If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?

[Chris]

This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

The weird thing about it is.... once you do 'see' it, it is so "plain as day" that you can't refuse to see it anymore. Very much like the inability to un-ring a bell.... making you WONDER just how on earth you couldn't and didn't see it all along.  :mshock:  At least that has been my experience.  :thumbsup:

[legoman]

It is a wonderous thing.  It truly is amiracle of God that not everyone sees the truth of UR right away.

Only those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" will understand the truth.  And UR is the truth.

The plain reason why it is not understood is God did not want UR to be plainly understood!  He has a purpose and a master plan.

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Luke 18:34
The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

Matt 13
44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


All these scriptures are quite revealing.  God blinds us, causes us to be in unbelief, so he can have mercy on us later.  He sends a strong delusion on us, so we will believe a lie (hm, what would be a big LIE that many people believe in?)  It pleases God to use the foolishness of preaching to get his word out.  Even Jesus own disciples didn't understand until God opened their eyes.  The Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure that you don't even realize is there.

So why is it this way?  Why do we go through this life?  As near as I can tell, it is so we will learn to be good (righteous) and learn to be humble.  And there is a lot of humbling to be done  :winkgrin:

Legoman

[legoman]

Should have added:  Most people probably won't believe UR until Jesus returns and they are thrown into the Lake of Fire...

And to keep on topic with this board (Judgement):

9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
       in the morning my spirit longs for you.
      When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

God's judgments are the vehicle which will bring about our righteousness!

Legoman

[B_T]

Unfortunately the truth will never be popular. Jesus had 12 disciples and this was only a small fraction of the human population.

[Doc]

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

UR is what I classify as a secondary doctrine, as any eschatological doctrine is a secondary doctrine. God wrote the Bible to instruct the living. The Great Commission is for the living and gets a higher priority in the Bible compared to the Gospel in hell.

I genuinely do agree with the exception of those cases where the ET doctrine has been taken to an extreme and has caused harm.  Then this is the necessary Penicillin.

Yes, except the problem is that ET is often used as the eschatological crutch for everything else. Missions are particularly driven by ET in the ET'ers minds. During our pastor's four week sermon series against universalism this summer, he emphatically stated; "If hell is not eternal, then I quit...right now!" So clearly, to him eternal hell is the very foundational reason for what he does!

The ironic thing about this is, this was during the same sermon that he accused universalists of using emotional arguments, then he turned right around and pulled this and a number of other emotional arguments of his own out of his hat...

Arrgh!

[WhiteWings]

maybe it is plain for the people that are not indoctrinated,

Surely indoctrination is part of it.
Translating isn't hard. But to keep all the tiny twists is almost impossible. Especially if you translated ancient Hebrew to modern English. Diffrent language contruct. Diffrent times. And diffrent type of society. Add to that the fact that words change. Sometimes a little. Sometimes they take the opposite meaning.
Personally I never watch English movies with Dutch subs. Lots of wordtwists can't be translated. And for movies that lean heavily on the plot that's harmful for the whole movie. Same for the Bible I think.

when i first saw the comparision of revelation 21/22 and 1. corinthians 15 i thought, corinthians goes beyond the revelation

I think so too. It's also very much in line with teh whole UR concept.

[martincisneros]

Unfortunately the truth will never be popular. Jesus had 12 disciples and this was only a small fraction of the human population.

I believe that when Jesus said to disciple the nations in Matthew 28 that it's because He fully intended to empower us to do it and because He fully intended for us to be able to get it done.  Think through your statement here about the truth will never be popular.  It presupposes either the ET mindset or the Premillenial or Amillenial mindsets.  Either people will never see it because God had some higher purpose in damnation than in salvation, or because people are sooo stupid that God can never get through to all of them if He gave Himself an eternity.  Or, your comment presupposes the "Jesus could come back in 10 minutes" paradigms of Premillenialism or Amillenialism, so why bother trying to do what Jesus said in discipling the nations 'cause Jesus will sabatoge His own purpose by snatching us away from it (usually with some flavoring of "and then He'll trash and burn all of the rest forever and ever" being added to the mix) which again bottomlines in God either having some higher purpose in damnation than in salvation or humanity's beyond the reach of the nations genuinely being discipled.  Your comment was minimally nonsequitar.  Because Jesus has never gotten through to all of these stupid apes doesn't mean that He never will. :cloud9:



If anyone with limited computer knowledge didn't catch my computer links above, I added this link for more on amillenialism and premillenialism: http://www.berith.org/essays/esch/esch04.html

[sven]

something came in my mind, I've read the stuff of the Indian mystic Sandhu Sudhar Singh, it were many chapters, this guy wrote about hell, even eternal torment! and yet anyway, in one chapter he wrote finally all are saved!

maybe UR isn't the most important doctrine, but to life a righteous live, if on every page of the bible would be written, all will be saved surely - maybe people wouldn't take judgment serious enough, people wouldn't life a righteous live, but i think UR is plain enough to be not refused if argumented good and biblical for it.

the teaching of eternal hell should have never become a dogma, now where it is a dogma it is important to reject this doctrine in my opinion. do you get what i want to say?

[MusicLover123]

Because that would spoil the fun when everyone else eventually learns who God is, wouldn't it?  :winkgrin:

What is a great party if people aren't surprised?

Pro_25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Mat_13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mar_4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables

Luk_8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

1Ti_2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

[marie glen]

Because that would spoil the fun when everyone else eventually learns who God is, wouldn't it?  :winkgrin:

What is a great party if people aren't surprised?

:OhNo: Wow.. I like thinking of it that way..! ..Like on Judgment 'Day' it's "Surprise! It's Day Of Atonement!" :banana: ..besides, after rising from their grave, who's not going to "believe"? (Even if some for a time experience weeping or gnashing of teeth in an outer darkness..)

Pro_25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

A 'cosmic' jigsaw puzzle.. life/the Word which I think a part of it is bible prophecy (the message/lesson of - that only truth can stand/endure, and God is life).

Mat_13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mar_4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables

Luk_8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

1Ti_2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    :thumbsup:

"This is His commandment, believe on the One He sent forth" ..."written in the Lamb's Book of Life.."

[Batty Bible Page]

 :dsunny:Maybe a better question would be, how can an all knowing eternally benevolent creator of all that is create people he knows will become sinners? And then open the Hell he created for the first of his Angels who fell and those angels that followed that angel, for what they did in their part in the war in Heaven? And then open that Hell for people who turn out to live and die being fallible as God made them 
people?

And still be omni-benevolent? And all knowing. And say in his own words that all things are predestined by him for his glory and according to his will?

There's a passage concerning our deaths that reads, the body returns to the dust from whence it sprang and the soul to the God who gave it. There's no side road in that scripture that says, that soul that dies goes to Hell because the body in which it dwelt was considered dead while alive and sinning.

[MusicLover123]

::dsunny: Maybe a better question would be, how can an all knowing eternally benevolent creator of all that is create people he knows will become sinners? And then open the Hell he created for the first of his Angels who fell and those angels that followed that angel, for what they did in their part in the war in Heaven? And then open that Hell for people who turn out to live and die being fallible as God made them 
people?

Exactly!

In fact, instead He sends them to Ronald McDonald, where they get fattened by Big Macs for all eternity, with an increasingly high cholesterol level.

[marie glen]

Amen, afterlife torment by God who is love and who is all-mighty/all powerful, is simply not at all logical! But contradicts those truths which God declares in His Word.

[MusicLover123]

The thing that amazes me is that you could tell et Believers this until you are blue in the face and they still wouldn't believe you... Absolutely deaf dumb and blind. You couldn't make it up! I say this in the nicest possible way I am far from perfect far far far.

Well yes, that is quite true. But, to give an example, look at the verses I gave above. They are blind, because they have not been given sight. It is like telling a blind man to explain sight. It is impossible until God gives it to them. He does not work with persuasive words of man. Not even the most clever arguments will make them understand, until they given the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

This greatly emphasizes loving our enemies, being the light of the world, etc. Why? Because most in this age are in Spiritual darkness. We once walked with them, and only by the Grace of God I am what I am. Best we pray for humbleness and a pure heart, and not get prideful and haughty.

God is also really showing me now how important remembrance is. To remember these words. Not only that, not only to be a hearer of the Word, but a doer of the Word. I have heard a lot that people may explain something, like a certain passage, or a Scriptural Truth, or even saving the world. You know what happens? They may say they agree, but then they get home and forget about these things.

I am guilty of this too. At times I'll say "I won't do this again." Then I'll do that certain thing again, despite what was said before. This really shows how powerless we are without God, that we need to cry out to Him for help, or else we fall.

[Dandelion]

Believers are afraid. Have you read the last lines in Revelation?

And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

Revelation 22:19

UR believers believe others have already altered the words. But, most Christians think we are doing so.

And, that, I believe is the crux of the matter.

That is one of the reasons we need to study our Bibles and understand just what is being said, so we can point out the discrepancies, and explain ourselves well. For the Glory of God......

D.

[marie glen]

Believers are afraid. Have you read the last lines in Revelation?

And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

Revelation 22:19

UR believers believe others have already altered the words. But, most Christians think we are doing so.

And, that, I believe is the crux of the matter.

That is one of the reasons we need to study our Bibles and understand just what is being said, so we can point out the discrepancies, and explain ourselves well. For the Glory of God......

D.

Amen! I think that's very true.. I think some folks even get very zealous in opposing UR for that reason..

[CST]

Because that would spoil the fun when everyone else eventually learns who God is, wouldn't it?  :winkgrin:

What is a great party if people aren't surprised?

:OhNo: Wow.. I like thinking of it that way..! ..Like on Judgment 'Day' it's "Surprise! It's Day Of Atonement!" :banana: ..besides, after rising from their grave, who's not going to "believe"? (Even if some for a time experience weeping or gnashing of teeth in an outer darkness..)

Potentially a lot of people. You're misunderstanding faith by using the empiricist definition. The 'prove to me you exist and I will believe!' definition. God isn't asking anyone to believe He exists for the sake of believing He exists. When  the books of the Bible was written the existence of a god or gods was taken as a no brainer. In those days those that dissented from that position were considered the mad people  who had to prove their position.

God is a specific being and is asking you to believe Him personally when He says He will saves you; that He is capable of doing so. A lot of poor people may wake up terrified on judgement day and discover that got exists. They will believe He won't save them because they didn't believe in Him doing their lifetime. Some will have trust issues and won't be able to believe Him, some will be angry and want to blame Him for everything. Some will simply continue to believe He can't or is willing to save them at all. These and no doubt more are all obstacles God will have to overcame either in this lifetime or the next. Some if the next turns out to be unnecessary it's only because He worked really hard in this one not because people suddenly see He exists and believe. Being saved isn't easy and has to do all the work because we are utterly incapable but the idea that He won't have to do more work on some people during the next life seems unlikely. Look at the state people are in now.

So why isn't UR plainer. Well arguably it is pretty plain but the clues are scattered through the Bible and there are no explicit examples which is a huge problem. Although there are no explicit examples of people going to Hell either. There's the Rich Man, of course, but in Luke he's generic. There are a lot of characters in the Bible I would expect to go to Hell forever were that true but the Bible doesn't confirm this, ever.

I often talk about when I was an ET-er but, let's be fair. I don't think I was ever an ET-er, I was just easily swayed but apologists for it because general translations seemed to support it. I often confided the possibility that 'forever' didn't really mean forever even if it had turned out that that in the text it absolutely meant forever. Even today we use the word 'forever' without meaning it literally it's not really a word we can use with any real truth because we have no experience of such a thing so we're using a word to describe something we can't imagine.

But the models used and other warnings suggested a finality to that fate of the wicked that made it hard to doubt. The effect it had was to make me hate God. What an awful being 'God' must be to do this. But I would always bat this away. I am a weak and sinful mortal as the church frequently reminds us. I must be wrong God must be right even if I couldn't understand it. What a useful trick of the church that is, to emphasise the part of the Bible that focus on our sinfulness. Stops us asking questions of how it does things, dissuades us from recognising evil when we see it.

"He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8)

God teaches us what evil is so we can recognise it and oppose it and not do it. Then when we do, do it, when we fail to oppose it, even support it He can condemn us because we have knowingly committed evil.

In conflicts like this there are three parties involved there is you, there is your 'instructor' and there is God. God is never wrong. Therefore either you are wrong in your understand of God or your instructor is presenting God wrongly. In the past I thought my instructor must be right therefore I must be wrong and reluctantly accepted ET even though my heart wasn't in it.

No more! These days I like to think I know evil when I see it and if my instructor is instructing me in evil, defending evil promoting evil they are not Christian whatever they may claim and I must find a better instructor. God is good one.

A lot of people still believe their instructor and are inclined against listening to God.

God makes UR plain but other instructors think what they teach is what God taught so won't listen even when He tells them they are wrong. So they stick with ET.

[Batty Bible Page]

Believers are afraid. Have you read the last lines in Revelation?

And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

Revelation 22:19

UR believers believe others have already altered the words. But, most Christians think we are doing so.

And, that, I believe is the crux of the matter.

That is one of the reasons we need to study our Bibles and understand just what is being said, so we can point out the discrepancies, and explain ourselves well. For the Glory of God......

D.

I know that's what has been said of that part of Revelation. But what if the admonition to change nothing pertains only to John's Revelations writings? And that is what he meant by , book.  Because of John's remark in verse 18:
I
egō

bear

witness
martyreō

to

everyone
pas

who
ho

hears
akouō

the
ho

words
logos

of

the
ho

prophecy
prophēteia

of
ho

this
houtos

book


Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

[CST]

Yes, but obviously there are people who believe it was all written by God before that and then revealed to us at the appropriate time. There is nothing in the Bible that God does not want to be in the Bible and nothing where God doesn't want it to be. However much of a challenge it was for us to assemble the Bible between ourselves the result is exactly what God intended for His purposes. Therefore the line you are quoting from the end of the Bible is intended to be understood as referring both to the Book of Revelation and the whole Bible. Not only because it comes at the end of the Bible but because it echoes earlier instruction not to make alteration to the law.

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." (Deuteronomy 4:2)

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." (Deuteronomy 12:32)

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6)

That's four examples in all on this matter admonish people who dare to change God's word. Of course, it's held as very important to preserve and protect God's word or else there's no way to know for sure what is or isn't trustworthy.

[lastpost]

I know that's what has been said of that part of Revelation. But what if the admonition to change nothing pertains only to John's Revelations writings? And that is what he meant by , book.  Because of John's remark in verse 18:
I
egō

bear

witness
martyreō

to

everyone
pas

who
ho

hears
akouō

the
ho

words
logos

of

the
ho

prophecy
prophēteia

of
ho

this
houtos

book


Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

As I see, a type of warning commonly recognised by the people of the time due to their existing scriptures and culture, in a book called Revelation, which was finally decided by a group of men in the fourth century, after much discussion and after much reasoning – using Reason implanted in man by God - to be the last book of what is, to us today, the current Bible.
 
A message written to a particular people at a particular time for a particular reason, and a message often used by many today in ways and means which cause unnecessary fear in others.

A message aimed at a certain people, namely early persecuted Christians, who had a different mind-set to those of today, who came from a background steeped in superstition, and who naturally understood their current symbolism, a people tortured and killed by the embodiment of evil, the rulers of Rome, let loose in the whole world.

A people who would understand the relationship between such symbols as the seven stars held by the Son of God - and the so-named "Divine infant" son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars; or the twenty four elders of the book of Revelation - and the twenty four choral singers who must precede Domitian wherever he went with songs of praise; or the Saviour to whom every knee shall bow - and the command of Domitian demanding to be known as "Our Master and our God" and that anyone who did not bow to him when he passed them was to be put to death.

Understanding a little of the way that the Bible has come to man today, in that man has been used by God to form the collection of sacred records infused with Spirit Power - no different to the modus operandi whereby God has always used man to forward His plans - understanding it can help remove some of the fear unnecessarily imputed into the wonderful Holy Book used by men on earth for their spiritual guidance and instruction.

As I understand it, there is no reason why God cannot use man to compile a Sacred Record. It matters little if some literal record is not wholly perfect, the reason being that God has caused the Bible to contain ever-increasing Spirit Power which speaks to the Spirit within, the inner being. It's the mortal mind that needs to hear the voice of the Spirit within, and it's God's inner meaning which can be understood by the Spirit Power in the Bible communing with the innermost self – the sense mind with its associated ego must acquiesce to the spiritual mind belonging to the child of God.

It's only the literalist who must not question this, but that does not mean that the literalist is correct in believing so; I propose that the Bible is literally the spiritual word of God rather than literally the literal word of God – and in literally being the spiritual word of God the Bible is more trustworthy than that which is considered literally the literal word of God – although it plays its part for many as today's prevalent ideas show.

When people continually battle over this and that literality as believers in the particular strain of religion to which they have aligned themselves, I would say that the enemies have drawn near and see a chance to cause harm – that is my opinion of course. I am not here to argue, I am here to learn why people think the way they do, as I believe it is vital to understand the varying mind-sets of people - helping people can only be achieved through love and understanding.

Peace.

[marie glen]

Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

  :Chinscratch: I never thought of that! :thumbsup: thanks!

[marie glen]

As I see, a type of warning commonly recognised by the people of the time due to their existing scriptures and culture, in a book called Revelation, which was finally decided by a group of men in the fourth century, after much discussion and after much reasoning – using Reason implanted in man by God - to be the last book of what is, to us today, the current Bible.
 
A message written to a particular people at a particular time for a particular reason, and a message often used by many today in ways and means which cause unnecessary fear in others.

A message aimed at a certain people, namely early persecuted Christians, who had a different mind-set to those of today, who came from a background steeped in superstition, and who naturally understood their current symbolism, a people tortured and killed by the embodiment of evil, the rulers of Rome, let loose in the whole world.

A people who would understand the relationship between such symbols as the seven stars held by the Son of God - and the so-named "Divine infant" son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars; or the twenty four elders of the book of Revelation - and the twenty four choral singers who must precede Domitian wherever he went with songs of praise; or the Saviour to whom every knee shall bow - and the command of Domitian demanding to be known as "Our Master and our God" and that anyone who did not bow to him when he passed them was to be put to death.

Understanding a little of the way that the Bible has come to man today, in that man has been used by God to form the collection of sacred records infused with Spirit Power - no different to the modus operandi whereby God has always used man to forward His plans - understanding it can help remove some of the fear unnecessarily imputed into the wonderful Holy Book used by men on earth for their spiritual guidance and instruction.

As I understand it, there is no reason why God cannot use man to compile a Sacred Record. It matters little if some literal record is not wholly perfect, the reason being that God has caused the Bible to contain ever-increasing Spirit Power which speaks to the Spirit within, the inner being. It's the mortal mind that needs to hear the voice of the Spirit within, and it's God's inner meaning which can be understood by the Spirit Power in the Bible communing with the innermost self – the sense mind with its associated ego must acquiesce to the spiritual mind belonging to the child of God.

It's only the literalist who must not question this, but that does not mean that the literalist is correct in believing so; I propose that the Bible is literally the spiritual word of God rather than literally the literal word of God – and in literally being the spiritual word of God the Bible is more trustworthy than that which is considered literally the literal word of God – although it plays its part for many as today's prevalent ideas show.

When people continually battle over this and that literality as believers in the particular strain of religion to which they have aligned themselves, I would say that the enemies have drawn near and see a chance to cause harm – that is my opinion of course. I am not here to argue, I am here to learn why people think the way they do, as I believe it is vital to understand the varying mind-sets of people - helping people can only be achieved through love and understanding.

Peace.

It amazes me that, as you say, many fear Bible prophecy or worse use it to make others fear.. Or perhaps they are warning because they understand it in fear.. I've Not been schooled by others when it comes to learning the Bible. I used to wonder if I should feel badly about that, but these days I'm most happy! It's like ppl look at God's word and the Book of Revelation, especially, I suppose, and see something akin to a huge mess.. like the underside of a great and beautiful tapestry.. But the wonderful landscape can't be seen, just the messed up back of it. Now, on this planet, many ppl suffer under oppression, if somehow they can learn that this world, being built upon sand/untruth, cannot endure. That ultimately despots will receive their just comeuppance (ruin/earthly, and as UR knows, only for a time after this short life). "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people".. and aren't all people his? Fiery consequences upon evil - evil and untruth crashing and burning is simply the culmination of this life as we presently know it / history. That evil can only fall and truth alone remain standing, which is a good thing.

King of Tyre.. King of Babylon.. and all their types.. will not endure.. But the meek shall inherit the earth and delight their selves in the abundance of peace. I think sometimes, we water down the message and it becomes something most simply cannot get their teeth into.. Give me something real. Especially were I helplessly suffering under the big thumb of some heartless thug. "Comfort ye!" Is how I think of Bible prophecy. "The lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow." (Is 11:7) Man's ways, stranglehold(s) and empires will not last! He cometh! The yoke shall be removed from off their shoulders.. And the Lord's Kingdom "will never end". Luke 1:33. "He has sent the rich, prideful and powerful away empty, and off their thrones, and has exalted the lowly, filling the hungry up with good things.."

It's sad to me bible prophecy - and also God's intent, UR & paradise - are so misunderstood, so as to be used for fear. So the well intentioned leave off some of the very best parts of the whole story! Yes, like Joel said, man's world of warring will become a dark and smoky day (surprise? not).. But the smokier, the sooner the Son of righteousness rises and shines through with a New Day.. If there is a day of the "lack of His Word" then hopefully all of His Word gets communicated while it can, to those who may find their selves living through some of those shadows of man's world and doings.

It's all good news. Those trusting in Him, have nothing to fear. Only the adversary works real hard to keep the things Jesus said, and John wrote, obscure! Of course! And thus the ppl are like sheep with no shepherd. Until that day - they realize God's word far, far surpasses man's word..
:Peace2:

[Batty Bible Page]

I know that's what has been said of that part of Revelation. But what if the admonition to change nothing pertains only to John's Revelations writings? And that is what he meant by , book.  Because of John's remark in verse 18:
I
egō

bear

witness
martyreō

to

everyone
pas

who
ho

hears
akouō

the
ho

words
logos

of

the
ho

prophecy
prophēteia

of
ho

this
houtos

book


Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

As I see, a type of warning commonly recognised by the people of the time due to their existing scriptures and culture, in a book called Revelation, which was finally decided by a group of men in the fourth century, after much discussion and after much reasoning – using Reason implanted in man by God - to be the last book of what is, to us today, the current Bible.
 
A message written to a particular people at a particular time for a particular reason, and a message often used by many today in ways and means which cause unnecessary fear in others.

A message aimed at a certain people, namely early persecuted Christians, who had a different mind-set to those of today, who came from a background steeped in superstition, and who naturally understood their current symbolism, a people tortured and killed by the embodiment of evil, the rulers of Rome, let loose in the whole world.

A people who would understand the relationship between such symbols as the seven stars held by the Son of God - and the so-named "Divine infant" son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars; or the twenty four elders of the book of Revelation - and the twenty four choral singers who must precede Domitian wherever he went with songs of praise; or the Saviour to whom every knee shall bow - and the command of Domitian demanding to be known as "Our Master and our God" and that anyone who did not bow to him when he passed them was to be put to death.

Understanding a little of the way that the Bible has come to man today, in that man has been used by God to form the collection of sacred records infused with Spirit Power - no different to the modus operandi whereby God has always used man to forward His plans - understanding it can help remove some of the fear unnecessarily imputed into the wonderful Holy Book used by men on earth for their spiritual guidance and instruction.

As I understand it, there is no reason why God cannot use man to compile a Sacred Record. It matters little if some literal record is not wholly perfect, the reason being that God has caused the Bible to contain ever-increasing Spirit Power which speaks to the Spirit within, the inner being. It's the mortal mind that needs to hear the voice of the Spirit within, and it's God's inner meaning which can be understood by the Spirit Power in the Bible communing with the innermost self – the sense mind with its associated ego must acquiesce to the spiritual mind belonging to the child of God.

It's only the literalist who must not question this, but that does not mean that the literalist is correct in believing so; I propose that the Bible is literally the spiritual word of God rather than literally the literal word of God – and in literally being the spiritual word of God the Bible is more trustworthy than that which is considered literally the literal word of God – although it plays its part for many as today's prevalent ideas show.

When people continually battle over this and that literality as believers in the particular strain of religion to which they have aligned themselves, I would say that the enemies have drawn near and see a chance to cause harm – that is my opinion of course. I am not here to argue, I am here to learn why people think the way they do, as I believe it is vital to understand the varying mind-sets of people - helping people can only be achieved through love and understanding.

Peace.

Good points.I agree in many respects.

Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

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Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And don't diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

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Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

Certainly violating Divine laws should be avoided at all costs, and diminishing the power of the Holy Bible is violating Divine laws in my opinion, but it is not diminishing anything by seeking Truth by humbly and sincerely approaching the Divine Father and asking for permitted guidance in understanding how He has brought into being the Sacred Record - the Bible - which should not be considered a violation but rather asking, seeking and knocking upon the door of Divine understanding should He deem it allowable, and doing so is His child's right in my opinion - He could always withhold what He chooses from His child, but I do not believe that He would be upset should a child of His wish to know answers, I believe that He would be pleased His child wishes to know more of His ways. Answers may not come immediately but not asking generally will not receive answers at all. Personally I would be seriously careful not to reject the Holy Spirit as I believe the regret shall be not unlike that felt by those who rejected the Saviour when He walked the earth in a Body of flesh. But that is my opinion as I understand it today.