Those who can't make a decision to believe

[Joanna]

I am English and in our churches in the UK we now have protection policies for vulnerable groups of people such as children and teenagers, the elderly and the disabled to protect them from physical, emotional and sexual abuse (and even from spiritual abuse from cults and the occult). Teaching the doctrine of hell is definitely spiritual abuse.

The following groups of people would not know or understand the Gospel:
1. Babies and children.
2. Those with a mental handicap.
3. Those in  a remote part of the world who never hear the Gospel  (or anywhere where a person hasn't heard the Gospel).
Universal salvation believes that all these 3 groups of people are saved but traditional Christianity has these 3 views on the fate of children, mentally handicapped and those who die without hearing the Gospel:
1.  They are all saved.
2.  Some go to heaven and some go to hell.
3. They are in limbo as taught in the Catholic faith.
It is a real grey area whether they are saved.

The worst thing I've been told is the Calvinist theory that hell contains babies and children - this is horrific especially as we have child protection policies in our churches to protect those aged under 18.  Some believe God doesn't stop those aged under 18 from going to hell.

Some Christians believe that at a certain age children/adolescents are old enough to understand the Gospel and be saved and go to hell if they reject the Gospel. The age of accountability for young people is different as young people mature at different ages.  At age 16 I was told I'd go to hell if I wasn't saved but I didn't feel mature enough at 16 but I understood the threat of hell very well at that age.

Thank goodness universal salvation says everyone will be saved.

[lomarah]

It all comes down to what we are being saved from. The Bible says we are being saved from sin and death. The church says we are being saved from "Hell". There is a big difference!

[Tom]

I don't remember hearing that anybody got out of limbo when I was a Catholic kid, and I always thought it was a drag that dead babies had to go there because I didn't think they did anything wrong.

As far as who goes to "hell," I'd say everybody does when they die, which will probably make a lot of church folks mad, but that's because "hell" ain't what it's cracked up to be. It's simply the "unseen" state of dead souls not the wretched horror story of church doctrine.

https://youtu.be/7nuumICiIjM

[Seth]

oops....

[Seth]

It all comes down to what we are being saved from. The Bible says we are being saved from sin and death. The church says we are being saved from "Hell". There is a big difference!

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Even if no food refuse or sewage from Jerusalem was discarded in "Gehenna" in the past, dead bodies of executed criminals and sacrificial animals being dumped there and burned means that "Gehenna" was a "garbage dump" if that really happened there because "garbage," "trash," or "refuse" is anything that's disposed of because it's seen as useless. That's why I think it was considered to be so dishonorable by the Jews to have their dead bodies thrown into the ravine of Hinnom, "Gehenna," to be burned.

As far as the scripture is concerned, Josiah desecrated Topheth making it ceremoniously unclean at one time in the past during that event. But as far as it becoming a place for the continual burning of trash and bodies of executed criminals, there seems to be no evidence of that. At the time Jesus spoke, it could have been a perfectly clean, beautiful area of grass and trees, and that Jesus was referring to it as a matter of scriptural history in his ministry.

So maybe the "evidence" you seek is right there in scripture, but you need to decide if you believe it or not. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Who knows if it happened in the past or will in the future?

There's evidence of a one time atrocity concerning the murder of children in fire to the gods which was desecrated by Josiah. There's no evidence of the continual burning place of dead criminals or refuse beyond that, that I know of.

But Christ seemed to be saying it will in scripture, and I think he was referring to Isaiah's prophecy when he did. I guess we just have to decide if we believe scripture is "evidence" or not for "Gehenna" being the "garbage dump" for dead bodies to be burned, at least in the future even if not in the past, just as we have to decide if scripture is "evidence" or not for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but that's only if you have a literal interpretation of "Gehenna." I personally don't care if "Gehenna" was used as a "garbage dump" for the burning of dead bodies in the past, even though that's what I've read, but I think it will be in the future because I think that is what Christ is talking about.

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23 & 24)

That becomes a matter of interpretation because when you read the latter half of Isaiah, including chapter 66, there are evidences that this prophecy is veiled language concerning New Jerusalem, which itself is referred to as a bride of Christ. There is a lot of reason to interpret that chapter figuratively rather than literally. But, again that's not the issue for me. The issue for me is why did Christ use Gehenna as a metaphor.

Hey buddy I think you posted in the wrong stall :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Well, I think your last reply just wound up in the wrong thread, bro, but I don't think you should assume that Christ used "Gehenna" as a metaphor even though you say "that's not the issue for me" because I happen to believe he was literally speaking of "Gehenna." And I still don't care if what I think will happen in the future happened in the past.

[Seth]

LOL, I'll fix it

[Tom]

I'm sorry your thread got sidetracked, Joanna, but I think the thing is that we shouldn't cooperate with the lie that "hell" is torture in fire forever because that is only commonly understood due to propagation of the lie by orthodox theology supported by forgery in the translation of scripture specifically twelve times in the New Testament to intentionally confuse "Gehenna" with "hell," which is simply the Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. Check the scripture yourself. (Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6)

[micah7:9]

No one makes a decision to believe.....until the the Spirit ignites the desire. :2c: :dsunny:

[idontknow]

When i was having panic attacks over my friends and family going to an eternal hell. I read online that people who had never heard the Gospel got a free pass to heaven because they did not know any better. My mind envisioned heaven being full of Africans and Chinese ect.... i know that sounds silly. But in my mind at the time they were lucky because they did not have to worry about an eternal hell or burning there for eternity since they were blind to all of it.

Finding religion became the scariest thing i had ever experienced because of evangelicals. I was so scared of God i could not love him i started feeling like if i did anything wrong and forgot to repent for it and died i would burn in eternal hell. And even if i could have kept up with trying to never sin again and succeeded (yeah right). My friends and family were surely going to go to hell and i would never see them again. And while i was in heaven playing harps their flesh was burning off. This whole thing seemed so stupid to me i started looking for other answers. I am really glad i found this forum because this version of Christianity actually makes sense.

Heaven is not a game show where if you pick the wrong door you get zonked for eternity.

[eaglesway]

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having

• the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
  
  
  I think this portion of scripture sets a general tone for how God deals with the ignorant and the innocent. He knows the secrets of the heart. Our God, who is love, could never condemn, or even discipline a person who did not have the capacity to understand something, but love is the universal law of the heart, given by God in Christ, "the light that illumines every person who comes into the world(John 1)
  
  :2c:

[JonesHenry]

There COULD be an "age of accountability" but it surdenly is not found in the bible!


By the way accountability for what? Does the law of God say that the wages of sin is NEVER ENDING torment?


Please show me that verse!

[sheila]

 imo here is where the mystery of Christ and his bride/church union comes in...as a husband and wife...being one flesh spirit to

  produce righteous offspring.   Paul spoke of an unbeliever being willing to dwell with a believing spouse....and how that relationship

  was honourable..the unbelieving spouse sanctified..and the children of the union also sanctified in God's eyes through the believer.

    when the 'word of God' - 'Son of God' come in flesh..O"Immanuel....as a kinsmen redeemer unto His dead in tresspass brother,Adam

    He sanctified all flesh through this union/thus the spirit is poured out on ALL flesh[man] as part of this sanctification.

   did not matter if spouse was unbeliever at time..[for what do you know if you will save your unbelieving spouse]

     He died for us while we were yet as enemies.......[in unbelief].    Rightous offspring is the result of this union/or bearing

   much fruit unto heaven

   ...because of this.....an evil spirit will not confess that 'the Word of God come in flesh"



   

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:

  what you said Sheila  !!

   They  fear  Gods Son and tremble , yet they never confess  He  come in the flesh of so many  ..wow !  twisted

[Tom]

"In grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. (Ephesians 2:8,9)