Questions on Hell by an inquirer.

[Gary Amirault]

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have just finished looking at your website tentmaker.org.  I am interested in some of the assertions made on your website.  I was hoping that  you could answer some of my questions and clarify your perspective.
Am I correct in concluding that your website holds the position that there is no hell?
If there is no hell what is mankind being saved from?
Why do we need faith if people are saved by Jesus whether they know it or not?  Ephesians 2:8- "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," , Hebrews 11:6- But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. People did not need ambiguous faith, but faith in Christ to be saved.
If the concept of universalism is true and there is no hell, why did Jesus say in Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction , and many there be which go in thereat."?
Why did Christians such as Paul endure suffering in order to evangelize people if they were going to be saved anyway?  Why would Jesus command the disciples to proclaim the good news?
What do you make of the White Throne Judgement seen in Revelation 20:11-15?
I apologize if my questions don't take into account all of your writings as I have just recently discovered your site and have not had the chance to thoroughly examine your opinions.  Truly it is difficult to marry a God of Love with eternal torment.  I will say this however, our sins are worthy of death (Romans 6:23) and Jesus died so that we would not have to perish(John 3:16).  That is love.  If God did not punish, He would not be just.  The fact that He provides ANY way of salvation from sure damnation is gracious and loving. Also, those who do not know God and who have fervently sought not to know Him and not to recognize Him (Romans 1:18-32) will receive their wish and be permanently cut off from Him.  He is Love, Light, Redemption and Goodness.  Cut off from Him, the only true reality would be quite literally, hell.

I am not a bible scholar.  I am just a regular Christian so if you could make your points plain and substantiated by scripture, in context, I would greatly appreciate it.

God Bless

[Kratos]

Poster,

Why do you believe that we need an eternal hell in order to desire to be saved? To me, I am being saved from separation from God and saved unto relationship and restoration to Him. This means that my spirit has been saved from death, my soul is being saved from the carnal mind and unto the mind of Christ and my body is being saved from corruption and mortality to incorruption and immortality.

Certainly plenty of reason to suffer the loss of the things of this world and certainly reason enough to compel others to be saved, also.

If you saw people suffering in malnutrition and you had plenty of food, but you were told that no one will die and all will eventually be fed would you stop trying to tell people that they can eat now? I do believe that there is no eternal Hell and all will eventually be saved so that God can be all in all, but I would still not wish any to spend one more day in separation from God.

I hope this helps,

John

[gatheredfragments]

2Sa 22:4  I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
2Sa 22:5  When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid;
2Sa 22:6  The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
2Sa 22:7  In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.


Gary:  Here you have David, king of Israel, a type of Jesus Christ, who is praying to God, and in his expression he is saying that he is experiencing the sorrow of hell in his 'present tense' situation.  Hell is given to us symbolically to describe the pain and suffering of being apart from God.  David's pain, and our pain, is similar to that same pain Jesus experienced on the cross, when we too realize our soulish wants are crucified. 

          In my opinion, hell is real.  Hell is the outside place from Jerusalem, it is the area outside the literal city, that was where the refuse was burned.  It is the same by symbolism of the experience here David speaks of, the same Jesus suffered for all of our being saved, and the same I experience as I face the pain of my soul fighting my spirit.  For my spirit longs to be like my God, and my soul longs to be satisfied of the world. 

Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

here Jesus tells us, that our mouths will create our hell, that our words spoken, such as labeling another man a 'fool' will cause us to be in 'danger of hell fire'.  Burning off that 'pride'.  Hell fire, if there is a hell, must certainly be real!  But fire itself is not tangible and has no form, it exists off of air and of a substance that gets burned away.  In the case of humans, that is flesh and what we create by our idle words. 

Mat 12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


the 'day of judgment' is always 'now'.  Jesus isn't talking about the day of the 'great white throne' when all creation will be judged, he is talking about the 'now' experience of being alive on earth.

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32  But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33  Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

From my understanding, Hell is very real, but the purpose of hell is not to kill life, but to kill what is anti christ in us, right now.  Hell is always associated with fire.  So is the sanctification process

Eze 22:18  Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
Eze 22:19  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
Eze 22:20  As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
Eze 22:21  Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
Eze 22:22  As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

the purpose of Hell is to purify us.  even if the eternal damnation of hell fire were true..then the purpose would remain the same...either way...we end up purified.  Here God tells us we will be gathered into the fiery furance and melted, and what is dross, or vile is destroyed forever, but we are changed not destroyed.  To be melted is to be changed in shape and function, to be made mutable and useful again.



**this is MY understanding as the spirit has shown me regarding hell**

[Inquirer]

Hello,

I am still reading the spirited debate concerning the questions that I posed to the moderator.  I would like to clarify some points though.

1) 1 John 1:9- says that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just  to forgive us our sins.  If one of you, God forbid, had a loved one murdered and the judge of the court said to the murderer that he is forgiven, I don't think that you could hardly call that justice.  You surely wouldn't think that the judge is righteous.  But God is both just, righteous AND gracious and merciful in that He does not overlook sin, but allows for atonement to occur through a sacrifice.  Hell is the choice for those who do not accept the way out. He does not force anyone to accept it, but they must accept it to be saved. God has gone to great lengths to keep people from hell.

2) Hell was made for satan and his demons, not men.  The arguments that alter the reality of hell based upon God's relationship with men seem to not hold water because in 2 Peter 2:4 we see that angels also can go into hell.

3) Antichrist and the false prophet are cast into that same Lake of fire (Revelation 19:20) as those from the White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20:11-15)  Will the Antichrist be saved too?  He and the flase prophet are, of course, men.

4) Using the prophetic psalms speaking of Christ to substantiate claims that unsaved men will not go to a literal hell seems a little, well, off.  I mean we know that Christ is different in that He was supposed to be the first risen from the dead into a glorified state.  I would think that a man would at least need to be in Christ in order to even think about looking at hell from this perspective.  Also the dynamics of what happened on the cross as they are described in Psalm 22 are difficult to understand at the least.  The Lord took the burden of all the sin in all the world for all time in a few hours.  To first claim we understand that and secondly extrapolate it to this argument seems inappropriate.

5) Lastly, many people use very heart wrenching emotional stories to show how the teaching of hell is not merciful or loving.  All of these terrible things that we see in the world were caused by sin.  People are starving because mankind is too selfish to feed everyone.  We have plenty of food to feed all of the people who are starving but don't for political and financial reasons.  Our world is slowly devolving and perishing because, as the Lord said, the wages for sin is death.  Just like a little leaven which works through the whole lump, sin started with one act of disobedience and has grown into what we see today.  The atrocities that we see today have to do with mankind's sin either in wrongdoing, or not doing right to help others.  Trying to alter scripture to remove hell is not the solution.  Jesus spoke about hell and destruction a lot.  There is no way around it.  Instead of focusing our energy on wondering why God would create hell, why not focus our energy on spreading the good news of the gospel?  The same way one, in my opinion, twists the scriptures to remove hell, I could twist to remove our assuredness of salvation.  But that would not be the truth no matter how well I made my argument.

Romans 3:4

God Bless

[FineLinen]

  But God is both just, righteous AND gracious and merciful in that He does not overlook sin, but allows for atonement to occur through a sacrifice.  Hell is the choice for those who do not accept the way out. He does not force anyone to accept it, but they must accept it to be saved. God has gone to great lengths to keep people from hell.

Inquirer: rest assured that the Living One will not "force" anyone to His Presence. In fact, the bowing of every knee in every dimension of the universe, and the confession IN the Name of Jesus by every being in the universe, to the glory of God the Father, is not by rote or perfunctory genuflections but one of unrestrained worship of thanksgiving and praise. That is precisely what exomologeo and homologeo mean in Phil. 2:10 and 11.

And Enquirer, you can also rest assured that the Holy One does not overlook sin by sweeping it into some area of the universe where His Presence is not, which is simply impossible, because our God is everywhere (omnipresent). And rather than overlooking sin by mere forgiveness, His forgiveness is linked with change & transformation. Nor, does our Father punish an innocent man to let the guilty go free. No, no, no. We are accounted righteous (justification by grace) at one stage of the journey, but ultimately we are "made the righteousness of God in Him."

And last, but not least, everything comes from our God: everything. And just as everything comes from Him, so does everything exist by Him. And just as everything comes from Him, and everything exists by Him, so everything ends in Him. That would be the whole enchilada, the ta panvte, the all. He is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of all that is to whom be glory forevermore.

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends. Source, Guide and Goal of all that is...."
Alternate viewpoint =

From Him some things come, through Him some things exist, and in Him some things end. Potential Source, potential Guide, potential Goal of some that is to Whom be potential glory forevermore.

So wide is His care, and so minute, that a falling sparrow is noted and remembered. Peter gives Him the title of "the faithful Creator," meaning thereby that His responsibilities are fully met in a manner only possible to infinite power and love. If His creatorship yearns over a fallen broken bird, how much more will it reckon with all the forces that have combined to mar the image of Himself in the man He has made. If He employs the discipline of a father, the sacrificial love of a mother, the stern justice of a judge and the passionate affection of a husband — and all these are figures chosen by Himself to set forth His attitude towards men and His work for and in them — it is to the end that His great designs of love may ultimately triumph. If He turns men to destruction, it is that He may say, "Return ye children of men." (Ps. 90:3). If the vessel is marred in the hand of the Potter, it is that He may make it again another vessel. (Jer. 18:4). If His work is marred, then His own face will be more marred than any man's, that He may buy back those who have sold themselves for nought. Creation is full of mysteries, but the revealed character of the Creator suffices to assure us of a triumphant solution to them all. Only a traitor to His person and character would deny such a God this certainty. -A. E. Saxby-

[FineLinen]

The fact that He provides ANY way of salvation from sure damnation is gracious and loving. Also, those who do not know God and who have fervently sought not to know Him and not to recognize Him (Romans 1:18-32) will receive their wish and be permanently cut off from Him.  He is Love, Light, Redemption and Goodness.  Cut off from Him, the only true reality would be quite literally, hell.

Inquirer: let this seep deep into your life. Jesus Christ declares to His disciple's "You did not choose Me." The Source of rectification is not based in the "will of man", nor the desires of the flesh, but quite firmly in the Will of all wills....born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man." Not of will, not of flesh, not of man, but of God.

You are right, Inquirer, if it is possible to be "cut off" from Him and His glorious Presence, it would quite literally exceed anything the vilest doctrine of hell in any form (gehenna, sh@owl/hades or tartarus) could express. But good news, my friend, the Master Locksmith holds in His glorious hands the keys of death and hell, and I want to assure you that He is quite capable of turning the keys in every life in the proper time and place.

"If I make my bed in hell, behold You are there."

For I am absolutely convinced, and fully persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth nor any creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing! Nothing! Nothing! Not death, not life, not powers, not angels, not principalities, no creature. Nothing shall separate us from the love of God manifest in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-Vladimir M. Gelesnoff-

The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The 'eternal state' is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the "final perfection" yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God.

[SeekerSA]

Dear Inquirer

I have not read up on this whole thread but I wish to pose a question or two.

Would you agree Jesus died for all mankind's Sin?

There can only be one answer to that:

YES

Now if that is true, what more can we add to the cross?

NOTHING

Now anything anyone discusses concerning Christianity that contradicts those two facts means we are either:

1. Into (dead) works which means man must find God and not the other way round
2. We deny the sovereignty of God and His ability and desire to accomplish His will.

That said, do we teach an easy gospel.  YES.  Jesus made it so simple and yet just like the 1st lie "Thou shalt surely not die", the devil has us into working our salvation and condemning those who have not been drawn to Jesus to this mythical place of Eternal fiery Torment.

AND that my friend is why people reject the "Twisted Good News"  A Loving God with a BBQ?

God has not given us a spirit of fear now has He? 

Where do you suppose fear comes from, we are talking Fire Insurance gospel here.

Who are we to fear (hold in reverence)? Only one answer to that too -  GOD

Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened is not about salvation.  Carnality which is enmity towards God does not do this in the natural.  God has to literally drag us to the point where we get the Ah Ha Eureka moment and at that point, you cannot refuse.

The knocking and seeking is finding Gods purpose for your life and discovering the Father's heart, and His heart is only filled with LOVE. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Blessings

[pneuma]

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have just finished looking at your website tentmaker.org. I am interested in some of the assertions made on your website. I was hoping that you could answer some of my questions and clarify your perspective.
Am I correct in concluding that your website holds the position that there is no hell?

Hi inquirer which hell would you be referring to? Hell in the KJV is translated hell from 4 different words. I think you must be referring to DEATH as in the second death which is NOT hell for death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Rev.20:14

If there is no hell what is mankind being saved from?

Man is not saved from death but out of it, for we all at one time were dead in trespasses and sins. Eph.2:1

Why do we need faith if people are saved by Jesus whether they know it or not? Ephesians 2:8- "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," , Hebrews 11:6- But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. People did not need ambiguous faith, but faith in Christ to be saved.

Question to you: Was Thomas saved?
Many are just like Thomas today Inquirer, unless they see the nail scared hands they will not believe. Now here is the greatness of the gospel, shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Ro.3:3 God forbid.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Some will believe without seeing/by faith and others will only believe after they have seen. For the blind shall see, the deaf shall here and the dead shall be raised Lu.7:22

If the concept of universalism is true and there is no hell, why did Jesus say in Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction , and many there be which go in thereat."?
Why did Christians such as Paul endure suffering in order to evangelize people if they were going to be saved anyway? Why would Jesus command the disciples to proclaim the good news?

I think Kratos gave you a good answer here so will leave it at that.

What do you make of the White Throne Judgement seen in Revelation 20:11-15?

I do have an answer to the great white throne inquirer in an article I wrote awhile back but it is to long to post as an answer to your question, but if you are interested pm me and I will send it to you.

I apologize if my questions don't take into account all of your writings as I have just recently discovered your site and have not had the chance to thoroughly examine your opinions. Truly it is difficult to marry a God of Love with eternal torment.

Nay it is impossible to marry the two after the traditional view of eternal torment.

I will say this however, our sins are worthy of death (Romans 6:23)

I agree for the wages of sin are DEATH, so what then do you do with eternal torment?
The scriptures do not say the wages of sin is eternal torment.
And if the wages of sin are eternal torment as tradition teaches does that not create a very very big problem?
For if the wages of sin is eternal torment and Jesus Christ paid the wages of sin then is not Christ being eternally tormented? And if Christ is not being eternally tormented how can it be said He paid the wages of sin?

and Jesus died so that we would not have to perish(John 3:16). That is love. If God did not punish, He would not be just. The fact that He provides ANY way of salvation from sure damnation is gracious and loving. Also, those who do not know God and who have fervently sought not to know Him and not to recognize Him (Romans 1:18-32) will receive their wish and be permanently cut off from Him. He is Love, Light, Redemption and Goodness. Cut off from Him, the only true reality would be quite literally, hell.

Ro.1:18-32 says nothing about being permanently cut of from God.

I am still reading the spirited debate concerning the questions that I posed to the moderator. I would like to clarify some points though.

1) 1 John 1:9- says that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If one of you, God forbid, had a loved one murdered and the judge of the court said to the murderer that he is forgiven, I don't think that you could hardly call that justice. You surely wouldn't think that the judge is righteous. But God is both just, righteous AND gracious and merciful in that He does not overlook sin, but allows for atonement to occur through a sacrifice. Hell is the choice for those who do not accept the way out. He does not force anyone to accept it, but they must accept it to be saved. God has gone to great lengths to keep people from hell.

The idea that God does not deal out punishment for sin is one of the BIG misunderstandings of what we who believe in universal salvation believe.

We all reap what we sow, and will be beaten with many or few stripes according to what we have sown. We just believe that the punishment meets the crime so to speak.

Now lets look at your murder example.
Someone murders your loved one and the next day gets saved, so according to your own understanding this murderer gets a free ride into heaven because he got saved.

Now I ask you, is that justice?

Is it just for God to forgive the murderer of your loved one just because he got saved?
Now look at your own statement.

If one of you, God forbid, had a loved one murdered and the judge of the court said to the murderer that he is forgiven, I don't think that you could hardly call that justice. You surely wouldn't think that the judge is righteous.

You say you would hardly call the judges forgiveness of the murder of your loved one justice. And yet you believe that because he got saved God forgave him the murder of your loved one.

Again I ask, where is the justices you speak of?

It is NOT what I believe that is an injustice bro/sis it is what you believe that is actually an injustice.

So which belief actually teaches God justice?
Your belief that someone can murder your loved one, accept Christ into their life and are forgiven without penalty or the belief that we all reap what we sow?

2) Hell was made for satan and his demons, not men. The arguments that alter the reality of hell based upon God's relationship with men seem to not hold water because in 2 Peter 2:4 we see that angels also can go into hell.

3) Antichrist and the false prophet are cast into that same Lake of fire (Revelation 19:20) as those from the White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20:11-15) Will the Antichrist be saved too? He and the flase prophet are, of course, men.

Why would you think they cannot be saved? For the gates of the city are still open, the Spirit and the Bride say come and all who will may take of the water of life freely. Rev.22:14-17

5) Lastly, many people use very heart wrenching emotional stories to show how the teaching of hell is not merciful or loving. All of these terrible things that we see in the world were caused by sin. People are starving because mankind is too selfish to feed everyone. We have plenty of food to feed all of the people who are starving but don't for political and financial reasons. Our world is slowly devolving and perishing because, as the Lord said, the wages for sin is death. Just like a little leaven which works through the whole lump, sin started with one act of disobedience and has grown into what we see today. The atrocities that we see today have to do with mankind's sin either in wrongdoing, or not doing right to help others. Trying to alter scripture to remove hell is not the solution. Jesus spoke about hell and destruction a lot. There is no way around it. Instead of focusing our energy on wondering why God would create hell, why not focus our energy on spreading the good news of the gospel? The same way one, in my opinion, twists the scriptures to remove hell, I could twist to remove our assuredness of salvation. But that would not be the truth no matter how well I made my argument.

Again I have to ask which hell are you speaking of? 4 Different words are translated hell in the KJV, so which hell is it you are referring to.
The word hell is of pagan origin and is not a word used in either the Hebrew or Greek scriptures. So hell actually does not come from scripture and is found nowhere in it.

Now if you want to speak on Sheol, Hades, Gahanna or Tartarus that is a whole other ball game so to speak, for they most definitely are found in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

[noname]

what a man sow he will reap...

if we sow death, destruction, pain, hunger...that would be our reward in the next life...outside the city of the new Jerusalem where there'll be "gnashing of teeth"...inside the city would be the peacemakers, bringers of Life, Light and Love

yes, by our actions here on earth we create our own destinies...heaven or hell

[shibboleth]

5) Lastly, many people use very heart wrenching emotional stories to show how the teaching of hell is not merciful or loving.  All of these terrible things that we see in the world were caused by sin.  People are starving because mankind is too selfish to feed everyone.  We have plenty of food to feed all of the people who are starving but don't for political and financial reasons.  Our world is slowly devolving and perishing because, as the Lord said, the wages for sin is death.  Just like a little leaven which works through the whole lump, sin started with one act of disobedience and has grown into what we see today.  The atrocities that we see today have to do with mankind's sin either in wrongdoing, or not doing right to help others.  Trying to alter scripture to remove hell is not the solution.  Jesus spoke about hell and destruction a lot.  There is no way around it.  Instead of focusing our energy on wondering why God would create hell, why not focus our energy on spreading the good news of the gospel?  The same way one, in my opinion, twists the scriptures to remove hell, I could twist to remove our assuredness of salvation.  But that would not be the truth no matter how well I made my argument.

Romans 3:4

The reason these stories are so heart wrenching is because they show us a God that requires of us what He doesn't require of Himself. He asks people to do things He knows it's impossible for them to do, in the flesh anyway. He tells us to love our enemies, do good to those who use and abuse you, pray for those who treat you in a cruel manner, and God Himself won't do the same things to those who hate Him? It's impossible that the creature could be kinder, gentler, more loving than the Creator.

You say the wages of sin is death, and rightly so. But, who was the one who died for the sin of the whole world? Do you still sin? How do you know your sin in covered in Christ's atonement? What did you do to "earn" your salvation? I did nothing, it was a gift of grace bestowed on me by God simply because He loves me and forgave me 2,00 years ago when Jesus said, 'It is finished.' So, what was finished? The law was finished, we are now under grace and our sredemptions was accomplished then. If you choose to live under law, then you must keep all 600+ laws. Here are some of them you may have forgotten about that you must keep; can't eat shrimp, pork, or even eat kosher foods that have been cooked in an unkosher stove in case of cross contamination with forbidden meat. Do you keep the Sabbath perfectly from sunrise to sunset. BTW, what do people in northern Alaska do about Sabbath when they have 6 months of sunlight and 6 months of darkness every year? Do you stone people who disobey God's laws? Read Lev. and find out how many people should be stoned for disobeying God's commands.

Let's look at what Jesus said about sin. If you LOOK at a woman to lust after her you've sinned. Let' apply this to the other commands in the OT. If you even THINK about disobeying Sabbath you have sinned. If you only THINK about killing someone, you have commited sin. Just our thought condemn us because we have far less ability to control our thoughts than our actions. If you want to be under law, then you must be under all the law, and not pick and choose which ones you want to follow.

Since I am under grace, I have no fear of my Father. It's only the law that causes people to fear God. Grace really scares people becasue they think it leads to lawlessness. The opposite is actually true. If you are under law, you become frustrated and tired because YOU CAN"T KEEP IT. Either you give up trying, or your opinions of what laws to keep are lessened over time. But, under grace I feel no guilt for any of my sins and I love God for what He has done for me. I know He accepts me just as I am and loves me for who I am. That's  when judging others stops; when I can see how much God loves and redeems all of mankind. He first loved us, he seeks us, he saves us, he forgives us. We do nothing for our salvation. He truly did it all.

Jesus did talk about hell (Gehenna, Hades) a few times. But, who and what he was talking about has been lost in translation. He was talking many times to the Pharisees and scribes who were hard hearted and very judgmental. Jesus was showing then how all their law keeping wasn't going to cut it when compared to the righteousness of God. If we compare ourselves among ourselves, we look pretty good. But if we compare ourselves with God, all our righteousness is like filthy (menstrual) rags. Just a bloody mess worth throwing in the fire to be burned. Noone can stand in God's presence in their own righteousness. So, Christ clothed us all with his righteousness and now we all stand clean and pure before a holy, just, loving, merciful God.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Inquirer

3) Antichrist and the false prophet are cast into that same Lake of fire (Revelation 19:20) as those from the White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20:11-15)  Will the Antichrist be saved too?  He and the flase prophet are, of course, men.

Ah, yes. The Revelation. One would need a revelation in order to understand it, it is all of the spirit. You know, I was on a different thread today and the discussion was on various things, one of those was addressing whether angels were sexless ( had to do with Genesis chapter 6). When one of the other people (firstborn888) made a point that these discussions always lead to a bad direction. I agreed, and have decided to do my best not to discuss non-profitable things.

Later, I realized, that for all the teaching, preaching, learning, studying - that we on earth do not even know (for sure) a simple thing like this about the angels of heaven - that we just really don't know much at all. But... I do believe that Jesus's primary message was one of love, grace, forgiveness, reconcilliation (or am I wrong), with us being in kind of a state of ignorance, how is it that this message was seemingly bypassed for a horrible vision of the traditional teaching of eternal torment which is pounded endlessly into christians, like a wicked horrible device.

13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Now these 2 versus are often used to support hell - but I believe that is wrong - UR is a belief in life for all men (a narrow path) - ET is a belief that leadeth to destruction for most - (and this is true of ET

and many there be which go in thereat:

, in fact, most christians are die-hard believers and advocates of eternal torment, they use it like a sword.

Either a person is looking for life(light) or destruction(darkness)...And (as I have said before) both will find what they are looking for right in the Holy Bible, the sword of God.

Revelation 13:10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

(sorry if I didn't awnser you question directly, as I don't belief anyone on earth has a complete understanding of the Revelation of John), what I'm trying to show is just that, since no man understands it, why do they go for the most horrible possible way of interpreting it?...if someone says they do completely understand it (church doctrine and pastors included), hold on tight....the mysteries of God are finished....or..well..another one bites the dust.

[noname]

I think we should distinguish between "punishment" and "eternal torment"...hell does not necesserily mean "eternal torment"

Yeshua clearly states in the Gospels and in Revelation that people performing certain actions without repentance will be punished (judged) ie be outside the walls of the new Jerusalem...but not "forever and ever and ever"

God is a just judge and the punishment will always fit the crime...the evil seeds we have sown and not repented of will blossom and produce an evil harvest...

furthermore, punishment is always remedial and for our benefit...to cleanse us from all iniquity