different....if sheep are men..what does the goat represent? further divide by different lots
the Lord's goat and Azazel's..............remember He took on the appearance of sin...and we are healed by His stripes..cleansed
by His blood....
well,Rong...their falling a little short of loving their fellow man as themselves....of.the fullness that is in Christ. we have all had
some growing up to do in Christ.
letter to church of Philadelphia[brotherly love.]....I will cause those who say they are jews[spiritual]..but are not...but are liars and
synogog of satan[accusors of the brethern/saying Jesus sacrifice did not forgive their sins,too] fall down at your feet and
acknowledge that I have loved you[God/Jesus love all men/take away all sin].
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 16, 2015, 06:50:19 PM
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 15, 2015, 10:59:29 PM
On of the pluses in the UR camp is - it is an inclusive doctrine that desires to draw ALL together. The other camps are exclusive. I believe that is why UR is so misunderstood and hated.
You are hated?!?! Really?
Wow. I might be able to join you after all.
I figured no one would hate people who tell them they have eternal life with Jesus no matter what they do.
One reason I am knowing my beliefs are not correct is that no one hates me or persecutes me or throws me out of the "synagogues". Everybody loves me. :cloud9:
("Off, wrong, or missing": the missing persecution).
If hate is happening to you, you gotta be closer to the truth than I am.
Religion persecutes.
Getting thrown out of the synagogue is done by the sectarian(heresy) discrimination.
It is not a hard thing to do and get if that is what you want. Most of us keep our doctrines from being found out by those who have the power to cast you out................
Then we leave quietly or not so quietly.
:cloud9: Makes no sense at all that people would hate you for telling them the truly good news, does it? But it's because revenge is in their hearts and they want a God of revenge hellfire, ie. one made in THEIR image.
And pride is there telling them how much better they are than those that they are ok with sending there. So you "smack" pride with the truth and revenge kicks in....towards YOU, just like it did Jesus. :eek:
I've noticed people that have overcome some things and remained loving in their attitude in general, seem to be able to receive it and not get all bent out of shape over losing a doctrine their heart didn't witness to anyway. Blessings....
Religious people Hate the doctrine of UR Whadif. People in a position of authority the preach ET will label you a heretic for if they agreed with you they would loose their jobs. Yeah.
Cardinal makes a great point. One VERY educated in woman I know what is a staunch Arminian, listened to my wife explain UR. She said "hell never resonated with me or made sense. This is the first time I have heard this. What a great thing if it is true."
She didn't gloriously convert but she is open.
I remember when Rob Bells book came out, the pastor at the church I fellowship with and my son (who is an associate pastor there) were making fun of and ridiculing Rob Bells' book _ LOVE WINS. I had no idea what they were talking about at the time. Now I know.
I feel I will get the same treatment when I come out of the closet (UR) with them. But you never know. I am praying for wisdom and the preparation of their hearts.
Why come out of the closet? Why do anything? They don't need to know UR. Them knowing it has no effect on there eternal destiny. So why torment them with heresy, and why subject yourself to misunderstanding and hatred?
Why do anything at all?
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 17, 2015, 07:17:29 PM
Why come out of the closet? Why do anything? They don't need to know UR. Them knowing it has no effect on there eternal destiny. So why torment them with heresy, and why subject yourself to misunderstanding and hatred?
You are bringing me very close to some of my philosophical issues with this discipline. But I think I should probably put them on the thread where you gave history on Calvin. Because it is closely tied.
Interesting. I wonder why the defense of their doctrine makes them hateful and angry? It is like: "Believe like me or burn in hell!" Very exclusive. Very un-gracious. I think DOGMATIC doctrine divides. But Christ is not divided. So where is the Christ in that?
Think about it. Their way of loving people is to save and protect them from anything that will keep those beloved children of God out of heaven. Things like heretical teaching could do. Things like you.
Who keeps people out of heaven? Satan does. You do. Hmmmm
I am just trying to guess at why you would be hated. To me it is a shock that you are. Christ said all who followed him would be. I have never been, that I could tell. Deductive reasoning would say I have never followed Christ. Maybe you have.
He didn't say "everyone who is hated is following me". So don't think you got me that easily. Hahaha.
But you met one criteria. :gimmefive:
I used the words "heretic" and "heretical". That may be too strong. So I am asking if that is how orthodox Christianity views you. ?
Again, being branded a heretic does not necessarily mean you are correct. But it puts you in company with many who we now revere as having been right. Folks like that Jesus fellow.
Whadif: Do you remember when Rob Bells book came out? If yes - was there a reaction to that in the body there?
Check out this article I read online. It sort of expands a lot of my point. I posted the link at the bottom:
The Continued Crucifying Of Rob Bell, And What It Says About The State Of Modern Christianity
December 10, 2014 / johndpav
RobBell
It's often been said that we Christians eat our own.
This unsettling expression is all-too true, and apparently Rob Bell is on the menu yet again.
For a people whose go-to ideas are love for God and love for others, we Jesus folk are often pretty horrible toward one another, especially to those of us who attain any sort of position in the larger culture.
Oh sure, we'll root like crazy for them to reach the masses on their way up, but once they do, we'll as willingly and passionately go about the work of ripping them from their lofty positions; discrediting them, ridiculing them, shaming and shunning them in the process.
In the Church, as in so many other spheres of life, we love to love you when your star is rising, and few in modern times have risen faster or higher.
A decade ago, Rob Bell was a flat-out Christian Rock Star.
He was the guy on the conference speaker circuit, his megachurch Mars Hill Bible Church was a blockbuster, and his thought-provoking short films were staples of every young adult ministry in the country. He was known as a wise, engaging, creative, articulate teacher of the Bible; someone who was speaking about Jesus with a fresh voice that people in and outside of the Church resonated with.
He had a rabid army of fellow believers who hung on every word he uttered, who lapped-up every morsel he tossed them, who cheered him on like a local kid making the Bigs.
For a while, it was a Christian Bubble love fest.
Then something happened.
Rob Bell sinned.
But his offense wasn't a moral lapse of any kind. It wasn't an abuse of power or a sexual transgression or some financial misdeed, or any sort of ministry impropriety. (These had been, and continue to be the hallmark of so many Evangelical leaders, so that would be natural to assume).
Rob Bell's sin, was simply that he didn't stick to the script.
He deviated. He dared to ask questions. He challenged the status quo. He moved against the grain.
He went rogue and everything went South, (or rather, went to Hell).
The relationship turned toxic when Bell wrote a book called Love Wins, in which he challenged the idea of Hell; a seemingly untouchable, immoveable pillar of the Christian worldview. He asked a ton of really natural questions about reconciling eternal punishment with a loving God, and he examined matters of life and faith that had become foregone conclusions to most believers.
In the now infamous and pivotal volume that caused the Church to break-up with him, Bell didn't give many answers. He only asked people, to ask the questions. He invited inquisition.
In our modern Evangelical Christian subculture, well that's simply not something we tolerate, and it wasn't long before Rob Bell was being crucified by his peers.
Pastors began stepping over one another to speak out against his dangerous teachings.
Bloggers churned out post after post lamenting his tragic, heretical detours.
Conferences stopped booking him, well-known allies began distancing themselves, and before too long Bell was a virtual leper to his own community; the same community that had carried him proudly to prominence just months earlier.
Rob Bell became a dirty word in church circles; a punchline, a pariah.
As so often happens in the modern Church, he was intentionally and mercilessly pushed to the margins of the Christian community, just a few feet from irrelevance. There he would be left to languish for a few months before hopefully dissolving into obscurity.
Only Bell didn't do what his critics wanted.
He didn't tearfully repent and beg to get his club membership renewed.
He didn't fade into oblivion.
He didn't fall apart or fight back.
As so many of his brethren mercilessly attacked him, he simply turned around, stepped out through the dust-covered doors of the suffocating Christian bubble, and spoke to those who would still listen.
It turns out, there are a lot of people still listening.
Bell's resurgence has come at the hands of worldwide media mogul Oprah Winfrey, who has given Bell a prominent position on her network, and provided him a new and massive platform; the kind that most Christian leaders, bloggers, and writers would give up houses, kids, and arms for, if they're honest with themselves.
And this has brought the venom-peddlers out of the woodwork once again. The same Christian people who treated him so horribly, now act like he's abandoning them.
The condescending critiques of his recent crossover to pop, rival the Nashville pushback against Taylor Swift. Supposed Biblical purists, (you know, the "Love God, Love people", people), have bent over backwards to take their shots at his motives and his methods. They've dissected his interviews as a lawyer parses a legal document looking for loopholes.
Bell's been maligned for softening the Gospel; for crafting a new age, feel good, bastardized version of Christianity that is theologically neutered and built for mass consumption. He's been vilified and demonized for perverting the message of Jesus to grow his brand.
Baloney.
Bell's been doing something braver than most of the pastors overseeing churches in this country would ever do, yet the same thing that so many in their congregations wish they would do.
He's admitting the real questions that surface in the excavation of deep faith. He's looking to separate what in this religion is of God and what is of us. He's asking why we believe what we believe, and asking believers to do the same.
These are somehow unforgivable offenses to the "forgiving people".
It all illustrates the sad state of the core of Evangelical Christianity in America, and why more and more people outside of it want no part of it.
We've lost the ability to welcome diversity of thought. We've made the Church a members-only club, defined by the narrowest of doctrines and the most rigid understandings of God and Scripture.
We have two religious menu options when it comes to orthodoxy: Totality or Heresy.
The moment that anyone, however prayerful or thoughtful or earnest they may be, comes to a conclusion other than what we've defined as acceptable, they get kicked to the curb. As Christian leaders cling tighter and tighter to a faith tradition that seems less and less culturally relevant, they expel anyone who doesn't check all the right boxes, who doesn't say all the right words in all the right ways using all the right Bible verses.
Bell is no fast food, arm-chair theologian, remember.
He's a Bible geek whose experience with and understanding of the ancient Scriptures was one of the main reasons for his rise in the first place. This wasn't a guy who skimmed the easy passages that most American pastors recycle as part of a limited Sunday morning, Smooth Jazz Jesus playlist. This wasn't someone who preached from the cozy confines of the Creation story, or the Psalms, or the Sermon on the Mount.
This was the pastor who launched his megachurch's first year by working line by line through Leviticus; possibly the most confounding, least user-friendly, most challenging Biblical book to make sense of in our modern culture. Definitely not something a novice would go near.
That's the heart of the problem here. Rob Bell was and is, a bright, reasonable, thoughtful pastor, whose extensive exploration of the Scriptures, and whose life and ministry have yielded for him lots of questions, and some answers that far too many Christians just don't want to deal with.
It isn't as if he suddenly became less knowledgable about the Bible. It's not as though he unlearned everything he ever knew about ancient Greek and Hebrew language. He didn't become less intelligent or less creative or less authentic or less hungry for God.
He's simply reached conclusions that he isn't supposed to reach, and that really pisses off Church people.
Christian leaders, those in your buildings and outside their walls are more like Rob Bell than you may want them to be. They're genuinely looking for God, and they aren't afraid of the difficult questions as they search. They don't run from the tension between what they read in the Bible and what they experience every day. They're looking for a sturdy, useable faith that stands up to scrutiny, and a Church that allows space for grey and gives real grace in it.
They're looking for a faith community that doesn't dismiss and eliminate and destroy those whose conclusions don't all line up neatly with the party line. They want to be part of a people who seek and wrestle and coexist, even in the questions.
They're looking to find Jesus in the way we deal with one another.
I wonder what our response to Rob Bell is teaching them about us.
It's probably not good.
John Pavolich
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/12/10/the-continued-crucifying-of-rob-bell-and-what-it-says-about-the-state-of-modern-christianity/
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 17, 2015, 07:17:29 PM
Why come out of the closet? Why do anything? They don't need to know UR. Them knowing it has no effect on there eternal destiny. So why torment them with heresy, and why subject yourself to misunderstanding and hatred?
Why do anything at all?
Because it's good news to a world that doesn't know it. Why wouldn't we want to share it?
Why do anything at all?
Don't do anything, just enjoy the freedom you have in Christ.
Then the Holy Spirit can use you .
To Jesus be all the Glory.
:cloud9: We are all as trees and have seasons. In all things, I believe we are to be led by the Spirit, making us instant in season and out.
When I come across someone whom the Spirit has prepared their heart to know this revelation, the Spirit in me will practically pull it out of my mouth. Other times, I have tried to bring it up out of season and stumbled and tangled my words so badly it was futile. I learned the hard way (in most things actually, lol) to let the Spirit lead. Resting in Him is not as easy as it sounds. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 18, 2015, 12:13:23 AM
:cloud9: We are all as trees and have seasons. In all things, I believe we are to be led by the Spirit, making us instant in season and out.
When I come across someone whom the Spirit has prepared their heart to know this revelation, the Spirit in me will practically pull it out of my mouth. Other times, I have tried to bring it up out of season and stumbled and tangled my words so badly it was futile. I learned the hard way (in most things actually, lol) to let the Spirit led. Resting in Him is not as easy as it sounds. Blessings....
:dsunny: :cloud9:
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 17, 2015, 08:48:33 PM
Bell's been maligned for softening the Gospel; for crafting a new age, feel good, bastardized version of Christianity that is theologically neutered and built for mass consumption. He's been vilified and demonized for perverting the message of Jesus to grow his brand.
Baloney.
Unfortunately, about the only things I can point to either Rob Bell or Carleton Pearson about to anyone who is considering UR as someone to listen to, is that they've questioned hell. Other than that I believe they've both gone off some deep ends that are not truly helpful.
There are more specifics, but I don't want to hijack the thread, just comment on this as his name has come up a couple of times recently.
:cloud9: @ Jab....I know where you're going with this, and I agree. I've found deep revelations like this tend to have to go through a sort of "pendulum effect." They don't wait and let it settle until balance comes, and so the pendulum swings too far to one direction. Sorta the same as trying to give out bread before it has been "baked" in us. Sadly, sometimes they never let it swing back, and find the straight path. Let's pray they do. Blessings...
jabcat - I understand what you are saying and agree.
I was just making a point on how the so called church attacks its own when they deviate from their perception of truth.
BTW - did you actually read Bells' book? He never really comes out in dogmatic support - he just asks the questions.
But yeah. I get what you are saying, but I support him fwiw.
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 18, 2015, 01:05:24 AM
jabcat - I understand what you are saying and agree.
I was just making a point on how the so called church attacks its own when they deviate from their perception of truth.
BTW - did you actually read Bells' book? He never really comes out in dogmatic support - he just asks the questions.
But yeah. I get what you are saying, but I support him fwiw.
In my original longer post I agreed with you about his questioning hell no doubt brought knee-jerk reaction from many, so in essence I was agreeing with you about that. I just deleted much of my comments to keep from hijacking, and that was one of them. Should have left it in there.
I know his MO in his book was to question/suggest/explore. Probably my main concerns have come AFTER his book, with some of the theological positions he's taken and some specific quotes regarding his apparent distrust and disrespect of the scriptures (paraphrase - "we're in trouble if our main defense is 2,000 year old letters", and "we can't just do what the Bible says..it needs to be constantly reinterpreted"; the inclusivity of others from other religions as already saved, i.e., what he calls "good people" (he's now Oprah's "spiritual adviser" [thus perhaps part of the New Age accusations?]). If he'd stopped at Love Wins we might not be discussing this right now. But IMO, like so many others (myself included) when we begin to question orthodox interpretations and traditions, we best be truly open and honest with the Holy Spirit as to when to stop and where to hang our hat, so we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater (end up apostate, "I'm OK, you're OK, it's all in the mind", etc., etc.). :2c:
IMO, questioning hell and "what happens" is worthwhile and can be God-led. :thumbsup: But I've also experienced the danger. I believe by our traditions we can make the Word of God of no effect - that's part of why we're all here. But I also believe by our imaginations and descent into deceit we can
also make the Word of God of no effect -
not why we're here.
Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2015, 01:27:46 AM
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 18, 2015, 01:05:24 AM
jabcat - I understand what you are saying and agree.
I was just making a point on how the so called church attacks its own when they deviate from their perception of truth.
BTW - did you actually read Bells' book? He never really comes out in dogmatic support - he just asks the questions.
But yeah. I get what you are saying, but I support him fwiw.
In my original longer post I agreed with you about his questioning hell no doubt brought knee-jerk reaction from many, so in essence I was agreeing with you about that. I just deleted much of my comments to keep from hijacking, and that was one of them. Should have left it in there.
I know his MO in his book was to question/suggest/explore. Probably my main concerns have come AFTER his book, with some of the theological positions he's taken and some specific quotes regarding his apparent distrust and disrespect of the scriptures (paraphrase - "we're in trouble if our main defense is 2,000 year old letters", and "we can't just do what the Bible says..it needs to be constantly reinterpreted"; the inclusivity of others from other religions as already saved, i.e., what he calls "good people" (he's now Oprah's "spiritual adviser" [thus perhaps part of the New Age accusations?]). If he'd stopped at Love Wins we might not be discussing this right now. But IMO, like so many others (myself included) when we begin to question orthodox interpretations and traditions, we best be truly open and honest with the Holy Spirit as to when to stop and where to hang our hat, so we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater (end up apostate, "I'm OK, you're OK, it's all in the mind", etc., etc.). :2c:
IMO, questioning hell and "what happens" is worthwhile and can be God-led. :thumbsup: But I've also experienced the danger. I believe by our traditions we can make the Word of God of no effect - that's part of why we're all here. But I also believe by our imaginations and descent into deceit we can also make the Word of God of no effect - not why we're here.
Blessings.
Great point Jabcat. You see I have had no other exposure to the man other than his book Love Wins. I have not followed any of his dealings after the book and was not aware of any of the things you posted above. Of course I would not support that sort of thing. Gone off the deep end it seems? Anyway. If we rewind to when the book was written (which was all I know about him) I thought it was sad how that went down with the church.
Thanks for bringing me up to speed though. I thank you for that.
:) :2thumbs:
Just as grace is an excuse for licentiousness for some..... Some will use the message of UR to throw off the bonds of scripture, even where those bonds are for our edification and protection. In 40 years of faith and ministry I have seen that there is no good thing that some person will not subvert for their own profit and glory.
I am not sayng that Rob Bell has done that... I really don't know why he is doing what he is doing.
When someone questions the interpretation of the scriptures they do not bother me.
When someone relegates the scriptures to "old letters", now that bothers me.
There is a definite pull, like a pendulum swing, to go too far in the other direction, when ever we are coming out of some misunderstanding.
Let everyone work out his own salvation in awe and reverence.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 19, 2015, 04:55:07 AM
Just as grace is an excuse for licentiousness for some..... Some will use the message of UR to throw off the bonds of scripture, even where those bonds are for our edification and protection. In 40 years of faith and ministry I have seen that there is no good thing that some person will not subvert for their own profit and glory.
I am not sayng that Rob Bell has done that... I really don't know why he is doing what he is doing.
When someone questions the interpretation of the scriptures they do not bother me.
When someone relegates the scriptures to "old letters", now that bothers me.
There is a definite pull, like a pendulum swing, to go too far in the other direction, when ever we are coming out of some misunderstanding.
Let everyone work out his own salvation in awe and reverence.
I agree. I should have been more clear about the context of "we have to constantly be re-interpreting the scriptures". The context was, what was the culture/accepted norms at the time, and if it still applies to us today. Even
more specifically, what the Bible (New Testament) clearly says is sin, within our current culture we should now accept as being OK - despite what the "outdated" scriptures say. I guess we'd need to ask Rob to be sure why he says we should now accept clear sin, but is it because now we're "more enlightened" and "things change so we need to change with it" (again, "we can't just do what the Bible says")? Anyway, that's the understanding for me in what he was saying within context, but only he could say for sure.
:cloud9: I've seen the fruit of this around here when the concept of His unconditional love was realized, and in a way UR is the end fruit of this and so I think the same thing applies. What happened here was, there were some who took that and ran with it (pendulum again) and then the "I'm ok, you're ok" attitude hit and all kinds of sin was ignored because, after all, "we wouldn't be walking in unconditional love if we didn't".
But what they forgot is, after Jesus spared the woman taken in adultery (representative of all us as souls who have joined ourselves to other gods), He said, go and sin no more. That was a commandment from God, not a suggestion! My :2c: Blessings....
Yes Card.
I was thinking about this some more this morning, trying to think of how to even better explain the "constantly reinterpret scripture"...my take-away is, the idea presented in context was not "interpret it correctly", which I agree we should attempt to do. But it seemed to me it was more of a keep RE-interpreting based on the times/culture, what fits "today" rather than relying on "2,000 year old outdated letters". IMO, RELATIVISM - which I basically reject. I see it more as proper application, whatever that may mean or cost us - not "what do I want it to say today to fit how I/we want to live". :2c:
:cloud9: Exactly. But they don't realize is, for something to be eternal it has to by nature have spiritual meaning, for only the Spirit is eternal, the flesh withers like grass. Sin, which is also a noun, a principality, not just an action verb, being spirit, is also side by side with the eternal One, to provide a choice, until He decides game over. So the sin would have to be the same principle today as it was 2000 years ago, or 500 years ago, not time relevant at all.
This principle was shown to me one day when I was pondering the meaning behind not dressing in women's clothes if you're a man, or vice versa with women, as in, could I really be expected to not wear slacks? It occurred to me then, it couldn't be as cut and dried as it sounds, because after all, back in Jesus's time period, men wore what, to our standards today, would amount to a woman's long dress.
What hit me was, the sin was not in the garments themselves, it was in the motive of the heart in wearing them, ie. trying to change what God made them via their clothing choices. It's a form of deception and rebellion, one that's rampant today. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 19, 2015, 06:55:16 PM
:cloud9: Exactly. But they don't realize is, for something to be eternal it has to by nature have spiritual meaning, for only the Spirit is eternal, the flesh withers like grass. Sin, which is also a noun, a principality, not just an action verb, being spirit, is also side by side with the eternal One, to provide a choice, until He decides game over. So the sin would have to be the same principle today as it was 2000 years ago, or 500 years ago, not time relevant at all.
This principle was shown to me one day when I was pondering the meaning behind not dressing in women's clothes if you're a man, or vice versa with women, as in, could I really be expected to not wear slacks? It occurred to me then, it couldn't be as cut and dried as it sounds, because after all, back in Jesus's time period, men wore what, to our standards today, would amount to a woman's long dress.
What hit me was, the sin was not in the garments themselves, it was in the motive of the heart in wearing them, ie. trying to change what God made them via their clothing choices. It's a form of deception and rebellion, one that's rampant today. My :2c: Blessings....
Hi Cardinal,
About the dress code: There are a few Churches that really frown on a woman wearing pants. My daughter in law for instance, I don't believe I have ever seen her wear a pair of pants. Adam and Eve wore fig leaves, then God made them coats of skin. I think these garments looked pretty much the same. I read of some men in the Bible wearing skirts,or kilts. The laymen of today I don't believe, ever think about what was worn back in the Old Testament days, they just apply the scriptures to today without searching to see if it actually applies to us today. I think the dress code has been switched from what it use to be.
CHB
I'm beating around the bush, trying to not bring up a specific topic that's been hammered to death here lately - making more of a general point as fits the thread. The specific issue in question with Rob Bell was not about things like dress, length of hair, etc. It was a specific sexual sin that Paul clearly taught about, instructing the church that is a vile sin (in line with murder, adultery, fornication, etc.) with dire consequences - and he was saying the church is about ready to embrace it today, and indicating that's OK, that we shouldn't rely on outdated ideas from "the Bible that needs constantly reinterpreted to fit the times".
Wadif, any time you want to pull this thread back on topic go for it. This is what our discussions tend to do when enough ideas are presented that we can shoot off in different directions with. :hijacked: :grin:
:cloud9: Hi CHB....good to see you on here again!
I know there are churches that demand it. I'm saying it doesn't apply the WAY they are trying to apply it.
This was one of the first things the Lord taught me on, because I was under pressure when I first came to Him, because where I was going didn't want me to wear slacks or makeup (but they were more lenient on makeup, lol, because the pastor said he never saw an old barn that didn't look better with a coat of paint-no joke!).
So He gave me the above reasoning and I went back in and told the person who tried to bring me into line the very next week. Of course, can you quess what He did to me the next week? I tried to get dressed normally in slacks, and I couldn't, I was grieving the Spirit. I was like, "What?! You just told me I didn't have to dress like this, last week!"
So what came was that the point was to be instant in season and out, obedience is better than sacrifice. If I was willing to obey what He told me one week, why not if He decided something different the next week for His own purposes? So it turned out to be two weeks of dressing as they did, no make-up. I didn't have any idea how long it would last, or if it was permanent. It didn't matter, what did matter was doing what He said to do.
Once that was established in my heart, I was free to dress according to my own desires. The exception was when I went to another such church, and of my own free will, I dressed like them, so as not to be a stumbling block to my brethren should He decide to use me with them in some way. This is how His laws are written on our hearts.
He showed me this is where the Jews missed it when He appeared in a different way, and where we all miss Him from time to time. He wants us to be LED, but we want to walk in the comfort and FAMILIARITY of what He did yesterday.
It's the same thing as when the Israelites fornicated under every green tree. Green speaks of life. They saw the life of the Spirit in something, and they wanted it to be there in that same way every single time, and so joined themselves to something had no life in it anymore, because the Spirit had moved on. The Spirit moves to makes US move. My :2c:....blessings....
good stuff you're sharing,Bex
Quote from: jabcat on August 19, 2015, 07:37:50 PM
Wadif, any time you want to pull this thread back on topic go for it. This is what our discussions tend to do when enough ideas are presented that we can shoot off in different directions with. :hijacked: :grin:
I am not sure what the topic is, and I have looked all around and do not see the topic police any where. And if they show up they just might say "Wednesday is freedom from the topic laws day. Sin on!"
Fascinating stuff. I'm all ears.
I noticed we were stuck at 666 views so I am just here once more specifically to wage war on the beast. I think he's gone.
As you were...
:laughing7:
:cloud9: Threads have a life of their own sometimes. We try to stay on topic, but one thing leads to another leads to another leads to.....well, you know..... :winkgrin:
Now we ARE off topic thanks to me.
So what are other scriptures that can not be anything but cultural? I mean you have provided perspective I have never once heard or thought of in my entire life. By our standards Jesus And the apostles wore dresses!!! Well I never... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :thumbsup: (it's Jesus and the twelve)
So ok, that was a lame attempt. How about this:
Some of Jesus' followers carried swords, so do you think Rob Bell should carry a sword???
Just kidding. Well, kind of.
Please pretend I never posted.
To the pure all things are pure. Period. End of statement.
On your mark, get set, go!!
:cloud9: Love your sense of humor..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 03:24:20 AM
To the pure all things are pure. Period. End of statement.
On your mark, get set, go!!
Is this.where the Benny Hill music starts?
Quote from: Seth on August 20, 2015, 03:55:25 AM
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 03:24:20 AM
To the pure all things are pure. Period. End of statement.
On your mark, get set, go!!
Is this.where the Benny Hill music starts?
joke or troll? IDK...... :dunno2:
Playing along
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 20, 2015, 04:25:25 AM
Quote from: Seth on August 20, 2015, 03:55:25 AM
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 03:24:20 AM
To the pure all things are pure. Period. End of statement.
On your mark, get set, go!!
Is this.where the Benny Hill music starts?
joke or troll? IDK...... :dunno2:
If a guy has to explain his joke, I suppose it would be considered a failure. And I was so excited that Cardinal understood it. I think maybe Seth got it but I would probably need to find out who Benny Hill is to know for sure. I wish I was good at being funny because you guys really need to lighten up in here once in a while. With beliefs like you have I thought I would find a non-stop joy festival going on.
It seems like I am the only one who enjoys laughter. And I am the only one here who might be going into the lake of fire. I'm trying to figure that out.
When you hear the Benny Hill music you'll get it...I think
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 07:32:51 AM
And I am the only one here who might be going to hell. I'm trying to figure that out.
[/quote]
lol - news flash - there is no hell, just restorative punishment.
Ok. I revised it to "lake of fire." I hope it has trout.
Actually, we do get quite funny from time to time: :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH:
Um, how about this:
"Hey, waiter, there's a fly in my soup!"
[waiter takes a look]
"Can't be - we used them all in the raisin bread!"
I laughed. Thank you!
Did you hear the pope got bird flu?
He caught it from the cardinals.
Bada-boom!
What kind of man was Boaz before he got married?
Ruth-less.
:laugh:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2015, 05:10:05 PM
:laugh:
I got a million of them:
Who was the greatest female financier in the Bible?
Pharaoh's daughter--she went down to the bank of the Nile and drew out a
little prophet.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2015, 05:28:18 PM
:thumbsup:
What kind of motor vehicles are in the Bible?
1. Jehovah drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden in a
Fury. (Plymouth Fury?)
2. David's
Triumph was heard throughout the land.
3.
Honda... because the apostles were all in one
Accord.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 05:00:52 PM
I laughed. Thank you!
Did you hear the pope got bird flu?
He caught it from the cardinals.
AHEM..... :Chinscratch:
:LH:
"Why did you name your baby Zondervan?"
"Because I wanted to give him a Biblical name..."
Quote from: Shev on August 20, 2015, 07:27:36 PM
"Why did you name your baby Zondervan?"
"Because I wanted to give him a Biblical name..."
:Chinscratch:
:LH:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2015, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 05:00:52 PM
I laughed. Thank you!
Did you hear the pope got bird flu?
He caught it from the cardinals.
AHEM..... :Chinscratch:
:LH:
I think of that joke every time I see your name for some reason. From the very first post I was hoping that God had pre-destined me to tell you that joke. Praise The Lord. He did.
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 20, 2015, 05:08:08 PM
What kind of man was Boaz before he got married?
Ruth-less.
You guys are killing me. It's a fun day.
I think you better find out what Joshua has to say about David riding his bike though. :eek:
My dad told me this one but you might have heard it.
Three guys golfing. First one hits it over the fairway and into the water trap. The water parts and he walks down on the dry land and hits the ball up onto the green and it is a par 4 hole.
Second Guy, same thing: over the fairway right to the pond. But the ball doesn't sink. So he walks on top of the water and hits it up onto the green and it slowly rolls into the hole.
Third guy, very old, but hits the ball HARD. It just sails way over the fairway, over the pond and out of sight in the distance faster than a fighter jet. The other two guys just look at each other. Then they hear a sound like a jet coming from behind. It's the golf ball. It sails past them and slams into the pond. But up jumps a fish with the ball in his mouth, down swoops an eagle who picks up the fish and flys over the green where the ball drops out of the fishes mouth and directly into the hole. Nuthin' but net.
Moses looks at Jesus and Just shakes his head. Jesus turns and says "dad if you don't quit showing off we are leaving you home next time.
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 09:01:22 PM
My dad told me this one but you might have heard it.
Three guys golfing. First one hits it over the fairway and into the water trap. The water parts and he walks down on the dry land and hits the ball up onto the green and it is a par 4 hole.
Second Guy, same thing: over the fairway right to the pond. But the ball doesn't sink. So he walks on top of the water and hits it up onto the green and it slowly rolls into the hole.
Third guy, very old, but hits the ball HARD. It just sails way over the fairway, over the pond and out of sight in the distance faster than a fighter jet. The other two guys just look at each other. Then they hear a sound like a jet coming from behind. It's the golf ball. It sails past them and slams into the pond. But up jumps a fish with the ball in his mouth, down swoops an eagle who picks up the fish and flys over the green where the ball drops out of the fishes mouth and directly into the hole. Nuthin' but net.
Moses looks at Jesus and Just shakes his head. Jesus turns and says "dad if you don't quit showing off we are leaving you home next time.
bah haw haw haw haw But God is Perfect - would he show off? :mock: :punish:
Of course God wouldn't show off; being perfect. It was just Jesus' perception that was imp... Woops, oh wait a minute. I take it back, please, I didn't mean it. Off to the lake of fire guys. Gotta go
Quote from: Wadif I.M. Rong on August 20, 2015, 09:40:13 PM
Of course God wouldn't show off; being perfect. It was just Jesus' perception that was imp... Woops, oh wait a minute. I take it back, please, I didn't mean it. Off to the lake of fire guys. Gotta go
Here - wear this:
(http://www.macronsafety.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/c56438956073d445ecf1fb001fab99f6/c/p/cpa-aluminized-fire-proximity-suit.jpg)
Bring this guy with you, you'll be fine
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/28/e3/a5/28e3a5c557c73d7b4f2e143c39eb44f3.jpg)
lol @ :mock: seth. That joker is gunna melt seth! :LH: