Tentmaker Forum

Hi everyone.  Wife (newer believer in UR, still some "orthodox" questions - as if I don't  :laughing7:) pointed out Matthew 7:21 today.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...only those that do my will..."

We had a discussion about dying in this life, and those that don't will still have to die a 2nd death, wood/hay/stubble burned, spirit saved, corrective discipline...also talked about what is the kingdom being discussed, does AD 70 enter in there anywhere, if we took this to strictly mean heaven/hell then salvation would be by works not grace, etc.  

She said "why does it have to be so confusing?"...I said it has to do with a process, and that even on TM,  basically everyone believes in ultimate salvation, but there's still "arguing" about the process, when, how, etc...I don't think my "answers" cleared this up for her...

Any good, clear input on these verses?  As I said, "here's your chance"  :bigGrin:.

Mat 7:21 Not everyone saying to Me 'Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens."
Mat 7:22 Many will be declaring to Me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'"
Mat 7:23 And then shall I be avowing to them that 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'"


Well, I believe that what Jesus spoke was exactly the case, before his death, burial, and resurrection. For me, understanding why Jesus said such things as "if your eye offends you, gouge it out", and to the rich man, "if you would enter into life, keep the commandments," and "you must be perfect, even as your Father is perfect." For the most part, what I see as the reason for much confusion is in taking what was spoken as truth before the cross and making it apply afterward. The things Jesus said as requirements I do not believe were meant to give the listener hope, but rather to show them that if left up to them, they have no hope. This would serve to sum up all man in disobedience, as Paul says, which occurred on the cross, when at that moment, God would then show mercy to all.

Please do not take this to mean that I am disparaging or discounting any of what Jesus said. I just believe it was spoken at a period of time wherein if the cross did not happen, those things indeed would have happened to man. God had every right to judge the world and punish it for sin, but instead of doing it outwardly on the human race, he accomplished it all in the body of our Lord, with all of who we were drawn into him and killed with him.

Ron

Yes, we also talked about pre-cross/pre-grace.  Sort of like the law being a taskmaster that wasn't sufficient to save us, that lead us TO Christ.

Thanks Ron  :thumbsup:.

Kingdom of the Heavens = Kingdom of God = Age To Come/Messianic Age/Millennium

Jesus is here referring to those who will not receive life in the Age to Come.  Instead, they will have to wait until after the end of the ages and after God's corrective, purifying judgment to receive life.   Could be wrong but this is how I currently view this particular passage (Of course I am well aware of the fact that one year from now, or even less time than that, I could be looking at this post and thinking 'What the heck was I thinking?' ")

Quote from: Jerm on December 27, 2009, 11:22:44 PM
Kingdom of the Heavens = Kingdom of God = Age To Come/Messianic Age/Millennium

Jesus is here referring to those who will not receive life in the Age to Come.  Instead, they will have to wait until after the end of the ages and after God's corrective, purifying judgment to receive life.   

This is the heart of the matter. Orthodox Christianity sees the kingdom of heaven as an eternal 'you are in or out from the get go' affair. That's the fallacy. If Christians would just look at Genesis 3 they can see that the consequences of eating from the forbidden tree are not eternal. Then, if you read all scripture from that understanding all the confusion goes away.

Hi Jabcat,

Keep in mind that Jesus said "I am sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Also, remember that at that time there was no saviour as yet, Jesus was still alive. Another thing, the Israelites were still under the law of Moses. Works was required for salvation. Another thing is, the kingdom that Jesus preached about was a promise to Israel, not Gentiles. I believe this was directed at the Pharisees because it mentiones they had done many wonderful works. Who bragged the most about their works?

Just my thoughts.

CHB

Yep to all of you.  You're all touching on some things we discussed, maybe with bits and pieces from everyone it will become clearer.  Thanks and keep it coming.

 Hi JC

  regarding that scripture ' Not everyone saying unto

  me..Lord,Lord...

   I beleive it is best interpreted with the 'two men in a bed,

  two women at the handmill' along with the five wise and five

  foolish virgins.

   the old Adam/man of sin in all of us..will not enter.

   .the new Man in Christ will...it is the new man in Christ that

is a wise virgin...the old man of sin that is foolish .


   Did we not cast out demons 'in your name'...this the child of

  faith[new creature] Get away from me you workers of iniquity

  [old Adam/man of sin]

   Flesh and blood will not inherit...for we know Old Adam's

flesh was formed of the dust of the ground...and enemy seed

[sin] was sown there also..

   also, as far as the cross, before or after..we are told to follow

   Him, to pick up our cross...well, we bear sin in our body to

   death also....He was appointed a grave with the wicked and

rich in His death, and as we also bear the image of Him, we

too, are appointed a grave with the wicked. It is appointend

unto all men to die,once

   

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PM
Hi everyone.  Wife (newer believer in UR, still some "orthodox" questions - as if I don't  :laughing7:) pointed out Matthew 7:21 today.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...only those that do my will..."

Hi James,
It means no one can fake their way into the kingdom.

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PMMatthew 7:21...  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...only those that do my will..."

Contextually, He's dealing with false prophets who don't bare the fruit of what they say, who speak falsely and presumptuously in His Name, etc:

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:15-21)

(Incidentally, you could use this passage from Matthew to call the ET doctrine false prophecy 'cause it would be portraying the Kingdom as a thornbush or thistles in verse 16.  And in verse 19, that false doctrine and those who spread it are what's thrown into the fire 'cause He said elsewhere that those that don't gather with Him are scattering abroad.  The rightful divisions are made by the angels in Matthew 13, rather than by us.  Our "judgments" that we're to judge righteously per John's Gospel and 1Corinthians, Revelation 1, and elsewhere are via the proclamation of the Gospel. It has judgment inherent in it rather than our adding to or taking away from His words in the name of so-called emphasis.)

This is a regular theme of the Bible. And it was one of the promises of the coming of the Anointed One with His Anointing in the book of Zechariah through which the Body of the Anointing would begin on the Day of Pentecost.  A parallel passage on these false prophets that are being cleansed from the land through the coming of the Anointed with His Anointing from the Old Testament through the fountain that would be opened for uncleanness through His Blood in Jerusalem is in Zechariah 13:

2 "It shall be in that day," says the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the [false] prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land. 3 It shall come to pass that if anyone still [falsely] prophesies, then his father (i.e. Christ) and mother (i.e. the Church) who begot him will say to him, 'You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the LORD.' And his father (i.e. Christ) and mother (i.e. the Church) who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies.
4 "And it shall be in that day that every [false] prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he [falsely] prophesies; they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive. 5 But he will say [contextually he will say in order to deceive:], 'I am no prophet, I am a farmer; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.' (Zechariah 13:2-5)

In other words, in this parenthetical statement from Zechariah, a false prophet never owns the word which he's spoken, but always defers that it had nothing to do with him that it came forth, when 1Corinthians 14 says:

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits (i.e. words) of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1Corinthians 14:29-33  Elsewhere, either in Romans or in Peter, it's in proportion to one's hearing and hearing by the Word of God, i.e. one's faith.)

Lord Jesus, Whom we're supposed to be imitating, never shied away from what He said.  Basically said "I AM said it, so deal with it."  But Matthew 7's passage implies that those who come feigning humility about all of the glory going to God and it having nothing to do with them, and all of the religious spiel of similar sort are wolves in sheep's clothing rather than those walking up and down in His Name (Zechariah 10:12; Colossians 3:17).  According to Lord Jesus in that passage in Matthew I quoted above, they're not wanting any attention drawn to themselves 'cause they don't want the accountability for what they've said.  A prophet either owns what they've said, and own up to it and are ready for a Hebrews 11 fate for each thing they've said (i.e. if it came to it), or they're a false prophet.  He's saying these false prophets won't enter into the Kingdom, but only those that do the will of My Father.

However, in Zechariah 13 and many other relevant passages of Scripture, both Old and New Testament, He's after the spirit of uncleanness that's driving their flesh; the spirit of error as 1John puts it, rather than being after excluding people from the Kingdom.  I could bring up a passage from, I'm thinking Matthew, where in the Amplified Bible, it'll parenthetically comment on this "Kingdom of God and His Righteousness" in saying "God's way of doing and being right."  Some would say the Kingdom is inside of us, from Luke's Gospel, and that's true, but entering into yourself makes zero sense.  He's talking about a way of living rather than a destination, and there's an element of fulfillment of Messianic prophecy from Zechariah [quoted above] that He's getting rid of the confusion and separating the true prophets from the false and cleansing the inquity of the land in one day, as it says in Zechariah 3:9-10.  It's not an Eternal Torment passage in Matthew 7.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 28, 2009, 04:48:51 AM

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PM

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...only those that do my will..."

It means no one can fake their way into the kingdom.

But many attempt to fake their reports, showing nonexistent profits; and label it charity.

They have used the guise of "God's will" to promote their own agendas, but it is exactly this human propensity to elevate
themselves above others, acting in their own best interest that demonstrates the need for a Savior.

peacemaker

willieH: Hi James... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PM
Hi everyone.  Wife (newer believer in UR, still some "orthodox" questions - as if I don't  :laughing7:) pointed out Matthew 7:21 today.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...only those that do my will..."

This is a slight misquote, bro... JESUS did not say "only those that do MY will"...

He said:  "he that doeth the WILL of MY FATHER which is in Heaven" (just for those who might not be as familiar with this quote, as others)

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PMWe had a discussion about dying in this life, and those that don't will still have to die a 2nd death, wood/hay/stubble burned, spirit saved, corrective discipline...also talked about what is the kingdom being discussed, does AD 70 enter in there anywhere, if we took this to strictly mean heaven/hell then salvation would be by works not grace, etc.

Seeing a "chance" is offered here to anyone... I shall take mine...  :laughing7:

As I have noted many times in many threads about this passage, ...These speaking in --  Matt 7:22 -- ARE definitely believers, and therefore ARE saved, as they have CONFESSED CHRIST as Lord... for NO MAN can SAY that "CHRIST is LORD" except -- BY the HOLY SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 12:3 --however...

They are NOT entered into the KINGDOM for obvious reasons...

For one to be entered into CHRIST and into HIS ...KING-- dom... then CHRIST must be KING of EVERYTHING they ...DO... and thereby given credit for those "DOINGS"...

The INDICATION that these (in Matt 7:21-22) are NOT entered, and therefore, neither are their "doings" ...is because -- THEY note THEMSELVES as the origin of these "works"

Matt 7:22 ...Lord, Lord -- have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name cast out devils? and in Thy name DONE many "wonderful works"?

crediting THEMSELVES with:

(1) "PROPHESYING" and
(2) "CASTING out devils" and
(3) "DOING ...many ...wonderful works"

Instead of noting CHRIST was "DOING" these things IN THEM...  :dontknow:

Within his writings, PAUL notes that his life (as one become a member of CHRIST's "KING--dom")... really no longer has anything to "DO" with HIM, rather, ...instead -- his life is a complete SUBMISSION to CHRIST, and that it is HE which manifests the works proceeding from PAUL --- NOT PAUL!

Gal 2:20 -- I am crucified with CHRIST ...nevertheless... I LIVE -- yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth IN ME...

Anyone thinking themselves as "prophesying" or "casting out devils" or "doing many wonderful works"... is noting THEMSELVES as "KING of these works", and not CHRIST... (doing essentially, the SAME THING that CAIN did, way back when!)...

By presenting their own "doings" (which are trash), and calling them "WONDERFUL" as they place them before GOD --- oblivious to the fact that their works are in fact, "INIQUITY" unless CHRIST has been "doing" those works THROUGH them --  :sigh:

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PMShe said "why does it have to be so confusing?"...I said it has to do with a process, and that even on TM,  basically everyone believes in ultimate salvation, but there's still "arguing" about the process, when, how, etc...I don't think my "answers" cleared this up for her...

Becoming "REVEALED" involves PATIENCE... and DILIGENCE -- Jer 29:14 - Prov 25:2 -- It is the step by step process of a lifetime... not some,
"snap of the fingers" and then -- POOF! -- everything is understood!  :mshock:

If one wishes REVELATION, then one must be willing to WAIT upon YHVH to gift it to him/her, ...NOT... demand that His gifting be manifest because of IMPATIENCE!  Cherishing the Holy moments of revelation... and thanking and blessing God for them!

God even notes in the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST that the PATIENCE of the "saints" is INVOLVED within that REVELATION! --

Rev 14:12 -- HERE is the PATIENCE of the saints --->  HERE are THEY that keep the COMMANDMENTS of God [that which is in the WORD] and the FAITH of JESUS...

One must be willing in a LIVING SACRIFICE -- Rom 12:1 -- to dedicate themselves to GOD, and commit themselves to the search FOR HIM -- as He is FOUND in His WORD...

And with PATIENCE, wait upon the REVELATIONS which GOD decides we shall have FROM Him... according to His RIGHTEOUS PURPOSE in our individual experiences, ...not according to our desire or IMPATIENT demand, to "KNOW"...

We must be sincere, and true to our beliefs (even though they are incomplete), and SEEK PATIENTLY for the TRUTH to be manifest IN THEM... blessed little by little, of our Father YHVH as we diligently search His WORD for Him!  :cloud9:

Thanks for my "chance" James... hope you don't consider it "arguement"... :mnah:

  Hi James

   Out of silence , because its a great question  that  makes one think! 
   thought of Matt25  the  10 virgins   see how this is worded ??

1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins

  the five wise and  5 foolish

   the  difference   to me is   having the Holy  Spirit  seal / oil and those who lack      if they are cast out  , go  back into the darkness

  were no man can work  the righteouness of God ...
   Jesus is the Light of the world



  the Lamp  is the Light where     you are safe from the  evil one


When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and [when] thou awakest, it shall talk with thee. 


Pro 6:23   For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life: 

Pro 6:24   To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.

  these strange doctrines are the offspring   daughters of men    from Babylon  Mother of harlots   serving her  and Not God ... remember even John marvelled at her  thats how deceptive  religion is ..

  the seal of approval  is  where
God  annoints .. keeps   His promises and  you will do the works of your Father  though Jesus Christ   the Rasied up Body of Christ /annointed ..
we are to raise  it up and Hold the Head .. these works shall we do in faith 

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 
  by Paul here in Eph 4 it is possible to grieve   the Holy Spirit and be cut off , some for awhile  ,short while ,and  longer   some for  the day of Judgment  etc
  this is what the WORD  OF GOD says .. just speaking in Truth and Spirit
as we hear what the Spirit and Truth is saying ......

  God bless  :icon_flower:

just thinking out loud...

Some theologians and scholars believe that when Jesus is talking about the Kingdom of God, he is speaking of a future reign where things will be as God desires them to be, but he could also be talking about the here and now.  So when Jesus says you won't get in just by saying the password, maybe he is saying that to really enter into the Kingdom here and now, to receive it and pass it on to others, requires a little more than knowing what to say.  It has everything to do with a willingness to die to an old way of being so that a new existence (one of love, compassion, joy, peace, patience, etc.) can be birthed in us.

...Just thoughts

Quote from: jabcat on December 27, 2009, 09:48:46 PM
Hi everyone.  Wife (newer believer in UR, still some "orthodox" questions - as if I don't  :laughing7:) pointed out Matthew 7:21 today.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven...only those that do my will..."

This is a warning, that just calling Jesus "Lord" won't cut it.  We have to do the will of the Father in order to enter into His kingdom.  Jesus said the same thing many times in many ways.  Does this verse in any way hinder UR?  No.  It just shows that before all will be saved then all will first have to repent and do God's will.

Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn  unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship  before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations. 29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow  before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. 30 A seed shall serve  him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Quoteif we took this to strictly mean heaven/hell then salvation would be by works not grace, etc

Not true.   I believe this is referring to salvation and I believe salvation is 100% by grace.  Any works any man does that gains him entrance into God's kingdom are due to the grace of God.  We are His workmanship created unto good works that God ordained we should walk in.  Every man on his own apart from God's grace seeks his own.  That is what our works look like.  A corrupt tree bringing forth corrupt fruit.

Quoteif we took this to strictly mean heaven/hell then salvation would be by works not grace, etc

Not true.   I believe this is referring to salvation and I believe salvation is 100% by grace.  Any works any man does that gains him entrance into God's kingdom are due to the grace of God.  We are His workmanship created unto good works that God ordained we should walk in.  Every man on his own apart from God's grace seeks his own.  That is what our works look like.  A corrupt tree bringing forth corrupt fruit.

    Hi Bob ,
   I agree,  but not completely  with your statement  above ...

  you can  fall from grace

Obedience is key  to stay/dwell in the grace of God
  there are tons of scripture to back   this up

   Paul in Gal 5  is a good example to use 

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

10I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


  the law of sin and death is  crucifying the old man  and the new man   who is spiritual   does obey the Laws of Christ ... which is  life 

  the little leaven   is the  corruptive influence that  ruins the whole  thing
  works of God  in any  man

   why would Jesus say make the tree good and  fruit good  or  make the tree corrupt and fruit corrupt ?

  How are we supposed to do this part ? if God does everything and does it all and we have absolutly no  say whatsoever in how our salvation is met?
  our criteria   is up to God we just   wait in death for God to deliver  us out of it ? 

  yes ,in a way this is  so true ,  by faith we are saved it is the gift of God

but is that all there is to it ?
   no way is this the end of it , but only the begining   this new man in Christ has a walk ahead of him that is Spiritual  and has to keep himself spiritually ALIVE IN CHRIST ...
  Does God  do all that to , Yes in ways

, but it is up to you to stay faithful to Him  , love Him first  and others  as well and  stay in obedience  believing  in Him , giving Him the glory and praise  etc

now look up obey  the Truth and just see how many times it is a requirement
to  dwell in Christ ...

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 

the ungodly  is one group   and the sinner is another  group as well as the   made righteous  by Jesus Christ sacrifice

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 

  the tree can be lopped down  and cast into the fire 

also Jesus says I am the vine you are the branches  , branches that do not bear fruit to God will be  pruned / cut off and  cast  into the  heap for burning

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 

   there is a  walk to be walked out  the end is where salvation is complete / perfect )   in   total trust and faith  pure obedience, compliance and  submission

this  obedience rendered to anyone's counsels, an obedience shown in observing the requirements of Christ   and the bear His name  in the fruits of the Holy Spirit


  we must keep  ourselves clean  and wash one anothers feet and  be refined   many times over  as the Lords grace  is sufficent
  we will suffer many things and allow God to rule our hearts in every way
  without  complaint and murrmerings and disputes  and mostly sin  being
  the spots in our love feasts  eat  his Body and drink His blood  that we may have His Life in us ....
the garment we put on is Christ  we are covered by the grace of God
  but we are to keep  this clean  , pure and holy  , seperated from the world   that is below ,  our nakedness  / sin  is covered  by the pure and holy work of  God though Jesus Christ alone ,  now we have to revere that  work  and respect  this as a holy thing  and not take this for granted as  the spoiled child
  keep our conscience clean that our souls are worthy  to call  upon His name in out time of need .., asking for His help and  desire to be fulfilled in us as it is  rightly  to be so done
a man with no conscience  is a danger to himself and others ,   how we  defile the temple of God in whom we are and  His spirit dwells with us
is a quick work of destruction .. woe to that man who betrays  this gift of grace 


  3 good examples

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:

 
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:  
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 
  2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

we  want and need more of Him  the increse of God  and less and less
of everything else that  gets in the way of true   Spirit and grace  and livng a godly life  hid in Jesus Christ 

  grace  and peace to you

Quote from: rosered on January 08, 2010, 06:15:59 PMHi Bob,  I agree,  but not completely  with your statement  above ...  you can fall from grace

Obedience is key  to stay/dwell in the grace of God
  there are tons of scripture to back this up

Hi rosered... I agree with everything you posted, so maybe it was just in the way I stated it.  I didn't mean to imply that  because I believe salvation is 100% by God's grace that there is nothing left for us to do, or that we can not fall from grace etc.  I actually believe that there is much that we must do and that entering the kingdom of God is hard, not easy.  By 100% grace I mean that ultimately God is the One who ensures that man does what is otherwise impossible for him.

In this passage below, I highlighted the part that means 100% grace to me.   Yet that 100% grace does not undo "how hardly shall they that have riches enter the kingdom of God" and turn "hardly" into "easily".  Nor does it erase the requirement Jesus gave the man.

Luke 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

God bless

  awesome ! Bob God bless you !!

Guys , I first want to remind you all that when Jesus was say the Through the Eye story, He was talking to Israelites under the law and he had not raised from the dead yet, so He had to first fulfill the promises to them first before he could be more to others. And now move forward in time to the Grace story, and you wont find people trying to get the kingdom to come, you will find the kingdom came, and that it now deals with a heavenly kingdom and not the kingdom to come "to" the earth, (JC), The promise was that the Christ would "bring the kingdom" to earth, Paul talks about falling from Grace and means only one thing...

Mixing Law and Grace.... Like as follows=
Furthermore, Paul marveled that the Galatians were "removed" or transferred to "a different gospel" from that which he had brought to them.  And he also declared that it was "not another" gospel for them!  Now the truth of this statement may be recognized for the reality of what it says when we remember that Christ affirmed that "the Scripture cannot be              ( 'broken' ) annulled" (John 10:35).  This reveals that Scripture MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS, and FOR WHOM IT IS SAID.  Therefore, if a "gospel" which was divinely ordained for one people, is perverted to another, its promises simply cannot be fulfilled.

Consequently, it is "not another" gospel or "good news" for them.  And those to whom it is being preached, becomes both disturbed and deceived.  Now when this "different gospel" while true for the people for whom it was divinely ordained, was perversely forced upon the Galatians, the Uncircumcision, the "gentiles," its promises could not be fulfilled, therefore, their faith was misplaced and nullified! And on this account Paul doubly emphasized the "curse" or anathema upon the preachers, saying, "though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you        ( Galatians, the Uncircumcision or "gentiles"), than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal   1:8-9;2:2,7).    Now the reason for all this defense is as follows.  Paul had gone into Galatia in accord with his divinely ordained commission, bringing the gospel which came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal. 1:11-12 ), for which he had been separated (Rom 1:1-5),and which he specifically designated "that gospel which I preach among the gentiles" (Gal 2:2), and "the gospel of the Uncircumcision" ( Gal 2:7) .  Later, Christianized Jewish preachers visited the churches of Galatia and "removed" or transferred the believers from the grace of Christ in which they had been called to "a different Gospel" of faith and works , which was none other than "the gospel of the Circumcision" that was committed unto Peter for the Circumcision ( Gal 2:7-9 ) Consequently, they were urged to be "circumcised"        ( Gal 5: 2-3; 6: 12-13 ), to "observe days, months, seasons and years" ( Gal 4:8-11 ), and to be "zealous for the law" and "live according to the customs of Moses" like as the Jewish believers were demanded by " the gospel of the Circumcision"         Gal 3:1-9; 4:19-21; 6:12-15; Acts 21:19-21.

Think hard on this because this is the only way to fall from Grace....

Lee Damboise II

QuoteConsequently, it is "not another" gospel or "good news" for them.  And those to whom it is being preached, becomes both disturbed and deceived.  Now when this "different gospel" while true for the people for whom it was divinely ordained, was perversely forced upon the Galatians, the Uncircumcision, the "gentiles," its promises could not be fulfilled, therefore, their faith was misplaced and nullified! And on this account Paul doubly emphasized the "curse" or anathema upon the preachers, saying, "though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you        ( Galatians, the Uncircumcision or "gentiles"), than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal   1:8-9;2:2,7).   

  Hi Lee ,
the Gentiles/all nations  are the wild olive tree  , the Jews are the natural olive tree romans 11

QuoteConsequently, it is "not another" gospel or "good news" for them.  And those to whom it is being preached, becomes both disturbed and deceived.  Now when this "different gospel" while true for the people for whom it was divinely ordained, was perversely forced upon the Galatians, the Uncircumcision, the "gentiles," its promises could not be fulfilled, therefore, their faith was misplaced and nullified! And on this account Paul doubly emphasized the "curse" or anathema upon the preachers, saying, "though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you        ( Galatians, the Uncircumcision or "gentiles"), than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal   1:8-9;2:2,7).   

  the Law of sin and death is good  and is always in effect as long as sinners are repenting
You have  to let each man in their own order die   to sin and death  in the Cross of Jesus every man has to take up his cross and follow  in the same manner


  Paul would have never known sin but by the law so it is good ... 
not nullified .    we cannot live by bread alone / Jesus good news , but every Word that procedds out of the mouth of God ..   thats everything  God has willed and permitted


Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.   Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 

  many whom want this part to not exist anylonger , but this teaching is a deception and a lie 

     Jesus has alot to say about the  Law in Christ 
the  word ''if '' you love me
  and ''if '' your my disciples   '' if ''   you keep my commandments etc

  that word ''if''   is connected  to a variety  of conditions and  various tenses and  moods    its a conditional particle  with anything  generally assumed  to be done  or to have been  done  or about to be done 

it does take faith mixed with good works  and the labouring in Love to  do the will of God look at Jesus  in the 4 gospels for  great examples to follow  therein



what does love/charity agape   do  its an action word averb 
from agapaō


agapaō

1) affection, good will, love, benevolence, brotherly love

2) love feasts    

1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. 





Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 


Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 


these are the  very  same  withered branches for  the fire
we are to be rooted and grounded in the Love of Christ making the difference .............

  Jhn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; 
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 

  Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.Ye are my friends,

if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

same present word  for us to hear what the Spirit is saying ....
 
 

"As long as sinners are repenting" Of a Law system that they have never ever been a part of... Never  been a sinner of Law... Never HAD to repent of Law braking...

I am a Gentile and have never Sinned!
Because I have never feed into the lie that I was a systematic Jew that must turn away from (repent)that which I was never brought into in the first Place. This is ok for you if you want to follow that system because IN Christ ALL will be saved. And All is IN Christ as of the Cross. We both will have to (english) suffer our choices in this life for choosing to turn away from the only one where IN there IS Life. Even if this turning is only in little things, we will all be turned back under pressure...

Lee

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 10, 2010, 01:32:24 AM
"As long as sinners are repenting" Of a Law system that they have never ever been a part of... Never  been a sinner of Law... Never HAD to repent of Law braking...  I am a Gentile and have never Sinned!

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world   may become guilty before God.

 
Sorry Lee I dont buy it .. thats a basic requirement    our  confession
 the Word speaks for itself   , I confess I am a sinner saved by grace  
and now there is a work to be done and the Lord will  finnish it ..

 the Gentiles confess Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;   Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no repect of person with God ...


1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9   If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. read all of Romans 2    you cannot  get around this basic TRUTH !
For as many that have sinned without hte law shall also perish without the  law ...
we are all born in Adam
 
in Adam all die  in Christ all shall be made alive

Quote from: bobf on January 10, 2010, 01:47:44 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 10, 2010, 01:32:24 AM
"As long as sinners are repenting" Of a Law system that they have never ever been a part of... Never  been a sinner of Law... Never HAD to repent of Law braking...  I am a Gentile and have never Sinned!

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world   may become guilty before God.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 09, 2010, 08:34:21 PM....and "live according to the customs of Moses" like as the Jewish believers were demanded by " the gospel of the Circumcision"         Gal 3:1-9; 4:19-21; 6:12-15; Acts 21:19-21.

Lee, none of those references say anything about any gospel demanding anyone to live according to the law of Moses.  There is only one gospel.  Peter preached it to the circumcision.  Paul to the uncircumcision.  The true gospel demands that one be inwardly circumcised.  It does not demand that anyone be outwardly circumcised.  Nor does it demand anyone not to be outwardly circumcised.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 10, 2010, 01:32:24 AM
"As long as sinners are repenting" Of a Law system that they have never ever been a part of... Never  been a sinner of Law... Never HAD to repent of Law braking...

I am a Gentile and have never Sinned!
Because I have never feed into the lie that I was a systematic Jew that must turn away from (repent)that which I was never brought into in the first Place. This is ok for you if you want to follow that system because IN Christ ALL will be saved. And All is IN Christ as of the Cross. We both will have to (english) suffer our choices in this life for choosing to turn away from the only one where IN there IS Life. Even if this turning is only in little things, we will all be turned back under pressure...

Lee

"I am a Gentile and have never Sinned!"
Lee, am I understanding your above quote correctly as it stands?

   Romans 2;9-

   There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil; first for the jew,then for the gentile, but glory and honour and peace for everyone who does good; first for the jew,then for the gentile. For God does not show favouritism.

  All who sin apart from law will also perish apart from law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law that are righteous in God's sight, but those who obey the law,who will be declared righteous.

  [indeed, when gentiles who do not have the law,do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that

  the requirements of the law are written on their hearts

  their consciences also bearing wittness, and their thoughts now accussing now even defending them]

  This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares

   Roman 3;9  What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? NOT AT ALL! We have already made the charge that Jews AND gentiles alike are all under sin


  To those not haveing the law,I became like one not having the law[though I AM NOT FREE FROM GOD'S LAW BUT AM UNDER CHRIST'S LAW] so as to win those not having law

  I HAVE BECOME ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN SO THAT BY ALL POSSIBLE MEANS I MAY SAVE SOME

   I DO ALL THIS FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL

   THAT I MAY SHARE IN IT'S BLESSING

   It is an error to take the gospel to all are concluded under sin..and apply it to the jews only,for they only had the law, when God has spoke differently.

   Now the mystery of godlessness and the mystery of godliness

   is due to be revealed. And it is none other than this.

   That God himself sowed His seed into the earth[ spiritual offspring placed in clay/flesh vessels] and that an enemy has come[adversary] along and also sowed his seed[sin] in the flesh/vessel of God[[temple][creature subjected to vanity/good evil knowledge]

   God's seed will be delivered and placed in a new incorruptible vessel[immortal/flee to the mountains]the adversarys seed will be destroyed..for it is the adversary's seed that destroyed the temple of God[brought death..whoever destroys the temple of the Lord,he will be destroyed/abomination that causes desolation]

   the vessel[flesh] profits nothing..it is the seed[spirit]

  that is of worth to God.....for He says 'BY MY SPIRIT"

     for this reason, Paul said 'turn such a one over to the

  adversaryfor the destruction of the flesh,that the spirit may be

  saved on the day of the Lord

   what took place back there in 70 AD is a wittness as to what takes place to all 'temples/flesh bodies' in which God dwells

  when the offspring of vipers puts to death the word of God come in our flesh[spirit of the obediant son] God then destroys
the abomination that causes desolation/rejection of His son leads to God's rejection[why let it take up the soil?]

  He calls out unto Himself[follow me] the seed that hears and obeys His voice and receives His son. That very seed that is shown mercy has long been persecuted by the seed of the enemy in that very temple arrangement[enemity] we expierence this enmity in our own flesh/temple's/bodies of clay...so

we reckon our bodies as good as dead[desolate] and head to the spiritual mountain[and He carried me away in the Spirit
to a mountain great and high]

   the spirit and the bride say 'Come!