Annihilation vs. Restoration

[jabcat]

Having a discussion with someone today about Luke 12:4,5 ("fear God who can cast into gehenna").  The word is apparently apokteino (annihilate).  Of course God does "annihilate" the wicked/wickedness, but I believe that's temporal.

My statement was that to see UR one has to see "with a clear vision" (looking at it in a new way, not so encumbered with traditional "church" teaching), dig deeper, etc.;  but that just a "simple" reading of scripture would actually show more support for annihilation as opposed to the distortion of ET with which "we" have been so engrained the past 1500 years.  But then of course that Paul (and elsewhere) talks of restoration/renewal.

Has anyone done a succinct study on this and/or have any clear thoughts on it you've been given and/or have read?  Thanks, blessings.

[donken]

2 Corinthians 3:6 tells us we are to minister or share the Spirit that GIVES LIFE, and we are not to minister the letter that kills.   That chapter also says that the ministering of condemnation and death Moses is to be abolished.    Moses' glory {enlightenment} is to be done away with or replaced BY the ministering or GLORY {enlightenment} of the SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE. {God}.

We must understand scripture, as you say, with a different mind, one that is SINGLE of eye.  Life only always is that single of eye, understanding all scripture spiritually when the Spirit of Life is completing the scriptures.  That is the "hidden manna", a spiritual understanding of all scripture with the knowledge that we are not to see it as if life AND death were physically described in it.  That is the spirit of the world, where physical meanings of scripture are worldly, of the spirit of the world.  Moses, a picture of the belief that God does both good and evil, taught the spirit of the world, life AND death, good AND evil, Blessing AND cursing.

We are now, if able, to bring all scripture into an understanding of How the HOLY SPIRIT, the quickening Spirit that is the LORD FROM HEAVEN as 1 Corinthians 15 tells us, fulfills those scriptures and brings all into LIFE by fulfilling them SPIRITUALLY.   God does not deal with the outer flesh body of man.  God deals with the contents or spirit OF MAN in each body and makes the INSIDE CLEAN.  As He said, we will have the STONY HEART removed by having a NEW heart of flesh established in it's place.  So, the ministering of the Spirit of God that GIVES Life will be about how this is accomplished by God IN US ALL, one by one.

2Ch_15:13  That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

This is about the death of the "old man" who does not seek God or want the God of LIFE, but believes in A God that is does both good and evil. 

Pro_21:6  The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.

The above scripture shows us that people who desire worldly treasures by immoral means seek death, but of course they are doing it without really knowing that what they are doing is going to die, as well as themselves if God does not deal with them first.  When God really begins to deal with a person, they often will seek to die spiritually or even physically but they will not be able to get out of God's hand.  They will seek to escape like JONAH IN THE WHALE, having some spiritual despair and\or even some worldly ailments and sorrows but God will have determined they are going to be matured and they will not be able to die physically to get out of the sorrows UNTIL like Jonah, they turn and agree with God to do what THEY KNEW God wants of them.

Amo_5:8  Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:

Rev_9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

This is when God is judging men AS SONS.  ONLY the SON is judged by God and that judgment is part of establishing eternal life in mankind.  The crucial part is that we must agree willingly in sincere honesty, not only just to get relief from the consequences of our own disobedience.  I mean, it has to be "true" heartfelt repentance from our own ways by properly understanding and deciding that the evil we have done is truly wrong and hurtful and evil.  Then each one of us must participate willingly and in true agreement with God that what He wants us to be like is truly good and we will reap eternal life at the end of it.  We all individually have to be perfected.

When it says in scripture that Jesus said it is finished on the cross, it was HIS DYING that was finished.   Establishing salvation in people in the world was not finished.  His living is NEVER FINISHED.  His witness of God through remaining as the character of God only all through his sorrows and pain and suffering until he died was finished.  He never witnessed any lusts of the flesh such as anger, hate, unforgiveness, physical vengeance, etc.  These lusts of the flesh and the world only were not witnessed by Him as being HIS WAYS.  That is what was finished.  His living is never finished.   He is to be raised from the dead in us to LIFE ETERNAL IN US now.  It is beginning now otherwise we could not know these things now. 

But... they have to be known or understood by us first, so we know what is going on and can participate willingly because if we do not know we are blind and can not yet be enlivened by God.  Love does not "rape" or dictate.  The love must be ours and be what we obey as who we are, the love in us being OUR GOD and we will be the SONS OF LOVE\LIFE\HOLINESS\PEACE.... all being ONE SPIRIT.... which is GOD.

Love, holiness, peace eternal, are all the attributes and state of LIFE, true life and life only without any death using it to operate by.  We as mankind can only do evil because we also have life in us.  God is now going to remove the evil deeds we use life in us to put into operation.  Evil etc. is to be CIRCUMCISED out from among the attributes of life in us, while we are alive.  To do this we can not die or we will have to come back and do it anyway, the resurrection of those who have physically died for the purpose of being perfected {completed}.  That is how thorough and Holy God\life is.  No pretend, no imputedness is real.

In Isaiah 33 we read that someone is going to DWELL or LIVE with ever lasting burnings.  Our God is a consuming fire scripture says.  It is Spiritual.  It is LOVE.  Love established in us and unable to be seated any more is that consuming fire.  Hate, anger, greed, envy, etc. is "burned up" and become ashes when LOVE is active and alive by being continually felt forever.  Love as a mental concept is does not have living POWER.  Love must be continually FELT to continually have power to keep the use of life for purposes of death, dead.  When Love is felt continually, all the causes of death and sorrow and sadness etc. are dead IN that person who is LOVE only always.

Rev_9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
This is speaking about seeking physical death and not being able to find it.  Like Jonah in the whale.  A wicked and untoward Generation shall seek a sign and there shall no sign be given to them except the sign of Jonah.  I realize many take this as Jesus being in the grave for three days but it also is a sign of what people who run away from doing what God's will is AFTER THEY KNOW what it is, will encounter spiritually until the death of death in them is accomplished.  The correction of a SON.

Donken

The word death in Luke
God bless, ken

[josh]

Rev_19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev_20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.