Tentmaker Forum

This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

So how many church denominations are there in the world today?   :mshock:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM
This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

Hmm this is a good topic.

There have been some interesting posts recently and almost shedding a new light on all of this.  As UR cannot be defined as a doctrine/creed etc. it is therefor a "cult", well so say all the traditionalists.

Point is, I believe many cannot stomach the thought of ET but do not know where to seek answers or are too lazy to get into the word and seek truth for themselves.

My personal opinion is that many church goers are pew warmers and somehow have belief in regular church attendance = preserving salvation.  So sad to see many fall into the trap of the good seed sown on rocky soil.

Luckily my conversion took place essentially outside of church influence and my early bible studies, my teacher was the Holy Spirit, strangely enough, HE never once taught me about hell even when I asked Him questions about it.  In fact His answer to me was, "Now you let me worry about that, you just study."  It all turned pear-shaped when I joined a charismatic church and got exposed to "un-truths", it was not their fault but mine.

Having done the circuit of many Pentecostals, I soon came to the realisation something was wrong, all they had was the same reformed traditions mixed with tongues and a happy clappie approach to worship.  It is the mixing of new wine in old wine-skins.  God makes a move with an outpouring and instead of letting God have His way, man too soon legalize it and then it dies.  Oh the patience of God with us disobedient folk. :sigh:

Like in your other thread, the questions nag of the falling away, the great apostasy etc.

Once the veil is in place, the unveiling takes a long time unless one has a scales dropping from eyes experience, most have wrestled with this and many still wrestle.

So much nicer not having to defend the dualist nature of our Father as many have been taught.

I have always made it a habit of returning to the gospels to see what Jesus had to say when I get confused.  The problem is many accept the preacher's teaching as he is the anointed and one may not speak against the anointed one.  Hmm somehow that is also not just applicable to Pastors, the word is clear about teachers and what happens when they err and lead others from the truth.  Of the one thing I give my ex-pastor credit for, he never misquoted that scripture and was open to criticism, there again, he never spoke on hell at all.

I would say those that embrace UR are not looking for an easy gospel, rather a sensible one.  Once we realize how much rubbish we have believed in in the past, we have no choice but to examine the word for ourselves and research deeper into the word, the original Hebrew and Greek and it becomes a journey of discovery.  Most start the journey in traditional circles but when they subscribe to a bible study curriculum, the curriculum inevitably becomes their belief system, a few certificates later nicely framed et al. salvation is secured and hell well and truly entrenched in their minds.

I always wondered why we lose that first love experience, God never leaves us nor forsakes us so how is it we lose it.  We walk away from the experiential process God has in mind for each and everyone of us.  With that peace flies out of the window and we soon find ourselves burdened with our religion


How soon we forget that very jewel of scripture.

Quote"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

If you knew the character of God, and the nature of His Son, it is obvious. :)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and come unto the Knowledge of the Truth.

It doesn't get any plainer than that.

Quote from: Moshood on August 12, 2007, 10:00:24 PM
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and come unto the Knowledge of the Truth.

It doesn't get any plainer than that.

Exactly.

This dovetails with other discussions as many who embrace UR are so overcome with the goodness of God to save all that they no longer believe that there will be a separation between the sheep and the sheep.

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

It would not be a very sensible Kingdom if everyone in the Kingdom are kings and priests as many churches teach. Those who Overcome after being saved will be both called and chosen to be kings and priests unto our God. The rest will be saved and part of this Kingdom, but will not share the priesthood or the throne.

UR is one of those "things" which the Lord has concealed in the Word and those who are in the running to be part of this priesthood and government structure in the age to come must search Him out until they find this nugget among others. How can a man bless all without partiality as a priest or judge righteously as a king if they will not dig until they Overcome a doctrine like Eternal Torment.

I see the fact that the truth of UR not being obvious to all as a part of the sifting process in preparation for differing roles in the age to come.

John

Just as "The Law" aroused the sin indwelling the flesh of Israel unto judgment, so does Grace and Truth, Living Word, arouse the resistance that abides in the flesh of our brothers of mankind.  It is right that those called out by Gods Word would receive their first testing, that testing of the thieves.  We know that Satan comes immediately to steal "The Word" from the hearts wherein it is sown.  Immediately is pretty close eh?  We also know that that same "god of this world" blinds the minds and hearts of it's "victims."  Yet we cannot count the sin of unbelief against mankind.  Where then do we look to find our understandings of resistance and how it "operates?"  Yep, gotta see the real culprits who come "hand in hand" where The Word is sown.  The classic "blind leading the blind" is the thief leading it's blinded victims into the ditch.  It is these who proclaim that they have found the "narrow road" that have in fact stumbled off of same by finding the broad path that leads to the destruction of nearly ALL their fellow man.

Many who have spoken the truth of all of mankinds salvation, also perhaps first recognized this same resistance in their own flesh, and many here who "dealt with that" perhaps even recoiled in horror, once it was viewed that we too were trapped pawns in that fleshly understanding and dropped the hot potato. 

No child of God really wants to be a slave of anything but Love in righteousness.  And on that basis I will never divide with the pawns, knowing their same afflictions were and still are in many ways still in my own flesh, but will fight "for" them, knowing "who" the resistance "really is" and why "their works and workings" will not be counted "against us" as Gods offspring, mankind ALL.  And also knowing that in the seeding of that same HOPE FOR ALL MANKIND resistance is just as sure to follow as night follows day and sleep proceeds awakening. 

It, the "resistance/theft" factor that is a real but "temporary power, in "showing itself" is really then a sign that God gives to "show" the right track and Gods Light upon them in Truth does sooner or later bring their freedom when held forth in Love to the child, and judgment and resistance to the resistance.

When we see the resistor spoke from Peter's lips immediately following Divine Disclosure, we may also see "the Rock" of Truth upon which God DIVIDES every man.  Those who fall upon That Rock are indeed broken away from the power of darkness, yet that same darkness will be utterly ground to powder.

An interesting work for those called in that way.  Yet a work that is also decried and derailed by many because many do not know "who" they are battling with.  I had a man tell me not long ago, that I may have seen the "division" but that I could do nothing about it anyway.  Oh yeah?  That Light shines upon every man in this way and That Same Light works the same way everytime, cover to cover. Uplifts the child, and resists the resistors. 

The Gates of hell will not prevail against "The church" who's building YOU ARE.  But that same hell will fall upon them, as they are the purveyors of hell unto mankind and the showing of that disease is of "them."

squint

 :2c: Just my two cents, but I'd like to point out, that Truth is not a doctrine, it's a person, and that person is a Spirit. ONE aspect of that person's nature is revealed as the concept of UR, but that's all it is, ONE ASPECT, no greater than any other aspect of the same person.

It only "feels" like that initially, just like any revelation does to us, when we're in the midst of the unveiling of it to our souls. The lover of our souls reveals something and for a time, we are just so "in love" with that aspect of His unveiling that it's all we can "see". The tendency is to want to stay there in that oasis with Him forever, but He is forever moving us to the next time of refreshing that will come. We must move with the cloud or be left in that oasis until the water eventually dries up as the Source has left it......

And they can't see it, because He has not opened their spiritual eyes to see it, just like we couldn't see it, until He opened our eyes to see it. It's all about Him and His timing. He won't allow us to get ahead of Him, and He won't allow us to uncover their nakedness (those that don't see it yet) any sooner than we have the garment of His pure love to cover them back up again, lest He judge us for our sins of presumption. She is His bride, and He's tired of men exposing her nakedness and not being legally "married" to her before doing so, and thus spiritually able to be her "covering".....

I personally can't wait for the NEXT unveiling of that magnificent person  :cloud9: Blessings to all......

Well...I'm new here and feel like I walked into a room full of strange people that I'm unsure of who may or may not like me  :mblush: like walking into a church! HOWEVER, I think I AM one of you. :grin:

I just got banned from a certain Christian site this morning and have been reading thru various threads here. I got banned because...from what I gather...I was teaching and/or hinting at Universalism. I have always called myself a liberal Christian but, up until, being labeled and banned for universalism...which I had never studied....I think I may have to reconsider my "label"!

I think the answer to the OP of this thread is obvious...even moreso to universalistic thinkers. Fundamentalist Christians seem to laurd it over people that they SEE things that others don't (as if... :laughing7:) while universalists seem to understand that there is a process given biblically...NOT destinations.

The simplest way I could say it is that you have to be naked/blinded/wounded/confused even before God can rebuild you. You have to FREELY SEEK HIM. Righteousness is only attained by CHOOSING to search Him out. That, I think, is why it's hidden.

 :HeartThrob: Welcome......you're probably in the right spot.......I haven't studied it, either, but He did show me, same as...... :thumbsup:

Let me repeat the problem of why it even though it is so plain and simple, why people cannot see it. It is not some mystical reason, but it is a spiritual reason.

Let me repeat what I told to another:

There is simple and concise ways to explain Scriptures that confirm Universal Reconciliation, but that isn't the problem. The problem is the presumptions attached to the Scriptures.

Let me give an example:

If you have been taught Bee's produce an awful poison known as honey and that only certain individuals are immune to it.

It doesn't matter how much you teach that honey is a sweet substance, that is not harmful to any person. You can even eat it, and they won't believe you. You would just be one of the certain individuals who are immune to it. The more you insist on it, the more they will think you are malicious trying to poison them to death. If you do it enough, you will be killed by the mob of angry parents who don't want you killing their children with your lies about honey being safe to eat!

That is what you are up against.

We need to know the minds of the people we are trying to reach. They have been taught for their entire life that if you don't accept Jesus Christ, you are heading to an eternal torment of flames. They are taught it so repetitively, that it is fact to them. It is like me saying, arsonic is good on icecream, it makes it sweeter.

Suprisingly, they did a study on monkey's psycology. In this study there was four monkey's in a cage and an open door. Through that open door is an electric plate that mildly shocked the monkey and he would keep running back into the cage. Over time, the monkey's kept trying to escape and each time they were electricuted. In time, they removed the monkeys one by one, but replacing them with a new one. Over time, they were left with none of the original monkeys, but none of the monkey's would exit through that door. Anytime a new one tried to exit, the other three would block him, in order to protect him. Finally it came to a point where they removed the electric panel and the monkey's could have escaped at any time, none of the next generation of monkey's would exit through that door.  Ironically, the monkey's protected each other from something that wouldn't hurt them, but they had no idea what it was that could have hurt them. But try to get a monkey in the last generation to go through that door, they would riot and even harm the monkey trying to go through the door, before ever letting it go through.

So when Scripture says they behave like beasts, that is what we are fighting, the beast.

Craig,

Those were the two illustrations that I was looking for on this.  I knew they had to be out there.  Someone had to have them.  Those are two perfect illustrations on that.

---

YO! GARY A.!!: Can you squeeze these two illustrations into that new translation?  "The forgotten/lost chapters of Matthew"  ROFLOL!

Good post Craig,  :thumbsup:   

That is why telling them what it says, and using emotional appeals, do not work. You are dealing with people who are emotionally attached to their doctrine, and their doctrine makes sense. The only way you can get to them, is with your behavior. They will not think twice about condemning you of heresy, if you accuse them of being liars. They will not think twice about condemning you of heresy, if you tell them they lack love because of what they believe. Your behavior is what will bring them around. When they realize you are not insulting them, because your behavior matches your words; when they realize you are not telling them they lack love, just because they believe 98% of the world will rot in perpetual hell, because your behavior matches your words; they will say your a nice person who just happens to live in a fantasy.

That is GOOD. You want them to believe that, you want them to see that. That is what you are trying establish because they will know you are genuine with your good behavior. Because the only way you will make a difference in their life, is if you are their friend and they can talk to you. When CRISIS hits, and their emotions are going crazy, and their doctrines are not helping, you are the one they will go too. They will then see the light of the Gospel.

1 Peter 3:15-17
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

I have been teaching this from the beginning. It is so misunderstood.

There is no room for emotional appeals in when witnessing to people, your emotions are your own, and based on your perceptions. You need to have the knowledge in order to give the reason for the hope when they ask you and always give it with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscious so that those who speak evil against you will be ashamed because of your good behavior.

When the time comes, they will come to you for the answers. Some are forgetful that your behavior does not match their assumption of you, but when crisis hits, they will remember. That is why we love our enemies and bless those who persecute us. We suffer for the sake of good, so that we may be an anchor when their life goes bad.

Hi Craig,

That's pretty much where I've been since a really bad experience with Matt Slick a few years ago, that I was briefly highlighting on another thread.  The Lord didn't let me sleep for over a month reminding me of all that I'd been taught by my mentor prior to my UR days.  2Timothy 2, if I remember the chief reference correctly.  "Servant of the Lord must not be in strife..." I not only won't be in strife, but I'll always do my best to never give anyone ammo for getting into that nonsense.  Stops the flow of the anointing and renders the Word of God inoperative in one's life according to Mark 4 and 1John, which is what Satan was after to start with.

Excellent words of wisdom, Craig!

I agree 100%, but sometimes it's soooo hard not to get emotional.... :sigh:

This is something I need to work on, definitely.

And thanx cardinal for the welcome!  :happy3:

RESISTANCE of another sort is beyond any doubt involved with the proclamation of the Gospel.  This is exactly how God has devised the "system."  It automatically comes WITH RESISTANCE and that RESISTANCE should be "strived" against.

We know that it is the "god of this world" that blinds men to the message of Gods Love and that same "god" will fight to the death IN THEM.

We should know "who" we are striving against and "WHO" we are trying to "reach out to."  These are not the same and will bring entirely DIFFERENT WORKINGS in debate.  It is ONLY the devil in mankind who RESISTS the message of Gods Unequivocal Love for ALL and that working should be VEHEMENTLY resisted, and not 'LOVED.'

Many in UR do not understand this.  This is "legitimate and RIGHTEOUS strife."  And many eternal tormentists DO understand this.

Jesus understood it well when He said to Satan, "you are AN OFFENSE TO ME."  I will say no differently and I know that it is Satan in men that speak against GODS LOVE, and I have no love or pity for that "working" in men, nor others who view this work as "not kind."

squint

QuoteThat is why we love our enemies and bless those who persecute us. We suffer for the sake of good, so that we may be an anchor when their life goes bad.

Amen  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: dboutwell on August 15, 2007, 06:18:08 PM

QuoteThat is why we love our enemies and bless those who persecute us. We suffer for the sake of good, so that we may be an anchor when their life goes bad.

Amen  :HeartThrob:

1 Timothy 4:15
Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

This discussion reminds me of this quote by Max King:  "It's hard to see what you don't want to believe."

I love the smilies here!   :girlheart:

Amie

Thanks for the monkey example Craig, that helps me to face my own fears.  I'm still a Newbie and a bit afraid of the "hell" idea.  Your example gives me a good visual as to why   :Pray:

SeekerRuth

All good answers.  As Andrew Jukes has pointed out, Jesus pointed to His death and resurrection again and again and again to His disciples and they couldn't see it.  If having the Son of God right in your face GRABBING YOU by the shirt collar and telling you that He's about to croak can possibly ellude some people because of the strength of their KJV ONLY traditions (so to speak - though in that day it would have been the Septuignt, but that's for another thread), and if Christ could have been totally plain AFTER BREATHING on the disciples and saying RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT and they could still miss the call of the Gentiles, even after Gentiles outnumbered Jewish believers in their synogogues, then DUH!  Yeah, we're able to miss this precious truth of the Restoration of all to God.  Particularly with translations like the Amplified Bible replacing the "ages of ages" that they used to have in brackets with "eternity of eternities" or other similar nonsense!

The newer edition of Strong's Concordance is also deliberately engineered to try to squeeze the Universalist out of using it and viewing it favorably.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM
This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

Hi M...

Not at all....

Are we not told to compare SPIRITUAL with Spiritual...all things are spiritually discerned...

You may in your advancing years come to see Just how HIDDEN the TRUTH is....Christ is TRUTH,..HE really is HIDDEN from the carnal mindset.

MOST URs come from a christian\mainstream back Ground...its not that we dont grasp whats presented by those who still are in that Mind set.

I learnt long back...the spiritual is something you cant relate...
ive read many of your posts here M...your well scriptured , 32 eh??...now a senior....Congratulations :icon_flower:

1Cr 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


1Cr 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


1Cr 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

care to share your veiw point here Bro..

for the record...for mine, within scipture,we read of  a physical reality portraying a spiritual TRUTH...its COMPARING such Spiritual Truths which gains a Greater Understanding

just my two pennies M...Im no teacher.just here to SHARE..
Blessings Taffy

It's a funny argument when you consider how fractured and dysfunctional the organization called 'the church' is.  Obviously there are a lot of things in 'the' Bible that are not so "plain".  At least not until you are given revelation.   

 :thumbsup: Tell me anything that's plain until you're given revelation. I'm finding even what I thought was plain, was anything but....... :mshock:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

Possibly because of passages such as these?

PS 21:9 At the time of your appearing
    you will make them like a fiery furnace.
  In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up,
    and his fire will consume them.

ISA 26:11 O LORD, your hand is lifted high,
    but they do not see it.
  Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
    let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.


   HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Quote from: Enchiridion on September 19, 2007, 05:08:34 PM
PS 21:9 At the time of your appearing
    you will make them like a fiery furnace.
  In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up,
    and his fire will consume them.

Talking about Israel, when Jesus showed up on the seen, not talking about the Second Coming. That happened 33 AD.

Quote
ISA 26:11 O LORD, your hand is lifted high,
    but they do not see it.
  Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
    let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

This happened in 33 AD.

QuoteHEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The book of HEBREWS...who have an understanding of the Law, so understand the concept of how Holy the Son of God is. Speaking to the Hebrew people of how great of an error they had in judgment, and were cut off. That again happened in 33 AD. It is like if an aquaintence of mine stole $100 from his grandmother on social insurance to go out partying at night, I would say. "Men who steal from rich corporations go to jail for years; how much more deserving and severe of punishment should you get for stealing from a poor woman, who also happens to be your grandmother!" Which crime hurt the most? Corperations have insurance to cover their losses, the grandmother goes without groceries, for two weeks, stretching what she had. Though a man who stole from a corporation will go to jail for 25 years to life sometimes, but your grandmother would forgive you. If you really understood this, which one is worse punishment?

It is plain, and you are right, people have a wrong preconcieved Idea that it is talking about something that it is not.

Many make the mistake of thinking that God wrote the Bible in such a way that it could be easily understood by all. This is not the way of God as demonstrated by Jesus. He said that He spoke to the lost in parables so that they would not understand so hearing they would not hear and understanding they would not understand. But, to those who had left all to follow Him, He spoke plainly for it was given unto THEM to know the mysteries of the Kingdom.

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

1Co 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.  

God does not ignore His own admonition and cast His precious pearls before swine. He hides His truths on many levels so we can find them as nuggets as we draw near to Him to understand.

So to answer the OP question, God does not make UR plain because it is not given to them to know, but is reserved for them who love and seek Him. It is given to the disciples and not plain to just believers.

John

QuoteSo to answer the OP question, God does not make UR plain because it is not given to them to know, but is reserved for them who love and seek Him. It is given to the disciples and not plain to just believers.

Or God makes all things clear and it is freely given to all, but is only understood by them who love and seek Him. It is human nature to think of it in their own terms, and so are befuddled by them. As Isaiah 28 says, they will recieve instruction from babbling tongues, but in that day the Lord will become a beautiful crown and a glorious diadem to the remnant of His people. Same result, minus the mysticism.

Christ made one thing very plain.

Unless you believe in him, you will not see life.  But some do not believe Jesus because they can not hear him....

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Jesus Christ.


John 3: 34-36
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I would urge all to believe Christ first and foremost.

But we will believe as we are given to believe.  No amount of discussion or scripture will open the ears of the deaf.  Some are not deaf, but are as babes. 

Jesus Christ will judge accordingly at the proper time. The primary thing is to understand who the narrow gate is.  There is no salvation outside of Christ.

I definitely understand how UR'ist feel, for we desire all to come to Christ.  All MEN (his family) will come to Christ, but many people (humankind who are not of him), will not.  This is not my doing, but God's.  Still, all things are not for ourselves, but for God.


Peace & Life in Christ.

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Peacetroll,

You said:   "I definitely understand how UR'ist feel, for we desire all to come to Christ.  All MEN (his family) will come to Christ, but many people (humankind who are not of him), will not.  This is not my doing, but God's.  Still, all things are not for ourselves, but for God".

All things are of God. (Col. 1:20)  says that he will "reconcile ALL things unto himself. Whether they be in heaven or on earth".

There will come a time when ALL will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord. It is not meant for all to believe at this time.

CHB

many of you take Pauls writtings over Jesus Christ' (THE GOLD WORD).

Paul said what?  Paul says many things that contridict or confound, and he did this on purpose, for the elects sake.  If you don't believe me, believe Peter (another apostle):

2 Peter 3:15-17
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul  also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error  of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

You believe not Peter, and you sometimes appear to believe not Christ.  Why?

If you do not understand what Peter meant about Pauls writtings, here is an explicit example:

Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

One must build precept upon precept.  And Pauls writtings are not the best place to start for clarity concerning truth in scripture.  But so many UR'ist constantly resort to Paul's writting in defense of their doctrine ( I should know, I did for 25 years), refusing to beleive Christ nor Peter.

:2c:
Start with Christ.  Start with the 4 gospels. Read Peter, James, Jude anything but stay away from Pauls epistles unto you are ripe in understanding of the other apostles. 

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Pauls writtings are not for babes in Christ.

P.S. No offence intended, only to wake some of you out of slumber.

Quotemany of you take Pauls writtings over Jesus Christ' (THE GOLD WORD).

Jesus himself said:

Jhn 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


we get in to trouble when we mix what Jesus said that was not addressed to us.

mixing the blessings of "israel" or with the Jews at that time with the blessings of the church.


just because the four accounts where put in the new test dosent mean they are new test, they actually are OT

before the death of Christ.

Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


i think it very important to rightly divide the scriptures:  what was said to who and who it applies to at what time.

now im not putting down the words of Christ....OK.


peace
chuckt

Chuck.

You missed what Peter said.

I'm not trying to argue for it wastes my time and others. 

Believe as is willed.

Peace in Christ.

Quote from: Peacetroll on September 20, 2007, 08:49:13 PM
Chuck.

You missed what Peter said.

I'm not trying to argue for it wastes my time and others. 

Believe as is willed.

Peace in Christ.

i reread your post, i think i did misunderstand what you where saying, so i appologize.
chuck needs to slow down :mblush:


peace
chuck

Thanks for clarifying.  No offence taken.

Peace to you Chuck.

How you been anyhow?

Quote from: chuckt on September 20, 2007, 08:46:16 PM

Quotemany of you take Pauls writtings over Jesus Christ' (THE GOLD WORD).

Jesus himself said:

Jhn 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


we get in to trouble when we mix what Jesus said that was not addressed to us.

mixing the blessings of "israel" or with the Jews at that time with the blessings of the church.


just because the four accounts where put in the new test dosent mean they are new test, they actually are OT

before the death of Christ.

Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


i think it very important to rightly divide the scriptures:  what was said to who and who it applies to at what time.

now im not putting down the words of Christ....OK.


peace
chuckt

Chuck,

Amen, I agree. :thumbsup: Christ himself said his message was only for Israel.

(Matt. 15:24) I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He also told his disciples to "Go not into the way of the Gentiles but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

CHB

how about Balaam?

What did the apostles say concerning him (so that no one confuses my relaying of their (the apostles) message as my judging another).

I hope you will review the following...

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/A%20Singular%20Case%20Study.htm (http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/A%20Singular%20Case%20Study.htm)

Then, if you will, try to look through scripture without resorting to Paul for 3 various Universalist answers

Difficult to do.


And many of the natural branches of the time (churches), did not have Pauls writtings.  For he was sent to the gentiles (unnatural branches, that some might have hope to be 'grafted' into the everlasting body of Christ, or the Temple of God).


Think about it, if you will.

Peace in Christ.

One of my favorite stories is about a king who was told by two men that they would make him a new set of clothes. But, there was something very unusual about the clothing they would make for him; it would be invisible to everyone except the enlightened ones. Well, the king is "dressed" in his new clothes and paraded in public. Everyone is shocked, but noone will say the king is naked because they don't want to appear ignorant or stupid. But, a little boy yells out,"Why doesn't the king have any clothes on?" Suddenly, everyone realizes they have been duped, and all it took was for a little boy to reveal it to them.

I tell this story because it reminds me so much of what I was taught in church meetings. I was taught many beliefs as a child that I just accepted without questioning them. When I became an adult, I did study many of these doctrines, but, I still came to the same conclusion I had been taught it church. I had never heard of UR and knew noone who believed it. I think many people believed it, but were too afraid to speak out because of fear of man.

Also, you sit in a pew and listen to a man who has learned Greek and Hebrew and has many years of seminary training. This can be quite intimidating to people without much education in these areas. I would read that every knee will bow and tongue confess and wonder what this could possibly mean. I read that Jesus came to save all men and that all are in Adam and all are in Christ. I just ignored these scriptures because they didn't line up with my theology. But, they continued to haunt me until God gave me a revelation of his love for all men. Ever since that day, I have only doubted UR a few times, and a quick study always shows me that I have been listening to the thoughts of men and not to God.

Let's face it, many people go to church for human fellowship. If they find God there, that's allright, but they are mainly there for friendship with people. Giving that up for the truth is too hard for many people. Fortunately for myself, I discover UR after I had quit going to institutional churches. I had nothing to give up, because I had already given it up!!! PTL it's been lonely at times, but Jesus is ever with me and never leaves or forsakes me. :girlheart: It is also harder to unlearn something, then to learn it right the first time. That's why agnostics, athiests, unchurched people are the best students. They have nothing to lose because they haven't believed falsehood to start with.

PeaceTroll:

Do you really intend to overcome vast volumes of documentation and commentary in favor of Universal Salvation with a one page 'dissertation' on Balaam?

Don't get me wrong. If I believe an untruth, I would want to consider the evidence that would point out my error. However, two things come to my mind after reading your 'dissertation'.

You need to:
1) define and or describe "black darkness."
2) define "forever" and then tell me why that would be the best English translation of that Greek word.

These two things will reveal to me and the rest of us how you have come to the conclusions you have come to.

One last question... If you could be shown the error of your conclusions, would you be willing to reconsider the abandonment of 35 years of teaching and belief? That would need to be another thread, but gimme ayes or no anyways.

Believe as your led.

Peace in Christ and life.

P.S.

Eternal darkness is pretty straightforward.

And yes, I believe Peter.

2 Peter 2

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.
15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These, are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


And just as I believe the Kingdom of God is everlasting, so do I believe the second death to be.

What is a man?  There is the crux of much misunderstanding.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=642.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=642.0)


Seek and you shall find.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Nothing like a link to your own words to verify yourself eh?  :laughing7:

Quotehow about Balaam?

What did the apostles say concerning him (so that no one confuses my relaying of their (the apostles) message as my judging another).

I hope you will review the following...

http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/A%20Singular%20Case%20Study.htm (http://emmanuel.godisjesus.net/A%20Singular%20Case%20Study.htm)

Then, if you will, try to look through scripture without resorting to Paul for 3 various Universalist answers.

JESUS' own SPOKEN words state the SALVATION of ALL... (John 12:32)

That you or anyone suggests the words of PAUL to be other than containing TRUTH is a blasphemy... You have been told this before...

No one is to believe ONE part of the WORD of GOD over another, for in the end, they are derived by INSPIRATION of the Holy Spirit of GOD... the accounts of the GOSPELS and the words of PETER are no more or less inspired than those of PAUL... It ALL joins together as the expression of the PERSON of YHVH to His creation, JESUS CHRIST who is the WORD... whether He BE noted in the GOSPELS or in the writings of Paul, John, Peter, Jude, James, or John... these words are preserved and passed down in the hands of men... in and by the direction of GOD Himself...

QuoteDifficult to do.

What appears NOT difficult for YOU, is to NUMBER YOURSELF conveniently as a person which is OF GOD...  If God, as you suggest, numbers some of "humankind" to be OF HIM and some NOT... He is then become what He says in HIS WORD He is NOT (Acts 10:34/NOT written by PAUL) which is a respecter of PERSONS... For this is SO, ...IF, ...it is as YOU SAY, that He has counted some as IN HIM, and some as NOT...

This is (no offense) foolishness... What value has one lump of dirt over another? Go and grab a handful of it in one hand, and then in the other, and determine which mudpie is worth more than the other PT...

QuoteAnd many of the natural branches of the time (churches), did not have Pauls writtings.  For he was sent to the gentiles (unnatural branches, that some might have hope to be 'grafted' into the everlasting body of Christ, or the Temple of God).


Think about it, if you will.

Peace in Christ.

Even in the "unnatural branches" (which, BTW, ...ironically is a mention from PAUL's writings)... the LIFE within them, is that which CHRIST died for... "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh AWAY the sin of the WORLD" [creation] (John 1:29)... this statement is found in THE GOSPEL of JOHN... which YOU recommend...

Your selectivity and self-inclusion within that selectivity, is what causes suspicion of your view to arise in me PT...

That you claim to believe UR for 25yrs is unsubstanciated... and the writings of PETER note that GOD is not WILLING that ANY perish...  The Gospels note in many places the Salvation which is intended for ALL...

John 6:44  No man CAN come to CHRIST, except GOD draw him...
John 14:6  No man CAN come to YHVH, except by CHRIST...

This is a SPIRITUAL "catch-22"  Men can't come to a saving place, except by His call...

MEN cannot be reconciled except by the WORK of GOD, which GOD has NO RESPECT of PERSONS...

That PAULS writings are hard to be understood is a given... I witness to many the plain and simple notations of PAUL... yet they cannot see them...  You "no longer" see them, but INCLUDE yourself in the SAVED... is no more of a GOSPEL of VICTORY than those who preach ET... who also, conveniently INCLUDE THEMSELVES, condemning the others to eternal separation & torment... (Wow! really big victory there! :rolleye:)

Sorry... but your words are empty of LOVE... for LOVE never FAILS... and your words show both FAILURE or SELECTIVITY, both of which are contrary to the WORD (Job 34:19 / Rom 2:11 / Acts 10:34 / Eph 6:9/ Gal 2:6 )... FIVE TIMES this principle found its way into the Bible PT... 5 times!

SHALOM...  :icon_king:

In  ...willieH :gamer:

There's a half truth that's been taught in the Body of Christ that is a part of the problem where this is concerned.  It's the "in Christ" doctrine with regards to the blessings, benefits, and priveleges that are available to those who've already embraced His Lordship.  That's all truth and a beautiful truth that I wish that all Christian Universalists knew, as far as blessings and benefits to the firstfruits of the Way of Christ.  About the only booklet that I would recommend by Kenneth E. Hagin at this point is a tiny minibook called "In Him" that points out these aspects of the redemption of those who've already embraced the Lordship of Jesus through the means that the Lord's devised in each of our lives to bring us to that point, and it provides a system of study for tracking those ideas throughout the KJV New Testament.

However, "in Christ" should more completely be viewed as:

1. what has come from Christ, per all being created "in Him" in Colossians 1;
2. what was credited to Jesus's account in the redemptive act as far as Him baring away the sin of the world, according to 1John 2:1-2, 2Corinthians 5;
3. what was in Christ with regards to motive, purpose, directive, mission, and expectation when He went to the Cross - John 12:31-33;
4. the extent of everything and everyone that Jesus redemptively died for;
5. all that was laid upon the shoulders of Christ at His resurrection, including all that He was declared Lord of by the Father;
6. all that Christ through His Gospel and His applications of His Blood and Spirit in His High Priestly ministry is destined to be of any influence in the life of.


All came through Jesus Christ before they came through Adam.

All were in Adam when he died, except for Christ, therefore all except for Christ died in the Garden of Eden.

All were reckoned in Christ by Creation, Incarnation, and Ransom when He died in the behalf of Adam, thereby making the Creation and Adam His debters and ransomed and consequently all who belonged to Adam now belong to Christ.

As in the death of Adam all died, so also in the death of Christ all were made alive and are now being saved generation after generation and eon after eon by His life as He's acheiving His ends within all who are His debters by reason of Him being Lord of all of Creation.

The death of all in the death of Christ and the raising of all through the raising of Christ is assured to us by Jesus in Mark 16:15-16; John 3:17; 12:31-33; 17:22-23; Romans 5; 1Corinthians 15; 2Corinthians 5; Colossians 1; 1Timothy 2; 1John 2; Revelation 1:3-8; 15:3-4.

Quote from: SOtW on September 19, 2007, 06:31:42 PM

Quote from: Enchiridion on September 19, 2007, 05:08:34 PM
PS 21:9 At the time of your appearing
    you will make them like a fiery furnace.
  In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up,
    and his fire will consume them.

Talking about Israel, when Jesus showed up on the seen, not talking about the Second Coming. That happened 33 AD.

Quote
ISA 26:11 O LORD, your hand is lifted high,
    but they do not see it.
  Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
    let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

This happened in 33 AD.

QuoteHEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The book of HEBREWS...who have an understanding of the Law, so understand the concept of how Holy the Son of God is. Speaking to the Hebrew people of how great of an error they had in judgment, and were cut off. That again happened in 33 AD.

Actually, I think it's talking about encounters in every age of humans before God. It may well definitively happened in 33 A.D. at Christ's Passion, but it is working out through all history & in every life. The GodFire destroyed apostate Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The GodFire destroyed Pagan Rome and is working to destroy Apostate Papal Rome. In my life, the GodFire is destroying (slowly) all in me that is in enmity against God.

Hi Everyone,

As the Lord did with Daniel (Nebechadnezzar's dreams) and Joseph (multiple times) He gives understanding of "sacred secrets*" or if you prefer "mysteries" to those He has called and chosen. Does He do this for a purpose? Yes, to elevate His chosen (Daniel and Joseph both being types of the elect) which also glorifies Himself as His elect proclaim His power and His power alone as the source of this wisdom and understanding.

1Ch 22:12  Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

The whole bible is riddles and parables, if something appears to be crystal clear to the natural mind we can be sure there are also deeper meanings to be mined.

Eze 17:2  Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

Eze 20:49  Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

Isa 28:21  For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isa 45:3  And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

I know the following verse was quoted earlier in this thread but let us not forget that even the apostles questioned why Jesus always spoke in parables;

Mat 13:10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries (sacred secrets) of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

This is His way.

Peace to you,

RM

*Although many Bible versions render the Greek word musterion as "mystery," that is not a good translation. In fact, "mystery" is a transliteration of the word musterion, not a translation of it. "Transliteration" is when the letters of a word in one language are brought across into another language. The prefix "trans" means "across," and the Latin littera means "letter." Thus, transliteration is literally "bringing across the letters." In contrast, "translation" is bringing the meaning of a word in one language across into another language. If we are going to have the meaning of the Greek brought into English, we must translate, not transliterate.

The English word "mystery" means something that is incomprehensible, beyond understanding, unknowable. Thus it is common in religious circles to speak of things as "mysteries" because they cannot be understood. In contrast, a "secret" is something that is known by someone but unknown by others. A surprise birthday party is a "secret" to the person having the birthday, but known by those who will attend it. The Greek word musterion does not mean "mystery," it means "sacred secret," that is, a secret in the sacred or spiritual realm that must be made known by God. That musterion refers to a secret, and not to our standard meaning of "mystery," is well documented by Greek scholars.

Rotherham's uses the term sacred secrets in place of mystery/mysteries, and before you ask "What about Mystery Babylon?" They render Revelation 17:5 as;

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead a name written, a secret: Babylon the great, the Mother of the abominations of the earth.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM
"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

UR is what I classify as a secondary doctrine, as any eschatological doctrine is a secondary doctrine. God wrote the Bible to instruct the living. The Great Commission is for the living and gets a higher priority in the Bible compared to the Gospel in hell.

Quote from: james.goetz on August 08, 2008, 04:29:53 AM

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM
"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

UR is what I classify as a secondary doctrine, as any eschatological doctrine is a secondary doctrine. God wrote the Bible to instruct the living. The Great Commission is for the living and gets a higher priority in the Bible compared to the Gospel in hell.

I genuinely do agree with the exception of those cases where the ET doctrine has been taken to an extreme and has caused harm.  Then this is the necessary Penicillin.

its an interesting topic, maybe for the first christians, knowing aionon doesnt mean endless (and kolasis maybe correction) + believing in immortal soul though it is not biblical + Paul saying God is the savior of all people it might me quite plain for them.

maybe, if it had been too plain, the church might erase these verses from the bible, another interesting thought is, if there werent verses in the bible that could be interpreted as hell, the church might have put the apocrypha in the bible that obviously teach hell, such as 2. Esdras, Book of Enoch

maybe it is plain for the people that are not indoctrinated, when i first saw the comparision of revelation 21/22 and 1. corinthians 15 i thought, corinthians goes beyond the revelation

in the time of the reformation, as soon as the common people had bibles, some of the german anabaptists believed in universalism

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM
This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

The weird thing about it is.... once you do 'see' it, it is so "plain as day" that you can't refuse to see it anymore. Very much like the inability to un-ring a bell.... making you WONDER just how on earth you couldn't and didn't see it all along.  :mshock:  At least that has been my experience.  :thumbsup:

It is a wonderous thing.  It truly is amiracle of God that not everyone sees the truth of UR right away.

Only those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" will understand the truth.  And UR is the truth.

The plain reason why it is not understood is God did not want UR to be plainly understood!  He has a purpose and a master plan.

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Luke 18:34
The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

Matt 13
44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


All these scriptures are quite revealing.  God blinds us, causes us to be in unbelief, so he can have mercy on us later.  He sends a strong delusion on us, so we will believe a lie (hm, what would be a big LIE that many people believe in?)  It pleases God to use the foolishness of preaching to get his word out.  Even Jesus own disciples didn't understand until God opened their eyes.  The Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure that you don't even realize is there.

So why is it this way?  Why do we go through this life?  As near as I can tell, it is so we will learn to be good (righteous) and learn to be humble.  And there is a lot of humbling to be done  :winkgrin:

Legoman

Should have added:  Most people probably won't believe UR until Jesus returns and they are thrown into the Lake of Fire...

And to keep on topic with this board (Judgement):

9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
       in the morning my spirit longs for you.
      When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

God's judgments are the vehicle which will bring about our righteousness!

Legoman

Unfortunately the truth will never be popular. Jesus had 12 disciples and this was only a small fraction of the human population.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 08, 2008, 04:53:07 AM

Quote from: james.goetz on August 08, 2008, 04:29:53 AM

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM
"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

UR is what I classify as a secondary doctrine, as any eschatological doctrine is a secondary doctrine. God wrote the Bible to instruct the living. The Great Commission is for the living and gets a higher priority in the Bible compared to the Gospel in hell.

I genuinely do agree with the exception of those cases where the ET doctrine has been taken to an extreme and has caused harm.  Then this is the necessary Penicillin.

Yes, except the problem is that ET is often used as the eschatological crutch for everything else. Missions are particularly driven by ET in the ET'ers minds. During our pastor's four week sermon series against universalism this summer, he emphatically stated; "If hell is not eternal, then I quit...right now!" So clearly, to him eternal hell is the very foundational reason for what he does!

The ironic thing about this is, this was during the same sermon that he accused universalists of using emotional arguments, then he turned right around and pulled this and a number of other emotional arguments of his own out of his hat...

Arrgh!

Quote from: sven on January 01, 2009, 12:21:45 AM
maybe it is plain for the people that are not indoctrinated,

Surely indoctrination is part of it.
Translating isn't hard. But to keep all the tiny twists is almost impossible. Especially if you translated ancient Hebrew to modern English. Diffrent language contruct. Diffrent times. And diffrent type of society. Add to that the fact that words change. Sometimes a little. Sometimes they take the opposite meaning.
Personally I never watch English movies with Dutch subs. Lots of wordtwists can't be translated. And for movies that lean heavily on the plot that's harmful for the whole movie. Same for the Bible I think.

Quotewhen i first saw the comparision of revelation 21/22 and 1. corinthians 15 i thought, corinthians goes beyond the revelation

I think so too. It's also very much in line with teh whole UR concept.

Quote from: B_T on January 10, 2009, 12:38:06 AM
Unfortunately the truth will never be popular. Jesus had 12 disciples and this was only a small fraction of the human population.

I believe that when Jesus said to disciple the nations in Matthew 28 that it's because He fully intended to empower us to do it and because He fully intended for us to be able to get it done.  Think through your statement here about the truth will never be popular.  It presupposes either the ET mindset or the Premillenial or Amillenial (http://www.berith.org/essays/esch/esch04.html) mindsets.  Either people will never see it because God had some higher purpose in damnation than in salvation, or because people are sooo stupid that God can never get through to all of them if He gave Himself an eternity.  Or, your comment presupposes the "Jesus could come back in 10 minutes" paradigms of Premillenialism or Amillenialism (http://www.berith.org/essays/esch/esch04.html), so why bother trying to do what Jesus said in discipling the nations 'cause Jesus will sabatoge His own purpose by snatching us away from it (usually with some flavoring of "and then He'll trash and burn all of the rest forever and ever" being added to the mix) which again bottomlines in God either having some higher purpose in damnation than in salvation or humanity's beyond the reach of the nations genuinely being discipled.  Your comment was minimally nonsequitar.  Because Jesus has never gotten through to all of these stupid apes doesn't mean that He never will. :cloud9:

---

If anyone with limited computer knowledge didn't catch my computer links above, I added this link for more on amillenialism and premillenialism: http://www.berith.org/essays/esch/esch04.html (http://www.berith.org/essays/esch/esch04.html)

something came in my mind, I've read the stuff of the Indian mystic Sandhu Sudhar Singh, it were many chapters, this guy wrote about hell, even eternal torment! and yet anyway, in one chapter he wrote finally all are saved!

maybe UR isn't the most important doctrine, but to life a righteous live, if on every page of the bible would be written, all will be saved surely - maybe people wouldn't take judgment serious enough, people wouldn't life a righteous live, but i think UR is plain enough to be not refused if argumented good and biblical for it.

the teaching of eternal hell should have never become a dogma, now where it is a dogma it is important to reject this doctrine in my opinion. do you get what i want to say?

Because that would spoil the fun when everyone else eventually learns who God is, wouldn't it?  :winkgrin:

What is a great party if people aren't surprised?

Pro_25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Mat_13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mar_4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables

Luk_8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

1Ti_2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 05, 2018, 02:58:59 AM
Because that would spoil the fun when everyone else eventually learns who God is, wouldn't it?  :winkgrin:

What is a great party if people aren't surprised?

:OhNo: Wow.. I like thinking of it that way..! ..Like on Judgment 'Day' it's "Surprise! It's Day Of Atonement!" :banana: ..besides, after rising from their grave, who's not going to "believe"? (Even if some for a time experience weeping or gnashing of teeth in an outer darkness..)

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 05, 2018, 02:58:59 AM
Pro_25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

A 'cosmic' jigsaw puzzle.. life/the Word which I think a part of it is bible prophecy (the message/lesson of - that only truth can stand/endure, and God is life).

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 05, 2018, 02:58:59 AM
Mat_13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mar_4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables

Luk_8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

1Ti_2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    :thumbsup:

"This is His commandment, believe on the One He sent forth" ..."written in the Lamb's Book of Life.."

 :dsunny:Maybe a better question would be, how can an all knowing eternally benevolent creator of all that is create people he knows will become sinners? And then open the Hell he created for the first of his Angels who fell and those angels that followed that angel, for what they did in their part in the war in Heaven? And then open that Hell for people who turn out to live and die being fallible as God made them 
people?

And still be omni-benevolent? And all knowing. And say in his own words that all things are predestined by him for his glory and according to his will?

There's a passage concerning our deaths that reads, the body returns to the dust from whence it sprang and the soul to the God who gave it. There's no side road in that scripture that says, that soul that dies goes to Hell because the body in which it dwelt was considered dead while alive and sinning.

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 06, 2018, 04:32:52 AM
::dsunny: Maybe a better question would be, how can an all knowing eternally benevolent creator of all that is create people he knows will become sinners? And then open the Hell he created for the first of his Angels who fell and those angels that followed that angel, for what they did in their part in the war in Heaven? And then open that Hell for people who turn out to live and die being fallible as God made them 
people?

Exactly!

In fact, instead He sends them to Ronald McDonald, where they get fattened by Big Macs for all eternity, with an increasingly high cholesterol level.

Amen, afterlife torment by God who is love and who is all-mighty/all powerful, is simply not at all logical! But contradicts those truths which God declares in His Word.

Quote from: marc555 on August 07, 2018, 12:18:12 AM
The thing that amazes me is that you could tell et Believers this until you are blue in the face and they still wouldn't believe you... Absolutely deaf dumb and blind. You couldn't make it up! I say this in the nicest possible way I am far from perfect far far far.

Well yes, that is quite true. But, to give an example, look at the verses I gave above. They are blind, because they have not been given sight. It is like telling a blind man to explain sight. It is impossible until God gives it to them. He does not work with persuasive words of man. Not even the most clever arguments will make them understand, until they given the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

This greatly emphasizes loving our enemies, being the light of the world, etc. Why? Because most in this age are in Spiritual darkness. We once walked with them, and only by the Grace of God I am what I am. Best we pray for humbleness and a pure heart, and not get prideful and haughty.

God is also really showing me now how important remembrance is. To remember these words. Not only that, not only to be a hearer of the Word, but a doer of the Word. I have heard a lot that people may explain something, like a certain passage, or a Scriptural Truth, or even saving the world. You know what happens? They may say they agree, but then they get home and forget about these things.

I am guilty of this too. At times I'll say "I won't do this again." Then I'll do that certain thing again, despite what was said before. This really shows how powerless we are without God, that we need to cry out to Him for help, or else we fall.

Believers are afraid. Have you read the last lines in Revelation?

And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

Revelation 22:19

UR believers believe others have already altered the words. But, most Christians think we are doing so.

And, that, I believe is the crux of the matter.

That is one of the reasons we need to study our Bibles and understand just what is being said, so we can point out the discrepancies, and explain ourselves well. For the Glory of God......

D.

Quote from: Dandelion on August 07, 2018, 04:46:51 PM
Believers are afraid. Have you read the last lines in Revelation?

And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

Revelation 22:19

UR believers believe others have already altered the words. But, most Christians think we are doing so.

And, that, I believe is the crux of the matter.

That is one of the reasons we need to study our Bibles and understand just what is being said, so we can point out the discrepancies, and explain ourselves well. For the Glory of God......

D.

Amen! I think that's very true.. I think some folks even get very zealous in opposing UR for that reason..

Quote from: marie glen on August 05, 2018, 08:55:48 PM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 05, 2018, 02:58:59 AM
Because that would spoil the fun when everyone else eventually learns who God is, wouldn't it?  :winkgrin:

What is a great party if people aren't surprised?

:OhNo: Wow.. I like thinking of it that way..! ..Like on Judgment 'Day' it's "Surprise! It's Day Of Atonement!" :banana: ..besides, after rising from their grave, who's not going to "believe"? (Even if some for a time experience weeping or gnashing of teeth in an outer darkness..)

Potentially a lot of people. You're misunderstanding faith by using the empiricist definition. The 'prove to me you exist and I will believe!' definition. God isn't asking anyone to believe He exists for the sake of believing He exists. When  the books of the Bible was written the existence of a god or gods was taken as a no brainer. In those days those that dissented from that position were considered the mad people  who had to prove their position.

God is a specific being and is asking you to believe Him personally when He says He will saves you; that He is capable of doing so. A lot of poor people may wake up terrified on judgement day and discover that got exists. They will believe He won't save them because they didn't believe in Him doing their lifetime. Some will have trust issues and won't be able to believe Him, some will be angry and want to blame Him for everything. Some will simply continue to believe He can't or is willing to save them at all. These and no doubt more are all obstacles God will have to overcame either in this lifetime or the next. Some if the next turns out to be unnecessary it's only because He worked really hard in this one not because people suddenly see He exists and believe. Being saved isn't easy and has to do all the work because we are utterly incapable but the idea that He won't have to do more work on some people during the next life seems unlikely. Look at the state people are in now.

So why isn't UR plainer. Well arguably it is pretty plain but the clues are scattered through the Bible and there are no explicit examples which is a huge problem. Although there are no explicit examples of people going to Hell either. There's the Rich Man, of course, but in Luke he's generic. There are a lot of characters in the Bible I would expect to go to Hell forever were that true but the Bible doesn't confirm this, ever.

I often talk about when I was an ET-er but, let's be fair. I don't think I was ever an ET-er, I was just easily swayed but apologists for it because general translations seemed to support it. I often confided the possibility that 'forever' didn't really mean forever even if it had turned out that that in the text it absolutely meant forever. Even today we use the word 'forever' without meaning it literally it's not really a word we can use with any real truth because we have no experience of such a thing so we're using a word to describe something we can't imagine.

But the models used and other warnings suggested a finality to that fate of the wicked that made it hard to doubt. The effect it had was to make me hate God. What an awful being 'God' must be to do this. But I would always bat this away. I am a weak and sinful mortal as the church frequently reminds us. I must be wrong God must be right even if I couldn't understand it. What a useful trick of the church that is, to emphasise the part of the Bible that focus on our sinfulness. Stops us asking questions of how it does things, dissuades us from recognising evil when we see it.

"He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8)

God teaches us what evil is so we can recognise it and oppose it and not do it. Then when we do, do it, when we fail to oppose it, even support it He can condemn us because we have knowingly committed evil.

In conflicts like this there are three parties involved there is you, there is your 'instructor' and there is God. God is never wrong. Therefore either you are wrong in your understand of God or your instructor is presenting God wrongly. In the past I thought my instructor must be right therefore I must be wrong and reluctantly accepted ET even though my heart wasn't in it.

No more! These days I like to think I know evil when I see it and if my instructor is instructing me in evil, defending evil promoting evil they are not Christian whatever they may claim and I must find a better instructor. God is good one.

A lot of people still believe their instructor and are inclined against listening to God.

God makes UR plain but other instructors think what they teach is what God taught so won't listen even when He tells them they are wrong. So they stick with ET.

Quote from: Dandelion on August 07, 2018, 04:46:51 PM
Believers are afraid. Have you read the last lines in Revelation?

And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

Revelation 22:19

UR believers believe others have already altered the words. But, most Christians think we are doing so.

And, that, I believe is the crux of the matter.

That is one of the reasons we need to study our Bibles and understand just what is being said, so we can point out the discrepancies, and explain ourselves well. For the Glory of God......

D.

I know that's what has been said of that part of Revelation. But what if the admonition to change nothing pertains only to John's Revelations writings? And that is what he meant by , book.  Because of John's remark in verse 18: (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+22&version=MOUNCE)
I
egō

bear

witness
martyreō

to

everyone
pas

who
ho

hears
akouō

the
ho

words
logos

of

the
ho

prophecy
prophēteia

of
ho

this
houtos

book


Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

Yes, but obviously there are people who believe it was all written by God before that and then revealed to us at the appropriate time. There is nothing in the Bible that God does not want to be in the Bible and nothing where God doesn't want it to be. However much of a challenge it was for us to assemble the Bible between ourselves the result is exactly what God intended for His purposes. Therefore the line you are quoting from the end of the Bible is intended to be understood as referring both to the Book of Revelation and the whole Bible. Not only because it comes at the end of the Bible but because it echoes earlier instruction not to make alteration to the law.

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." (Deuteronomy 4:2)

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." (Deuteronomy 12:32)

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6)

That's four examples in all on this matter admonish people who dare to change God's word. Of course, it's held as very important to preserve and protect God's word or else there's no way to know for sure what is or isn't trustworthy.

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 11, 2018, 05:08:47 AM
I know that's what has been said of that part of Revelation. But what if the admonition to change nothing pertains only to John's Revelations writings? And that is what he meant by , book.  Because of John's remark in verse 18: (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+22&version=MOUNCE)
I
egō

bear

witness
martyreō

to

everyone
pas

who
ho

hears
akouō

the
ho

words
logos

of

the
ho

prophecy
prophēteia

of
ho

this
houtos

book


Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

As I see, a type of warning commonly recognised by the people of the time due to their existing scriptures and culture, in a book called Revelation, which was finally decided by a group of men in the fourth century, after much discussion and after much reasoning – using Reason implanted in man by God - to be the last book of what is, to us today, the current Bible.
 
A message written to a particular people at a particular time for a particular reason, and a message often used by many today in ways and means which cause unnecessary fear in others.

A message aimed at a certain people, namely early persecuted Christians, who had a different mind-set to those of today, who came from a background steeped in superstition, and who naturally understood their current symbolism, a people tortured and killed by the embodiment of evil, the rulers of Rome, let loose in the whole world.

A people who would understand the relationship between such symbols as the seven stars held by the Son of God - and the so-named "Divine infant" son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars; or the twenty four elders of the book of Revelation - and the twenty four choral singers who must precede Domitian wherever he went with songs of praise; or the Saviour to whom every knee shall bow - and the command of Domitian demanding to be known as "Our Master and our God" and that anyone who did not bow to him when he passed them was to be put to death.

Understanding a little of the way that the Bible has come to man today, in that man has been used by God to form the collection of sacred records infused with Spirit Power - no different to the modus operandi whereby God has always used man to forward His plans - understanding it can help remove some of the fear unnecessarily imputed into the wonderful Holy Book used by men on earth for their spiritual guidance and instruction.

As I understand it, there is no reason why God cannot use man to compile a Sacred Record. It matters little if some literal record is not wholly perfect, the reason being that God has caused the Bible to contain ever-increasing Spirit Power which speaks to the Spirit within, the inner being. It's the mortal mind that needs to hear the voice of the Spirit within, and it's God's inner meaning which can be understood by the Spirit Power in the Bible communing with the innermost self – the sense mind with its associated ego must acquiesce to the spiritual mind belonging to the child of God.

It's only the literalist who must not question this, but that does not mean that the literalist is correct in believing so; I propose that the Bible is literally the spiritual word of God rather than literally the literal word of God – and in literally being the spiritual word of God the Bible is more trustworthy than that which is considered literally the literal word of God – although it plays its part for many as today's prevalent ideas show.

When people continually battle over this and that literality as believers in the particular strain of religion to which they have aligned themselves, I would say that the enemies have drawn near and see a chance to cause harm – that is my opinion of course. I am not here to argue, I am here to learn why people think the way they do, as I believe it is vital to understand the varying mind-sets of people - helping people can only be achieved through love and understanding.

Peace.

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 11, 2018, 05:08:47 AM

Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

  :Chinscratch: I never thought of that! :thumbsup: thanks!

Quote from: lastpost on August 11, 2018, 02:48:29 PM

As I see, a type of warning commonly recognised by the people of the time due to their existing scriptures and culture, in a book called Revelation, which was finally decided by a group of men in the fourth century, after much discussion and after much reasoning – using Reason implanted in man by God - to be the last book of what is, to us today, the current Bible.
 
A message written to a particular people at a particular time for a particular reason, and a message often used by many today in ways and means which cause unnecessary fear in others.

A message aimed at a certain people, namely early persecuted Christians, who had a different mind-set to those of today, who came from a background steeped in superstition, and who naturally understood their current symbolism, a people tortured and killed by the embodiment of evil, the rulers of Rome, let loose in the whole world.

A people who would understand the relationship between such symbols as the seven stars held by the Son of God - and the so-named "Divine infant" son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars; or the twenty four elders of the book of Revelation - and the twenty four choral singers who must precede Domitian wherever he went with songs of praise; or the Saviour to whom every knee shall bow - and the command of Domitian demanding to be known as "Our Master and our God" and that anyone who did not bow to him when he passed them was to be put to death.

Understanding a little of the way that the Bible has come to man today, in that man has been used by God to form the collection of sacred records infused with Spirit Power - no different to the modus operandi whereby God has always used man to forward His plans - understanding it can help remove some of the fear unnecessarily imputed into the wonderful Holy Book used by men on earth for their spiritual guidance and instruction.

As I understand it, there is no reason why God cannot use man to compile a Sacred Record. It matters little if some literal record is not wholly perfect, the reason being that God has caused the Bible to contain ever-increasing Spirit Power which speaks to the Spirit within, the inner being. It's the mortal mind that needs to hear the voice of the Spirit within, and it's God's inner meaning which can be understood by the Spirit Power in the Bible communing with the innermost self – the sense mind with its associated ego must acquiesce to the spiritual mind belonging to the child of God.

It's only the literalist who must not question this, but that does not mean that the literalist is correct in believing so; I propose that the Bible is literally the spiritual word of God rather than literally the literal word of God – and in literally being the spiritual word of God the Bible is more trustworthy than that which is considered literally the literal word of God – although it plays its part for many as today's prevalent ideas show.

When people continually battle over this and that literality as believers in the particular strain of religion to which they have aligned themselves, I would say that the enemies have drawn near and see a chance to cause harm – that is my opinion of course. I am not here to argue, I am here to learn why people think the way they do, as I believe it is vital to understand the varying mind-sets of people - helping people can only be achieved through love and understanding.

Peace.

It amazes me that, as you say, many fear Bible prophecy or worse use it to make others fear.. Or perhaps they are warning because they understand it in fear.. I've Not been schooled by others when it comes to learning the Bible. I used to wonder if I should feel badly about that, but these days I'm most happy! It's like ppl look at God's word and the Book of Revelation, especially, I suppose, and see something akin to a huge mess.. like the underside of a great and beautiful tapestry.. But the wonderful landscape can't be seen, just the messed up back of it. Now, on this planet, many ppl suffer under oppression, if somehow they can learn that this world, being built upon sand/untruth, cannot endure. That ultimately despots will receive their just comeuppance (ruin/earthly, and as UR knows, only for a time after this short life). "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people".. and aren't all people his? Fiery consequences upon evil - evil and untruth crashing and burning is simply the culmination of this life as we presently know it / history. That evil can only fall and truth alone remain standing, which is a good thing.

King of Tyre.. King of Babylon.. and all their types.. will not endure.. But the meek shall inherit the earth and delight their selves in the abundance of peace. I think sometimes, we water down the message and it becomes something most simply cannot get their teeth into.. Give me something real. Especially were I helplessly suffering under the big thumb of some heartless thug. "Comfort ye!" Is how I think of Bible prophecy. "The lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow." (Is 11:7) Man's ways, stranglehold(s) and empires will not last! He cometh! The yoke shall be removed from off their shoulders.. And the Lord's Kingdom "will never end". Luke 1:33. "He has sent the rich, prideful and powerful away empty, and off their thrones, and has exalted the lowly, filling the hungry up with good things.."

It's sad to me bible prophecy - and also God's intent, UR & paradise - are so misunderstood, so as to be used for fear. So the well intentioned leave off some of the very best parts of the whole story! Yes, like Joel said, man's world of warring will become a dark and smoky day (surprise? not).. But the smokier, the sooner the Son of righteousness rises and shines through with a New Day.. If there is a day of the "lack of His Word" then hopefully all of His Word gets communicated while it can, to those who may find their selves living through some of those shadows of man's world and doings.

It's all good news. Those trusting in Him, have nothing to fear. Only the adversary works real hard to keep the things Jesus said, and John wrote, obscure! Of course! And thus the ppl are like sheep with no shepherd. Until that day - they realize God's word far, far surpasses man's word..
:Peace2:

Quote from: lastpost on August 11, 2018, 02:48:29 PM

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 11, 2018, 05:08:47 AM
I know that's what has been said of that part of Revelation. But what if the admonition to change nothing pertains only to John's Revelations writings? And that is what he meant by , book.  Because of John's remark in verse 18: (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+22&version=MOUNCE)
I
egō

bear

witness
martyreō

to

everyone
pas

who
ho

hears
akouō

the
ho

words
logos

of

the
ho

prophecy
prophēteia

of
ho

this
houtos

book


Because as I recall what was the written scriptures of what later was called the new testament wasn't written and compiled as such at the time of Apostle John's writing Revelation.

As I see, a type of warning commonly recognised by the people of the time due to their existing scriptures and culture, in a book called Revelation, which was finally decided by a group of men in the fourth century, after much discussion and after much reasoning – using Reason implanted in man by God - to be the last book of what is, to us today, the current Bible.
 
A message written to a particular people at a particular time for a particular reason, and a message often used by many today in ways and means which cause unnecessary fear in others.

A message aimed at a certain people, namely early persecuted Christians, who had a different mind-set to those of today, who came from a background steeped in superstition, and who naturally understood their current symbolism, a people tortured and killed by the embodiment of evil, the rulers of Rome, let loose in the whole world.

A people who would understand the relationship between such symbols as the seven stars held by the Son of God - and the so-named "Divine infant" son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars; or the twenty four elders of the book of Revelation - and the twenty four choral singers who must precede Domitian wherever he went with songs of praise; or the Saviour to whom every knee shall bow - and the command of Domitian demanding to be known as "Our Master and our God" and that anyone who did not bow to him when he passed them was to be put to death.

Understanding a little of the way that the Bible has come to man today, in that man has been used by God to form the collection of sacred records infused with Spirit Power - no different to the modus operandi whereby God has always used man to forward His plans - understanding it can help remove some of the fear unnecessarily imputed into the wonderful Holy Book used by men on earth for their spiritual guidance and instruction.

As I understand it, there is no reason why God cannot use man to compile a Sacred Record. It matters little if some literal record is not wholly perfect, the reason being that God has caused the Bible to contain ever-increasing Spirit Power which speaks to the Spirit within, the inner being. It's the mortal mind that needs to hear the voice of the Spirit within, and it's God's inner meaning which can be understood by the Spirit Power in the Bible communing with the innermost self – the sense mind with its associated ego must acquiesce to the spiritual mind belonging to the child of God.

It's only the literalist who must not question this, but that does not mean that the literalist is correct in believing so; I propose that the Bible is literally the spiritual word of God rather than literally the literal word of God – and in literally being the spiritual word of God the Bible is more trustworthy than that which is considered literally the literal word of God – although it plays its part for many as today's prevalent ideas show.

When people continually battle over this and that literality as believers in the particular strain of religion to which they have aligned themselves, I would say that the enemies have drawn near and see a chance to cause harm – that is my opinion of course. I am not here to argue, I am here to learn why people think the way they do, as I believe it is vital to understand the varying mind-sets of people - helping people can only be achieved through love and understanding.

Peace.

Good points.I agree in many respects.

Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 12, 2018, 05:09:35 AM
Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And don't diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

Quote from: CST on August 13, 2018, 12:53:35 PM

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 12, 2018, 05:09:35 AM
Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

Certainly violating Divine laws should be avoided at all costs, and diminishing the power of the Holy Bible is violating Divine laws in my opinion, but it is not diminishing anything by seeking Truth by humbly and sincerely approaching the Divine Father and asking for permitted guidance in understanding how He has brought into being the Sacred Record - the Bible - which should not be considered a violation but rather asking, seeking and knocking upon the door of Divine understanding should He deem it allowable, and doing so is His child's right in my opinion - He could always withhold what He chooses from His child, but I do not believe that He would be upset should a child of His wish to know answers, I believe that He would be pleased His child wishes to know more of His ways. Answers may not come immediately but not asking generally will not receive answers at all. Personally I would be seriously careful not to reject the Holy Spirit as I believe the regret shall be not unlike that felt by those who rejected the Saviour when He walked the earth in a Body of flesh. But that is my opinion as I understand it today.

Quote from: lastpost on August 13, 2018, 03:11:47 PM

Quote from: CST on August 13, 2018, 12:53:35 PM

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 12, 2018, 05:09:35 AM
Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

Certainly violating Divine laws should be avoided at all costs, and diminishing the power of the Holy Bible is violating Divine laws in my opinion, but it is not diminishing anything by seeking Truth by humbly and sincerely approaching the Divine Father and asking for permitted guidance in understanding how He has brought into being the Sacred Record - the Bible - which should not be considered a violation but rather asking, seeking and knocking upon the door of Divine understanding should He deem it allowable, and doing so is His child's right in my opinion - He could always withhold what He chooses from His child, but I do not believe that He would be upset should a child of His wish to know answers, I believe that He would be pleased His child wishes to know more of His ways. Answers may not come immediately but not asking generally will not receive answers at all. Personally I would be seriously careful not to reject the Holy Spirit as I believe the regret shall be not unlike that felt by those who rejected the Saviour when He walked the earth in a Body of flesh. But that is my opinion as I understand it today.

:girlheart: I certainly appreciate your opinion as you understand it today. Well said indeed.

the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

Quote from: darryl on August 14, 2018, 02:04:53 AM
the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

Amen! ..As a matter of fact, I think Proverbs 25:2 has come up in my reading lately at least three times now.. I keep thinking that it is overlooked that logic is a part of "logos" ... "reasoning expressed by words." (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm)) ..surely not only is logos root of the word logic, but logic itself is a part of what "logos" is.

Quote from: darryl on August 14, 2018, 02:04:53 AM
....you discover..  truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

p.s. - and it's logic that God is utterly perfect. Therefor, the end result of all this / of what He is doing, can only be the very best one possible. Surely? And God's written Word says so. It's God's Word/Logos not mans' word.. or man's word about God's Word :laughing7:

Quote from: lastpost on August 13, 2018, 03:11:47 PM

Quote from: CST on August 13, 2018, 12:53:35 PM

Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 12, 2018, 05:09:35 AM
Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

Certainly violating Divine laws should be avoided at all costs, and diminishing the power of the Holy Bible is violating Divine laws in my opinion, but it is not diminishing anything by seeking Truth by humbly and sincerely approaching the Divine Father and asking for permitted guidance in understanding how He has brought into being the Sacred Record - the Bible - which should not be considered a violation but rather asking, seeking and knocking upon the door of Divine understanding should He deem it allowable, and doing so is His child's right in my opinion - He could always withhold what He chooses from His child, but I do not believe that He would be upset should a child of His wish to know answers, I believe that He would be pleased His child wishes to know more of His ways. Answers may not come immediately but not asking generally will not receive answers at all. Personally I would be seriously careful not to reject the Holy Spirit as I believe the regret shall be not unlike that felt by those who rejected the Saviour when He walked the earth in a Body of flesh. But that is my opinion as I understand it today.

Sorry, the sentiment not to diminish the Bible (as it should have read and is now corrected) wasn't directed at you, but that was because I deleted the rest of the quote box for space. It was directed at Betty for talking about removing 'unnecessary' fear as if the warnings of the Revelation only mean anything to stupid superstitious people that came long before us and we don't need to worry about them.

The warnings of the Revelation are directed to everyone as are the other warnings in the Bible and fearing the potential consequences of failure to head those warnings wilfully or accidentally is not remotely unnecessary. Even if some of the warnings have been exaggerated in scope.

As for what you say I believe I agree with much of it. Although I don't believe there is a Divine law telling me not to diminish the Bible. It certainly isn't in the Bible which doesn't even know it's the Bible. I just think, while caution is required in making sure we understand it correctly, it needs to be respected as the only objective record we have.

Absolutely friend, you have an interesting perspective – I say 'spiritual laws', but of course that can mean different things to different people.

My personal Guide is that which is revealed to me through Christ - of Himself. He is the Living Word and in Him I see adherence to all spiritual laws to perfection – that is, a perfect Guide for a human being on this little planet called earth. What better Way to present Truth to a human than come as a Human?

As I understand it, the human race can be very noble at times, and yet I believe that it is in its infancy as far as its growth into Divinity is concerned – or shall I say as far as the Sons of God are revealed? And so, to this Race in this age, the Saviour Christ in the Man Jesus, is the perfect Redeemer for man – indeed, Divine Perfection made Man. And so I can see in His Life and Teaching, His Example and Word – I can understand, by studying Him, not only what God is like but also what is best for humans. I believe that what Jesus Christ actually demonstrates, both on the surface and deeper than a human could comprehend, is how to follow spiritual laws in accordance with the Father God. His healing and His compassion, His self-abnegation, His commitment to humanity, His encouragement to keep seeking Divine righteousness and not the world, His birth amongst very humble surroundings...well, I'll let others decide what He shows them.

Thousands upon thousands have found the Bible a wonderful help and guide – it contains spiritual riches that have provided healing, comfort and guidance for so many of God's children, and anything which brings relief to the Father's Heart is to be revered. Therefore, I find it no problem to see that diminishing the power of the collected sacred records opposes the laws of Love that our Saviour laid down for all to follow – spiritual laws.

I believe, however, that the power of the Holy Bible cannot be diminished, even if something was not a perfect literal fact or if buried scripts were yet to be discovered, say of Paul's writing for instance - the power could not be diminished because, as I understand it, the Bible is full of Spirit Power, meaning, if I may interpret it thus, that God is Spirit and that His laws urge the creation of a spiritual guide in writing for His children, and each letter, whether Hebrew, Greek or whatever, has a power that can contact the soul, right through the mind of the body – and connect with the spirit. And further, because of the sacred reverence given to the Bible by so many, the Bible does indeed become more and more spiritually powerful as time continues due to this spiritual law created by God. In this, I am glad to think, the Bible will be better understood by humanity as the centuries roll on.

As for the Bible containing God's Spirit Power, I would also say that I believe that the spiritual counterpart of the material Bible actually does have consciousness because, as I mentioned, God is Spirit and He is conscious - therefore the material Bible is maintained by a spiritual Bible which is alive and conscious in the Spirit and, as strange and as far-fetched as it may sound, it does in fact know what it is. But that is my opinion.

Peace

Quote from: marie glen on August 14, 2018, 06:32:31 AM

Quote from: darryl on August 14, 2018, 02:04:53 AM
the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

Amen! ..As a matter of fact, I think Proverbs 25:2 has come up in my reading lately at least three times now.. I keep thinking that it is overlooked that logic is a part of "logos" ... "reasoning expressed by words." (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm)) ..surely not only is logos root of the word logic, but logic itself is a part of what "logos" is.

Quote from: darryl on August 14, 2018, 02:04:53 AM
....you discover..  truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

p.s. - and it's logic that God is utterly perfect. Therefor, the end result of all this / of what He is doing, can only be the very best one possible. Surely? And God's written Word says so. It's God's Word/Logos not mans' word.. or man's word about God's Word :laughing7:

We need to use the image God gave which was of Adam and Eve:

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam and the Rib was Adam.

So from this we can understand the relationship of the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus.

God would be as Adam, the Rib (flesh) as the Spirit, and Eve as Jesus.

Quote from: lastpost on August 17, 2018, 08:00:13 PM

Absolutely friend, you have an interesting perspective – I say 'spiritual laws', but of course that can mean different things to different people.

My personal Guide is that which is revealed to me through Christ - of Himself. He is the Living Word and in Him I see adherence to all spiritual laws to perfection – that is, a perfect Guide for a human being on this little planet called earth. What better Way to present Truth to a human than come as a Human?

As I understand it, the human race can be very noble at times, and yet I believe that it is in its infancy as far as its growth into Divinity is concerned – or shall I say as far as the Sons of God are revealed? And so, to this Race in this age, the Saviour Christ in the Man Jesus, is the perfect Redeemer for man – indeed, Divine Perfection made Man. And so I can see in His Life and Teaching, His Example and Word – I can understand, by studying Him, not only what God is like but also what is best for humans. I believe that what Jesus Christ actually demonstrates, both on the surface and deeper than a human could comprehend, is how to follow spiritual laws in accordance with the Father God. His healing and His compassion, His self-abnegation, His commitment to humanity, His encouragement to keep seeking Divine righteousness and not the world, His birth amongst very humble surroundings...well, I'll let others decide what He shows them.

Thousands upon thousands have found the Bible a wonderful help and guide – it contains spiritual riches that have provided healing, comfort and guidance for so many of God's children, and anything which brings relief to the Father's Heart is to be revered. Therefore, I find it no problem to see that diminishing the power of the collected sacred records opposes the laws of Love that our Saviour laid down for all to follow – spiritual laws.

I believe, however, that the power of the Holy Bible cannot be diminished, even if something was not a perfect literal fact or if buried scripts were yet to be discovered, say of Paul's writing for instance - the power could not be diminished because, as I understand it, the Bible is full of Spirit Power, meaning, if I may interpret it thus, that God is Spirit and that His laws urge the creation of a spiritual guide in writing for His children, and each letter, whether Hebrew, Greek or whatever, has a power that can contact the soul, right through the mind of the body – and connect with the spirit. And further, because of the sacred reverence given to the Bible by so many, the Bible does indeed become more and more spiritually powerful as time continues due to this spiritual law created by God. In this, I am glad to think, the Bible will be better understood by humanity as the centuries roll on.

As for the Bible containing God's Spirit Power, I would also say that I believe that the spiritual counterpart of the material Bible actually does have consciousness because, as I mentioned, God is Spirit and He is conscious - therefore the material Bible is maintained by a spiritual Bible which is alive and conscious in the Spirit and, as strange and as far-fetched as it may sound, it does in fact know what it is. But that is my opinion.

Peace

Hmm, I think the general consensus is that the Bible is complete, even if new texts were discovered. And what happens if someone digs up a hidden texts that makes UR an unworkable premise?

Quote from: trettep on August 17, 2018, 09:30:25 PM

Quote from: marie glen on August 14, 2018, 06:32:31 AM

Quote from: darryl on August 14, 2018, 02:04:53 AM
the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

Amen! ..As a matter of fact, I think Proverbs 25:2 has come up in my reading lately at least three times now.. I keep thinking that it is overlooked that logic is a part of "logos" ... "reasoning expressed by words." (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm)) ..surely not only is logos root of the word logic, but logic itself is a part of what "logos" is.

Quote from: darryl on August 14, 2018, 02:04:53 AM
....you discover..  truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

p.s. - and it's logic that God is utterly perfect. Therefor, the end result of all this / of what He is doing, can only be the very best one possible. Surely? And God's written Word says so. It's God's Word/Logos not mans' word.. or man's word about God's Word :laughing7:

We need to use the image God gave which was of Adam and Eve:

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam and the Rib was Adam.

So from this we can understand the relationship of the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus.

God would be as Adam, the Rib (flesh) as the Spirit, and Eve as Jesus.

You're comparing Jesus to Eve, the temptress, in this equation? Jesus, the last Adam, is Eve? Comparing God to Eve like that is more than a bit tenuous, I feel.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2007, 07:49:29 AM
This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

There are few biblical themes that are plains before being read and taught by someone to us.

I think most people who have never read the Bible will only agree that there is a God who created everything and so we must obey Him.

Other matters outside these are later discovered through denominational teachings.

My wish is for more things to be written directly into the heart of humanity. My wish is that the Law of God in our hearts should be clearer.

Quote from: JBrenner on August 22, 2018, 10:24:50 PM
I think most people who have never read the Bible will only agree that there is a God who created everything and so we must obey Him.

Huh, and where do atheists fit in this equation? Do you mean 'ever read'?

Quote from: CST on August 23, 2018, 12:23:47 PM

Quote from: JBrenner on August 22, 2018, 10:24:50 PM
I think most people who have never read the Bible will only agree that there is a God who created everything and so we must obey Him.

Huh, and where do atheists fit in this equation? Do you mean 'ever read'?

Huh, and where do atheists fit in this equation?

I think that after a person completes a reading of the Bible they will have the information that the Bible teaches that God exists and wants obedience. Even if that person does not come to believe this statement as the atheists.

Do you mean 'ever read'?

Yes! Sorry! I'm still learning English!

Thanks, actually I'm not even sure that the Bible teaches that God wants obedience. That terminology suggests that God created humans to have a race of beings to impose His authority on which I don't think is the case.

He requires obedience in as much as the alternative is us eventually submitting to our tendency to sin. But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

Obedience; dutiful or submissive compliance to the commands of one in authority.

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46).

Jesus answered him, w"If anyone loves me, he will keep my word,  Jn 14:23

If you love me, keep my commandments  Jn 14:15

Jn 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.  (love God and your neighbor [Mark 12:30-31], seek justice, be faithful and live obediently before your God [Micah 6:8], care for widows and orphans and refuse to let the world corrupt you [James 1:27], believe on Jesus [Jn. 6:29])

 :thumbsup: Jabcat

:)

Quote from: CST on August 23, 2018, 06:05:47 PM
Thanks, actually I'm not even sure that the Bible teaches that God wants obedience. That terminology suggests that God created humans to have a race of beings to impose His authority on which I don't think is the case.

He requires obedience in as much as the alternative is us eventually submitting to our tendency to sin. But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Matthew 22:37-‬40 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.22.37-40.NIV

I think that this two commandments are for us as Jesus followers.

I think that a person reading the Bible at first time will agree that this is very clear and plain.

I agree with you that we don't have a tendency to sin and have to resist it.

I believe that we have to obey because this is the right thing to do, not waiting for retribution or to escape from the fire of hell. Instead of Jesus teach us this two rules because in this way we became closer to God's character and became better humans positively influencing the world around us how salt and light must be.

For the love of...

God gave Adam and his woman one rule with one consequence: Not to eat from the tree of the knowledge or good and evil or they would die. There's no obvious instruction there to keeping the myriad of laws we now have so I'm presuming that prior to eating it wouldn't even occur to them to break the others. To be honest, those taking the Bible literally have to conclude it never even occurred to them to break that rule but rather the serpent had to put it in woman's head who had to put it in her husband's head. Who knows if it would ever have occurred to either of them if God had kept the serpent away.

Of course, if you don't take the Bible literally here there was no way God could have kept the serpent away because something in man, woman or both invited it into the garden.

Quote from: JBrenner on August 24, 2018, 05:15:11 AM

Quote from: CST on August 23, 2018, 06:05:47 PM
Thanks, actually I'm not even sure that the Bible teaches that God wants obedience. That terminology suggests that God created humans to have a race of beings to impose His authority on which I don't think is the case.

He requires obedience in as much as the alternative is us eventually submitting to our tendency to sin. But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Matthew 22:37-‬40 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.22.37-40.NIV

I think that this two commandments are for us as Jesus followers.

I think that a person reading the Bible at first time will agree that this is very clear and plain.

I agree with you that we don't have a tendency to sin and have to resist it.

I believe that we have to obey because this is the right thing to do, not waiting for retribution or to escape from the fire of hell. Instead of Jesus teach us this two rules because in this way we became closer to God's character and became better humans positively influencing the world around us how salt and light must be.

:iagree:

Quote from: CST on August 24, 2018, 01:15:11 PM
Who knows if it would ever have occurred to either of them if God had kept the serpent away.

They wouldn't have known good and evil, and therefore wouldn't have that first step to being made in His image, and being as God.

Genesis 3
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

22And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

This is actually the first commandment:

Genesis 1
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

This is why they broke His commandments:

Romans 8
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

They were carnally minded! If they were otherwise, then why did they break His commandments and His Law?

The Serpent was there because God decided for it to be there. They ate because He wanted them to, and He put it right in the center of them. Is God supposed to be stupid or something? Did these things happen and then God said "Oh no! How could this happen! If only I was looking!"

No. He knows exactly what He is doing. If there was a wiser and better way of doing things, than I think that would be the way things would be.

<Sigh> I don't think you're entirely getting my point here.

Then, if you do not think people understand what you are saying, then please explain it. Even if you need to, just list a couple verses or passages, and maybe then we can know more where you are thinking.

1 Corinthians 14
19but in an assembly I wish to speak five words through my understanding, that others also I may instruct, rather than myriads of words in an unknown tongue.
20Brethren, become not children in the understanding, but in the evil be ye babes, and in the understanding become ye perfect

Yeah, I didn't get it either.

God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

I was taught long, long ago that each of us would have sinned, if we had been the first people. We want our will to prevail, at the very least, some of the time. We must want His will.

Revelation 3:

15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

D.

Quote from: CST on August 23, 2018, 06:05:47 PM
But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

think that's very true.. How Paul wrote the law is a tutor until Christ.. and is for the lawless.. (both in Galatians, I think..)

Jesus said New commandment and John wrote it in his letters.. And of course Paul said love is the fulfilling of the law.. love never fails.. love works no ill..

A person born again hopefully doesn't need the reminder, today i will not fraud, I will not murder.. Of course that is all summed up in Love works no ill.. Not that any of us are yet perfected.. Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 25, 2018, 03:50:48 AM

Quote from: CST on August 24, 2018, 01:15:11 PM
Who knows if it would ever have occurred to either of them if God had kept the serpent away.

They wouldn't have known good and evil, and therefore wouldn't have that first step to being made in His image, and being as God.

Genesis 3
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

22And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

This is actually the first commandment:

Genesis 1
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

This is why they broke His commandments:

Romans 8
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

They were carnally minded! If they were otherwise, then why did they break His commandments and His Law?

The Serpent was there because God decided for it to be there. They ate because He wanted them to, and He put it right in the center of them. Is God supposed to be stupid or something? Did these things happen and then God said "Oh no! How could this happen! If only I was looking!"

No. He knows exactly what He is doing. If there was a wiser and better way of doing things, than I think that would be the way things would be.

I totally agree, He engineered things so the adversary was very able to pull his stunt.. I wonder is Adam and Eve were carnal - which I think of as having to do with the nature as in character, not as some have thought, the gnostics, I believe, and the Mormons(?) that the fall had to do with being spiritual and then they fell into the physical, which I don't think agrees very well with Genesis. But it's confusing as flesh, does sometimes refer to the actual flesh or body, but also (sarks? the Greek) refers to the nature or character of a person which does things apart from relying on God's Spirit (even if it seems 'good' or even serves good) but is self willed. From that part of  person not born again or of the Spirit.

About 20 years ago, about in the middle of my walk with the Lord (now that I think about it) our son asked me two questions, which I'm sure I've mentioned here before, but hopefully won't be boring. I was a pretty contented and a solid believer before this, but his questions challenged me, because I really was not very satisfied with my answers. So I prayed for better answers. (And when this boy was a baby one day I sat at my mom in law's oak dining room table and prayed over 10 questions about bible prophecy. Now that I'm thinking about it. A little reflective today..)

But when He was about 16, he asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

Of course, short answer is, we aren't an ant farm! I think of that as the whole 'problem'!

How did things get so bad after a while, with creation, that God intervened with a flood and started over? Then said He'd never do so again.. Which I take to mean He's letting things - for the most part - run their course. I mean why endow rational and reasoning ability and then not let those thinking creatures actually follow their own reasoning? I.e., and then not allow them to actually make any choices or decisions. Which obviously both Eve and Adam were able to make the decision to listen to the serpent who was, after all, contradicting their creator.

(Does Genesis say how long after creation, the serpent did his beguiling? Note: ever noticed the serpent guise of the adversary in Revelation? Where the dragon and serpent are interchangeable? chapter 12.)

Uh, oh.. gotta run..

Quote from: Dandelion on August 26, 2018, 06:03:12 AM
God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

Quote from: marie glen on August 28, 2018, 02:13:18 AM
Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

I think it is a bit more than just surrendering ourselves to Him, but ourselves dying, and Christ living in us...

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2  That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22  ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24  and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
Eph 4:25  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another

Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Ti 1:7  for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind


1Co 15:10  and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that is towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me 

Speaking of Genesis, you know when Adam was going to eat the fruit with Eve? Isn't this a shadow of Christ laying down His life, lowering himself and a sacrifice for us?

Quote from: marie glen on August 28, 2018, 02:13:18 AM
But when He was about 16

That part is new  :laughing7:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 03:34:13 AM

Quote from: Dandelion on August 26, 2018, 06:03:12 AM
God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

Quote from: marie glen on August 28, 2018, 02:13:18 AM
Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

I think it is a bit more than just surrendering ourselves to Him, but ourselves dying, and Christ living in us...

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2  That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22  ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24  and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
Eph 4:25  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another

Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Ti 1:7  for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind


1Co 15:10  and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that is towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Sorry.. but said son and wife were here with dinner! :gsmile:

"Why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? ..and isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" I seriously wanted much better answers to those questions.. and what they did mostly, was show to me my lack of understanding. It was like a big hole. :dontknow: :Chinscratch: I can't think of any other way to describe it, a big black hole in my understanding and perception. Darkness! :faint: I hadn't thought of it quite like that before..

I don't think anyone i've mentioned it to, believes me (and that's okay), but the answers came back to me like a series of 'bams' so to speak.. I mean, they just came. They were there. They were truth. And I knew it. (Some Native Americans, I've heard have called the Creator, or whom they call the Great Spirit, "Grandfather". I can understand that, grandfather's are gracious. "Undeserved favor" even to foolish children! Which we all are.)

The answers knocked my socks off. There's no way they originated in me. That was and is my thinking. I suppose it's too simple for some ppl.  :cloud9: but I don't think I've had a truly 'bad' day since.. not really.. and you know, life is still life. Lots of people hurting.. dying.. losing loved ones.. even drama every once in a while.. [Wouldn't it be great if you could just tell people, believe in God and have a sense of humor, and life will be awesome! So much despair in the world.. the young people being educated, some of them, into despair/unbelief..]

When truth is so beautifully simple.. (or so I believe! Of course there's plenty of complicated things involved! To say the least! :laughing7: )

Here's what I found out that day, that God Himself is life. And Perfection. Before any act of creation He could, of course, see all possibilities 'stretched out in front of His sight like a floating blanket'. :dontknow: That was the imagery that it came as.) And He has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the best of all possibilities.

When He endowed thinking ability, to angel and man, a whole new world (tree) of possibilities 'came about' (I've since learned this is an abyss/bottomless pit of possibility (rev9). With thinking ability comes choice / the ability to make choices. And since God can only be honest, there was that tree in the very midst of the garden.

Unfortunately, with rational creatures, someone sooner or later, is going to think say..? do we really have to do all things God's way..? And what happens once one chooses anything in thought, word or deed, that differs from what (perfect) God chooses? (Surely?) They become imperfect, the opposite of Life(/God/Perfection). And hence came death and all suffer.

So the remedy was "built in from the beginning/foundation".
:Chinscratch: Somewhere in this, but I can't remember exactly where, was the new idea of Judgment 'Day' being an age.. one of a great review of all history.. as to what went wrong in all ages.. and some what went right.. acts of bravery and nobility on behalf of others.. (maybe its getting underway won't be all darkness..)

True from untrue engraved upon every heart, and great day of review (and Atonement / surprise!) hammering home the lesson.. the memory of imperfection/wandering from Him, being tribulation and apocalypse will forever rise up in our consciousness like smoke rising forever and ever.. the smoke of apocalypse/fiery 'judgment' (results/consequences) rising forever.

Because God is life, He lives through, suffers, and experiences all sufferings and indignations, etc, which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not creating an ant farm! But His own family.. of many beautiful branches.. and an un-breakable paradise perfection. Unbreakable because all will fully understand good from evil / life from death,nonlife.

I guess I haven't told this story for a while. Can you imagine this whole neatly packed - at the time - paragraph, ended with a question! (To me.) No I still cannot imagine! The question came like this - "Why did God wait so very long, and only create man and woman and the universe? Not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought had occurred, but until it had ripened into outright trickery and sedition?! (Didn't He know what would happen?! Of course He did! 'Waited a long time', because surely, when there was only Father and Son and His Spirit/vitality, and angels, surely there wasn't that much to go astray about?" Well, the answer came right after it, which was real good, because I, of course hadn't a clue! "faint"

.."so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson, all together, at once. Lest one wander away now.. another later.. another later.. and still another.. later... taking virtually.. forever.. An unavoidable lesson, if there's to be thinking ability.

The 'great day of review' was emphasized to me as especially hammering home the lesson/truth once again upon the hearts, minds, and psyches of those of us who come to the faith during this life time.. :dunno2: But not that it wouldn't also do the same for those who (imo) come to belief upon Judgment 'Day'. :Chinscratch:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 03:34:13 AM

Quote from: Dandelion on August 26, 2018, 06:03:12 AM
God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

Quote from: marie glen on August 28, 2018, 02:13:18 AM
Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

I think it is a bit more than just surrendering ourselves to Him, but ourselves dying, and Christ living in us...

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2  That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22  ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24  and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
Eph 4:25  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another

Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Ti 1:7  for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind


1Co 15:10  and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that is towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

To me, surrender and dying to oneself is basically the same. We must transform into a person who emulates Jesus, so self must die or surrender, so that Jesus can be all we encompass. But, we are still our own selves, in many ways, but we have shed the flesh for the Spirit of God. Each of us, like a prism, reflecting Jesus in our own, unique way.


D.

Ah yes, Dandelion, was thinking that too.

Imagine everyone without all this carnality and fleshly mindedness, but with the mind of Christ, and perfectly wanting and doing the will of God. That is how I imagine His/Him being all in all will be. Yet, much more than that...

as I mentioned with that Increase thread.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 25, 2018, 07:36:03 PM
Then, if you do not think people understand what you are saying, then please explain it. Even if you need to, just list a couple verses or passages, and maybe then we can know more where you are thinking.

1 Corinthians 14
19but in an assembly I wish to speak five words through my understanding, that others also I may instruct, rather than myriads of words in an unknown tongue.
20Brethren, become not children in the understanding, but in the evil be ye babes, and in the understanding become ye perfect

When I gave my answer I wasn't talking to you. When you misrepresented me I felt the need to state it so the misrepresentation did not stand. Last time I got into debate with you it ended in you suggesting that you knew your Bible better than me and Jabcat had to step in. I don't get into discussion with people like that because the presumption they know scripture better than I do is an insurmountable barrier to progress and an insult to the opposite party. So I won't get into another discussion with you which is why I'm not explaining my position. It helps preserve peace on the site.   

Well, that is your call then.

I wouldn't even call last time a debate, or even this one. More of a humbling experience on my part, but I don't remember saying that I knew the Bible better. That was my attitude before, so I apologize. I was certainly not angry, but may have appeared arrogant.

My point right now is, whatever things you may have learned from universities and whatnot you don't seem to question, and whenever someone tries to address that(I did that the wrong way before) You seem to blame everyone else, and state how they are wrong, without discerning what you "learned" in the past.

I certainly don't know Scripture better than anyone else, but by the Grace of God, there is not as much scales when it comes to reading Scripture. His Spirit should be our teacher and comforter, and will lead us in all things. Even if that includes another person.

Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. 

Eph 4:1  Call upon you, then, do I—the prisoner of the Lord—to walk worthily of the calling with which ye were called,
Eph 4:2  with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love,
Eph 4:3  being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
Eph 4:7  and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ

Quote from: Dandelion on August 28, 2018, 05:33:10 AM

... Each of us, like a prism, reflecting Jesus in our own, unique way.


D.

I love :HeartThrob: that! :cloud9: :cloud9:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 09:27:16 PM

Imagine everyone without all this carnality and fleshly mindedness, but with the mind of Christ, and perfectly wanting and doing the will of God. That is how I imagine (His) being all in all will be. Yet, much more than that..

:cloud9: :cloud9:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 06:39:33 PM
Well, that is your call then.

I wouldn't even call last time a debate, or even this one. More of a humbling experience on my part, but I don't remember saying that I knew the Bible better. That was my attitude before, so I apologize. I was certainly not angry, but may have appeared arrogant.

:) If that's true then I'm pleased and can talk to you again. And, yes, you did appear arrogant. You were trying not to to be that, to be just made what you said seem all the more condescending. I still don't know how I'm supposed to read the last line of yours otherwise although there may be a way. Many of us have that problem of not being able to see alternative readings of things.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 06:39:33 PMMy point right now is, whatever things you may have learned from universities and whatnot you don't seem to question, and whenever someone tries to address that(I did that the wrong way before) You seem to blame everyone else, and state how they are wrong, without discerning what you "learned" in the past.

And you immediately seem to be in danger of going to that bad place again although I think you may be talking generally hear but the word 'you' makes it seem like you're talking specifically to me. I've never been to university I've learned nothing there. I went to church when I was older but was a child and found children's television far more interesting. I stayed at home as soon as was old enough to be left behind.

I went back when i was older sometimes and felt when I did did I received relevant sermons, these days I feel like God doesn't want me there.

Therefore much of my theology has come from the Bible and later study bibles and commentaries which I never entirely trust knowing I am UR and they will be defending the false doctrine of ET.

I'm not entirely sure what parts of my doctrine come from where but I usually don't struggle to find Bible passages to support what I believe and understand why the church has believed the things they agree on for so long.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 06:39:33 PMI certainly don't know Scripture better than anyone else, but by the Grace of God, there is not as much scales when it comes to reading Scripture. His Spirit should be our teacher and comforter, and will lead us in all things. Even if that includes another person.

Is that, if God is gracious there will be less scales when I read scripture or, God has been gracious to me, there are less scales for me (compared to others) when I read scripture? Which it is makes a big difference to whether I feel we can talk.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 28, 2018, 06:39:33 PMGal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Amen

QuoteWhich it is makes a big difference to whether I feel we can talk.

Php 2:1  If, then, any exhortation is in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 
Php 2:2  fulfil ye my joy, that ye may mind the same thing—having the same love—of one soul—minding the one thing, 
Php 2:3  nothing in rivalry or vain-glory, but in humility of mind one another counting more excellent than yourselves— 
Php 2:4  each not to your own look ye, but each also to the things of others. 

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 
Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35  So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. 

Mar 11:25  And whenever ye may stand praying, forgive, if ye have anything against any one, that your Father also who is in the heavens may forgive you your trespasses; 
Mar 11:26  and, if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your trespasses.

QuoteIs that, if God is gracious there will be less scales when I read scripture or, God has been gracious to me, there are less scales for me (compared to others) when I read scripture?

I am just repeating what Paul states...

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 

Php 2:13  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Total KJV occurrences: 156

QuoteI still don't know how I'm supposed to read the last line of yours otherwise although there may be a way. Many of us have that problem of not being able to see alternative readings of things.

Maybe some glasses will help :laugh:

I could think of a bunch of ways to read something. I may even be able to understand, with whatever I have been given, to know why they read a verse a certain way.

That does not make them right though.

QuoteAnd you immediately seem to be in danger of going to that bad place again

Hell? The garbage dump? Walmart?

QuoteYou were trying not to to be that, to be just made what you said seem all the more condescending.

We all have our own fiery trials. And sins familiar to us, with trials sent to us building us up in certain ways. I have things I struggle with, and so do you.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 
1Jn 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 
1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 
1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 

QuoteSorry.. but said son and wife were here with dinner! :gsmile:

Wait, are you a man? Or are you married to a women?  :Chinscratch:

QuoteWouldn't it be great if you could just tell people, believe in God and have a sense of humor, and life will be awesome!

Well, God does have a sense of humor. We just have to look in the mirror!

Quote(I've since learned this is an abyss/bottomless pit of possibility (rev9)

Romans 11
33O depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

QuoteI don't think anyone i've mentioned it to, believes me

I believe you.

Quote"so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson, all together, at once. Lest one wander away now.. another later.. another later.. and still another.. later... taking virtually.. forever.. An unavoidable lesson, if there's to be thinking ability.

A humbling experience too...

2 Corinthians 3
15but till to-day, when Moses is read, a vail upon their heart doth lie,
16and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away.
17And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty;
18and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 29, 2018, 08:03:03 PM

QuoteWhich it is makes a big difference to whether I feel we can talk.

Php 2:1  If, then, any exhortation is in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Php 2:2  fulfil ye my joy, that ye may mind the same thing—having the same love—of one soul—minding the one thing,
Php 2:3  nothing in rivalry or vain-glory, but in humility of mind one another counting more excellent than yourselves—
Php 2:4  each not to your own look ye, but each also to the things of others.

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35  So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mar 11:25  And whenever ye may stand praying, forgive, if ye have anything against any one, that your Father also who is in the heavens may forgive you your trespasses;
Mar 11:26  and, if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your trespasses.

QuoteIs that, if God is gracious there will be less scales when I read scripture or, God has been gracious to me, there are less scales for me (compared to others) when I read scripture?

I am just repeating what Paul states...

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Php 2:13  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Total KJV occurrences: 156

QuoteI still don't know how I'm supposed to read the last line of yours otherwise although there may be a way. Many of us have that problem of not being able to see alternative readings of things.

Maybe some glasses will help :laugh:

I could think of a bunch of ways to read something. I may even be able to understand, with whatever I have been given, to know why they read a verse a certain way.

That does not make them right though.

QuoteAnd you immediately seem to be in danger of going to that bad place again

Hell? The garbage dump? Walmart?

QuoteYou were trying not to to be that, to be just made what you said seem all the more condescending.

We all have our own fiery trials. And sins familiar to us, with trials sent to us building us up in certain ways. I have things I struggle with, and so do you.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This isn't about me forgiving you this is about whether or not I think it'll be constructive to talk to you or if we'll talking at the wall. Which admittedly may be inevitable due to faults on both sides or, at this stage, even just mine.

Hmm, any chance Paul's supposed to be saying 'God YHWH' there? It could change the meaning of what he's saying somewhat.

Sorry, I wasn't entirely comfortable with requoting this but:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 05, 2018, 04:56:33 PMI do pray for you, that these things will be revealed to you. No, I am not trying to sound pious or self righteous or self boasting. I really do mean that.

When saying you are not trying to sound pious or self righteous or self boasting and then 'I really do mean that' just makes you sound more of the above. Really meaning it makes it worse. I don't don't how to read that with the implication that you pray that I come to your 'right' way of thinking and reading the Bible from my 'wrong' way of doing so. Really meaning it just means you genuinely hope I will come to your 'right' way of thinking.

The bad place is that place where you think your insight is necessarily superior to my insight.