Isn't the word Easter a mistranslated word? I thought passover is the word pasha or something like it. Isn't it (pasha) translated 28 times 'passover' and once 'easter'. If so why do we pick up on the one mistranslated word and use it adinfinitum?
Maybe I'm all wrong here.
cp
Don't think you're wrong, bro. It's my understanding as well that the correct translation is passover...I easter came from some of the same sources as 'hell', and yeah, we just keep using it. I try to say "what they call easter" or "so-called easter", etc., then if anyone asks what I mean, there's an opportunity to share :thumbsup:.
I do the same jab but it baffles me why people don't think this is a big deal. I mean Pastors and teachers of all sorts use this erroneous word, this pagan word, to describe the most powerful and holy of all events. We are instructed to use sound words by Scripture yet we totally ignore this. Why?
I don't want to be picky here. I think this reflects on how people evalutate things and formulate beliefs. They are not formed on rational sound things but upon deeply rooted traditions, no matter how anti-Scriputural or God defaming. This baffles me because I know people who love God way more than I do and knowingly use this word even though they know it's not right and actually even misleading.
cp
:cloud9: Easter came from Ishtar, a pagan goddess. The RCC tried to bring in as much paganism as they could so the masses would be easier to convert if they weren't giving up anything. Blessings....
I think it's the veil...we're all veiled to some extent, God has chosen to lift it more for some than others. Maybe part of our job is to raise awareness, including that pattern of sound words.
I hear ya but that veil must be mighty thick because I have patiently and as lovingly as possible explained it to several Christian friends and actually I should say some of my friends have heard and you know what, now that I think of it, it is the Pastors and leaders, some who are personal friends too, but it is they who either cannnot or will not budge. Jobs are on the line I know but I think they could broach this most important error in such a way as to come off heros but they don't.
Like I said it really waters down the Truth when they have such obvious errors in place that they actually PROTECT. It makes you wonder what else they are hiding.
Their fortifacations are crumbling, me thinks.
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 11, 2009, 09:05:28 PM
I hear ya but that veil must be mighty thick because I have patiently and as lovingly as possible explained it to several Christian friends and actually I should say some of my friends have heard and you know what, now that I think of it, it is the Pastors and leaders, some who are personal friends too, but it is they who either cannnot or will not budge. Jobs are on the line I know but I think they could broach this most important error in such a way as to come off heros but they don't.
Like I said it really waters down the Truth when they have such obvious errors in place that they actually PROTECT. It makes you wonder what else they are hiding.
Their fortifacations are crumbling, me thinks.
cp
It must be a tricky deal. I have shared with a local pastor several times, and it almost seems as if he's hardened his stance. Also shared with a good friend of mine...he seemed to 'get it' briefly, but is now back to saying "church", uses "easter", etc. Maybe the physical ears can hear it, the carnal mind can at least partially process it, but unless God does a real work of enlightenment in the spirit, orthodoxy maintains its hold :dontknow:. I just look at it as part of God's whole plan, the whole Dark Ages thing of orthodox veiling, mistranslations, God now calling many out and unveiling, and for us to keep "charging and teaching these things" as Paul said wrt "Jesus, Savior of all men"...it is very frustrating for me if I don't look at it this way. Otherwise, I want to control, and I realize I need to continue "killing" that part of my personality. I think you hit it on the head with "fortifications are crumbling", and I believe that fits with the above. However, apparently many won't be shown in this lifetime, though many increasingly are ("come out of her, my people"). My :2c:.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
I hear ya jab. In the beginning all is chaso and void but the light does come!!! Indeed it does!
Thanks for your words and your input too card. I have fought this particular battle for so many years that I was starting to wonder if I was right or off track. You both helped me think I am still a bit sane!
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 11, 2009, 10:11:05 PM
I hear ya jab. In the beginning all is chaso and void but the light does come!!! Indeed it does!
Thanks for your words and your input too card. I have fought this particular battle for so many years that I was starting to wonder if I was right or off track. You both helped me think I am still a bit sane!
cp
:gthumbsup: :gimmefive:
To me, it's not a big deal because of Colossians 2. What concerns me are the people that often claim to have such big problems with Easter and Christmas is that they don't celebrate Sukkot or Passover, so they're ignoring Jesus' birth and resurrection -- although -- they'll often claim that they celebrate His birth and resurrection every single day. But when I sneak up on 'em with relevant questions when the Christmas and Easter topics aren't on the table, I often find that they've been liars and don't celebrate His birth and resurrection every single day as they claim.
To me, it's the exact same thing as people that poo poo the tithe on the basis of everything that they have is God's anyway, yet the tither lets God actually see more of the $$$ and of their worship before the High Priest that's in these days (Deuteronomy 26, Hebrews 7:8) than the one that hides behind all that they have belongs to God. I'm more concerned about the religiosity that comes out of all of the tradition busters, but that have ZERO to replace any of those traditions with and I often find to be the least God honoring and the most foul mouthed people on the planet.
So, I just personally always have to wonder where a thread like this is going. Are you advocating celebrating the 7 days of Passover? Because otherwise, I genuinely don't understand the point and how as firm of an emphasis upon the resurrection will be placed in the hearts and minds of children and of those that are childish who don't place the emphasis upon the whole counsel of God anyway -- without these small degradations from Puritan concerns about days, feasts, etc. as they have with Easter and Christmas given to them in a bite sized segment of the 15 days out of the year that they Biblically represent. We can win the holiday war over the nomenclature of what we call certain days and lose generations in the quest to bring their every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. I never see how the removing of these things from the mouths of babes and sucklings ever produces anything productive and worthwhile.
I'm hearin ya Martin. I just think a bit of reality goes a long way. Easter is not reality, Passover/Ressurrection is. If I can crack the shell a bit I have found that people open up to see God a little more clearly. That's all.
But you are right, it has caused more frustration for many than I think is good but it just seems like an obvious avenue to try. It's all about the Truth setting us all free so I keep trying.
cp
:cloud9: I think you're right Martin; I wholeheartedly think all of it needs to be replaced by what replaced them, ie. the feasts GOD ordained, which point to Christ.
Not Easter bunnies, Easter eggs, Christmas trees, elves, or Halloween, which is a vague shadow of Tabernacles (pumpkins are many-seeded), which occurs around the same time period. NOT, in a law mentality, but out of love for Him and desiring obedience.
"Odd" that all these festivals are around the time of the feasts HE decreed, isn't it? Blessings...
Quote from: martincisneros on April 12, 2009, 03:05:13 AM
To me, it's not a big deal because of Colossians 2. What concerns me are the people that often claim to have such big problems with Easter and Christmas is that they don't celebrate Sukkot or Passover, so they're ignoring Jesus' birth and resurrection -- although -- they'll often claim that they celebrate His birth and resurrection every single day. But when I sneak up on 'em with relevant questions when the Christmas and Easter topics aren't on the table, I often find that they've been liars and don't celebrate His birth and resurrection every single day as they claim.
To me, it's the exact same thing as people that poo poo the tithe on the basis of everything that they have is God's anyway, yet the tither lets God actually see more of the $$$ and of their worship before the High Priest that's in these days (Deuteronomy 26, Hebrews 7:8) than the one that hides behind all that they have belongs to God. I'm more concerned about the religiosity that comes out of all of the tradition busters, but that have ZERO to replace any of those traditions with and I often find to be the least God honoring and the most foul mouthed people on the planet.
So, I just personally always have to wonder where a thread like this is going. Are you advocating celebrating the 7 days of Passover? Because otherwise, I genuinely don't understand the point and how as firm of an emphasis upon the resurrection will be placed in the hearts and minds of children and of those that are childish who don't place the emphasis upon the whole counsel of God anyway -- without these small degradations from Puritan concerns about days, feasts, etc. as they have with Easter and Christmas given to them in a bite sized segment of the 15 days out of the year that they Biblically represent. We can win the holiday war over the nomenclature of what we call certain days and lose generations in the quest to bring their every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. I never see how the removing of these things from the mouths of babes and sucklings ever produces anything productive and worthwhile.
It seemed the thread had pretty much played out, except I had thought I would come back and add that one esteems a day over another, one doesn't, and we're not to condemn each other over it. I'm personally not advocating celebrating
any day, and though it's not a point of contention, I don't see a problem if being led, to not accept/condone any blatant pagan influence of a thing, including the name; not pushing it on someone, but if asked, tell them simply and gently why I see it that way. Some think it's OK to eat meat, some not, and it's all a matter of an individual's conscience before God. If one thinks it's OK to celebrate what's called Easter and Christmas, IMO, that's between them and God. I'm not the judge. Nothing to condemn or strive over. Just as, if God has convicted me about not doing it, then that's between me and God. IMO, no
contention either way is best.
Yeah, it's really not a matter of contention. I just get concerned when I see some UR websites that are clearer about everything that they're against than about anything that they're for, such as P.C.'s website that came up a while back. Yet his site's docile compared to some of the others that I've seen where everything is babylon, absolutely everything is coming down, etc., and I'm like, no, not everything's coming down. Some things are being used by God as is, although not necessarily His first choice in wording things. If God is genuinely operating any kind of sovereign providence in history, then some of these things are moot issues as far as I'm concerned.
When He made His promise to Abraham, He knew about Easter and Christmas, trees and eggs. It wasn't anything He hadn't already foreseen, and though some things in Jeremiah and elsewhere often get twisted into something to whip on the Church about these things, people are still being blessed by Joy to the World songs, Christmas cards celebrating the coming of the Saviour of the World or at least loving others as you'd have them love you, and I've never seen an Easter card send anyone to Hell under any paradigm of ET that I previously held to.
I personally like looking at what the Holy Spirit is emphasizing with the whole of the Body and not choking or trying to choke everybody else up about things that the Holy Spirit is obviously not emphasizing with any really large segments of the Body. And I'm certainly not going to call anyone's faith and practice babylonian just because they happen to practice or use terminology that might not be my first choice 'cause calling them shipwrecked over something the Holy Spirit isn't calling them shipwrecked will immediately and without hesitation shipwreck me.
I'm deeply concerned these days about the holiness of the Body not being rightly discerned by many within the Body who want to gouge an eye or cut off a hand of the New Man just because it's not every jot and tittle of how they'd personally manifest it. And again, I'm not talking about anyone on this thread and I really don't want to say which websites and UR folks that I've got in mind about this. Too many try to apply Biblical teaching to the old man, to the new man. And if I read St. Paul correctly, that's a step into being fallen from grace. We don't have to start circumcising for religious concerns to be practicing teachings to the old man when we're the new man in Christ. It's any time we've mistake what's permissible to the old man for what's permissible to the new man that's under entirely different covenants of promise when we're not promoting the genuine, [and contextually glorified Christ centered,] liberty that's ours.
To me, Shakespeare nailed it with his "a rose by any other name...." comment because we can practice the Old Testament festivals and lose the Christ of the festivals as half the Jews have done since the beginning. I've seen Messianic Christians lose themselves in the size of the bone on their plate and the bitterness of the sufferings portrayed by the horseradish and completely miss the points about:
"He hath made Him sin for us who knew no sin, so that we'd be made the righteousness of God in Him;"(2Corinthians 5)
"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive;" (1Corinthians 15)
"by His stripes ye were healed;"(1Peter 2)
"ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became financially poor, that ye through His financial poverty would become financially rich;" (2Corinthians chapters 8 and 9)
"that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, He would gather all things together into one of those in the heavens and of those in the earth, even in Him."(Ephesians 1)
where the good ol' rubber meets the road on Jesus being our saviour from everything we've needed saving from -- and not in some historical or eschatological senses, but right here, right now. If eggs and candy were all that there were to Easter, then is there anything too good to offer up to Him as our High Priest Who died for us and rose again to be our last Adam right now? Eggs, candy, and bunnies are genuinely the whole fuss when [literally] billions on this planet absolutely know nothing about any pagan origins and are just caught up with watching Passion plays this week leading up to Easter.
When it comes to Christian holidays that have been turned into anything but...., then we've really got to start raising a stink about Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, and Thanksgiving Day (a US holiday with Christian origins). But to be offended by bunnies, St. Nicolas, gifts, and chocolate when all of these other uniquely Christian festivities have been turned into worse indulgences for the flesh gets boring. I do deeply appreciate Claypot having brought this up and I don't want to seem like I'm bouncing on Claypot about this. That's the furthest from my thinking. This is just one of those subjects where when people are investigating a Christian Universalist's perspective on it, I'm not wanting the only thing that they find online to be Revelation 17 and 18 rants about Mystery Babylon.
No, really. God's not going to burn anyone's kids in the Lake of Fire for a thousand years over having eaten Easter candy and having attended a Church with a bunny rabbit picture in the Sunday school room. My first few years in UR circles, I used to get some HATEFUL emails about this subject as though it were the equivalent of separating the Blood of Christ from Christianity or whatever. Total rants about everybody's apostacy from the very people that are never in Church and have given zilch to Christian missionary work was a bit deeply ironic to me, but at the time I generally agreed with them 'cause I hadn't thought it through. Guess what! Easter and Christmas will probably be celebrated during the millenium. They're not going away and although commercial businesses have sense enough to get a piece of the action, it's not exclusively an economic ploy to anyone other than the very people that have an agenda of wiping everybody's smile off of their faces over receiving a gift, participating in an Easter egg hunt, etc.
As far as I'm concerned, the world's full enough of sad, long faces and if it has to be that watered down to get them to go to Church on the promise of some serious egg nog before and after Church, then maybe God's bribing the kids to get 'em in Church to hear about an old rugged cross on a hill far away. Some of the stories of folks being up all night 'cause they ate way too much, but while they were up saw a Jesus movie and were totally transformed are genuinely amazing. You can even get the secular networks to show Biblical movies during Christmas and Easter. Some of the best television is on during those times that's deeply inspirational. I love Easter. God sneaks in, in the most unexpected of ways. I've seen little kids during Easter egg hunts in total ecstacy, and I genuinely feel the same thing from the face of their heavenly Father that's watching them, knowing they're not going to become wiccans over a piece of chocolate.
Look at the faces of the really little children that are getting to participate on those days, if you want to know whether it's right or wrong. You can genuinely feel Christ Jesus walk into that field with all of the Easter eggs and candy in absolute glee as He's watching the kids. A side of this that never comes up: I wouldn't want to take THIS away from Him. For just half an hour or however long it winds up being, you can tell He's totally beside Himself with joy watching the kiddos. Most Christians can't even believe the big ol' grin that's on His face when that's going on. For that few minutes every year, He doesn't have the care of the whole world on His shoulders, as He's rooting for them finding all of it. He gets more out of it than the youngest of the kids gets out of it 'cause of getting to watch them!
:cloud9: What I said was not intended (if any took it that way) to bring condemnation, which is why I said it needed to be done NOT in a law mentality (or not at all) but out of love for Him and a desire to please Him thru obedience.
He has a good, an acceptable, and a perfect will and while He does not "disown" any of the "kids" by any means, what is given over to a babe that is walking in the good will, and a mature Son walking in the perfect will, is two different things.
By the same token, there's nowhere around here within a two hour radius that I could participate with the Messianics that could show me exactly what and how to do these things in the natural, but if there was, I'd be the first one lined up to go. That is MY heart on the matter, and as such I am persuaded that He does not esteem my obedience of the heart any less than those that DO have accessibility and go.
And at the same time, there may be those that ARE going and participating, that are doing it out of law mentality, that are also missing the mark. And those are not convicted by it, are also "exempt". That's the way it ALL works, He looks at the motive of the heart. Blessings....
I am finding that these inconsistancies or errors surrounding times of remembering special historical and present realities can be great opportunities to have fun sharing the truth. It can be like a game trying to talk about truth in the most respectful and loving and fun way.
I like the challenge.
My experience with talking to others about the words 'Easter' and 'Passover' have been frought with some frustration but I do believe people are being set free in certain ways that really help them celebrate these memorial times more deeply.
It takes the using of many methods (and talents) to share the multi-faceted truth of God.
cp
The real background of Christmas I've been taught in history class when I was about 10 year old. On a Catholic school.
To be honest Easter and especially Christmas is just a time to drink and eat until I explode. So I am taking part of fertility rites? Or celebrating the days becoming longer again?
40% where I live have no clue what Easter is about. Some percent know it has something to do with religion.
Only 23% know the details. Are they worshipping Isthar?
"Thou shall worship no graven image."
An easter bunny is an image. But I think a very very small percentage actually worships it. For the atheist it's just a day of. For the Christian it's about Jesus and not about the bunny. They don't kneel before the bunny; and if they do they think about Christ. So is celebrating Easter really worshipping Ishtar? I think not.
OTOH if I read all the post on this board and how closely connected many feel to Father/Son/HS I think they must pinpoint the right dates as acurately as possible and celebrate on those days (and just enjoy Easter and Christmas as a nice non religious party)
That's at least what I think how *I* should do it. We got a saying: If you say A you gotta say B too.
Call yourself a Christian (A) stick to the correct festivals (B)
Not that I'm doing thos things myself. I never done a single religious thing right in my whole life.
But if I read the Bible and see how many times festivals are mentioned and Jesus kept them to the day of His death I think it's wrong to say "I think of Jesus every day."
Erm. Am I condeming anyone? I think I kinda am. But I include myself in that group.
:2c:
:cloud9: He did keep all the feasts; all Jewish males 21 and over were required to attend by God. He went to the "great feast" in secret, which corresponds to Tabernacles/Day of Atonement. Any under 21 were already going by virtue of being in their father's house still, so ALL were in that way, ordered to come. The Hebrew word for feast is "mo-yed" and means, "appointment". We were to have "appointments" with God; 7 of them, to be exact.
Now we keep them spiritually, this I know; if we have had the "circumcision" of the heart, we are "Jews". We were grafted into them, not the other way around.
SO; what I am saying is, if the church would line up with their roots (Jews were saved first), out of love and obedience for Him, it would help others SEE Christ in the patterns contained within the feasts. Are we ordered to? No. Do I feel we should want to do what He did? Yes. Not out of a law mentality, but out of love. All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient, as Paul says.
In my own walk, the Lord took me into the study of all these things. This was way before the internet for me and I had no resource materials, no books, but I had Him and the Bible. I had no idea why He was choosing to teach me these things and I was discouraged from it on nearly every side; even told that the OT was "just history, there's no life in it." But the Lord had other ideas.
I watched a documentary of a Jewish family preparing for Passover this week, and then having their Passover. My heart yearned to be with them; it was rich in symbolism and I realized for the first time it wasn't just about God.
Passover was about leaving Egypt. I say that it was also instituted to bring the ALL the family tree together and pointed to the scripture and promise of God that if we are saved (brought out of Egypt), then He will save our whole house (family tree).
It was beautiful. My :2c: Blessings....
I see the keeping of the days as a thing of the heart...not that we shouldn't keep them if we feel led or so desire, but I see it as love (as you say, Card) or an individual's conscience before God, not obligation. Analagous to circumcision of the heart, not the flesh. It's OK to be circumcised of the flesh, but not obligitory...Paul said it accomplishes nothing. Same with the law carved on our heart of flesh, not to be kept as legalities carved on stone. When we're saved, it becomes a "heart thing", not a "Law thing"...Jesus fulfills the Law IN us...the whole issue is a spiritual concept to be understood spiritually, not carnally discerned.
Paul said some esteem a day more than another, some don't...some eat meat [offered to idols], some don't. He said the thing is, it's that person's conscience before God, and he further said, don't condemn each other in this...if a person eats it "as to God", then it's OK, it's between him and God...if he doesn't eat, same thing...bottom line, don't condemn...
Therefore, let no one take you to task over what you eat and drink, or in the matter of observing a festival, a new moon, or a sabbath, these things being no more than a pale foreshadowing of what was to come, the proper reality to be found nowhere but in Christ.
Colossians 2:16,17
There's now no condemnation to those that are IN Christ Jesus; because HE is our righteousness.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 12, 2009, 05:26:15 PM
The real background of Christmas I've been taught in history class when I was about 10 year old. On a Catholic school.
To be honest Easter and especially Christmas is just a time to drink and eat until I explode. So I am taking part of fertility rites? Or celebrating the days becoming longer again?
40% where I live have no clue what Easter is about. Some percent know it has something to do with religion.
Only 23% know the details. Are they worshipping Isthar?
"Thou shall worship no graven image."
An easter bunny is an image. But I think a very very small percentage actually worships it. For the atheist it's just a day of. For the Christian it's about Jesus and not about the bunny. They don't kneel before the bunny; and if they do they think about Christ. So is celebrating Easter really worshipping Ishtar? I think not.
OTOH if I read all the post on this board and how closely connected many feel to Father/Son/HS I think they must pinpoint the right dates as acurately as possible and celebrate on those days (and just enjoy Easter and Christmas as a nice non religious party)
That's at least what I think how *I* should do it. We got a saying: If you say A you gotta say B too.
Call yourself a Christian (A) stick to the correct festivals (B)
Not that I'm doing thos things myself. I never done a single religious thing right in my whole life.
But if I read the Bible and see how many times festivals are mentioned and Jesus kept them to the day of His death I think it's wrong to say "I think of Jesus every day."
Erm. Am I condeming anyone? I think I kinda am. But I include myself in that group.
:2c:
I personally agree with everything that you said, [as I usually do more often than not,] and we should push as far as we're able into God's perfect will as revealed in the Scriptures in particular. All I was personally saying was to be understanding towards those that aren't going to spend as much time in the Word in five or ten years as I spend in a typical day. God can invade their world at any level. He knows
the issue in each person's life to touch the deepest with the best He has to offer to bring them to their knees before Him. The more He enriches each life and the more He gives to each one, then obviously the more is going to be required.
This subject is wandering into the subject of how much truth is He able to entrust each one with, whether God Himself withholds certain truths because of timing issue with the big picture of His plan, or [and more usually/likely] personality restraints to where if some people didn't believe in ET any more, then they'd be useless in evangelism; perhaps the same issue if they weren't a left behind premillenialist to where they'd throw holiness down the toilet and have a different woman every week of their life for the rest of their lives. The problem is never with the truth, but with people who never had anything but a fear based motive for doing the right thing. I know I was briefly promiscuous for a couple of weeks, or about three, after seeing UR. If I hadn't had an enormous amount of the Word developed in me over the previous decade of the 90s, then I might not have recovered my senses.
One of my current favorite movies right now has as one of it's closing lines: "Sometimes the truth isn't good enough, sometimes people deserve more. Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded..." What I mean is, as I was saying before when I jumped into this thread: are they the better for knowing this or that? Or are we just wanting them to know it? St. Paul talks about quarreling over words to the ruin of the hearers, to no profit, etc. I wonder a lot these days if I'm the better or the worse for my last 25 years. Am I who God needs me to be for all that I supposedly know? Am I who others NEED me to be for all that I supposedly know and have grown into?
You agree that New Covenant believers are to keep festivals, honor certain days, and especially, to not do so is condemnation? (Colossians 2:16,17). Even though I see it the opposite, however, IMO, even if someone does believe in honoring days, the bottom line is we are not to condemn each other. Paul said to recieve each other on such matters, but not to disputation, I believe is how he put it.
I won't go any further into a dispute about this, especially so, out of respect and appropriateness, but I believe there are several factors at play besides what I posted in my last post. One, Jesus was a Jew by bloodline; two, the cruxifixion and resurrection had not yet taken place, including the destruction of temple worship and the gospel going to the nations. I really question that part of God's giving us light and bringing us into maturity is to generally bring us who are allotted grace back into OT practices.
My :2c:.
Yeah, everything in context: believer verses unbeliever (and I don't like the word "verses," but it's the limitation of English or of my skill with it):
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1Corinthians 5:8)
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: (1Corinthians 5:7)
Of course, everything for me is re-interpreted through Mark 4 and the Hosea 2:18 covenant with the ministry of deliverance for all of Creation that I'm called to. You know I'm not advocating condemnation, murder, and butchery. Christ is the lamb that was sacrificed for those lambs. Daniel 9 says the sacrifice has ceased through Him. I'm in favor of keeping each of the feasts the ways that I've found that about the first 4 centuries of Christianity kept 'em: without bloodshed.
It is good neither to drink wine nor to eat flesh, as both St. Paul and the Pythagoreans acknowledge, for this is rather characteristic to a beast, and the fumes arising from them (the flesh-pots) being dense, darken the soul.
Clement of Alexandria
How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having came, eating and drinking unto the service of your lusts - He who pronounced not the full, but the hungry blessed; Who professed His work to be the completion of His Father's will, was wont to abstain - instructing them to labor for that food which lasts to eternal life, and enjoining in their common prayers petition, not for flesh but for bread only.
Florens Tertullian
No streams of blood are among them(those who abstain), no dainty cookery, no heaviness of head. Nor are there horrible smells of flesh-meats among them, or disagreeable fumes from the kitchen...with their repast of fruits and vegetable fumes, even angels from heaven are delighted and pleased.
John Chrysostom
Pliny refered to Christianity as a contageous superstition, describing those under supsicion as abstaining from flesh-food.
Seneca refered to the early church as the foreign cultists or superstition who abstained from the flesh of animals.
Things, including how St. Paul was interpreted, RADICALLY changed between the nonsense of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas. Paul was called a leader of the Nazarene sect in the book of Acts (Acts 24:5), which history says were the Essenes. It'll change back onto more Biblical grounds between now and the return of Christ. And there is therefore now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. I wholeheartedly agree with that 100,000%.
:laughing7: OK, I'll look at this reply more closely, but my good friend WW had said "condemning"...good to know you're not condemning, cause I'd be toast :mblush:... Yeah! "All things in context!!!" Way to go Martin!!! You're making my day lately with your context statements...lovin' it! :gimmefive:
Hi Jabmaster,
I'm looking at your profile again! :pointlaugh:
Read my condeming in context! :laughing7:
(Plus I put myself in that box too.)
A saying we have here pops in mind: There is no such thing as being a little pregnant. :laughing7:
:cloud9: Martin, I thought that one source you quoted interesting, the one about the fumes of flesh. When I was under that anointing before I knew what an anointing was, when I was first saved, I could not stand the smell of ANY kind of meat cooking. It was definitely part of the spiritual experience although I didn't understand why. It was a 180 for me, since I was a big meat eater, and so made it stand out all the more as something NOT of me, but of the Spirit working something into me. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 13, 2009, 10:57:50 AMWhen I was under that anointing before I knew what an anointing was, when I was first saved, I could not stand the smell of ANY kind of meat cooking. It was definitely part of the spiritual experience although I didn't understand why.
They're not remotely compatible.
Funny guy :tease:. Not the end of the world (as far I know :bigGrin:)...I just personally don't think there's any condemnation either for keeping days if done in good conscience before God, or for not keeping days if done in good conscience before God...God veils and reveals in all things, IMO.
Romans 14
Principles of Conscience
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 08:52:31 PM
Romans 14
Principles of Conscience
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
I think there is a fine line between judgement and and teaching.
Teaching often is telling people they are wrong. Jesus didn't agree with everyone. He didn't keep His mouth shut because He didn't want to judge those weak in faith. He explained them with scripture. ETs also explain things and add 'burn forever' to every explanation. That's condeming. To be honest I knew people would focus on the word condemn. Just my way of letting people read my stuff. Besides I think it's more approtiate for me to condemn people than to teach people.
Duth saying: "When the fox preaches passion, farmer watch your chickens."
Quote2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
Cool, I'm gonna eat my way to salvation! :winkgrin:
An honest question about the traditional interpretation of Romans 14: am I weak?
do you think it would be "lawful" for you to eat meat if you chose to? MAYBE there's at least some dinstinction there...
It seems to me that the example of vegetables was just that, an example. It's not advocating an omnivorous diet vs. a vegetarian/ vegan one. The way I read that is that the weak (spiritually) may limit themselves in some way based on their weakness.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 13, 2009, 09:23:12 PM
An honest question about the traditional interpretation of Romans 14: am I weak?
:laughing7: I wanted to make a vegan joke but restrained myself. Now I feel cheated out of a smiley :sigh:
:icon_king:
Is it really about food?
Or are the veggies the easy parts of the scripture and the meat the stuff fot teachers and advanced students?
Jesus ate meat. So how can it be forbidden?
Isn't it even ordered by God to roast (and eat) a lamb for passover? So how can it be wrong?
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2009, 09:25:29 PM
do you think it would be "lawful" for you to eat meat if you chose to? MAYBE there's at least some dinstinction there...
God would cook my rear end in the Lake of Fire longer than Adolf Hitler if I ever stepped back into that. There is zero question about what God's shown me in the Scriptures and has spoken to me about very clearly. Plus, I can't break my word (Psalm 15:4) even if the revelation of Christ's High Priestly ministry over the animal kingdom weren't clear to me yet. I'd never break my word under any circumstances whatsoever. Too much depends on it. I could never break my spirit in that way. I would honestly immediately and literally die if I knowingly stepped into that. There are certain covenants with God that I have that there's ZERO QUESTION about where I stand, what I'll do, and what signs and wonders I am to expect from my heavenly Father. I couldn't betray innocent blood. After showing me UR in February of 2001, God pulled me all of the way
into this in April of 2001. This isn't theory with me. There is somewhere that I'm heading over the course of my entire life time with God. I've got some specific prizes that I'm running for. And I
press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
:cloud9: I know from my experience in those first days I related above, that there is something to it, something He has not yet convicted me of. We're only held accountable for that which we know, ie. have made revelation to us by the Spirit, once we come into a maturity in Him. In this way, no one is judged beyond the measure of grace they have been given to walk in.
Someone just telling us something, even it is truth, STILL doesn't have the power to judge the flesh, unless the SPIRIT is doing His convicting work in the heart of the recipient.
So while Martin is in obedience to what the Spirit has made life in him, no one else would be judged by the SPIRIT as being in judgment for what they have heard, if it has not been addressed to them by the SPIRIT. As many as are led by the SPIRIT of the Lord, they are the sons of God.
Another thing on this subject that I shared before is the fast HE put me on, the day I found out my mother had terminal cancer. It was carrots and water. I ate carrots and water, quite a bit at first, then it tapered down until the last week, if I had one carrot twice a day, I was good. I was on this for 32 days.
Now the stunning thing I found out about this, is that not only was I not weak in the least, I was able to continue going to the gym every day and working out strenuously, with no fatigue. In fact, just the opposite was happening to me, as I felt speeded up or so quickened by the Spirit within me, that I required to lay down only 3 hours per night, and then it seemed as if I was still semi-awake or aware in a way I had never experienced before.
I asked the Lord about this, and He told me that for the first time in my life, I was drawing my life (read this as spiritual energy) from the Spirit. I never felt better, in fact, and it had an added benefit of seeming to increase with each passing day. I actually wanted to go 40 days, and decided if I made that, then to ask Him for another 40. I will always be aggravated with myself for allowing circumstances to get to me and give up, at day 32. But this is not something that we can undertake without the Spirit either leading us to do so, or agreeing with our petition to do it.
I know I was on the verge of discovering something phenomenal about our make-up, as spiritual beings in a flesh body. Blessings....
Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
:cloud9: Amen Doc, it's the Spirit breathed Word that inspires us, or gives us HIS breath, that we truly live, or have life by. :thumbsup: Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on April 13, 2009, 10:06:48 PM
:cloud9: I know from my experience in those first days I related above, that there is something to it, something He has not yet convicted me of. We're only held accountable for that which we know, ie. have made revelation to us by the Spirit, once we come into a maturity in Him. In this way, no one is judged beyond the measure of grace they have been given to walk in.
Someone just telling us something, even it is truth, STILL doesn't have the power to judge the flesh, unless the SPIRIT is doing His convicting work in the heart of the recipient.
So while Martin is in obedience to what the Spirit has made life in him, no one else would be judged by the SPIRIT as being in judgment for what they have heard, if it has not been addressed to them by the SPIRIT. As many as are led by the SPIRIT of the Lord, they are the sons of God.
Yes, as I was indicating earlier: this is where I've been at the whole time any of you have known of me. This isn't something new. This is just a level of where I'm at that I'd always previously censored myself from getting into this kind of depth about it on these boards. It's not the position of Tentmaker Ministries or anything like that. From what Mercy Aiken told me one time, Gary's the exact opposite.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 13, 2009, 10:06:48 PM...In fact, just the opposite was happening to me, as I felt speeded up or so quickened by the Spirit within me, that I required to lay down only 3 hours per night, and then it seemed as if I was still semi-awake or aware in a way I had never experienced before.
I asked the Lord about this, and He told me that for the first time in my life, I was drawing my life (read this as spiritual energy) from the Spirit. I never felt better
This is where I live, hence the occasional [tongue in cheek] Superman or Spiderman avatar from me on my profiles online at this site and others, although I do it for other reasons too that I won't get into here.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 13, 2009, 10:06:48 PM....But this is not something that we can undertake without the Spirit either leading us to do so, or agreeing with our petition to do it.
I know I was on the verge of discovering something phenomenal about our make-up, as spiritual beings in a flesh body. Blessings....
It's unquestionably the future laid out before us. I seldom bring it up any more unless I'm particularly lead to do so with the exception of over the Bread and Cup of 1Corinthians 11 that I've hinted a few times has this additional meaning for me now. I'm also more prone to bring it up when the Lord has me in a particularly fruitful time of intercession for all of the animals of the world and He wants me giving a little blip of it on everybody's radar to watch what He's about to do, as something usually inevitably happens somewhere in the world related to an animal or animals in the plural. This is the Mustard Seed revelation of the Kingdom that Jesus kept bringing up.......so that the birds of the air can rest in it's branches....There's a very very strong anointing for this particular issue that I know is going to come upon me to become as vocal about it as I was in the early days of when God was showing me this. There's many more things that I have to write about this on a website that I have devoted to this at animalgospel.com I've done about one article on this for that website in about 5 years, or whatever it's been. And I'm thinking that the FAQ page is a bit messed up, so I need to get with the webmasters of that site and find out if some pages just didn't make it into that directory or if we've got some duplicate links. And also, 'cause I have quite a few things to add to that page that I've either been asked about it over the years or have occured to me on their own. I've just been pretty lazy on the subject, unless the Lord's had me in a concentrated time of meditation in all of the Scriptures that He's pointed out to me that have any relevance to it, or unless He's draw upon me to worship Him along the lines of this.