1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Has this been mentioned? Most interpret this to mean Jesus went to 'hell' and preached to those who were in 'hell' namely the ones who perished in the deluge of Noah's day. So (according to their doctrine) why bother? And also, why only those ones?
I believe these verses mean Christ, by the Spirit, preached to those who were disbelieving in the days when Noah was building the ark. Doesn't it make more sense the Spirit of God would be trying to persuade them to believe before the deluge, and not after they had perished in the flood? Or do we suppose God hadn't a care? :smile:
Not only that Marie but IMO, Jesus preaching to those that were to spend eternity burning in the flames of torment is an additional cruely from God, sorta like God saying "na-na na-nah you're going to burn for-ever - that's what you get for not loving me."
What they call insult to injury since the ten commandments hadn't even been given at that point.
To me, just more proof that "death cannot seperate us from the love of God and contrary to ET doctrine, your eternal fate is NOT decided at one's death.
I hadn't even realized that! "Judged" guilty of breaking the law before the law was given.. and "na na nana na"! Absolutely! :LH: How much sense does thAt make!?
Marie, I think you hit the nail on the head! As I began to read your post, I began to think that the past tense did NOT indicate that Jesus preached to the dead in Hell while He was in the tomb. No, it did not exclude Him preaching way back then, when the ark was being built. Then, I read you saying the same thing I was thinking! There goes another prop of the Hell doctrine. :gimmefive:
Quote from: marie glen on March 09, 2013, 02:04:50 AM
I believe these verses mean Christ, by the Spirit, preached to those who were disbelieving in the days when Noah was building the ark.
Quote from: marie glen on March 09, 2013, 02:04:50 AM
I believe these verses mean Christ, by the Spirit, preached to those who were disbelieving in the days when Noah was building the ark.
I get the sense marie. I think I may have a problem with the results though. Given Christ's success rate when he preached in Jerusalem and its environs, I would be more convinced if there were a lot more people in the Ark ie those who heard Christ, and repented and went with Noah and family.
By this theory, Christ's success rate at reaching the people in those days was zip/nada when we read what happened next.
Just my 2.5 cents (inflation)
VB, eight souls were saved through the flood, so it was not nada. In His NT visitation, more were saved. In the Second Coming, as we call it, many more will be saved. At the close of the historical ages, as I understand it, ALL will be saved. A progressive work.
Just my two c-notes (hyperinflation). :laughing7:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 09, 2013, 10:27:35 PM
VB, eight souls were saved through the flood, so it was not nada.
Got it, but those guys were there because of Noah, whom God already called rigtheous. If Chirist actually went back in history and preached to the masses, I would anticipate more then the ones which were going in the first place. I would expect to see people repenting and coming along with Noah. Again ... just my opinion.
Well, if the wife, sons, and son's wives went on board, and ONLY Noah was righteous, it was still not nada. As one Christian said long ago, God hangs the heaviest weights on the thinnest wires, an expression which derives from old clock technology.
Ever wonder how they felt, hearing people shouting, screaming, and pounding on the door of the ark, after it started raining?
Not much they could do after God sealed the outside personally with his own hand. Besides what would they say? "For 100 years, "I told you so" 2.5 cents - inflation :LH:
Don't forget the companion verses. He not only preached to them, he led the captives to heaven in victory.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
--Eph 4
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.
--Psa 68
Questionable.
Quote from: MarieMost interpret this to mean Jesus went to 'hell' and preached to those who were in 'hell' namely the ones who perished in the deluge of Noah's day. So (according to their doctrine) why bother? And also, why only those ones?
He mentions this in the context of talking about water baptism. His point is: water doesn't save, Christ saves.
Now, who will want to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it. So don't worry or be afraid of their threats. 15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it. 16 But do this in a gentle and respectful way. Keep your conscience clear. Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ. 17 Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong!
18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
19 So he went and preached to
the spirits in prison— 20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. 21
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.22 Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.
--1 Pet 3
8 That is why Scripture says,
"When he went up to his place on high,
he led a line of prisoners.He gave gifts to people."
--Eph 4
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
--Eph 4
"lower" [parts of the earth]
G2737
κατώτερος
katōteros
kat-o'-ter-os
Compound from G2736; inferior (locally, of Hades): - lower.
IMO we need to read carefully. Does the verse say Christ led men up to heaven? or does it say Christ led captivity captive? and doesn't Paul say that NO ONE has ascended to heaven except Christ? (he who came down from heaven)
Similar to when Christ throws "hell and death into the lake of fire" death is personified as IMO captivity is. In both cases we may be remiss as to include people in these personifications just as ET people make that mistake saying that "People are in hell, hell is cast into the lake of fire, therefore people are cast into the lake of fire which now becomes hell - somehow" :Chinscratch: :Peace2:
I think it's more a matter of how you read it and what you believe. He is the conquering warrior, returning home with the spoil, leading a host of captives from the enemy.
He leads in this parade those who are prisoners of war [captivity] that he has now captured for himself and brought home with him. This is a military reference to a conquering King returning home in victory.
He led captivity captive
KJV Commentary writes that...
This is a quotation from Psalm 68:18, a messianic psalm of victory in which God is praised for deliverance. He led captivity captive. The inferences drawn from the triumphal return of the King are: (1) the thought of victory; and (2) the bestowal of gifts. The captives are most probably the Old Testament saints in sheol (hades). (Dobson, E G, Charles Feinberg, E Hindson, Woodrow Kroll, H L. Wilmington: KJV Bible Commentary: Nelson)
John MacArthur explains that...
In His crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus Christ conquered Satan, sin, and death (cf. Col 2:!5-note), and by that great victory He led captive a host of captives, who once were prisoners of the enemy but now are returned to the God and the people with whom they belong. (MacArthur, J: Ephesians. Chicago: Moody Press)
"captivity"
G164
αἰχμαλωτός
aichmalōtos
aheekh-mal-o-tos'
From αἰχμή aichmē (a spear ) and a derivative of the same as G259 ; properly a prisoner of {war} that {is} (generally) a captive: - captive.
...what about Paul saying.."I once knew a man caught up to the third heaven"..if all mankind
will be raised up in Christ..then all mankind will ascend to Heaven....
I am from Above............I will draw all men unto me.......
if the children of the resurrection are like the angels.....the children of God....angels
ascend[thou shalt behold the angels descending and ascending on the son of man}
just saying.....there are great and wonderful things prepared that have never entered
the heart of man.....
Quote from: sheila on March 10, 2013, 06:53:44 PM
...what about Paul saying.."I once knew a man caught up to the third heaven"..if all mankind
will be raised up in Christ..then all mankind will ascend to Heaven....
I am from Above............I will draw all men unto me.......
if the children of the resurrection are like the angels.....the children of God....angels
ascend[thou shalt behold the angels descending and ascending on the son of man}
just saying.....there are great and wonderful things prepared that have never entered
the heart of man.....
I was thinking the same thing Sheila, the ladder being his DNA that we ascend and descend on
:thumbsup: divine nature activated...born from above[in Christ/spirit] as all have
bore the image of the corrupt..so,too,shall all bear the image of the incorruptible one.
...the divine nature activated is the 'quickening spirit' that resurrects those dead in tresspass and sin
the CHRIST is the resurrection. it is the quickening spirit.....of the last Adam.
Awesome Shelia ! :iagree:
Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Jhn 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
If we can see also where Paul says we are makking you chaste virgins for Christ , that same holy seed that the Holy Spirit hovered over Mary being the the ''holy thing'' formed in her
and Jesus being the firstfruits of those who slept , making alive to the Father , than we can grasp the signifigance to how its done , your virgin /pure mind can recive the holy seed and the Christ in you is also formed by the Power of God moving within your being bringing new life in Christ , its just amazing to consider it !
Well the Spirit in me sure is leaping for joy!!! :banana:
Quote from: lomarah on March 10, 2013, 08:13:21 PM
Well the Spirit in me sure is leaping for joy!!! :banana:
Quote from: sheila on March 10, 2013, 07:01:44 PM
:thumbsup: divine nature activated...born from above[in Christ/spirit] as all have
bore the image of the corrupt..so,too,shall all bear the image of the incorruptible one.
Oh yes Lomarah, my heart, my mind, my spirit join you in leaping for joy.
Sheila, thanks for a such a perfect, profound, positive definition of DNA
DNA=divine nature activated
You two sisters have shared with us many edifying, faithbuilding words. Many blessings.
As you have too anna! Blessings right back at ya! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.
17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
--Gen 28
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
--1 Pet 3
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Eph 5:14
:thumbsup:
Love them verses Molly !!1 Peter 3 helped me realize just how much suffering is done because of sin fruit of death
and the suffering for proclaiming and being hid in Jesus Christ bringing many back and birthing new Life
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 10, 2013, 03:22:54 PM
IMO we need to read carefully. Does the verse say Christ led men up to heaven? or does it say Christ led captivity captive? and doesn't Paul say that NO ONE has ascended to heaven except Christ? (he who came down from heaven)
Similar to when Christ throws "hell and death into the lake of fire" death is personified as IMO captivity is. In both cases we may be remiss as to include people in these personifications just as ET people make that mistake saying that "People are in hell, hell is cast into the lake of fire, therefore people are cast into the lake of fire which now becomes hell - somehow" :Chinscratch: :Peace2:
Actually it just depends on which version you read.
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE
A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
(Eph 4:8-9)
I believe Jesus is in a state of constant ascension(heaven) and is constantly gathering captives into His train (and His train filled the temple; if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me...)
I think it is a portion of scripture that is a broader look at the spiritual reality of the effect of the resurrection all all creation, than a specificly historic view but.....
I also happen to believe He began that process (an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether in heaven or earth) in Sheol, when He took the keys of Sheol and death- proclaiming "good news" to spirits who had been imprisoned since the days of Noah.
I believe that cause thats just pretty much exactly what Peter said and I think he knew what he was talking about.
"For this reason we have the prophetic word made more sure to which you do well to pay attention like a lamp shining i a dark place until the day dawns and the daystar arises in your hearts"(2 pet 1:16-21)
The Love of God is all-important, the revelation of Divine Love exemplified through Jesus Christ is what shall save all mankind.
God's Love and redemptive power is brought powerfully home to us by the example of the loving Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep "until He finds it" (Luke 15:4), when He left His dead body on the Cross and went in His spirit to teach people who were once wicked (who had since undergone a long 'pruning' period and were now ready to learn) about His Gospel of Love; Christ was: "put to death in the flesh, but quickened *by the Spirit*: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing" (1 Pet. 3:18-20).
NB: *by the Spirit* - This should be 'in the spirit' with a small 's' but many interpreters, being conditioned to a limited salvation doctrine, alter this to 'by the Spirit' to fit in with their scheme of things, as continuity of life was either consciously or subconsciously ruled out by them i.e. they could not contemplate that the spirit leaves the physical body alive, conscious and sentient, or they could not condone the claim that those killed in the Flood were able to be redeemed from the dark planes of their own making. The Greek words and possible definitions are given below with a more meaningful translation to contrast with the rendering of the Translators:
Greek of 1 Peter 3:18-20:
"...thanatoo sarx de zoopoieo pneuma en hos kai poreuomai kerusso pneuma en phulake pote apeitheo hote hapax makrothumia theos ekdechomai en hemera Noe" (1 Peter 3:18-20)
English of 1 Peter 3:18-20:
"...put to death in the flesh but caused to live in the spirit in which also he pursued the journey to proclaim the gospel to spirits in the place where captives are kept who in time past refused belief and obedience when at one time the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:18-20)
thanatoo: to put to death
sarx: flesh, the flesh, denotes mere human nature
de: but
zoopoieo: to produce alive, to cause to live, make alive, quickening as respects the spirit
pneuma: the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body, God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence
en: in, by, with
hos: who, which, what
kai: and, also
poreuomai: to lead over, carry over, transfer, traverse, travel, pursue or continue the journey one has entered
kerusso: to be a herald, to publish, proclaim openly, proclamation of the gospel
phulake: a watching, place where captives are kept, a prison
pote: in time past
apeitheo: refuse belief and obedience
hote: when
hapax: one time
makrothumia: patience, forbearance, longsuffering
theos: God, of God
ekdechomai: to look for, wait for, await
hemera: the day(s)
Noe: Noah
Furthermore, 1 Peter 4:6, when given its more accurate and unbiased translation appears as this:
"For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit..." (1 Peter 4:6)
We know so little of the Love of God - do not doubt, do not fear, have a great love and deeply humble respect for the Redeemer, the Christ of God, and please try to understand that He displayed in outer visible manifestation the inner invisible Heart of God so that we might have revealed to us how our God feels towards us so, in turn, we might be able to truly love our God - His joy of joys, to be loved by His children with all their heart and soul and mind and strength.
I have not studied this, but these verses came to mind as I was reading over this post:
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: sheila on March 10, 2013, 07:08:01 PM
...the divine nature activated is the 'quickening spirit' that resurrects those dead in tresspass and sin
the CHRIST is the resurrection. it is the quickening spirit.....of the last Adam.
amen, and leads "captivity captive" and the prisoners are all of us.. all saved.. all.. :smile:
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2013, 12:05:16 AM
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Eph 5:14
amen.. and
from Ephesians 5:6-13
"...for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. ..have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness... For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.
and verse 14 immediately follows:
"
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." Eph 5:14
We were dead (already) but now we are alive..
Quote from: eaglesway on April 07, 2013, 05:00:21 AM
I also happen to believe He began that process (an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether in heaven or earth) in Sheol, when He took the keys of Sheol and death- proclaiming "good news" to spirits who had been imprisoned since the days of Noah.
I never thought of it that way! :dontknow: :thumbsup:
I've always assumed when Eph 4:9 says "
what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?" that this refers to, into the earth, as the grave being the lower part.. I don't really think of sheol as a place, and I've always assumed humans believing death to be another dimension of life as the basis of the hell doctrine - what does one do with all the souls having immortality, but unsaved? (as the thinking goes, not that I'm saying there will be any unsaved :smile: ) But of course this is likely one of those things which we shall not know for sure until later..
Quote from: lastpost on April 07, 2013, 11:36:53 PM
The Love of God is all-important, the revelation of Divine Love exemplified through Jesus Christ is what shall save all mankind.
God's Love and redemptive power is brought powerfully home to us by the example of the loving Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep "until He finds it" (Luke 15:4)
Amen!! :smile: :mthumbsup:
Quote from: lastpost on April 07, 2013, 11:36:53 PM
pneuma: the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body, God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence
pneuma:
"figuratively or by analogy" = the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body
but originally,
"a current of air, breath"1 Peter 4:6 - Young's Literal Translation - "for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men
in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit."
examples?
Eph 2:5 "even when we were dead in our sins"
Col 2:13 "being dead in your sins"
1 Tim 5:6 "is dead while she liveth"
Happily, death as nonlife, or as an alternate form of living, is a secondary issue, as it's called, not a salvation issue as is also said.. :laughing7:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 08, 2013, 05:57:46 PM
I have not studied this, but these verses came to mind as I was reading over this post:
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
:Chinscratch:
2 Peter 2:4 - Young's Literal Translation - "For if God's messengers who sinned did not spare, but with
chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,"
tartarus - #5020 of Strong's, the only time it's used, "deepest abyss of hades" (Greek myth hades - the Greek didn't really believe in death as nonlife, Strong's calls hades "the place of the dead" - which the Greek and most religions think is another form of living, but I think is still the grave :smile: I think sheol where there is neither thought nor doing, eccles, still pertains even though it could be thought after Jesus, it changed, but 1 thess 4 speaks of the dead in Christ as sleeping, and resurrection as waking from the sleep, jmho:)
These are one of the few cases where I feel scripture is metaphorical :smile: and I think the chains of dark gloom is basically a way of saying, once having become imperfect / left their first place, they could not then reverse their course and become again 'perfect' and since God is life itself and perfection, to be imperfect is to be the opposite of God/Life.. hence, they are in chains awaiting judgment.
Interesting, Marie. :thumbsup:
Some believe that the nephilim mentioned in Genesis were the breed that resulted from the angels who "left their proper place" and interbred with humans before the flood. I have heard it taught that these are the angels he went and preached to, the ones you referred to in your OP. However, I don't know what their basis for this belief is.
jbertonbounds, :thanks:
Quote from: lastpost on April 07, 2013, 11:36:53 PM
The Love of God is all-important, the revelation of Divine Love exemplified through Jesus Christ is what shall save all mankind.
God's Love and redemptive power is brought powerfully home to us by the example of the loving Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep "until He finds it" (Luke 15:4), when He left His dead body on the Cross and went in His spirit to teach people who were once wicked (who had since undergone a long 'pruning' period and were now ready to learn) about His Gospel of Love; Christ was: "put to death in the flesh, but quickened *by the Spirit*: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing" (1 Pet. 3:18-20).
NB: *by the Spirit* - This should be 'in the spirit' with a small 's' but many interpreters, being conditioned to a limited salvation doctrine, alter this to 'by the Spirit' to fit in with their scheme of things, as continuity of life was either consciously or subconsciously ruled out by them i.e. they could not contemplate that the spirit leaves the physical body alive, conscious and sentient, or they could not condone the claim that those killed in the Flood were able to be redeemed from the dark planes of their own making. The Greek words and possible definitions are given below with a more meaningful translation to contrast with the rendering of the Translators:
Greek of 1 Peter 3:18-20:
"...thanatoo sarx de zoopoieo pneuma en hos kai poreuomai kerusso pneuma en phulake pote apeitheo hote hapax makrothumia theos ekdechomai en hemera Noe" (1 Peter 3:18-20)
English of 1 Peter 3:18-20:
"...put to death in the flesh but caused to live in the spirit in which also he pursued the journey to proclaim the gospel to spirits in the place where captives are kept who in time past refused belief and obedience when at one time the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:18-20)
thanatoo: to put to death
sarx: flesh, the flesh, denotes mere human nature
de: but
zoopoieo: to produce alive, to cause to live, make alive, quickening as respects the spirit
pneuma: the spirit, vital principal which animates the body, a life giving spirit, a human soul that has left the body, God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence
en: in, by, with
hos: who, which, what
kai: and, also
poreuomai: to lead over, carry over, transfer, traverse, travel, pursue or continue the journey one has entered
kerusso: to be a herald, to publish, proclaim openly, proclamation of the gospel
phulake: a watching, place where captives are kept, a prison
pote: in time past
apeitheo: refuse belief and obedience
hote: when
hapax: one time
makrothumia: patience, forbearance, longsuffering
theos: God, of God
ekdechomai: to look for, wait for, await
hemera: the day(s)
Noe: Noah
Furthermore, 1 Peter 4:6, when given its more accurate and unbiased translation appears as this:
"For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit..." (1 Peter 4:6)
We know so little of the Love of God - do not doubt, do not fear, have a great love and deeply humble respect for the Redeemer, the Christ of God, and please try to understand that He displayed in outer visible manifestation the inner invisible Heart of God so that we might have revealed to us how our God feels towards us so, in turn, we might be able to truly love our God - His joy of joys, to be loved by His children with all their heart and soul and mind and strength.
Indeed! The love of God reaches to the lowest hell. Love, the esseence of our heavenly Father, never fails...NEVER. I am inclined to believe when the risen Son of the highest preached zao life to imprisoned spirits of disobedient individuals from the great flood, remarkable results transpired.
What is Zao?
Zao=
John 5:25
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall zao."
John 6:51
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall zao for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
John 6:57
"As the living Father hath sent me, and I zao by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall zao by me."
John 6:58
"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall zao for ever."
John 6:69
"And we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the zao God."
John 7:38
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of zao water."
John 11:25
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the 'zwhv' (zoe): he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he zao."
1 Peter 4: 5,6
"Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they may be judged according to men in the flesh, but zao according to God in the spirit."
1 John 4:9
"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might zao through Him."
1 Peter 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a zao hope by the resurrection of Christ from the dead."
1 Peter 2:5
"You also, as zao stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God."
Heb. 4:12
"The word of the Lord is zao, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword....."
Heb. 7:25
"Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by Him, seeing He ever zao (s) to make intercession for them."
Heb. 10:38
"Now the just shall zao by faith...."
2 Tim. 3:12
"Yea, and all that will zao godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
2 Tim. 4:1
"...the Lord Jesus who shall judge the zao and the dead."
Phil. 1:21
"For to me to zao is Christ, and to die is gain."
Gal. 2:20
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I zao; yet not I, but Christ zao in me; and the life which I now zao in the flesh I zao by the faith of the Son of God who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Gal. 3:11
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident; for, the just shall zao by faith."
Gal. 5:25
"If we zao in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
2 Cor. 13:4
"For though He was crucified through weakness, yet He zao by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall zao with Him by the power of God toward you."
"For this is why the gospel was preached to the dead as well, that while they are judged in the flesh as men, they may zao as God lives in the spirit." -James Moffatt-
Dunno.
I am not seeing that in any of the translations.
Where did it come from?
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 30, 2013, 05:09:17 PM
Dunno.
I am not seeing that in any of the translations.
Where did it come from?
You are not beholding what, Jbertonbounds? :sigh:
ζάω=HERE (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2198&t=KJV)
frequently it is rendered Zoe in the margins, dictionaries, that may be what you are seeing Jb
Quote from: FineLinen on April 30, 2013, 05:39:48 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 30, 2013, 05:09:17 PM
Dunno.
I am not seeing that in any of the translations.
Where did it come from?
You are not beholding what, Jbertonbounds? :sigh:
ζάω=
HERE (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2198&t=KJV)
:dsunny:
Ah, I see.
A Greek word with a beautiful meaning.
Deeper meaning than simply "life."
"Abundant life," perhaps?
The scriptures mean so much more when we dig into the old languages in which they were originally penned.
QuoteAh, I see.
A Greek word with a beautiful meaning.
Deeper meaning than simply "life."
"Abundant life," perhaps?
Bingo, my friend. Zao life is not simply life, but the life of God in many Scriptures. When the Christ arose from the dead by the power of God, He ministered/ preached life, yes abundant life, to the spirits in the prisonhouse of death, leading all of them in his triumphal procession.
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of zao/ living water."
Quote from: FineLinen on April 30, 2013, 09:39:55 PM
When the Christ arose from the dead by the power of God, He ministered/ preached life, yes abundant life, to the spirits in the prisonhouse of death, leading all of them in his triumphal procession.
Can you give me the scripture reference for this.
I would like to do some further study.
Thanks.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 30, 2013, 10:13:09 PM
Quote from: FineLinen on April 30, 2013, 09:39:55 PM
When the Christ arose from the dead by the power of God, He ministered/ preached life, yes abundant life, to the spirits in the prisonhouse of death, leading all of them in his triumphal procession.
Can you give me the scripture reference for this.
I would like to do some further study.
Thanks.
My friend, the passage of Scripture under consideration is...
1 Peter 3:18-20
"For Jesus Christ also died for our sins once for all. He the just suffered for the unjust; to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits. They had refused obedience long ago, while God waited patiently in the days of Noah and the building of the ark, and in the ark a few persons, eight in all, were brought safely through the water."
1 Peter 4:6
"Why was the gospel preached to those who were dead? In order that, although in the body they received the sentence common to man, they might in the spirit be alive with the life of God."
You might also be interested in the word studies link (down below) regarding these passages from St. Peter under consideration.
I've never understood what folks who believe in et, have thought the 2nd resurrection (from death and the grave) of all those not believing or even not hearing, was all about.. It's my understanding the day of Judgement, the Great White Throne Judgement, surely will be a review of all human history, the 'good' the bad, and the ugly.. Most of it being the last two.. a full review of the human race and all its history of what went on throughout the age of mankind upon earth not closely linking to life with the Father (i.e. life as most presently know it).
Et, assumes sentence is passed before 'judgment'.
If the 1st advent of Jesus fulfilled the Hebrew Spring Holy days, then doesn't it stand to reason the long 2nd advent is prophesied by and will fulfill the Fall Holy Days? of Trumpets, 10 days later, Atonement, 5 days later, Tabernacles.
Fulfilled by Trumpets at His return (esp the last when as in Mt 24 He sends out His angels to gather His elect).. 1000 years later, 'Judgment Day, and ___? years later "God will now Tabernacle with mankind" when aLL things have been made new.
Atonement.. white linen/wedding clothes.. White Throne.. (judgment will be, surely? surprise! atonement realized.)
To use an ET likeness.. if a bank pays my debt (in this case death/nonlife, the opposite of God/Life/Perfection) isn't my debt paid? whether I know it or not?
At the closing of judgement/atonement day "all those not believing will go to the 2nd death"..
It seems to me, if my loved one died, then after the millenium/1000 year reign, my loved one is resurrected in the 2nd resurrection, then my loved one lives through and witnesses what surely has to be a rather long 'day' of the examination of all lives.. all human history.. (an intense 'day' of review for all of the 1st resurrection and the angels which are "watching") ...after all that, will my loved one "believe" his/her debt has been freely paid and forgiven?
Correct me if I am wrong but Jesus was truly dead and in the grave for 3 days and nights. Now after that he was resurrected to life filled with the spirit of the Father, fully glorified and in spirit. Why do most believe that when he died on the cross that he went somewhere (to the spirits in prison)? How could he do that while he was dead? I have considered that possibly the time that he spent on earth after his resurrection was when he preached to those who were dead. Dead spiritually not necessarily dead physically.
Well let's see, if I remember correctly, my ET dad (a Baptist minister) used to teach that Jesus would come and rapture all believers dead and alive (the dead first) off to heaven. They would all reign over earth from heaven for a literal 1000 years. He taught that the unbelievers and those who never heard would face a hellacious 7-year tribulation, then the literal millennium would begin. This rapture would include the resurrection of all the dead bodies of all the dead believers, which would be glorified and reunited with their soul, which was already with the Lord since they died, and then immediately after that (an unperceivably short period of time), the living would be raptured and their bodies glorified.
When you read the Revelation and study eschatology from the UR perspective, it is pretty obvious that this doctrine if pretty distorted by human tradition and literalism. :doh:
PS - my dad wrote and published a book and workbook on this and taught it to congregations for years. :sigh:
PS PS
Sad but true: :sigh:
My dad now has Alzheimer's and is no longer capable of deep conversation or Bible study.
I didn't embrace UR when his mind was good.
If I had, I might have been the only one in this world who could have gotten him to reconsider his beliefs about ET.
[eyes full of tears right now]
:'(
I worked in a private nursing home with ten Alzheimer's patients. It was probably my favorite job to date but it was also the hardest, watching the families suffer with their loved ones. It's an awful disease.
I saw a video on facebook that my nurse friend shared a couple weeks back. It was of a lady who had been in a home for quite a while and she pretty much had completely shut down, stopped verbalizing and everything. A woman (christian) who does touch therapy (or something, I can't remember what she called it), went in and began to get close to her, stroking her cheeks and singing her old favorite songs to her (Jesus loves me, etc). By the end the woman was singing along with her. It was awesome.
Thanking God that He is doing away with all of these diseases and death and sickness soon!! I can't wait. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lomarah on May 07, 2013, 07:24:56 PM
:'(
I worked in a private nursing home with ten Alzheimer's patients. It was probably my favorite job to date but it was also the hardest, watching the families suffer with their loved ones. It's an awful disease.
I saw a video on facebook that my nurse friend shared a couple weeks back. It was of a lady who had been in a home for quite a while and she pretty much had completely shut down, stopped verbalizing and everything. A woman (christian) who does touch therapy (or something, I can't remember what she called it), went in and began to get close to her, stroking her cheeks and singing her old favorite songs to her (Jesus loves me, etc). By the end the woman was singing along with her. It was awesome.
Thanking God that He is doing away with all of these diseases and death and sickness soon!! I can't wait. :HeartThrob:
AMEN! Praise to the Father!
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 07, 2013, 05:30:03 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but Jesus was truly dead and in the grave for 3 days and nights. Now after that he was resurrected to life filled with the spirit of the Father, fully glorified and in spirit. Why do most believe that when he died on the cross that he went somewhere (to the spirits in prison)? How could he do that while he was dead? I have considered that possibly the time that he spent on earth after his resurrection was when he preached to those who were dead. Dead spiritually not necessarily dead physically.
I think the verse says Jesus preached via the Spirit to those who would perish (dead in their sins) i.e. that He preached to them while the ark was being built.. but man's Greek based thinking of dead being another form of life, has twisted the scripture.
This also covers the scripture that Jesus 'went to the lower parts of the earth" that lower part of the earth being the grave, just as, imo, the "realm of the dead" (the definition for 'hades') is still "the grave". :gsmile:
Quote from: lomarah on May 07, 2013, 07:24:56 PM
:'(
I worked in a private nursing home with ten Alzheimer's patients. It was probably my favorite job to date but it was also the hardest, watching the families suffer with their loved ones. It's an awful disease.
I saw a video on facebook that my nurse friend shared a couple weeks back. It was of a lady who had been in a home for quite a while and she pretty much had completely shut down, stopped verbalizing and everything. A woman (christian) who does touch therapy (or something, I can't remember what she called it), went in and began to get close to her, stroking her cheeks and singing her old favorite songs to her (Jesus loves me, etc). By the end the woman was singing along with her. It was awesome.
Thanking God that He is doing away with all of these diseases and death and sickness soon!! I can't wait. :HeartThrob:
:gsmile: :gthumbsup: what a beautiful story!
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 07, 2013, 06:57:42 PM
PS PS
Sad but true: :sigh:
My dad now has Alzheimer's and is no longer capable of deep conversation or Bible study.
I didn't embrace UR when his mind was good.
If I had, I might have been the only one in this world who could have gotten him to reconsider his beliefs about ET.
[eyes full of tears right now]
but your father is completely saved.. yes? whether one believes UR or ET isn't the measure.. but whether one believes upon Jesus.. Even total nonbelievers cannot make it into the kingdom without "believing".. but it's my belief almost all will "believe" once they have experienced being resurrected and have witnessed the long day of review/judgment/atonement.. All believers in Jesus have part in the 1st resurrection.. But of course I can understand your desire to be able to talk of UR with your believing and father who has lived a faith based life.. :girlheart:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 07, 2013, 06:57:42 PM
PS PS
Sad but true: :sigh:
My dad now has Alzheimer's and is no longer capable of deep conversation or Bible study.
I didn't embrace UR when his mind was good.
If I had, I might have been the only one in this world who could have gotten him to reconsider his beliefs about ET.
[eyes full of tears right now]
If he's been spiritually reborn through being given faith in Jesus (and I believe he certainly has), then your dad's OK j...in fact, soon he's going to be better off than he's ever been in this life. Blessings.
Thanks, ya'll. I know he always has been a true believer, and he was always a very genuine loving person. Missing the truth on a point of secondary doctrine does not condemn a person. (primary doctrine being the basic belief that Jesus is the savior) :banana:
My regret is that I didn't get to share UR with him.
Quote from: lomarah on May 07, 2013, 07:24:56 PM
:'(
I worked in a private nursing home with ten Alzheimer's patients. It was probably my favorite job to date but it was also the hardest, watching the families suffer with their loved ones. It's an awful disease.
I saw a video on facebook that my nurse friend shared a couple weeks back. It was of a lady who had been in a home for quite a while and she pretty much had completely shut down, stopped verbalizing and everything. A woman (christian) who does touch therapy (or something, I can't remember what she called it), went in and began to get close to her, stroking her cheeks and singing her old favorite songs to her (Jesus loves me, etc). By the end the woman was singing along with her. It was awesome.
Thanking God that He is doing away with all of these diseases and death and sickness soon!! I can't wait. :HeartThrob:
Reminds me of one of my "adventures"... I retired from teaching when I was 55 and decided to "try" something that would put me in an entirely different environment... so I decided to become a Nurses Aide... among the more painful experiences (but one that turned into a joyfilled one) was watching and listening to a couple of the NA's in their treatment of the "old folks"... one of the old women was the mother of a highly respected member of the community and so a couple of the NA's took great delight in encouraging this women who loved to sing to sing some of the latest, sexually-oriented songs, all the while laughing at her... one day, I saw the woman in a general bathroom and went toward her... she started pushing me away until she realized that I was not one of NA's that tormented her... I'm a borderline monotone, but I started singing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the bible tells me..." her hands gently grasped mine hands and she sang with me... after that whenever she saw me in the hallways she wanted me to come to her... deep within that woman was a knowledge of Jesus...
Anna that breaks my heart. I have heard stories of people mistreating the elderly in nursing homes but never saw it first hand. :sigh: So thankful the Lord brought her you. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on May 07, 2013, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 07, 2013, 05:30:03 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but Jesus was truly dead and in the grave for 3 days and nights. Now after that he was resurrected to life filled with the spirit of the Father, fully glorified and in spirit. Why do most believe that when he died on the cross that he went somewhere (to the spirits in prison)? How could he do that while he was dead? I have considered that possibly the time that he spent on earth after his resurrection was when he preached to those who were dead. Dead spiritually not necessarily dead physically.
I think the verse says Jesus preached via the Spirit to those who would perish (dead in their sins) i.e. that He preached to them while the ark was being built.. but man's Greek based thinking of dead being another form of life, has twisted the scripture.
This also covers the scripture that Jesus 'went to the lower parts of the earth" that lower part of the earth being the grave, just as, imo, the "realm of the dead" (the definition for 'hades') is still "the grave". :gsmile:
Marie, I agree.
jbertonbounds, my father is still alive and he believes as your father did. I just spoke to him not 5 minutes ago about a scripture that has the word "everlasting" in it. He is stubborn and refuses to even entertain the idea that King Jame could have gotten it wrong. Oh well I usually end conversations with him by just calmly telling him that if he doesn't change his mind now he along with all the others who believe like him will have all the time it takes for God to change their minds. Then I quote:
Philippians 2
10 That at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that
every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
Quote from: anna274 on May 07, 2013, 08:58:27 PM
Reminds me of one of my "adventures"... I retired from teaching when I was 55 and decided to "try" something that would put me in an entirely different environment... so I decided to become a Nurses Aide... among the more painful experiences (but one that turned into a joyfilled one) was watching and listening to a couple of the NA's in their treatment of the "old folks"... one of the old women was the mother of a highly respected member of the community and so a couple of the NA's took great delight in encouraging this women who loved to sing to sing some of the latest, sexually-oriented songs, all the while laughing at her... one day, I saw the woman in a general bathroom and went toward her... she started pushing me away until she realized that I was not one of NA's that tormented her... I'm a borderline monotone, but I started singing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the bible tells me..." her hands gently grasped mine hands and she sang with me... after that whenever she saw me in the hallways she wanted me to come to her... deep within that woman was a knowledge of Jesus...
That's the amazing love of Jesus in you, Anna. May God bless you, sweet child of God!
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 07, 2013, 10:02:29 PM
jbertonbounds, my father is still alive and he believes as your father did. I just spoke to him not 5 minutes ago about a scripture that has the word "everlasting" in it. He is stubborn and refuses to even entertain the idea that King Jame could have gotten it wrong. Oh well I usually end conversations with him by just calmly telling him that if he doesn't change his mind now he along with all the others who believe like him will have all the time it takes for God to change their minds. Then I quote:
Philippians 2
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
Fitter, somehow I think my dad might have listened, and eventually realized UR is real. He always did so love the Lord.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 07, 2013, 11:41:51 PM
Quote from: anna274 on May 07, 2013, 08:58:27 PM
Reminds me of one of my "adventures"... I retired from teaching when I was 55 and decided to "try" something that would put me in an entirely different environment... so I decided to become a Nurses Aide... among the more painful experiences (but one that turned into a joyfilled one) was watching and listening to a couple of the NA's in their treatment of the "old folks"... one of the old women was the mother of a highly respected member of the community and so a couple of the NA's took great delight in encouraging this women who loved to sing to sing some of the latest, sexually-oriented songs, all the while laughing at her... one day, I saw the woman in a general bathroom and went toward her... she started pushing me away until she realized that I was not one of NA's that tormented her... I'm a borderline monotone, but I started singing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the bible tells me..." her hands gently grasped mine hands and she sang with me... after that whenever she saw me in the hallways she wanted me to come to her... deep within that woman was a knowledge of Jesus...
That's the amazing love of Jesus in you, Anna. May God bless you, sweet child of God!
On that day long ago, I believed that the Jesus in her drew me to her... I was so lonely for human fellowship ... you know, where two or three are gathered in His Name, He is in the midst... she and I actually never had a conversation and yet in her presence (in the hallways), I always felt His love for both of us.
That's awesome anna. :HeartThrob:
I love how you share your personal experinces Anna with us ! Amen , she has faith enough to know Jesus is Lord !! :HeartThrob: Oh the Power of the Cross of Jesus Christ making Him Lord of the dead and living ! Lord of all !!
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him
Amen Anna !
Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice. :dsunny:
Phl 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord [is] at hand.
Phl 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Phl 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Phl 4:8 ¶ Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. :HeartThrob:
Phl 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
:girlheart: