"Sort by same/sort by different

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

"...one can study the Bible to accept or to reject it's truths.  The difference largely lies in what one seeks to find in the Bible."  Samuel Bacchiocchi, PHD

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

"...there is a different Jesus for each sect, estimated at 41,000 and increasing. Each sect takes a subset of the scriptures and creates their own image of God and Jesus And then worships it, all based on their own collective opinions as to which scriptures are invalid and which ones they think give eternal life."  Hall V Worthington

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

"...there is a different Jesus for each sect, estimated at 41,000 and increasing. Each sect takes a subset of the scriptures and creates their own image of God and Jesus And then worships it, all based on their own collective opinions as to which scriptures are invalid and which ones they think give eternal life."  Hall V Worthington

Continued from above quote:

"...but all the scriptures are valid; and if you have to ignore any that conflict with your understanding, you don't really understand the ones you think you do."

Hall V. W. Really had my attention. And of course, out of those 41,000 sects, which one do you suppose he thinks is right leaving 40,999 to be wrong?  I won't even say it.

Then he quoted the two greatest commandments mentioning that they were in the Ten Commandments. (They are not). (Duet 6:5, Lev 19:18). And then I realized why he doesn't have to ignore any scriptures that conflict with his understanding.  And I turn around, hang my head, and walk down the street alone.

[jabcat]

Don't lose heart.  God has a perfect "end-game".  God's in control.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/what-a-mess/msg138864/#msg138864

may we always keep as a touchstone a basic simplicity of the Gospel (Good News);

"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Jab....that is unequivocally the only foundation and capstone of the whole building. As long as we hang onto that, everything else is just details, so to speak.   :winkgrin:

[micah7:9]

Do not worry brother Wadif I.M. Rong, HE WILL FIND YOU.
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, and losing one of them, is not leaving the ninety-nine in the wilderness and is going after the lost one, till he may be finding it? :dsunny:

[HungerForTruth]

WhadIF - you are my new best friend on this board.  You keep seeking Him and He will reveal himself.

As you know, I come from a reformed Calvanistic background.  Having UR revealed to me gives me these thoughts: Dogmatic Theology divides the body of Christ.  Christ draws us unto Himself.  Only in Him will we find unity.

On of the pluses in the UR camp is - it is an inclusive doctrine that desires to draw ALL together.  The other camps are exclusive.   I believe that is why UR is so misunderstood and hated. 

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

On of the pluses in the UR camp is - it is an inclusive doctrine that desires to draw ALL together.  The other camps are exclusive.   I believe that is why UR is so misunderstood and hated.

You are hated?!?! Really? 

Wow. I might be able to join you after all.

I figured no one would hate people who tell them they have eternal life with Jesus no matter what they do.

One reason I am knowing my beliefs are not correct is that no one hates me or persecutes me or throws me out of the "synagogues".  Everybody loves me.  :cloud9:

("Off, wrong, or missing": the missing persecution).

If hate is happening to you, you gotta be closer to the truth than I am.

Now, I don't really think that any sort by same bretheren and sisteren are loosing any sleep over the fact that they are not being persecuted. But in case there is one, hopefully I have been able to bless you in that way.  Mt 5:10-12. "...rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven"

(John 15:18f; 16:1-4; 17:14-18; 2tim 3:12)

Thank you guys for the kind and encouraging replys. They have meant more than you know.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

I was driving along pondering what in the world people could possibly hate you for.
Then it hit me. It's the folks whose only comfort left in this world is the hope that their mother in law or ex-wife would eventually burn in hell. 

Come to think of it. I hate you too.  :LH:

You can thank me later. (Mt 5:10-12)

[Aerex]

I think 9/10 people will hate you for believing in universal reconciliation because it puts everything they believe out of whack like the Pharisee felt about Jesus.

[sheila]

when the accusor of the brethern..who accuse them night and day before God..is thrown out of heaven=loses his position/Judas rep

of the jews that handed Jesus over to the romans to be put to death..also losing their position in the kingdom to the rightful heir.

  finding themselves thrown to the earth...they began persecuting those who had the testimony of Jesus Christ.

   it being no longer lawful to kill..since sabbath rest of man in Christ had come/being only lawful to heal....thus the lawless one

being revealed..as the great sabbath breaker.  That man be able to rest,along with Christ and God..in the finished work.

   Jesus kept them..through that day and hour[atonement=day and hour of praying and fasting/the fast of refraining from pointing the

the finger and striking with the fists..the approved fast...[judge not lest ye be judged]  the Father and I judge no man

   purge me with hyssop..blood on the doorpost....the betrayl with His sop

   atonement day...sheep/goats..sort by different....if sheep are men..what does the goat represent? further divide by different lots

   the Lord's goat and Azazel's..............remember He took on the appearance of sin...and we are healed by His stripes..cleansed

by His blood....

[sheila]

well,Rong...their falling a little short of loving their fellow man as themselves....of.the fullness that is in Christ.   we have all had

some growing up to do in Christ.

[sheila]

 letter to church of Philadelphia[brotherly love.]....I will cause those who say they are jews[spiritual]..but are not...but are liars and

synogog of satan[accusors of the brethern/saying Jesus sacrifice did not forgive their sins,too]  fall down at your feet and

acknowledge that I have loved you[God/Jesus love all men/take away all sin].

[ed]

On of the pluses in the UR camp is - it is an inclusive doctrine that desires to draw ALL together.  The other camps are exclusive.   I believe that is why UR is so misunderstood and hated.

You are hated?!?! Really? 

Wow. I might be able to join you after all.

I figured no one would hate people who tell them they have eternal life with Jesus no matter what they do.

One reason I am knowing my beliefs are not correct is that no one hates me or persecutes me or throws me out of the "synagogues".  Everybody loves me.  :cloud9:

("Off, wrong, or missing": the missing persecution).

If hate is happening to you, you gotta be closer to the truth than I am.

Religion persecutes.

Getting thrown out of the synagogue is done by the sectarian(heresy) discrimination.

It is not a hard thing to do and get if that is what you want.  Most of us keep our doctrines from being found out by those who have the power to cast you out................

Then we leave quietly or not so quietly.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Makes no sense at all that people would hate you for telling them the truly good news, does it? But it's because revenge is in their hearts and they want a God of revenge hellfire, ie. one made in THEIR image.

And pride is there telling them how much better they are than those that they are ok with sending there. So you "smack" pride with the truth and revenge kicks in....towards YOU, just like it did Jesus.  :eek:

I've noticed people that have overcome some things and remained loving in their attitude in general, seem to be able to receive it and not get all bent out of shape over losing a doctrine their heart didn't witness to anyway. Blessings....

[HungerForTruth]

Religious people Hate the doctrine of UR Whadif.  People in a position of authority the preach ET will label you a heretic for if they agreed with you they would loose their jobs.  Yeah. 

Cardinal makes a great point.  One VERY educated in woman I know what is a staunch Arminian, listened to my wife explain UR.  She said "hell never resonated with me or made sense.  This is the first time I have heard this.  What a great thing if it is true."

She didn't gloriously convert but she is open.

I remember when Rob Bells book came out, the pastor at the church I fellowship with and my son (who is an associate pastor there) were making fun of and ridiculing Rob Bells' book _ LOVE WINS.  I had no idea what they were talking about at the time.  Now I know. 

I feel I will get the same treatment when I come out of the closet (UR) with them.  But you never know.  I am praying for wisdom and the preparation of their hearts.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Why come out of the closet? Why do anything? They don't need to know UR. Them knowing it has no effect on there eternal destiny. So why torment them with heresy, and why subject yourself to misunderstanding and hatred?

Why do anything at all?

[HungerForTruth]

Why come out of the closet? Why do anything? They don't need to know UR. Them knowing it has no effect on there eternal destiny. So why torment them with heresy, and why subject yourself to misunderstanding and hatred?

You are bringing me very close to some of my philosophical issues with this discipline. But I think I should probably put them on the thread where you gave history on Calvin. Because it is closely tied.

Interesting.  I wonder why the defense of their doctrine makes them hateful and angry?  It is like: "Believe like me or burn in hell!"  Very exclusive.  Very un-gracious.  I think DOGMATIC doctrine divides.  But Christ is not divided.  So where is the Christ in that?

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Think about it. Their way of loving people is to save and protect them from anything that will keep those beloved children of God out of heaven.  Things like heretical teaching could do. Things like you.
Who keeps people out of heaven?  Satan does. You do.  Hmmmm

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

I am just trying to guess at why you would be hated. To me it is a shock that you are. Christ said all who followed him would be. I have never been, that I could tell. Deductive reasoning would say I have never followed Christ. Maybe you have.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

He didn't say "everyone who is hated is following me".  So don't think you got me that easily. Hahaha.
But you met one criteria.   :gimmefive:

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

I used the words "heretic" and "heretical". That may be too strong. So I am asking if that is how orthodox Christianity views you. ? 

Again, being branded a heretic does not necessarily mean you are correct. But it puts you in company with many who we now revere as having been right.  Folks like that Jesus fellow.

[HungerForTruth]

Whadif:  Do you remember when Rob Bells book came out?  If yes - was there a reaction to that in the body there?

Check out this article I read online.  It sort of expands a lot of my point.  I posted the link at the bottom:


The Continued Crucifying Of Rob Bell, And What It Says About The State Of Modern Christianity

December 10, 2014 / johndpav   
 


RobBell

It's often been said that we Christians eat our own.

This unsettling expression is all-too true, and apparently Rob Bell is on the menu yet again.

For a people whose go-to ideas are love for God and love for others, we Jesus folk are often pretty horrible toward one another, especially to those of us who attain any sort of position in the larger culture.

Oh sure, we'll root like crazy for them to reach the masses on their way up, but once they do, we'll as willingly and passionately go about the work of ripping them from their lofty positions; discrediting them, ridiculing them, shaming and shunning them in the process.

In the Church, as in so many other spheres of life, we love to love you when your star is rising, and few in modern times have risen faster or higher.

A decade ago, Rob Bell was a flat-out Christian Rock Star.

He was the guy on the conference speaker circuit, his megachurch Mars Hill Bible Church was a blockbuster, and his thought-provoking short films were staples of every young adult ministry in the country. He was known as a wise, engaging, creative, articulate teacher of the Bible; someone who was speaking about Jesus with a fresh voice that people in and outside of the Church resonated with.

He had a rabid army of fellow believers who hung on every word he uttered, who lapped-up every morsel he tossed them, who cheered him on like a local kid making the Bigs.

For a while, it was a Christian Bubble love fest.

Then something happened.

Rob Bell sinned.

But his offense wasn't a moral lapse of any kind. It wasn't an abuse of power or a sexual transgression or some financial misdeed, or any sort of ministry impropriety. (These had been, and continue to be the hallmark of so many Evangelical leaders, so that would be natural to assume).

Rob Bell's sin, was simply that he didn't stick to the script.

He deviated. He dared to ask questions. He challenged the status quo. He moved against the grain.

He went rogue and everything went South, (or rather, went to Hell).

The relationship turned toxic when Bell wrote a book called Love Wins, in which he challenged the idea of Hell; a seemingly untouchable, immoveable pillar of the Christian worldview. He asked a ton of really natural questions about reconciling eternal punishment with a loving God, and he examined matters of life and faith that had become foregone conclusions to most believers.

In the now infamous and pivotal volume that caused the Church to break-up with him, Bell didn't give many answers. He only asked people, to ask the questions. He invited inquisition.

In our modern Evangelical Christian subculture, well that's simply not something we tolerate, and it wasn't long before Rob Bell was being crucified by his peers.

Pastors began stepping over one another to speak out against his dangerous teachings.
Bloggers churned out post after post lamenting his tragic, heretical detours.
Conferences stopped booking him, well-known allies began distancing themselves, and before too long Bell was a virtual leper to his own community; the same community that had carried him proudly to prominence just months earlier.

Rob Bell became a dirty word in church circles; a punchline, a pariah.

As so often happens in the modern Church, he was intentionally and mercilessly pushed to the margins of the Christian community, just a few feet from irrelevance. There he would be left to languish for a few months before hopefully dissolving into obscurity.

Only Bell didn't do what his critics wanted.

He didn't tearfully repent and beg to get his club membership renewed.
He didn't fade into oblivion.
He didn't fall apart or fight back.

As so many of his brethren mercilessly attacked him, he simply turned around, stepped out through the dust-covered doors of the suffocating Christian bubble, and spoke to those who would still listen.

It turns out, there are a lot of people still listening.

Bell's resurgence has come at the hands of worldwide media mogul Oprah Winfrey, who has given Bell a prominent position on her network, and provided him a new and massive platform; the kind that most Christian leaders, bloggers, and writers would give up houses, kids, and arms for, if they're honest with themselves.

And this has brought the venom-peddlers out of the woodwork once again. The same Christian people who treated him so horribly, now act like he's abandoning them.

The condescending critiques of his recent crossover to pop, rival the Nashville pushback against Taylor Swift. Supposed Biblical purists, (you know, the "Love God, Love people", people), have bent over backwards to take their shots at his motives and his methods. They've dissected his interviews as a lawyer parses a legal document looking for loopholes.

Bell's been maligned for softening the Gospel; for crafting a new age, feel good, bastardized version of Christianity that is theologically neutered and built for mass consumption. He's been vilified and demonized for perverting the message of Jesus to grow his brand.

Baloney.

Bell's been doing something braver than most of the pastors overseeing churches in this country would ever do, yet the same thing that so many in their congregations wish they would do.

He's admitting the real questions that surface in the excavation of deep faith. He's looking to separate what in this religion is of God and what is of us. He's asking why we believe what we believe, and asking believers to do the same.

These are somehow unforgivable offenses to the "forgiving people".

It all illustrates the sad state of the core of Evangelical Christianity in America, and why more and more people outside of it want no part of it.

We've lost the ability to welcome diversity of thought. We've made the Church a members-only club, defined by the narrowest of doctrines and the most rigid understandings of God and Scripture.

We have two religious menu options when it comes to orthodoxy: Totality or Heresy.

The moment that anyone, however prayerful or thoughtful or earnest they may be, comes to a conclusion other than what we've defined as acceptable, they get kicked to the curb. As Christian leaders cling tighter and tighter to a faith tradition that seems less and less culturally relevant, they expel anyone who doesn't check all the right boxes, who doesn't say all the right words in all the right ways using all the right Bible verses.

Bell is no fast food, arm-chair theologian, remember.

He's a Bible geek whose experience with and understanding of the ancient Scriptures was one of the main reasons for his rise in the first place. This wasn't a guy who skimmed the easy passages that most American pastors recycle as part of a limited Sunday morning, Smooth Jazz Jesus playlist. This wasn't someone who preached from the cozy confines of the Creation story, or the Psalms, or the Sermon on the Mount.

This was the pastor who launched his megachurch's first year by working line by line through Leviticus; possibly the most confounding, least user-friendly, most challenging Biblical book to make sense of in our modern culture. Definitely not something a novice would go near.

That's the heart of the problem here. Rob Bell was and is, a bright, reasonable, thoughtful pastor, whose extensive exploration of the Scriptures, and whose life and ministry have yielded for him lots of questions, and some answers that far too many Christians just don't want to deal with.

It isn't as if he suddenly became less knowledgable about the Bible. It's not as though he unlearned everything he ever knew about ancient Greek and Hebrew language. He didn't become less intelligent or less creative or less authentic or less hungry for God.

He's simply reached conclusions that he isn't supposed to reach, and that really pisses off Church people.

Christian leaders, those in your buildings and outside their walls are more like Rob Bell than you may want them to be. They're genuinely looking for God, and they aren't afraid of the difficult questions as they search. They don't run from the tension between what they read in the Bible and what they experience every day. They're looking for a sturdy, useable faith that stands up to scrutiny, and a Church that allows space for grey and gives real grace in it.

They're looking for a faith community that doesn't dismiss and eliminate and destroy those whose conclusions don't all line up neatly with the party line. They want to be part of a people who seek and wrestle and coexist, even in the questions.

They're looking to find Jesus in the way we deal with one another.

I wonder what our response to Rob Bell is teaching them about us.

It's probably not good.

John Pavolich


http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/12/10/the-continued-crucifying-of-rob-bell-and-what-it-says-about-the-state-of-modern-christianity/

[Seth]

Why come out of the closet? Why do anything? They don't need to know UR. Them knowing it has no effect on there eternal destiny. So why torment them with heresy, and why subject yourself to misunderstanding and hatred?

Why do anything at all?

Because it's good news to a world that doesn't know it. Why wouldn't we want to share it?

[dajomaco]

Why do anything at all?

Don't do anything, just enjoy the freedom you have in Christ.
Then the Holy Spirit can use you .
To Jesus be all the Glory.