the verse which 'says' Jesus preached to those in 'hell'

[eaglesway]

IMO we need to read carefully. Does the verse say Christ led men up to heaven? or does it say Christ led captivity captive? and doesn't Paul say that NO ONE has ascended to heaven except Christ? (he who came down from heaven)
Similar to when Christ throws "hell and death into the lake of fire" death is personified as IMO captivity is. In both cases we may be remiss as to include people in these personifications just as ET people make that mistake saying that "People are in hell, hell is cast into the lake of fire, therefore people are cast into the lake of fire which now becomes hell - somehow" :Chinscratch: :Peace2:

Actually it just depends on which version you read.

Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
(Eph 4:8-9)

I believe Jesus is in a state of constant ascension(heaven) and is constantly gathering captives into His train (and His train filled the temple; if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me...)

I think it is a portion of scripture that is a broader look at the spiritual reality of the effect of the resurrection all all creation, than a specificly historic view but.....

I also happen to believe He began that process (an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether in heaven or earth) in Sheol, when He took the keys of Sheol and death- proclaiming "good news" to spirits who had been imprisoned since the days of Noah.

I believe that cause thats just pretty much exactly what Peter said and I think he knew what he was talking about.

"For this reason we have the prophetic word made more sure to which you do well to pay attention like a lamp shining i a dark place until the day dawns and the daystar arises in your hearts"(2 pet 1:16-21)

[lastpost]

The Love of God is all-important, the revelation of Divine Love exemplified through Jesus Christ is what shall save all mankind.

God's Love and redemptive power is brought powerfully home to us by the example of the loving Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep "until He finds it" (Luke 15:4), when He left His dead body on the Cross and went in His spirit to teach people who were once wicked (who had since undergone a long 'pruning' period and were now ready to learn) about His Gospel of Love; Christ was: "put to death in the flesh, but quickened *by the Spirit*: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing" (1 Pet. 3:18-20).

NB: *by the Spirit* - This should be 'in the spirit' with a small 's' but many interpreters, being conditioned to a limited salvation doctrine, alter this to 'by the Spirit' to fit in with their scheme of things, as continuity of life was either consciously or subconsciously ruled out by them i.e. they could not contemplate that the spirit leaves the physical body alive, conscious and sentient, or they could not condone the claim that those killed in the Flood were able to be redeemed from the dark planes of their own making. The Greek words and possible definitions are given below with a more meaningful translation to contrast with the rendering of the Translators:
Greek of 1 Peter 3:18-20:

"...thanatoo sarx de zoopoieo pneuma en hos kai poreuomai kerusso pneuma en phulake pote apeitheo hote hapax makrothumia theos ekdechomai en hemera Noe" (1 Peter 3:18-20)

English of 1 Peter 3:18-20:

"...put to death in the flesh but caused to live in the spirit in which also he pursued the journey to proclaim the gospel to spirits in the place where captives are kept who in time past refused belief and obedience when at one time the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:18-20)

thanatoo: to put to death
sarx: flesh, the flesh, denotes mere human nature
de: but
zoopoieo: to produce alive, to cause to live, make alive, quickening as respects the spirit
pneuma: the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body, God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence
en: in, by, with
hos: who, which, what
kai: and, also
poreuomai: to lead over, carry over, transfer, traverse, travel, pursue or continue the journey one has entered
kerusso: to be a herald, to publish, proclaim openly, proclamation of the gospel
phulake: a watching, place where captives are kept, a prison
pote: in time past
apeitheo: refuse belief and obedience
hote: when
hapax: one time
makrothumia: patience, forbearance, longsuffering
theos: God, of God
ekdechomai: to look for, wait for, await
hemera: the day(s)
Noe: Noah

Furthermore, 1 Peter 4:6, when given its more accurate and unbiased translation appears as this:

"For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit..." (1 Peter 4:6)


We know so little of the Love of God - do not doubt, do not fear, have a great love and deeply humble respect for the Redeemer, the Christ of God, and please try to understand that He displayed in outer visible manifestation the inner invisible Heart of God so that we might have revealed to us how our God feels towards us so, in turn, we might be able to truly love our God - His joy of joys, to be loved by His children with all their heart and soul and mind and strength.

[jbertonbounds]

I have not studied this, but these verses came to mind as I was reading over this post:

2Pe 2:4    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment

Jud 1:6    And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

:Chinscratch:

[marie glen]

...the divine nature activated is the 'quickening spirit' that resurrects those dead in tresspass and sin

   the CHRIST is the resurrection.        it is the quickening spirit.....of the last Adam.

amen, and leads "captivity captive" and the prisoners are all of us.. all saved.. all.. :smile:

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.  Eph 5:14

amen.. and

from Ephesians 5:6-13
"...for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience..  Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. ..have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness... For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.

and verse 14 immediately follows:
"Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."  Eph 5:14

We were dead (already) but now we are alive..

I also happen to believe He began that process (an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether in heaven or earth) in Sheol, when He took the keys of Sheol and death- proclaiming "good news" to spirits who had been imprisoned since the days of Noah.

I never thought of it that way! :dontknow: :thumbsup:
I've always assumed when Eph 4:9 says "what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?" that this refers to, into the earth, as the grave being the lower part.. I don't really think of sheol as a place, and I've always assumed humans believing death to be another dimension of life as the basis of the hell doctrine - what does one do with all the souls having immortality, but unsaved? (as the thinking goes, not that I'm saying there will be any unsaved :smile: ) But of course this is likely one of those things which we shall not know for sure until later..

The Love of God is all-important, the revelation of Divine Love exemplified through Jesus Christ is what shall save all mankind.

God's Love and redemptive power is brought powerfully home to us by the example of the loving Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep "until He finds it" (Luke 15:4)

Amen!! :smile: :mthumbsup:

pneuma: the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body, God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence

pneuma: "figuratively or by analogy" = the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body

but originally, "a current of air, breath"

1 Peter 4:6 - Young's Literal Translation - "for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit."

examples?
Eph 2:5 "even when we were dead in our sins"
Col 2:13 "being dead in your sins"
1 Tim 5:6 "is dead while she liveth"

Happily, death as nonlife, or as an alternate form of living, is a secondary issue, as it's called, not a salvation issue as is also said.. :laughing7:

[marie glen]

I have not studied this, but these verses came to mind as I was reading over this post:

2Pe 2:4    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment

Jud 1:6    And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

:Chinscratch:

2 Peter 2:4 - Young's Literal Translation - "For if God's messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,"

tartarus - #5020 of Strong's, the only time it's used, "deepest abyss of hades" (Greek myth hades - the Greek didn't really believe in death as nonlife, Strong's calls hades "the place of the dead" - which the Greek and most religions think is another form of living, but I think is still the grave :smile: I think sheol where there is neither thought nor doing, eccles, still pertains even though it could be thought after Jesus, it changed, but 1 thess 4 speaks of the dead in Christ as sleeping, and resurrection as waking from the sleep, jmho:)

These are one of the few cases where I feel scripture is metaphorical :smile: and I think the chains of dark gloom is basically a way of saying, once having become imperfect / left their first place, they could not then reverse their course and become again 'perfect' and since God is life itself and perfection, to be imperfect is to be the opposite of God/Life.. hence, they are in chains awaiting judgment.

[jbertonbounds]

Interesting, Marie. :thumbsup:

Some believe that the nephilim mentioned in Genesis were the breed that resulted from the angels who "left their proper place" and interbred with humans before the flood.  I have heard it taught that these are the angels he went and preached to, the ones you referred to in your OP.  However, I don't know what their basis for this belief is.

[marie glen]

     jbertonbounds, :thanks:

[FineLinen]

The Love of God is all-important, the revelation of Divine Love exemplified through Jesus Christ is what shall save all mankind.

God's Love and redemptive power is brought powerfully home to us by the example of the loving Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep "until He finds it" (Luke 15:4), when He left His dead body on the Cross and went in His spirit to teach people who were once wicked (who had since undergone a long 'pruning' period and were now ready to learn) about His Gospel of Love; Christ was: "put to death in the flesh, but quickened *by the Spirit*: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing" (1 Pet. 3:18-20).

NB: *by the Spirit* - This should be 'in the spirit' with a small 's' but many interpreters, being conditioned to a limited salvation doctrine, alter this to 'by the Spirit' to fit in with their scheme of things, as continuity of life was either consciously or subconsciously ruled out by them i.e. they could not contemplate that the spirit leaves the physical body alive, conscious and sentient, or they could not condone the claim that those killed in the Flood were able to be redeemed from the dark planes of their own making. The Greek words and possible definitions are given below with a more meaningful translation to contrast with the rendering of the Translators:
Greek of 1 Peter 3:18-20:

"...thanatoo sarx de zoopoieo pneuma en hos kai poreuomai kerusso pneuma en phulake pote apeitheo hote hapax makrothumia theos ekdechomai en hemera Noe" (1 Peter 3:18-20)

English of 1 Peter 3:18-20:

"...put to death in the flesh but caused to live in the spirit in which also he pursued the journey to proclaim the gospel to spirits in the place where captives are kept who in time past refused belief and obedience when at one time the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:18-20)

thanatoo: to put to death
sarx: flesh, the flesh, denotes mere human nature
de: but
zoopoieo: to produce alive, to cause to live, make alive, quickening as respects the spirit
pneuma: the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body, God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence
en: in, by, with
hos: who, which, what
kai: and, also
poreuomai: to lead over, carry over, transfer, traverse, travel, pursue or continue the journey one has entered
kerusso: to be a herald, to publish, proclaim openly, proclamation of the gospel
phulake: a watching, place where captives are kept, a prison
pote: in time past
apeitheo: refuse belief and obedience
hote: when
hapax: one time
makrothumia: patience, forbearance, longsuffering
theos: God, of God
ekdechomai: to look for, wait for, await
hemera: the day(s)
Noe: Noah

Furthermore, 1 Peter 4:6, when given its more accurate and unbiased translation appears as this:

"For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit..." (1 Peter 4:6)


We know so little of the Love of God - do not doubt, do not fear, have a great love and deeply humble respect for the Redeemer, the Christ of God, and please try to understand that He displayed in outer visible manifestation the inner invisible Heart of God so that we might have revealed to us how our God feels towards us so, in turn, we might be able to truly love our God - His joy of joys, to be loved by His children with all their heart and soul and mind and strength.

Indeed! The love of God reaches to the lowest hell. Love, the esseence of our heavenly Father, never fails...NEVER. I am inclined to believe when the risen Son of the highest preached zao life to imprisoned spirits of disobedient individuals from the great flood, remarkable results transpired.

[FineLinen]

What is Zao?

Zao=

John 5:25

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall zao."

John 6:51

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall zao for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 6:57

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I zao by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall zao by me."

John 6:58

"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall zao for ever."

John 6:69

"And we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the zao God."

John 7:38

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of zao water."

John 11:25

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the 'zwhv' (zoe): he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he zao."

1 Peter 4: 5,6

"Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they may be judged according to men in the flesh, but zao according to God in the spirit."

1 John 4:9

"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might zao through Him."

1 Peter 1:3

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a zao hope by the resurrection of Christ from the dead."

1 Peter 2:5

"You also, as zao stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God."

Heb. 4:12

"The word of the Lord is zao, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword....."

Heb. 7:25

"Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by Him, seeing He ever zao (s) to make intercession for them."

Heb. 10:38

"Now the just shall zao by faith...."

2 Tim. 3:12

"Yea, and all that will zao godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

2 Tim. 4:1

"...the Lord Jesus who shall judge the zao and the dead."

Phil. 1:21

"For to me to zao is Christ, and to die is gain."

Gal. 2:20

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I zao; yet not I, but Christ zao in me; and the life which I now zao in the flesh I zao by the faith of the Son of God who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Gal. 3:11

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident; for, the just shall zao by faith."

Gal. 5:25

"If we zao in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

2 Cor. 13:4

"For though He was crucified through weakness, yet He zao by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall zao with Him by the power of God toward you."

"For this is why the gospel was preached to the dead as well, that while they are judged in the flesh as men, they may zao as God lives in the spirit." -James Moffatt-

[jbertonbounds]

Dunno.
I am not seeing that in any of the translations.
Where did it come from?

[FineLinen]

Dunno.
I am not seeing that in any of the translations.
Where did it come from?

You are not beholding what, Jbertonbounds?  :sigh:

ζάω=

HERE

[eaglesway]

frequently it is rendered Zoe in the margins, dictionaries, that may be what you are seeing Jb

[jbertonbounds]

Dunno.
I am not seeing that in any of the translations.
Where did it come from?

You are not beholding what, Jbertonbounds?  :sigh:

ζάω=

HERE

:dsunny:
Ah, I see. 
A Greek word with a beautiful meaning. 
Deeper meaning than simply "life." 
"Abundant life," perhaps?

[jbertonbounds]

The scriptures mean so much more when we dig into the old languages in which they were originally penned.

[FineLinen]

Ah, I see. 
A Greek word with a beautiful meaning. 
Deeper meaning than simply "life." 
"Abundant life," perhaps?

Bingo, my friend. Zao life is not simply life, but the life of God in many Scriptures. When the Christ arose from the dead by the power of God, He ministered/ preached life, yes abundant life, to the spirits in the prisonhouse of death, leading all of them in his triumphal procession.

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of zao/ living water."

[jbertonbounds]

When the Christ arose from the dead by the power of God, He ministered/ preached life, yes abundant life, to the spirits in the prisonhouse of death, leading all of them in his triumphal procession.

Can you give me the scripture reference for this. 
I would like to do some further study.
Thanks.

[FineLinen]

When the Christ arose from the dead by the power of God, He ministered/ preached life, yes abundant life, to the spirits in the prisonhouse of death, leading all of them in his triumphal procession.

Can you give me the scripture reference for this. 
I would like to do some further study.
Thanks.

My friend, the passage of Scripture under consideration is...

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Jesus Christ also died for our sins once for all. He the just suffered for the unjust; to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits. They had refused obedience long ago, while God waited patiently in the days of Noah and the building of the ark, and in the ark a few persons, eight in all, were brought safely through the water."

1 Peter 4:6 

"Why was the gospel preached to those who were dead? In order that, although in the body they received the sentence common to man, they might in the spirit be alive with the life of God."

You might also be interested in the word studies link (down below) regarding these passages from St. Peter under consideration.

[marie glen]

I've never understood what folks who believe in et, have thought the 2nd resurrection (from death and the grave) of all those not believing or even not hearing, was all about.. It's my understanding the day of Judgement, the Great White Throne Judgement, surely will be a review of all human history, the 'good' the bad, and the ugly.. Most of it being the last two.. a full review of the human race and all its history of what went on throughout the age of mankind upon earth not closely linking to life with the Father (i.e. life as most presently know it).

Et, assumes sentence is passed before 'judgment'.

If the 1st advent of Jesus fulfilled the Hebrew Spring Holy days, then doesn't it stand to reason the long 2nd advent is prophesied by and will fulfill the Fall Holy Days? of Trumpets, 10 days later, Atonement, 5 days later, Tabernacles.

Fulfilled by Trumpets at His return (esp the last when as in Mt 24 He sends out His angels to gather His elect).. 1000 years later, 'Judgment Day, and ___? years later "God will now Tabernacle with mankind" when aLL things have been made new.

Atonement.. white linen/wedding clothes.. White Throne.. (judgment will be, surely? surprise! atonement realized.)

To use an ET likeness.. if a bank pays my debt (in this case death/nonlife, the opposite of God/Life/Perfection) isn't my debt paid? whether I know it or not?

At the closing of judgement/atonement day "all those not believing will go to the 2nd death"..

It seems to me, if my loved one died, then after the millenium/1000 year reign, my loved one is resurrected in the 2nd resurrection, then my loved one lives through and witnesses what surely has to be a rather long 'day' of the examination of all lives.. all human history.. (an intense 'day' of review for all of the 1st resurrection and the angels which are "watching") ...after all that, will my loved one "believe" his/her debt has been freely paid and forgiven?

[mplsfitter539]

Correct me if I am wrong but Jesus was truly dead and in the grave for 3 days and nights. Now after that he was resurrected to life filled with the spirit of the Father, fully glorified and in spirit. Why do most believe that when he died on the cross that he went somewhere (to the spirits in prison)? How could he do that while he was dead? I have considered that possibly the time that he spent on earth after his resurrection was when he preached to those who were dead. Dead spiritually not necessarily dead physically. 

[jbertonbounds]

Well let's see, if I remember correctly, my ET dad (a Baptist minister) used to teach that Jesus would come and rapture all believers dead and alive (the dead first) off to heaven.  They would all reign over earth from heaven for a literal 1000 years.  He taught that the unbelievers and those who never heard would face a hellacious 7-year tribulation, then the literal millennium would begin.  This rapture would include the resurrection of all the dead bodies of all the dead believers, which would be glorified and reunited with their soul, which was already with the Lord since they died, and then immediately after that (an unperceivably short period of time), the living would be raptured and their bodies glorified.

When you read the Revelation and study eschatology from the UR perspective, it is pretty obvious that this doctrine if pretty distorted by human tradition and literalism.  :doh:

[jbertonbounds]

PS - my dad wrote and published a book and workbook on this and taught it to congregations for years. :sigh:

[jbertonbounds]

PS PS

Sad but true: :sigh:
My dad now has Alzheimer's and is no longer capable of deep conversation or Bible study.
I didn't embrace UR when his mind was good.
If I had, I might have been the only one in this world who could have gotten him to reconsider his beliefs about ET.
[eyes full of tears right now]

[lomarah]

:'(
I worked in a private nursing home with ten Alzheimer's patients. It was probably my favorite job to date but it was also the hardest, watching the families suffer with their loved ones. It's an awful disease.

I saw a video on facebook that my nurse friend shared a couple weeks back. It was of a lady who had been in a home for quite a while and she pretty much had completely shut down, stopped verbalizing and everything. A woman (christian) who does touch therapy (or something, I can't remember what she called it), went in and began to get close to her, stroking her cheeks and singing her old favorite songs to her (Jesus loves me, etc). By the end the woman was singing along with her. It was awesome.

Thanking God that He is doing away with all of these diseases and death and sickness soon!! I can't wait.  :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

:'(
I worked in a private nursing home with ten Alzheimer's patients. It was probably my favorite job to date but it was also the hardest, watching the families suffer with their loved ones. It's an awful disease.

I saw a video on facebook that my nurse friend shared a couple weeks back. It was of a lady who had been in a home for quite a while and she pretty much had completely shut down, stopped verbalizing and everything. A woman (christian) who does touch therapy (or something, I can't remember what she called it), went in and began to get close to her, stroking her cheeks and singing her old favorite songs to her (Jesus loves me, etc). By the end the woman was singing along with her. It was awesome.

Thanking God that He is doing away with all of these diseases and death and sickness soon!! I can't wait.  :HeartThrob:

AMEN! Praise to the Father!

[marie glen]

Correct me if I am wrong but Jesus was truly dead and in the grave for 3 days and nights. Now after that he was resurrected to life filled with the spirit of the Father, fully glorified and in spirit. Why do most believe that when he died on the cross that he went somewhere (to the spirits in prison)? How could he do that while he was dead? I have considered that possibly the time that he spent on earth after his resurrection was when he preached to those who were dead. Dead spiritually not necessarily dead physically.

I think the verse says Jesus preached via the Spirit to those who would perish (dead in their sins) i.e. that He preached to them while the ark was being built.. but man's Greek based thinking of dead being another form of life, has twisted the scripture.

This also covers the scripture that Jesus 'went to the lower parts of the earth" that lower part of the earth being the grave, just as, imo, the "realm of the dead" (the definition for 'hades') is still "the grave".  :gsmile: